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The Jack Grealish (and occasionally England) Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570


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1 minute ago, ajw10 said:

I think he'll go with a back 3 if Maguire isn't fit. If Maguire is, it'll be a back 4

I don't think going with a 3 is smart as I don't think it suits any of our attacking players. 

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11 minutes ago, Icondacarver said:

So what if Lingard has a Messi level game scoring 5 goals including running the length of the pitch nutmegging Alaba 3 times en-route to his 5th goal? :D

We wake up

 

45 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Gareth Southgate says if he could have picked five or six right-backs for England's Euro 2020 campaign he "would have done".

giphy.gif

I mean, he definitely could have, and frankly if he's going to pick four he might as well pick Ayling, Aarons, Cash, Wan Bissaka, Maitland Niles and Young so he's got the full XI

 

1 minute ago, ajw10 said:

I think he'll go with a back 3 if Maguire isn't fit. If Maguire is, it'll be a back 4

He'll only have three actual central defenders if Maguire isn't fit...

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7 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Bellingham's more box to box, alongside a holding mid type. I can only see him starting in a 433 if Henderson isn't fit. 

Bellingham-Rice-Mount would be nice

Yep exactly my thoughts

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Southgate is always going to use 2 holders in a 433 though i think. Because of the talent in the squad i think people obviously want to see those types of lineups but i dont think we'll be nearly as adventurous as the squad suggests.

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This is basically the depth chart if England go 3-4-3 (Notice that I just listed all the 10s at WL and all the wingers at WR for sorting purposes, not preferences. Also put Rashford as ST so it looks balanced :D)

253790832_EnglandEuro2021depth.png.f3cda583182ecf3867c2e1fc73aab99c.png

With the squad picked, Southgate definitely has Walker and James at RCB of a back 3 in mind, because that's the most logical explanation why he called up all 4 RBs. He's got a back up for every position, and by making this out, it seems like Saka is the main beneficiary of Greenwood's injury. Genuinely think Southgate loves JWP, but Bellingham's rise at Dortmund forced him to not call him up. Lingard is just redundant in this formation when all the AMs and Ws are just better options. There's an argument he could've been in there instead of Saka, but don't think it'll matter that much since neither would start many games anyway.

Seems like Southgate is going for the 2018 World Cup defence line-up again with Maguire-Stones-Walker back 3, Trippier at RWB, and a United player at LWB. Now he has Coady as a back up, a player who excells in the back 3 for Wolves. Don't actually rate Mings that much (just not my cup of tea imo and think Konsa is better), but I've come to warm up to the thought of a left footer as a back up there. Think if Joe Gomez isn't injured, he'd be there instead of Mings but that's a moot point anyways. Personal bias or not, he's the only weak link in the squad where Southgate don't exactly have better options above Mings for this exact role.

I personally don't like the idea of Rice and Hendo as a midfield pair if England were to go with a back 3/5. In a back 4, that pair is fine because that means there's more attacking players are on the pitch. In the last Nations League matches, that pairing in a 3-4-3 is too static and have lacks creativity, especially when Gareth shunts his AMs to the wings (Mount, Foden, Grealish) where they aren't as effective. Personally, it should be Rice OR Henderson rather than AND, with Bellingham or possibly Mount next to the one starting.

Kane is a cert, and DCL is a very abled back up. The players next to him are the toss up, really. An inform Sterling would've definitely be locked in the XI, but an out-of-form Sterling is lucky he's included. You could make a case for anyone playing next to Kane and I genuinely could say, "fair enough". It's refreshing to have an England side with so many good options around the pitch, when in 2018, people were genuinely discussing should Southgate have called up one of Shelvey or Wilshere...

 

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3 minutes ago, Marc Albrighton said:

Southgate is always going to use 2 holders in a 433 though i think. Because of the talent in the squad i think people obviously want to see those types of lineups but i dont think we'll be nearly as adventurous as the squad suggests.

It's Southgate so there is no chance we're getting anything other than a team with a solid 7-8 defensive minded players. 

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On 31/05/2021 at 16:30, Matthew Le God said:

Me when Ward-Prowse wins the tournament with a perfect free kick:

James Ward Prowse GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

(p.s. there is far more to his game than the lazy pundit view all he has is free kicks and corners)

Gonna need to be a bloody good free kick to score it from his sofa.

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4 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

"Deano" :D

Bit over familiar that, he's only got one cap

England's got 2 Henderson's in the team and one's already taken the "Hendo" nickname. It was the easiest way to differentiate the two, otherwise some idiot might think/joke "hurrdurr why are you playing Jordan Henderson in goal hurrdurr"

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54 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

We wake up

 

I mean, he definitely could have, and frankly if he's going to pick four he might as well pick Ayling, Aarons, Cash, Wan Bissaka, Maitland Niles and Young so he's got the full XI

 

He'll only have three actual central defenders if Maguire isn't fit...

Walker plays RCB.

So Walker, Stones, Mings, Coady

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Just now, ajw10 said:

Walker plays RCB.

So Walker, Stones, Mings, Coady

3 from those 4 still seems a bit thin for a tournament, especially considering Walker's not exactly a natural performer there and it's a 26 man squad...

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Walker did play there in the World Cup, plus one of Shaw/Chilwell could fill in at LCB in an emergency, even Rice could.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm convinced that we are playing a back 3 without Maguire

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50 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

3 from those 4 still seems a bit thin for a tournament, especially considering Walker's not exactly a natural performer there and it's a 26 man squad...

Even more thin when Mings isnt even the best CB at Villa.

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3 hours ago, afced7 said:

Gonna need to be a bloody good free kick to score it from his sofa.

I underestimated the hamster in the wheel in Southgate's head! I'm not saying he should be first choice or even starting, but to not be in the squad at all is daft.

20210601_235406.jpg

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Let's be honest, he's **** and the players that have been picked ahead of him are better. He's essentially lost out to Bellingham and I don't think anyone in their right mind would complain at that decision.

If you calculate those stats per 90, as you should when one player has played over 500 minutes more than the next guy, he's middle of the pack for most of them. Cba to work all of them out, but successful tackles per 90 is lower than Phillips and Bellingham. And not really that much better than Mount or Rice.

One goal from open play is no better than anyone else. WhoScored suggests all 7 of those assists were from set pieces - 4 from corners, 3 from free kicks. So 0 assists from open play for a midfielder that played the full 90 minutes in all 38 Premier League games.

 

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Genuine question for the people who want to see England 'open up' a bit more - is it because you think it would be better to watch or because you think it will be more effective?

As far as I can remember the last time a World Cup/Euros was won by the most entertaining team was Brazil in 2002, though perhaps I'm doing a disservice to Spain 2008 and Germany 2014. By and large the best team to watch blitzes a couple of teams in the group stage and looks great until they come up against one of the best teams at which point they go out (Spain 06, Holland 08 and Colombia 14 the ones that immediately spring to mind but I'm sure there are others) while the tournament is won by a pragmatic side who are set up to play safe first and foremost. Perhaps in 6 weeks time I'll look like an idiot for saying this but in a tournament with 7 games in 4 weeks, at the end of an incredibly congested season where the majority of players already look absolutely cooked I can't see how going more gung-ho is logical over prioritising solidity and conserving energy.

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Better/more effective. If playing 3 at the back has seen us under Gareth narrowly lose games, where we’ve been the better side and not had the break then it’s fine. But it hasn’t been, nearly every time we play 3 at the back against a semi good team, we lack ideas and options forward because it ends up being a back 5, with 2 CMs on the CBs toes. Then then the 2 ‘wingers’ have to drop and try and get on the ball really deep, leaving Kane isolated up top. Turns into the opposition can then control the game more easily in our half, and eventually break us down because even with all those defenders we’re not good at defending :D 

Players IMO are just not suited to that system, and Gareth isn’t a good enough coach to drill them into it to be effective. 

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5 hours ago, Astafjevs said:

WhoScored suggests all 7 of those assists were from set pieces - 4 from corners, 3 from free kicks.

Are assists from set pieces and goals from set pieces not assists and goals?  Why write them off?

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24 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Are assists from set pieces and goals from set pieces not assists and goals?  Why write them off?

He didn't, he said he has zero assists from open play which shows the most common proved theory that set pieces aside, JWP is just a run of the midfielder and others do the jobs required much better, and let's be real, there is a reason he is still at Southampton.

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7 hours ago, Astafjevs said:

Let's be honest, he's **** and the players that have been picked ahead of him are better. He's essentially lost out to Bellingham and I don't think anyone in their right mind would complain at that decision.

If you calculate those stats per 90, as you should when one player has played over 500 minutes more than the next guy, he's middle of the pack for most of them. Cba to work all of them out, but successful tackles per 90 is lower than Phillips and Bellingham. And not really that much better than Mount or Rice.

One goal from open play is no better than anyone else. WhoScored suggests all 7 of those assists were from set pieces - 4 from corners, 3 from free kicks. So 0 assists from open play for a midfielder that played the full 90 minutes in all 38 Premier League games.

 

Tbf those stats aren't bad considering that unlike the others, he wasn't playing for a complete disaster of a football team

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8 hours ago, Robokid87 said:

Genuine question for the people who want to see England 'open up' a bit more - is it because you think it would be better to watch or because you think it will be more effective?

For me, I just don't trust our defence enough to think that we can actually win a tournament by grinding out results.  We aren't going to go 7 games without Stones or Pickford or whoever gifting a vital goal to the opposition. And if we're set up to be solid and suddenly have to get a goal from somewhere, it's a big mentality change needed.  We don't have to go completely gung-ho, but I don't want to see us start with 3 centre halves, 2 holding midfielders and Mason Mount stuck out wide in the front 3. 

The fitness aspect is why we should have taken as many forwards and midfielders as we could, not a million right backs.  If we have to rotate Sancho, Foden, Sterling and Rashford for the wider positions, then fine by me.  And of course, it's an English team, so being defensive means we just sit deeper and deeper and hit the ball longer and longer and cede possession to the other team.  Get on the front foot, keep the ball and make the other team do the running.

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8 hours ago, Robokid87 said:

Genuine question for the people who want to see England 'open up' a bit more - is it because you think it would be better to watch or because you think it will be more effective?

As far as I can remember the last time a World Cup/Euros was won by the most entertaining team was Brazil in 2002, though perhaps I'm doing a disservice to Spain 2008 and Germany 2014. By and large the best team to watch blitzes a couple of teams in the group stage and looks great until they come up against one of the best teams at which point they go out (Spain 06, Holland 08 and Colombia 14 the ones that immediately spring to mind but I'm sure there are others) while the tournament is won by a pragmatic side who are set up to play safe first and foremost. Perhaps in 6 weeks time I'll look like an idiot for saying this but in a tournament with 7 games in 4 weeks, at the end of an incredibly congested season where the majority of players already look absolutely cooked I can't see how going more gung-ho is logical over prioritising solidity and conserving energy.

Both. We just don't have a defence that's going to keep the opposition out and grind our way to a trophy. Our strength is midfield and attack. Better off trying to win 2/3-1 than 1-0

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15 hours ago, arenaross said:

It's Southgate so there is no chance we're getting anything other than a team with a solid 7-8 defensive minded players. 

Is that counting the GK or not? :D 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, skybluedave said:

Imagine the state of our centre backs if Stones hadn't turned it around this season. Year ago he was pretty much zero chance playing this summer. 

The CB options for England in 2021 is in a very poor state.

Edited by craigcwwe
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Seriously is there a more scummier place than Sports Direct :D

Wife gets a 20% off code for being NHS, so I think right going to get the 3 boys the full England kit for the Euros

Put my older son the Goalie Kit and Home Kit in the basket, it says free name offer, so put Pickford and Foden. I then add 2 kits in for my twins

Total before discount is £268, I add the 20% discount code, it takes all the 'FREE' names and stuff off, adds the cost of it, totals the price at £293, then takes 20% off that for a total of £251 

They're ****ing thieving twats aren't they 

The goalie and home kit now costs me more with the name with the 20% off code :D 

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Posted (edited)

I think people seriously underestimate how much having nearly-perfect set-plays are in a big international tournament. Most of these teams are more or less evenly matched especially if all the big boys play to their potential and reach the meaty stages of the competition. 

It is in games like that, and in times like that, that you will have just the little edge of having someone that can just produce some bit of magic from something so "simple". I've seen it so many times with Beckham, Juninho, and Messi or even on long-throws. There are times in games that having just that little extra wins it surprisingly.

I would've taken him over Saka, or one of the right-backs. 

Well we shall see how it goes.

Edited by samuelawachie
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When it comes to controlling a midfield in a big game, the England squad will not compete favorably with the other traditional bigger sides. I fear that their midfield is weak and will necessitate a long ball/passes and/or counter-attacking style of play.

I'm fascinated by how England even after all this time haven't learnt that "controlling the midfield" is key in BIG matches. 

That's the reason Chelsea won their 2nd UCL trophy last week. That's the reason some of the spanish sides have been successful in the past. And Germany too.

They just never learn...

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33 minutes ago, samuelawachie said:

I think people seriously underestimate how much having nearly-perfect set-plays are in a big international tournament. Most of these teams are more or less evenly matched especially if all the big boys play to their potential and reach the meaty stages of the competition. 

It is in games like that, and in times like that, that you will have just the little edge of having someone that can just produce some bit of magic from something so "simple". I've seen it so many times with Beckham, Juninho, and Messi or even on long-throws. There are times in games that having just that little extra wins it surprisingly.

I would've taken him over Saka, or one of the right-backs. 

Well we shall see how it goes.

England has no shortage of quality options to take right-footed set pieces. 

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1 hour ago, Barry Cartman said:

Seriously is there a more scummier place than Sports Direct :D

Wife gets a 20% off code for being NHS, so I think right going to get the 3 boys the full England kit for the Euros

Put my older son the Goalie Kit and Home Kit in the basket, it says free name offer, so put Pickford and Foden. I then add 2 kits in for my twins

Total before discount is £268, I add the 20% discount code, it takes all the 'FREE' names and stuff off, adds the cost of it, totals the price at £293, then takes 20% off that for a total of £251 

They're ****ing thieving twats aren't they 

The goalie and home kit now costs me more with the name with the 20% off code :D 

Thought you were going to say they tried to charge you for your older son.

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10 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

England has no shortage of quality options to take right-footed set pieces. 

Way to miss the point. I didn’t say they don’t have quality right-footed players to take set-plays. 
When you have someone that’s sitting at the table with the best in the world at a particular skill, you give him serious consideration. 
I just assume Southgate did and he and he alone will be responsible for the decision, like always. 

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4 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

How many set pieces have Messi, Beckham, Juninho, JWP scored in a World Cup Semi Final?... 

Only players to score in a semi-final or later for England in either a WC or Euro's since the 66 World Cup - Lineker, Shearer and Trippier.

He deserves some damn respect.

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14 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

How many set pieces have Messi, Beckham, Juninho, JWP scored in a World Cup Semi Final?... 

And taking set-pieces is just one particular skill. I could’ve said the same thing if they had one of the best passers of a football (like Riquelme) or one of the best headers (like Crouch) or something else very specific. 
Those players didn’t offer greater than standard in other areas of the game but were highly valued members due to their unusual skill. A very powerful shot. Two-footedness. Prodigious dribbling ability. Anything

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, samuelawachie said:

When it comes to controlling a midfield in a big game, the England squad will not compete favorably with the other traditional bigger sides. I fear that their midfield is weak and will necessitate a long ball/passes and/or counter-attacking style of play.

I'm fascinated by how England even after all this time haven't learnt that "controlling the midfield" is key in BIG matches. 

That's the reason Chelsea won their 2nd UCL trophy last week. That's the reason some of the spanish sides have been successful in the past. And Germany too.

They just never learn...

Partly why I don't like the 343, quickly turns int a 523 and you're pushed back if not done right. It's going to be the system of choice though sadly and we'll be forced to play counter attack football and on the back foot when we play a team as good or better than we are. 

Edited by craigcwwe
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36 minutes ago, samuelawachie said:

Way to miss the point. I didn’t say they don’t have quality right-footed players to take set-plays. 
When you have someone that’s sitting at the table with the best in the world at a particular skill, you give him serious consideration. 
I just assume Southgate did and he and he alone will be responsible for the decision, like always. 

I didn't miss your point. I'm saying the margins aren't significant enough to make a difference. 

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1 hour ago, XuluBak said:

I didn't miss your point. I'm saying the margins aren't significant enough to make a difference. 

If you're in a position where set pieces make such big margins, your actual style of play is massively compromised

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Saying this as someone who probably would have taken Ward-Prowse in the 26, but I don't know why people are massively inflating the importance of his set piece ability. Yeah, he's absolutely outstanding at them, but given the players who are comfortably ahead of him, baring injury how much is he even going to play? Even as an impact sub, you'd be throwing him on in the hope of getting a set piece that might not even happen. 

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29 minutes ago, Pukey said:

Saying this as someone who probably would have taken Ward-Prowse in the 26, but I don't know why people are massively inflating the importance of his set piece ability. Yeah, he's absolutely outstanding at them, but given the players who are comfortably ahead of him, baring injury how much is he even going to play? Even as an impact sub, you'd be throwing him on in the hope of getting a set piece that might not even happen. 


Yeah, like say you’re losing 1-0 with 15 minutes to go, Ward Prowse like for like with Henderson, Bellingham or Phillips isn’t that much of an impact sub and you might not even get a free kick or corner before the end of the game. 

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I've just tried putting it into a formation. wont be...

Pickford

Trippier--Coady--Mings

Alexander Arnold--Rice--Bellingham--Saka

Lingard--Kane--Grealish

Would it?

 

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  • metal_guitarist changed the title to The Jack Grealish (and occasionally England) Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570

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