Will anyone be buying FM21?

[Lexis]

I felt this year's new features were an absolute joke. What was announced as major features this year are, at the very best, minor features, that should not have made it in the headlines. To me it was an absolute joke. How people found the new features satisfactory is beyond me.

I waited for the full version to check some feedback on it and see how it looked. 

Waited for the january patch, was disappointed with how it generally looked and feel of the ME (checked youtube and general feedback on the forum).

No intentions of buying FM20.

In regards to FM21, I'll wait to see what new features they announce. If the new features are decent at the very least, I may buy the product from the beginning. If not, I'll just wait for general feedback / third patch before I buy, if it looks decent. 

 

[rinso]

fm21 hasn't even been announced yet. nobody  knows if there will be one. nobody knows how 2020 will finish. 

[glenjamin]

On 13/05/2020 at 11:40, evertonman said:

With lots of ME bugs not being fixed in FM20 as S.I have announced they’re not doing anymore updates this version will anyone be buying FM21? 

I personally think it’s scandalous that they can leave a knowingly buggy game broken and then expect us all to pay for it again next year in hope that they’ve finally fixed what we paid for last year.

I feel they’re exploiting the loyalty of their customers as it is a game a lot of us love.

When people raise the issues of the game not being good enough in its current state the forums threads seem to get closed for replies or moved into the update feedback thread; which in my opinion is just brushing the customer complaints under the carpet. I imagine the same will happen to this thread.

Interested to hear other people’s thoughts as I’m personally gutted that the game in my eyes isn’t worth playing.

Any chance you could add a poll to this?

[alanschu14]

On 14/05/2020 at 08:51, JordanMillward_1 said:

No, they just reduced the age you need to be to be allowed to play to 16 rather than 17. Still, it's a nice change.

I remember in my Kaiserslautern game when a youth player of mine was such a phenom he was easily my best player on the entire roster, including first team!

He set records for youngest player to score a goal in both the Bundesliga and DFK-Pokal Cup as he scored in his debuts for both once he was old enough to play. After a few seasons Real Madrid came in with such a monstrous bid it broke the transfer system. I always save on big bids because I find I'm not very good at negotiating and can easily see things get withdrawn, and I actually could not even negotiate the fee to be *cheaper* as they would still walk away haha. I think it was about €200m or so. Was absolutely ridiculous and I turned all that money into a Champions League capable team. Very fun.

[Santa Claus]

On 16/05/2020 at 23:18, zakbrown96 said:

Hate to be the be the bearer of Bad news but it’s impossible to have a “bug free” game no matter what you do, another bug would happen it’s like dominos effect, I personally think £30 to £40 is incredible value considering the hours of Fm we all mostly play, it’s a bug it’s self Fm a great one indeed! That said always room  for improvements but every year they always do exactly that! We are also lucky that the game makers are very much listening to what is said in terms of anything in the game, not many game developers do that!  

I agree but in FM some pretty serious bugs take 2 or 3 releases to get fixed, and during that time people pay £100+ for new moustache styles and tunnel interview questions. Obviously I'm exaggerating it a bit but my point is that SI needs to adopt Paradox model - release full game every 3 or 4 years, and during one release's lifecycle fix all major bugs, and of course release new database every September and February, and charge it 10 or 15 pounds. That way in like two years we would have pretty polished game and still being able to play it bug free for another year or two.

[Garrlor]

38 minutes ago, Santa Claus said:

I agree but in FM some pretty serious bugs take 2 or 3 releases to get fixed, and during that time people pay £100+ for new moustache styles and tunnel interview questions. Obviously I'm exaggerating it a bit but my point is that SI needs to adopt Paradox model - release full game every 3 or 4 years, and during one release's lifecycle fix all major bugs, and of course release new database every September and February, and charge it 10 or 15 pounds. That way in like two years we would have pretty polished game and still being able to play it bug free for another year or two.

I discussed this with Herne during FM19, it just isn't the model they operate on. It's a business decision at the end of the day.

I have played the FM20 demo. I loved some of the new features outside of the ME, but it is what happens on match day that matters the most. The way the game uses reputation to calculate how a team plays against you just crushes the enjoyment. It started in FM19 and just carried on into the next game. Trying to break down teams that sit so deep they are in thier own 6 yard box in a wall is not fun. Not least when it is game after game after game because you won the league last season. I pre ordered FM19 after reading about the game, with people saying it was the best ME they had ever played, just a little heavy on crossing. Something got changed and it became dull as dishwater. Every little thing has a knock on effect, but the only way we are ever going to see a change is to vote with our wallets. I will definately not be buying the game at release, I may be tempted come March 22, but that relys on some huge issues getting solved.

[zyfon5]

46 minutes ago, Santa Claus said:

I agree but in FM some pretty serious bugs take 2 or 3 releases to get fixed, and during that time people pay £100+ for new moustache styles and tunnel interview questions. Obviously I'm exaggerating it a bit but my point is that SI needs to adopt Paradox model - release full game every 3 or 4 years, and during one release's lifecycle fix all major bugs, and of course release new database every September and February, and charge it 10 or 15 pounds. That way in like two years we would have pretty polished game and still being able to play it bug free for another year or two.

Doubt they can realistically do it that way though. it will severely reduce their revenue stream and for a game developer like SI that solely relies on one game to sell it could be very unprofitable. Paradox can do it since they don't just rely on one game to make up their sales. Again your suggestion is good but highly unrealistic from SI perspective.

[GOODNAME]

No way.

I will wait until the Jan patch is out and will test the ME

 

[Maw74]

My thoughts and answer right now is no, is that no a definite no? I doubt it given my history lol, how long I play the new version depends though.

I have the same thoughts everytime though, FM10 was my first real FM, I did dabble with FM2005 a bit but at the time I didn't have a good enough PC to run it very well and I was more in to console games, anyway FM10 was a massive hit for me, just so much better than any other football manager game I had ever played.

Not going to say FM10 was perfect but it was great for me, I purchased 12,13,14 but only really flirted with those as 10 still occupied the majority of my playing time, only really moved on when FMC15 came out, that became my new love and the same sort of thing happened 16 & 17 never really grabbed me away from 15, so at this time I was into the FMC/FMT version of the game, 19 got me away briefly but ended up going back to 15, I decided I wanted to do a game on Full Fat though and FM18 was my choice, just started my 10th season on that save, I still decided to buy 20 and have a couple of saves but yeah can't say I am loving it, I am currently more interested in playing 18.

So yeah basically that is what I have been doing, I give the new version a chance to impress me and make me move on, if it doesn't then I just go back/stick with a save I have been playing, even now I have a temptation to go back to FM10 & FMC15 anyway.

This is probably the wrong way to look a things.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Maw74

[Garrlor]

22 minutes ago, Maw74 said:

 

This is probably the wrong way to look a things.

 

Not at all. I still play 18, I love that I can understand my tactics and how my role and duty affects how my players play within the framework I set. I cant get on with the tactics creator in 19 or 20 in the way I can with 18. Go and read Ozils benfica thread in the tactics forum if you fancy some inspiration.

If it's a version that works for you, play it.

[Smurf]

Haven't bought a title since 2014. I was gifted 2015. But I never really got into them. Still playing FM12.

I don't know if I'll ever buy the game again. It certainly hasn't gone the way I feel it should have gone. 

Year on year there's negative feedback about all the press conferences and questions and repeat of it all - yet they added even more press conferences. 

The lack of Football Managing within the game is the main reason. Sure attending press conferences is part of their contractual obligations - but so is attending training and training players, depending on tracksuit vs suit manager etc. 

Never felt the addition of creating an avatar for the game ever held any water, felt it was a terrible addition, poorly added to the game, and I don't remember an option to skip and go with a generic version, could be wrong on that. 

Always felt the UI continually got worse per version since FM12. There was one time in FM13 the UI around the Match Selection was changed and made it impossible for me to select the team like I had since Championship Manager days, like going back to the original FM. 

When I brought it up with SI that I didn't like the update and asked could it be reverted to the original way - I was told it wasn't going to change and it was tough luck.

That's when I decided I wasn't going to buy the game anymore and went back to FM12 where it worked best for me.

 

 

[Nick_CB]

No. In this version I was very frustrated and disappointed. Since when I bought the game, in December, I was collaborating in the area of bugs. All were answered that the bug was being worked on. The game arrived in the final version and the same bugs remained.

Sorry for my English. I am a Brazilian fan who paid $ 150 (my currency) to purchase a game that is unfortunately not active for my country.
PS: the minimum wage in Brazil is $ 1039 P/M. That is, I did not pay little.

[RHKC]

I'll more than likely buy it. For the price and the hours you get out of it, I think it's worth it.

 

It's definitely going the wrong way though. The game has been going downhill pretty quickly over the last few years... and as long as mugs like me keep buying it then nothing will change. It's catch 22.

 

There desire to make a brilliant game seems to be slowing on SI's part. I run my own business and sure making money is at the forefront of my mind, but you have to at least maintain standards and aim to improve them every year.

[Etebaer]

I probably wont, usually i would buy a FM every few years and i am pretty fed up with real world Football plus have quite a Backlog of games i installed but have them rarely if ever played that wait to be experienced.

[andyinuk]

It's not a cult. You can buy the game if you like the demo. And you don't have to buy it if you feel the game has not improve from the last one. 

For me, I would be buying it. I don't even notice any ME bugs when I play it. I just blissfully going along with the game. I found that not popping into GD so much really help to maintain my ignorance on those things and just enjoy the experience. At the end of the days, it's £40. It doesn't even cover a decent meal out for two people in most grown up places.  

[itszamora]

I think it’s a fantastic game, to the extent that I probably won’t buy FM21 (if there is one) because I can see myself going a long way into my current save and won’t want to drop it.

[mp_87]

Probably at some point. The last two or three editions I have first tried the demo, not liked the game, and then ended up either being gifted it or found myself with a free week at some point and really purchased for the hell of it and to satisfy curiosity. I don't get very far though!

The game is at a bit of a crossroads though. In the last few years there has seemed to be more and more avoidable and silly little bugs/quirks to the game that have somehow slipped through the net when previously these might have been isolated incidents. The highest level of polish needs to be reapplied to what is being presented.

Tactics and the ME are where I want to see big change. In the short term, a total rethink on wide play and related behaviour and how the roles are hardcoded is high up the list on the existing platform. Personally though what I hope for is that SI get to a point where they can do a massive tactical revamp and bring in more nuanced, detailed, and complex possibilities. Particularly splitting options both with and without the ball, and dependent on where you are on the pitch. 

[jere_d]

I’ve been thinking about not buying fm for a couple years.

I love football games where you can buy players and enjoy the growth , like fifa career mode used to be, but like fifa the game, for me, hasn’t been getting better. 

the issues the game has on launch are taking longer and longer to fix. 

I feel like you have to play a certain way to win each year, for example playing with a cam is wasting a position.

tika taka won’t take you anywhere because through balls are rare and usually only from cbs.

If I remember rightly there wasn’t a fix for the selfish winger issue until March.

I play online with my friends and there have been issues there for nearly 4 years that aren’t being addressed.

 

1 solution would be spend more time creating an enjoyable match engine and just charge people for dlc (summer transfers) at the “Start” of the big 5 league season

sell a new fm game every 2 or 3 years and fix bug during my that time.

[Brother Ben]

17 hours ago, jere_d said:

1 solution would be spend more time creating an enjoyable match engine and just charge people for dlc (summer transfers) at the “Start” of the big 5 league season

sell a new fm game every 2 or 3 years and fix bug during my that time.

They won't do that, they're selling more copies of the game than ever, summer transfers DLC sounds like something that wouldn't appeal to everyone, the leagues I like to start in I don't know the players anyway and often I start with the fake players box ticked as I feel the player personalities are more realistic and offer more of a challenge

To sell more copies they need headline features whether we like it or not.  It's hard to sell match engine tweaks to prospective new customers

There's a thread like this every year yet they are breaking records for copies sold

I agree with a lot of what you've said though I just don't think it's going to happen for the reasons I've outlined

Edited May 20, 2020 by Brother Ben

[Wavelberry]

I'll probably hold fire and not pre-order/buy first day for the first time in ten or so years until I've tested to see where the ME is. I wasn't happy with the way the football was played in this year's ME and it is that rather than exploits or minor flaws (that can be avoided in earlier versions of MEs) that puts me off. I am happy playing FM18 and unless the ME matches or surpasses it then the 'quality of life' improvements aren't enough to make me slog through a ME that doesn't represent what I want it to.

[Weasek]

I will be buying it ,I know there is some annoyances with the m.e(I hope they do work on them).I am still enjoying playing the game.i dont think there is a game out there without faults.fooball games are my favourite &I think this is the best you can buy right now

[outofroutine]

On 16/05/2020 at 23:07, janrzm said:

My buying cycle will now be from final patch to final patch unless this situation improves. 

@janrzm well, that's what I literally did this year, and look at how many issues I have created within last week... I am amazed how they broke things that has been perfectly working fine in FM19, so I don't know anymore; maybe I will play the Beta and try to report issues asap, hoping that they would be fixed until last patch.. Only thing is that, some of those issues apparently got introduced after certain patches  

From what I see, testing automation/QA processes in SI need serious improvements.

PS. and I must mention that, I have zero problems with the ME; it is hard thing to perfectly implement and make everybody happy with - and it was always fun for me to play. So my whole point is about features that are not functioning as they are supposed to.

Edited May 20, 2020 by outofroutine

[Amnesia92]

I've purchased every version since championship manager 00/01

Bought and played all the FM's but skipped FM18 & 19.

I only buy the game after the final patch has been made so the game is playable.

I only bought FM20 because of furlough to be honest, its decent enough but not as good and enjoyable like the older versions, the results seem somewhat random at times.

Oh well I guess 

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Amnesia92

[Littbarski]

For the first time since Championship Manager 00/01 I will not buy a new version at launch.

[turnip]

I'm getting serious 'Boycott Modern Warfare 2' vibes here...

 

Anyway, FM20 is a good game. It probably took me a little longer than usual to get my head around tactics, but I've got over 800 hours in the game by now and I'll likely add another 100+ to that before I set it aside, ready for FM21.

[Parmie]

If you think this version is buggy you didn't play CM4. I'm more casual towards playing nowadays but I don't see any major issues that justify it being called broken.

As others have pointed out, theres some real life economics working where SI need to get a new annual release out to sustain the studio, if it starting making losses I'm sure SEGA wouldn't keep it going for the love of football. So yeah, it's kind of exploiting my loyalty to the brand so I have future versions to play but given the hours logged, it's a pretty good deal.

Keep in mind these forums are a minority of players, you may think it's too buggy to play, SI will have steam stats saying theres thousands of people playing the game merrily enough. They'll consider that when stopping work on the current version and working on the new one.

[krlenjushka]

2 hours ago, Parmie said:

 SI will have steam stats saying theres thousands of people playing the game merrily enough. They'll consider that when stopping work on the current version and working on the new one.

And thats ok. Its not ok to encourage us to raise same issues in bugs forum year by year and not to fix them or to give us any proper feedback.

"Reviewed" and "Under review" is not good enough for me. Of course that "feedback" will stay there until bugs forum is deleted because new game is out.

And same again. Its simply disrespect of my time.

If they cat fix them they should give us some proper answer. Simple - "our coders dont know how to fix this" or "this is low on our priority list" so we can know and not to raise this issue again.

Financial part of the game is in chaos - contracts are in total mess (England is not only country in this game).

Selling a game that is not ready and full of bugs is disrespect of my money. We should all buy the game after last patch is released.

We are not payed to be beta testers until march.

I said this many times - FM should be released every 2 years. Only after last patch you can play the game. Sometimes not even after. This leaves you with 6-7 months to play.

They dont have enough time to test new game before release - we dont have have enough time to play good game before new release. Only thing that is enough here is our money.

6 months play the game, next 6 months work for SI as beta tester for nothing. And all over again. No thanks.

 

 

[yolixeya]

8 hours ago, krlenjushka said:

Only after last patch you can play the game. Sometimes not even after. This leaves you with 6-7 months to play.

 

8 hours ago, krlenjushka said:

we dont have have enough time to play good game before new release.

 

8 hours ago, krlenjushka said:

6 months play the game, next 6 months work for SI as beta tester for nothing. And all over again. No thanks.

Here is the crazy idea. You can skip buying the game and play it year and a half. Or 2 and a half years. no one is forcing you to buy the game every year.

On topic, I think I will skip FM21. I wanted to skip FM20 but I think I made the mistake of uninstalling FM19 too early.

[krlenjushka]

1 hour ago, yolixeya said:

 

 

Here is the crazy idea. You can skip buying the game and play it year and a half. Or 2 and a half years. no one is forcing you to buy the game every year.

On topic, I think I will skip FM21. I wanted to skip FM20 but I think I made the mistake of uninstalling FM19 too early.

Its not crazy idea - its something we should all consider .

[jere_d]

On 20/05/2020 at 10:09, Brother Ben said:

They won't do that, they're selling more copies of the game than ever, summer transfers DLC sounds like something that wouldn't appeal to everyone, the leagues I like to start in I don't know the players anyway and often I start with the fake players box ticked as I feel the player personalities are more realistic and offer more of a challenge

To sell more copies they need headline features whether we like it or not.  It's hard to sell match engine tweaks to prospective new customers

There's a thread like this every year yet they are breaking records for copies sold

I agree with a lot of what you've said though I just don't think it's going to happen for the reasons I've outlined

Fair enough it was a pretty tunnel vision look at things.

i know I wasn’t impressed with this years feature prelaunch.

And I believe some of them didn’t even work properly ie. loan manager

I just want a match engine that I don’t need to roll my eyes at every couple games

[Smurf]

11 hours ago, krlenjushka said:

And thats ok. Its not ok to encourage us to raise same issues in bugs forum year by year and not to fix them or to give us any proper feedback.
"Reviewed" and "Under review" is not good enough for me. Of course that "feedback" will stay there until bugs forum is deleted because new game is out.

 

So - I don't work for SI - but I do product testing and feedback for graphic design software.

 

I feedback to programmers who I have talked to a lot. 

The way it works is that they tend to work on the most pressing issues first. And work the way down the list.

They'll be given a priority list to work on. What might be pressing for you, is not pressing for the team.

Plus, something simple that you think may be simple to fix. But can have knock on effects down the line to other parts of the programming.

Rigourous testing needs to be carried out before releasing it to the general public. And usually then, with 100,000's of people playing, find something that is not quite right.

In their testing, for a "simple fix" that you think is simple, they find it has a knock on effect, so they need to sort that out, which might take 1 version, it make take 2 versions to write the code so it has limited knock on effects down the line.

 

For something that is out there already, and people report the bug to the update, then they need to continue to test until it's fixed, which might take 2 or 3 updates.

There's a limit to how much updates then can do - as with any problem, you don't fix them all at the same time, you need to see what knock on effects they have before proceeding. 

That's basics in computer programming, or fixing an IT problem, is to work on one thing. Go step by step. Something you fix in step 3 could affect step 7, and what you fix in step 7 could affect step 2.

 

It's not as simple as saying - there's a bug and it should be fixed. There are always knock on effects, and worse are knock-"back" effects where you think you fixed it but an earlier process is affected.

 

*imagine a bug that you find has 100 previous calculations and has 100 after calculations.

You fix that 1 calculation that has the bug, but then find that the previous 100 calcuations don't work anymore, or the 100 calculations after! You're permuation here is approximately (and I could be wrong) 
8450550186924629495838157093855404565441366722012461965560414732385728621597296137876420884621412468214583850753160522570648517967532382305454834505647607520427964189812887040005874546880020480000000000000000000000000

Edited May 21, 2020 by Smurf

[santy001]

11 hours ago, krlenjushka said:

And thats ok. Its not ok to encourage us to raise same issues in bugs forum year by year and not to fix them or to give us any proper feedback.

"Reviewed" and "Under review" is not good enough for me. Of course that "feedback" will stay there until bugs forum is deleted because new game is out.

And same again. Its simply disrespect of my time.

 

 

On one hand I understand your point. On the other hand I have to wonder do you need to be told that flying cars aren't possible and teleportation isn't possible for you to accept that you can't make use of it in day to day life?

Surely there is a degree of inferred understanding that by virtue of a bug still being present and not being fixed, it couldn't be fixed. Whatever the reason may be.

[krlenjushka]

Just now, santy001 said:

Surely there is a degree of inferred understanding that by virtue of a bug still being present and not being fixed, it couldn't be fixed. Whatever the reason may be.

 

Whatever reason is - we deserve to know. Should i report same bug year by year and everything i get is "thank you" and "under review"?

WE NEED MORE FEEDBACK!!!!!  They should keep old versions bugs forum visible. Many bugs are same just like 5 years ago.

 

11 minutes ago, santy001 said:

 On the other hand I have to wonder do you need to be told that flying cars aren't possible

Flying cars are possible and in use as we speak.  I guess youre stuck on 2005.

 

[santy001]

You're doomed to disappointment then @krlenjushka because you're conflating the role of a developer with the role of a customer service position. 

[krlenjushka]

5 minutes ago, santy001 said:

You're doomed to disappointment then @krlenjushka because you're conflating the role of a developer with the role of a customer service position. 

Strange -  why always when i wrote something that is not good for sales i get answer from some forum member with 5000+ posts.

I guess i need to write only positive comments.

[santy001]

I mean, do you want to have another go at trying to make your point there? My post count doesn't really mean that much. Considering I've been a member on the forums for a little over 6 years longer than you than you I'm not going to nail my maths to the mast but I'm sure that means you would average a higher post count per day than I do.

If you're looking for some kind of conspiracy theory related post, you've also got the Moderator tag to include and the Stoke Researcher one. If it helps, I also get a free copy of the game. Go wild with it.

[alian62]

28 minutes ago, krlenjushka said:

Strange -  why always when i wrote something that is not good for sales i get answer from some forum member with 5000+ posts.

I guess i need to write only positive comments.

People always look for negative responses as its human nature . I am on your side with this as its the same issues every year and you know what I would not mind as much but they promote the game as a Realistic management game with 3D match play to enhance the experience . Now I pay my hard earned money and I don't get what it offers , then post bugs in the bugs section that don't get fixed , Then have to wait for patches to try to make the game playable which more often that not make the game worse , then say that's all the patches for this version so will have to wait until the next version in hope things get fixed and it starts all over again . So I should have a right to be negative but then moderators tell you you cant bag the game unless its constructive but the issue with that is it doesn't get noticed as much . Ive had every issue of the game since FM08 and the last 2 instalments have just taken a nose dive ( My opinion ) . Just not happy the way the game has gone now and it will have to take an enormous turn around for me to make anymore purchases . The game was great but now its average and it still amazes me how PCgamer and those businesses that review games give them 8 or 9/10  even before they are released . They never review them after 6 months or look at Customer feedback . 

[themadsheep2001]

It's general discussion forum. Prepare to have points of view debated and talked about for most part, if you don't like that, forums probably arent for you

Could there be more feedback from SI? yes

Is it a good use of time for a dev like Jack Joyce to invest loads of time doing so when he could be working on the game itself? Almost certainly not

[krlenjushka]

25 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Could there be more feedback from SI? yes

Is it a good use of time for a dev like Jack Joyce to invest loads of time doing so when he could be working on the game itself? Almost certainly not

Exactly. This means just one thing. Communication between devs and cutomers is bad. Reasons? I dont know. Of course devs doesnt have time to speak directly to customers. We should have some "bridge" here. Groups of guys who should communicate with customers and try to understand real background of some problems so they can explain this to devs or whoever is responsible for changing something.

1 hour ago, santy001 said:

Considering I've been a member on the forums for a little over 6 years longer than you than you I'm not going to nail my maths to the mast but I'm sure that means you would average a higher post count per day than I do.

Im member  of this forum from 2008 but i got banned from my first profile because i wrote things like this.

 

[themadsheep2001]

9 minutes ago, krlenjushka said:

Exactly. This means just one thing. Communication between devs and cutomers is bad. Reasons? I dont know. Of course devs doesnt have time to speak directly to customers. We should have some "bridge" here. Groups of guys who should communicate with customers and try to understand real background of some problems so they can explain this to devs or whoever is responsible for changing something.

Im member  of this forum from 2008 but i got banned from my first profile because i wrote things like this.

 

That is literally what Neil does, might be worth listening to him. It's also what the feedback thread is for when people actually use it constructively

[krlenjushka]

22 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

That is literally what Neil does, might be worth listening to him. It's also what the feedback thread is for when people actually use it constructively

About that "constructive" part of the post(s). 

2-3 years ago i wrote to some HR and i give him some infos about wrong data in database. With proof of course. He declined me without reason. I asked 2-3 more times but no luck. When i tried to contact his "boss" i was declined also because i wrote "bad" about that HR.

And after that i read this:

26 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

use it constructively

Please dont.

 

[Neil Brock]

There's been a few posts in here which have touched upon the nature of software development. The people on the bugs forums are often part of our QA team, they'll try and log the issue (assuming they can reproduce it and enough info has been provided) into our bug tracking system so the coder is aware. When doing so they'll set a priority for the bug depending on how serious and/or widespread it is.

From here it's dependent on the coders workload, the time of the cycle (so what they're working on already) and the complexity of the issue. 

Due to the size of our development team, eventually the workload for the coders will have to move onto features for a future version. Some issues raised will be fixed automatically as part of redesigns or improvements of certain areas. Some will be fixed, but that doesn't mean they can't be affected by knock-ons or new information being added further down the line which cause an issue to occur again - problems related to fixture clashes for instance. Others due to their low priority will wait until after feature design/implementation and be looked at again in the next bug fixing stage. 

For each cycle older bugs tend to get re-checked by QA to make sure they're still happening. At that stage they are bumped and potentially re-prioritised to a higher level. 

Some other games who release on cycles have different strategies. Some release a base game with loads of DLC. We don't do that. We try to make every release a true step forward in what Football Manager is. We know we won't please everyone with what we choose to focus on. But we do spend huge amounts of time reading feedback, feature requests and suggestions both on here and across various other channels. Whilst we can't guarantee every post, tweet or shout out the window is read or heard, part of my team's job is to be the voice of the community within the studio. We're trying to use more data and evidence to do this, rather than be overly reliant on anecdotal feedback and we've making plans in order to allow us to take huge strides in doing so. 

Additionally, as a studio we're on a huge recruitment drive at the moment, especially on the development side as shown here - https://www.sigames.com/careers

We'd love to have a bigger staff with more resources, but the reality of the games market mean there are a lot of companies going after similar talent, which means it's hard to do everything we want to. But even with the current circumstances we're working hard, designing and plotting our path for the future of the game. We're positive about the future. But as has rightly been said here, the proof will be in the pudding. Which is why we make sure to release a demo of the game on the very same day as full release - it's entirely up to you if you want to try before you buy. You can read reviews, check these forums or simply try it for yourself. We think we put out the best football management title on the market and we'll strive to continue to make our game the very best it can be. 

Because fundamentally we're all players too. If we can't enjoy playing the game in our free time, how can we expect you to? 

[XaW]

I've bought pretty much every version of FM since it changed from CM, and I will most likely buy FM21 as well. It's the one game I buy every version of, and the one game I've never been really disappointed by. Sure, there are things I don't fully agree with, but I either learn to live with it, or it's something I can delegate to a staff member. For FM20, I really like the changes for youth development and the club vision. Now, the features where always kind of present, but it's now much more visible and accessible for users to interact with and get feedback. And the lack of feedback is something a lot has asked for, for a long time. So I, for one, am really happy SI are improving upon those things. I can't be bothered with training, so I set that to the assistant manager and I've never had much issue with it. I know a lot really enjoy setting it up, so it's a nice thing for others that I can ignore.

For the Match Engine, I really don't mind it. I've used the same tactical mindset since FM17, and only made minor changes for each version since then and had lots of fun with it. I don't see an excessive amount of set pieces scored or conceded, and I see a nice variation of goals all around.

21 set piece goals scored and 17 conceded in the last 50 matches might be a tad high, but not something that stood out to me either way. I see a good amount of variation of play and goals, and while there are certain strange animations every once in a while, it's not enough to break the immersion, at least for me. Perhaps using an exploit tactic would cause strange things to happen in game, but since that's not my bag of tea I can say anything about it.

I'm not on 1,359 hours (and counting) for FM20, and since I bought it for the equivalent of £35 in Norwegian kroner, that means I've payed £0.026 per hour of entertainment. For me that's the best value for money I can think of. So yes, I'm quite sure I'm going to buy FM21. There would be some really strange changes to the game for me to not buy it.

[krlenjushka]

1 hour ago, Neil Brock said:

There's been a few posts in here which have touched upon the nature of software development. The people on the bugs forums are often part of our QA team, they'll try and log the issue (assuming they can reproduce it and enough info has been provided) into our bug tracking system so the coder is aware. When doing so they'll set a priority for the bug depending on how serious and/or widespread it is.

From here it's dependent on the coders workload, the time of the cycle (so what they're working on already) and the complexity of the issue. 

Due to the size of our development team, eventually the workload for the coders will have to move onto features for a future version. Some issues raised will be fixed automatically as part of redesigns or improvements of certain areas. Some will be fixed, but that doesn't mean they can't be affected by knock-ons or new information being added further down the line which cause an issue to occur again - problems related to fixture clashes for instance. Others due to their low priority will wait until after feature design/implementation and be looked at again in the next bug fixing stage. 

For each cycle older bugs tend to get re-checked by QA to make sure they're still happening. At that stage they are bumped and potentially re-prioritised to a higher level. 

Some other games who release on cycles have different strategies. Some release a base game with loads of DLC. We don't do that. We try to make every release a true step forward in what Football Manager is. We know we won't please everyone with what we choose to focus on. But we do spend huge amounts of time reading feedback, feature requests and suggestions both on here and across various other channels. Whilst we can't guarantee every post, tweet or shout out the window is read or heard, part of my team's job is to be the voice of the community within the studio. We're trying to use more data and evidence to do this, rather than be overly reliant on anecdotal feedback and we've making plans in order to allow us to take huge strides in doing so. 

Additionally, as a studio we're on a huge recruitment drive at the moment, especially on the development side as shown here - https://www.sigames.com/careers

We'd love to have a bigger staff with more resources, but the reality of the games market mean there are a lot of companies going after similar talent, which means it's hard to do everything we want to. But even with the current circumstances we're working hard, designing and plotting our path for the future of the game. We're positive about the future. But as has rightly been said here, the proof will be in the pudding. Which is why we make sure to release a demo of the game on the very same day as full release - it's entirely up to you if you want to try before you buy. You can read reviews, check these forums or simply try it for yourself. We think we put out the best football management title on the market and we'll strive to continue to make our game the very best it can be. 

Because fundamentally we're all players too. If we can't enjoy playing the game in our free time, how can we expect you to? 

This is best answer i ever read here from someone related to SI.

 

1 hour ago, Neil Brock said:

Additionally, as a studio we're on a huge recruitment drive at the moment, especially on the development side as shown here - https://www.sigames.com/careers

We'd love to have a bigger staff with more resources, but the reality of the games market mean there are a lot of companies going after similar talent, which means it's hard to do everything we want to.

Especially this part.   I guess this is answer for almost any question we ask here about communication and bugs solving.

Thank you.

[santy001]

Yet it's well worth mentioning that this isn't the first such post Neil has made in this vein. Nor is it the 10th, 20th etc. 

This isn't a case of it being a rare occurrence and after years of silence it has elicited a response from someone at SI. It's just par for the course. Neil, among others, regularly makes quite comprehensive posts on a wide variety of all things FM.

But people remember the negatives, they make a post in a thread once and never come back to it and so on. So in a couple days/weeks/months time when someone posts their particular gripe the same lines will be repeated. 

[Neil Brock]

I think in fairness some of the information we share on these forums isn't always that visible, so we need to work on making sure people get to see these kinds of comments. When we've tended to make these kinds of statements outside of a conversation topic that's already started they get held up and (not always, but sometimes) picked apart a bit. But yeah, I'm always happy to share what I can about FM and the SI side. Hopefully as touched upon above, we can find better ways of doing this moving forward.  

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Neil Brock said:

I think in fairness some of the information we share on these forums isn't always that visible, so we need to work on making sure people get to see these kinds of comments. When we've tended to make these kinds of statements outside of a conversation topic that's already started they get held up and (not always, but sometimes) picked apart a bit. But yeah, I'm always happy to share what I can about FM and the SI side. Hopefully as touched upon above, we can find better ways of doing this moving forward.  

Perhaps some of these posts can live in a stickied thread at the top of the GD forum. ideally people should notice that straightway and easy for anyone else to link it to any relevant discussions

[baris28]

Not to disrespect but Gary Grigsby's War in the East has 518 weapon database. It took 7 years for fire and assault phase to balance them properly. Imagine that is niche wargaming do not sell well.. But It was all free patches only a few DLC. And those DLC were only about scenario not about grand campaign.

I don't buy this sentence 'we have limited coders'. Sorry.

Edited May 21, 2020 by baris28

[Garrlor]

3 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

I think in fairness some of the information we share on these forums isn't always that visible, so we need to work on making sure people get to see these kinds of comments. When we've tended to make these kinds of statements outside of a conversation topic that's already started they get held up and (not always, but sometimes) picked apart a bit. But yeah, I'm always happy to share what I can about FM and the SI side. Hopefully as touched upon above, we can find better ways of doing this moving forward.  

As I said before too, I have had constructive discussion with Herne about some of these issues while banging my head against FM19 and possession football as a whole when playing as a bigger team. There were reasons I moved away from 19, why I only tried the demo of 20 and we had a polite and fruitful discussion. The method SI use to sell thier games is the only one that will work in this market now and I totally get that.

I know a lot of your posts come out again and again Neil, I followed the feedback thread for a long while before I tried the FM20 demo and you were posting the same things over and over. I can see it from both sides of the fence if I am honest, sometimes people just want to be told yes we are looking at it. Other times people just come steaming in without having read any of the previous pages and demand answers, rightly pissing off the community feedback guys. As a suggestion maybe some sort of pop up, warning label or something linking to a thread for hot community topics? So you can just post "hey guys, we know about the crazy corner routine issue and defenders not moving correctly, its being looked at". Keep it discussion free, but keep telling people its there. Trust me, a lot of people will just zoom right over stickies unless you actively shout and point them to what they need to know. It is unfortunately human nature :).

For things like the feedback thread, perhaps it is possible to have a perma post appear at the top of every page that someone looks at as the top post, linking to the right sticky or thread? That way you can direct them to where they need to go to check out the latest gen on the bugs, issues etc etc. Just a thought for a lovely spring evening!

As for FM21, I want to support SI with my purchase, I have been playing since 01/02 and I have thousands of hours invested in total. Unfortunately these days I have to be a bit wiser with how I spend my money. What I spend on FM, or another game for that matter, has to be worth it for me with regards to fun. That cash otherwise could go to the smoker I desperately want to buy .

[jwccfc1987]

Perhaps a behind the scenes type video could go a long way to addressing some of these and other concerns? Seeing people at work, particularly programmers, or whatever else you felt like.