Football Manager 2021 - New Headline Features

[hoddle1404]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

 

Excellent.. this is useful 

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

Role movement animatons

Got to say, this is fantastic! 

[bobbyb12345]

The tactics have animations too, the bigger issue is whether the animations have any bearing on what happens in the ME.

[Christmas]

Role movement videos terrible 

[upthetoon]

19 minutes ago, bobbyb12345 said:

The tactics have animations too, the bigger issue is whether the animations have any bearing on what happens in the ME.

Exactly this. The animation is roughly how it's suppose to work but not sure if the ME is good enough to replicate it. 

[StevehFC]

Would it not be better for Miles social media updates on FM21 to be added to a separate thread so everyone can see them? 

[grade]

The Role animation sound like good feature.

[Neil Brock]

9 minutes ago, StevehFC said:

Would it not be better for Miles social media updates on FM21 to be added to a separate thread so everyone can see them? 

Yeah that's the eventual plan. Still a fair few to come yet, so waiting until we've got the set

[Icy]

hace 3 horas, HUNT3R dijo:

 

Wish we could see some of these animations in the 2D view of the ME like the through passes etc that we haven't for two years at least.

But anyway, I like this feature, congrats! the tactics screens need much more visual examples of what we can expect with each setting. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Icy

[bobbyb12345]

46 minutes ago, upthetoon said:

Exactly this. The animation is roughly how it's suppose to work but not sure if the ME is good enough to replicate it. 

The animation for "Direct  Counter Attack" looks brilliant then you see it in the ME and it's just defenders blasting the ball 40 yards up field to nobody in particular.

[KingCanary]

22 hours ago, Choccy18 said:

Horrible idea to hide attributes, IRL you can spot a good passer, crosser whatever using your eyes. An experienced manager spots the major strengths/weaknesses pretty quickly during training or in matches. 

Attributes are the only way to see this in a game such as FM.

Hiding attributes and replacing it with text like 'very fast' or 'good finisher' would be much less realistic in my opinion.

Klopp won't just have Salah and TAA both down as 'very fast' he'll know exactly how fast across certain distances etc. He'll know if Firminho have a better performance v XG rather than something saying both are 'excellent finishers.'

[bobbyb12345]

Just now, KingCanary said:

Hiding attributes and replacing it with text like 'very fast' or 'good finisher' would be much less realistic in my opinion.

Klopp won't just have Salah and TAA both down as 'very fast' he'll know exactly how fast across certain distances etc. He'll know if Firminho have a better performance v XG rather than something saying both are 'excellent finishers.'

It *could* work, though.

Rather than arbitrary numbers it could say "sprint speed: 25kmph", conversion rate: "24.3%) or whatever.

So using quantifiable numbers rather than 1-20 attributes. You can argue that might be too complex/inaccessible though.

[Zemahh]

Some more role movement animations: https://www.instagram.com/stories/milessi/

Not sure how long Instagram stories stay up though.

[IrrelevantLion]

54 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Some more role movement animations: https://www.instagram.com/stories/milessi/

Not sure how long Instagram stories stay up though.

Too small to see properly..

[autohoratio]

1 minute ago, IrrelevantLion said:

Too small to see properly..

No idea what Miles is thinking by putting landscape 16x9 videos letterboxed in the Instagram Stories 9x16 portait format... Should just post them on twitter or youtube instead. (CC @Neil Brock)

[Mikal]

I'm not sure if it's been raised yet, but it'd be useful to know if the role animations change based on duty rather than just the role itself.

[-Jef-]

10 minutes ago, Mikal said:

I'm not sure if it's been raised yet, but it'd be useful to know if the role animations change based on duty rather than just the role itself.

But the way that 2 players play as Winger-Support with no PIs can differ wildly based on attributes and PPMs. I assume that this is to give a rough idea of what the role does. Messi and Adama Traore would play wildly differently as Winger-Support with no PIs. Adama would bombard down the line and put in crosses while Messi would drop deeper than Adama and try to cut inside more often than he'd go to byline simply because of his PPMs and the fact that his teamwork, while good at 14, means he will look to play outside the role every now and then.

[CalumF]

I dont use Twitter. How do I get to see these clips and anything Miles is showing? Should be put on the forum before social media sources no!!

[Mikal]

1 minute ago, rosque said:

But the way that 2 players play as Winger-Support with no PIs can differ wildly based on attributes and PPMs. I assume that this is to give a rough idea of what the role does. Messi and Adama Traore would play wildly differently as Winger-Support with no PIs. Adama would bombard down the line and put in crosses while Messi would drop deeper than Adama and try to cut inside more often than he'd go to byline simply because of his PPMs and the fact that his teamwork, while good at 14, means he will look to play outside the role every now and then.

Then why include the animations at all if we're just going to use that logic? They should give a general idea of what to expect from the role (or a rough idea as you mentioned anyway). An Inside Forward on support will generally look to take up X position, an Inside Forward on attack will generally look to take up Y position. It is redundant to have the same Central Midfield role animation for all of defend, support, attack and automatic.

[-Jef-]

That's exactly my point. To give a rough idea of what the role does.

[Mikal]

10 minutes ago, rosque said:

That's exactly my point. To give a rough idea of what the role does.

I'm suggesting that the lack of animation per duty does not give a rough idea of what the role does because you don't just pick a role (outside of the sole duty roles), and by having different duties you are acknowledging they have different purposes. How can one animation cover all of defend, support and attack for a central midfielder? I asked whether anyone was aware if there was in fact a different animation per duty or if there is just one per role regardless of available duties.

Edit: while I agree some roles can generally perform similarly, I don't think this is the case for all; fullbacks have defend, support and attack, central defenders have defend, stopper, cover etc.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Mikal

[-Jef-]

But I'm saying that it would be impossible to cover everything a role+duty does, supported by me giving an example of Messi and Adama playing vastly differently in same role and duty.  So giving a rough idea to what the player in that role should do is good for newer fans and those who are not as apt in tactics as some of the more experienced people around here. Same for other roles! You can put CR7 as AP-A on left wing and he'd still score and be a threat to the goal because of his attributes, his low work rate and his PPMs. I think that the bigger problem is that many players would think that CR7 is IF-A through and through but in reality AP-A is a role that attracts the ball and I'd want as much ball in Cristiano's feet as I can get so it would be a perfect role for him especially with his passing being good enough to create chances, imo. The problem is that many people do not realize that PPMs and attributes shape how a player plays within a role and that roles are basically guidelines to a footballer to how he should play it. Guidetofm.com, and iirc FM as well, define Teamwork as

Quote

How closely a player follows his tactical instructions and how aware he is of the positions and movements of his teammates.

Players with higher Teamwork will play better as a unit, while a player with lower Teamwork will make more selfish decisions, such as shooting at goal instead of passing to a teammate in a better position.

If you put Messi as Poacher, a role where a player sits on shoulder of defense, he will still come deep to get the ball and he will still dribble around. And you cannot encapsulate that within 3 seconds of quick animations. You can have the most perfect tactic in the world but players will deviate from it if they have low teamwork.

And thus I do think that these animations are sufficient to give a rough idea alongside the written description of what a role does.  

 

 

And I can only thank God and Miles that role suitability circle is finally gone!  Think that that was no1 reason for failed tactics  

Edited October 29, 2020 by rosque

[Mikal]

6 minutes ago, rosque said:

But I'm saying that it would be impossible to cover everything a role+duty does, supported by me giving an example of Messi and Adama playing vastly differently in same role and duty.  So giving a rough idea to what the player in that role should do is good for newer fans and those who are not as apt in tactics as some of the more experienced people around here. Same for other roles! You can put CR7 as AP-A on left wing and he'd still score and be a threat to the goal because of his attributes, his low work rate and his PPMs. I think that the bigger problem is that many players would think that CR7 is IF-A through and through but in reality AP-A is a role that attracts the ball and I'd want as much ball in Cristiano's feet as I can get so it would be a perfect role for him especially with his passing being good enough to create chances, imo. The problem is that many people do not realize that PPMs and attributes shape how a player plays within a role and that roles are basically guidelines to a footballer to how he should play it. Guidetofm.com, and iirc FM as well, define Teamwork as

If you put Messi as Poacher, a role where a player sits on shoulder of defense, he will still come deep to get the ball and he will still dribble around. And you cannot encapsulate that within 3 seconds of quick animations. You can have the most perfect tactic in the world but players will deviate from it if they have low teamwork.

And thus I do think that these animations are sufficient to give a rough idea alongside the written description of what a role does.  

 

 

And I can only thank God and Miles that role suitability circle is finally gone!  Think that that was no1 reason for failed tactics  

It's not supposed to cover everything, that would be asinine and impossible, but it should cover what the role + duty are supposed to represent (how the player is instructed to perform) for a neutral footballer. As mentioned, some of the roles and duties will perform similarly, but many others won't. You keep convoluting the idea by throwing in player X will do this no matter what because of Y PPM and Z attribute, which is true, but not pertinent to this discussion; we could also say the same about the role descriptions and even the pre-set tactics animations. We can discuss the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of PPMs and certain attributes for specific roles and duties, but that, to me, is a different conversation entirely.

Nobody needs to be shown what their specific player will actually do in the role + duty selected, that's for watching and analysing the match itself (and then make adjustments based on the characteristics of said player), but what people (notably new players) will want to know is what can be expected from the role + duty; not what Messi would do differently to Traore, or that Ronaldo will still score goals at wingback.

If I was a new player and I wasn't sure what duty I wanted for my Central Midfielder, these animations could help indicate what direction I wanted to go in (otherwise how can I differentiate between the duties when I'm being shown the same thing, which would likely be contradictory to some of the duty descriptions). If I select defend, I'd probably see the player stay back while the play progresses forward, if I select support I'd likely see my player more involved in build up, and if I select attack, I'd see my player make more final third contributions/runs. For the purposes of these animations it does not matter who the player is that's playing there - that's the job of the manager to make sure the player in itself is suitable for that role + duty. 

I, personally, do not think there is a one-size-fits-all animation for a number of different roles we currently have in the game. Of course, I've not seen all of the selected role and duty animations, so I refer back to my original point of if anybody was aware if it's one per role or one per duty.

[gunner86]

38 minutes ago, rosque said:

And I can only thank God and Miles that role suitability circle is finally gone!  Think that that was no1 reason for failed tactics  

But they’ve just replaced it with stars. Cue threads of why doesn’t my 3.5 star IW create as many chances as my 2 star IW

[-Jef-]

1 minute ago, gunner86 said:

But they’ve just replaced it with stars. Cue threads of why doesn’t my 3.5 star IW create as many chances as my 2 star IW

It's much better than seeing a dynamic playmaker have red circle as RPM but he is perfectly adequate for that role!

[gunner86]

Just now, rosque said:

It's much better than seeing a dynamic playmaker have red circle as RPM but he is perfectly adequate for that role!

Oh yeah. Undoubtedly. 
But that doesn’t stop people not understanding them

[-Jef-]

3 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

Oh yeah. Undoubtedly. 
But that doesn’t stop people not understanding them

A lot of people do not understand a lot of stuff. 

 

Thankfully we have knowledgeable people like @Rashidi to tell us the secrets.

[StevehFC]

2 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

Yeah that's the eventual plan. Still a fair few to come yet, so waiting until we've got the set

. Perfect. 

[someone21]

Is ME really such a game-breaker? I have played FM since 2005, and I was plain simulation. The squad building and creating the "cheat" tactic was the fun. I think many users are like similar, who are under-represented on this official forum.

 

[destmez]

44 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

But they’ve just replaced it with stars. Cue threads of why doesn’t my 3.5 star IW create as many chances as my 2 star IW

I agree its more realistic now 👍

[kingking]

I hope Miles can tell us if there are any new updates to A.I soon . 

 

Such as A.I being more creative, risky and aggressive on their tactics, for example once in a while i want A.I to use "VERY ATTACKING" and HIGH LINE AND INTENSE PRESS when facing opponent that is better than them or when they are losing a match or when they cannot break a parked bus against weaker sides.

 

Also occasionally I want A.I to park the bus when winning matches and it's the 80th minute to try and frustrate the opponent.

Lastly I want A.I to actively try to improve and hire more staff. I notice lots of good staff staying unemployed for ages without A.I hiring them.

 

One can only hope and dream 🙁

Edited October 29, 2020 by kingking

[bobbyb12345]

33 minutes ago, someone21 said:

Is ME really such a game-breaker? I have played FM since 2005, and I was plain simulation. The squad building and creating the "cheat" tactic was the fun. I think many users are like similar, who are under-represented on this official forum.

 

I just don't want to have to clench when I see an opposition player 25 yards from goal. Or on a corner.

[ViG1980]

Yeh I agree. I thought FM2020 outside of the ME was really, really good, even in the long term saves. Can it be improved, yes but it was the best FM ever from that standpoint.

Now the ME.....that's another story. 1. Sort out the dreary pitches (should be an easy fix) and 2. Sort out the myriad of other issues that everyone here as mentioned (a little more difficult!).

[bielsadidnothingwrong]

4 hours ago, KingCanary said:

Hiding attributes and replacing it with text like 'very fast' or 'good finisher' would be much less realistic in my opinion.

Klopp won't just have Salah and TAA both down as 'very fast' he'll know exactly how fast across certain distances etc. He'll know if Firminho have a better performance v XG rather than something saying both are 'excellent finishers.'

also adding this info in TRAINING REPORTS from assistants and coaches; "hey gaffer, X CDM hit a new personal best in the weight room, he looks ready to take on aerial duels more" or "looks like our striker is struggling to focus in this week's shadow play sessions, maybe consider starting Y youngster in his place."

[grade]

3 hours ago, CalumF said:

I dont use Twitter. How do I get to see these clips and anything Miles is showing? Should be put on the forum before social media sources no!!

You don't need a twitter account to see Miles' Tweets. Just on google write Miles Jacobson Twitter and should be the first link that appears.

The only down side, is you can't post a tweet i Miles Twitter account, you will need an account for that.

[DementedHammer]

A simple solution might be just to change the visible attribute scale from 20 to 10 or maybe even 5. Then you can still see differences between players, but it isn't as fine-grained. You could perhaps even replace the actual numbers with the star system. (Not that I'd want that personally. I'd prefer the colour system mentioned above - but it would have to be configurable to account for the 7% or so of colourblind users.) 

Edited October 29, 2020 by DementedHammer

[Exius]

4 minutes ago, DementedHammer said:

A simple solution might be just to change the visible attribute scale from 20 to 10 or maybe even 5. Then you can still see differences between players, but it isn't as fine-grained. You could perhaps even replace the actual numbers with the star system. 

That's exactly what I suggested:

 

And I've been doing such mods since FM 2009 or FM 2010. I hope that someday they'll add it, as an option at least, so everybody will play as he wants. I guess, this is something that's very easy to add to the game.

[bielsadidnothingwrong]

It would be beneficial to regroup the attributes like @Exius suggests.

The biggest being splitting the mentals into "tactics/personality" so that things like "positioning, off the ball, anticipation, and maybe creativity" would be categorized as "tactics" and would be very dynamic whereas "determination, workrate, aggression" and the like would be personality-based. Tactical mentals can both increase and decrease by determining factors like morale, locker room cohesion, tactical familiarity etc. Jordan Henderson knows what to do in Klopps system, his anticipation reflects this. Takumi Minamino is not so familiar, so his impact is lessened on the pitch. However, that doesn't mean Taki can't develop those attributes on the training pitch which is just one real-life example.

Edited October 29, 2020 by bielsadidnothingwrong

[isignedupfornorealreason]

The role animations interest me, but I think they may be undercooked?

I'd like to see with/without (WIBBLE WOBBLE anyone? >_>) animations. 

But it is a start, and I think the next step is to expand on them, so you might in the future be able to get a pitch animation in the tactics creator, that can play in slow motion and show you what kind of movement you should expect to see in the match from the selection of all eleven roles. It would be able to highlight some of the more obvious clashes, such as players occupying the same space etc, and that would be as far as I'd take it as anything further would probably be ridiculously complex. 

Having a full tactical movement display would allow people to visualise any issues/benefits - maybe, and it is something I advocate for because a lot of people struggle to read the play in actual matches. Having something show the template out of a match situation might be beneficial, then again, perhaps it will muddy the waters too much? Food for thought perhaps?

 

I do agree that the animations need to match what actually unfolds though - I think someone already said about hoofball happening when the animation shows nice football etc. 

[Viking]

Speaking of suggestions: I don't mind the %:s being removed from match sharpness and such, but I'd much rather have text than icons to display it. IE "looking well rested" rather than a smiling green emoji. Most such things tend to remind me of cheap mobile games aimed at kids.

[-Jef-]

53 minutes ago, Viking said:

Speaking of suggestions: I don't mind the %:s being removed from match sharpness and such, but I'd much rather have text than icons to display it. IE "looking well rested" rather than a smiling green emoji. Most such things tend to remind me of cheap mobile games aimed at kids.

I'd rather have an icon there. Makes it much easier to cram a lot of info on the screen instead of long ass texts.

[rafaelbenitez]

1 hour ago, Viking said:

Speaking of suggestions: I don't mind the %:s being removed from match sharpness and such, but I'd much rather have text than icons to display it. IE "looking well rested" rather than a smiling green emoji. Most such things tend to remind me of cheap mobile games aimed at kids.

If you hover over the icon it displays what it means:

I think it looks neat and doesn't take up space.

[Johnny Ace]

The role suitability green circle thingy's gone?

[destmez]

3 minutes ago, Viking said:

Speaking of suggestions: I don't mind the %:s being removed from match sharpness and such, but I'd much rather have text than icons to display it. IE "looking well rested" rather than a smiling green emoji. Most such things tend to remind me of cheap mobile games aimed at kids.

 

1 minute ago, Johnny Ace said:

The role suitability green circle thingy's gone?

yeah

 

1 hour ago, Viking said:

Speaking of suggestions: I don't mind the %:s being removed from match sharpness and such, but I'd much rather have text than icons to display it. IE "looking well rested" rather than a smiling green emoji. Most such things tend to remind me of cheap mobile games aimed at kids.

 

 

it would be interesting to add a language body, (but on the knees, run differently) on the ground, different running animation someone who has played 80 min does not have the same acceleration as another who has been playing for 5 min

[Mars_Blackmon]

38 minutes ago, rosque said:

I'd rather have an icon there. Makes it much easier to cram a lot of info on the screen instead of long ass texts.

The further away it looks from a spread sheet, the better.

[-Jef-]

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

The further away it looks from a spread sheet, the better.

Disagree

[kingking]

17 minutes ago, rosque said:

Disagree

I disagree with you

Honestly humans are thought to be very efficient visual learners.

Icons have their place in FM as well as data (percentages, numbers).

In particular, Icons are very efficient way to compress complex information and communicate complex ideas efficiently for example GREEN = GOOD, YELLOW = OK, RED = BAD.

more iconography and less text is not a bad thing and has many benefits such as quicker interpretation (for some areas such as condition/sharpness or side bar menus).

the best of both worlds is an icon/graphic and hovering over it will display text or data for some areas of the game such as condition/sharpness.

Edited October 30, 2020 by kingking

[andu1]

48 minutes ago, rafaelbenitez said:

If you hover over the icon it displays what it means:

I think it looks neat and doesn't take up space.

Finally that formation is correctly spelled by the game, 4-3-3_DM Wide, not the confusing naming of FM 19-20, 4-1-4-1 DM Wide

[-Jef-]

20 minutes ago, kingking said:

I disagree with you

Honestly humans are thought to be very efficient visual learners.

Icons have their place in FM as well as data (percentages, numbers).

In particular, Icons are very efficient way to compress complex information and communicate complex ideas efficiently for example GREEN = GOOD, YELLOW = OK, RED = BAD.

more iconography and less text is not a bad thing and has many benefits such as quicker interpretation (for some areas such as condition/sharpness or side bar menus).

the best of both worlds is an icon/graphic and hovering over it will display text or data for some areas of the game such as condition/sharpness.

Then, I guess, you don't know that you can put any number in excel as icon. Which is what these icons for condition are like!

[Impacto]

20 hours ago, KingCanary said:

Hiding attributes and replacing it with text like 'very fast' or 'good finisher' would be much less realistic in my opinion.

Klopp won't just have Salah and TAA both down as 'very fast' he'll know exactly how fast across certain distances etc. He'll know if Firminho have a better performance v XG rather than something saying both are 'excellent finishers.'

Attributes are thing because in the game you can't see your players every day like IRL. IRL coaches know their players perfectly, who is slightly better finisher, passer, defender etc. That is why the attributes are there and I don't want them changed.

That being said, the issue is when you can see the attributes of players from other clubs with ease. You might know Neymar is a great dribbler, but there is no way for you to know little details the way you would if you training with him every day. Yes, there is an option to mask attributes, but that doesn't work very well IMO. 

And finally, in recent FMs attributes matter less and less and I feel it doesn't matter anymore who the player is. You get the same thing from Messi and another random technical attacker with a great flair. I remember in earlier FMs, some players just stood out. They had a certain thing that other players didn't. No idea how FM did that, but it was true. I remember so many players in FM 08, 10 and 12 that played in a way that no other player could do. Now I feel it doesn't matter who i get. As long as he is a decent player, the name, the style, the personality even doesn't matter. Personality just seems to matter in player develepoment, but that's it. In-game I see Resolute players being nervous, proffessional players being complacent and etc. 

Anyway, rant over  

Looking forward to seeing the ME and AI changes(if there are any...). I might come across a bit negative, but I've said it before and I'll say it again - FM is a brilliant game, the best of it's kind and I love it, I just think it's going a bit backwards and it could be waaay better.