Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

[Sharkn20]

48 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

Just putting this out here, a long time player's feedback. Number 1 and 2 are the ME, not surprisignly:

 

So true 🤣🤣🤣

Edited January 12, 2020 by Sharkn20

[erjonpepa2017]

1 hour ago, KUBI said:

It's possible to download it:

https://www.ubackup.com/windows-7/upgrade-windows-7-32-bit-to-64-bit.html

my computer its X86 😔

[bleventozturk]

Since 1on1's are missed most of the time, if you only watch the goals in AI vs AI matches, majority of them are still scored the same way as in FM 19, which are crosses, crosses, set piece, crosses, set piece... SI will hopefully manage not to take the through balls completely out of the game, which would produce another dull ME.

[KUBI]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb erjonpepa2017:

my computer its X86 😔

You can still play older versions of FM, but unfortunately for FM 20 you would need a new computer. 

[Nick_CB]

I'm in season 3 with a team considered weak in Spain(Second Division). Hired great defenders, I'm playing with high lines and the long balls haven't caused me any problems, I'm really surprised. My center forward despite losing a lot of 1vs1 is my team's top scorer for the second year in a row

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, Sharkn20 said:

So true 🤣🤣🤣

The amount of people who think the staff responsibility section is only one screen is frightening. He goes on about it being colour coded...it literally is within the individual sections. That main overview is just that. An overview.

Also, right clicking the Dev centre gives you easy access to all your youth teams. 

He's the same as Lollujo, plays the game for a whole year, and has no idea what half the buttons do. Lollujo still hasn't realised there's a quick sub button on match days. 

[Tony Wright 747]

1 hour ago, KUBI said:

Because it's not that easy as it looks. If you want to record good sounds, you need to do it in a stadium. And for that you need a permission and a license to use it in the game. 

There are good stadium sounds to download from the internet

[erjonpepa2017]

1 hour ago, KUBI said:

You can still play older versions of FM, but unfortunately for FM 20 you would need a new computer. 

only if I knew it before I bought the fm 2020 tho . thnx very much for all the info 

[JordanMilly]

13 minutes ago, erjonpepa2017 said:

only if I knew it before I bought the fm 2020 tho . thnx very much for all the info 

If you bought it direct from Steam, you should be able to contact them for a refund.

[rjferguson90]

7 hours ago, j4y_z said:

Yes. So why didn't you try out the demo before buying?

I play almost exclusively with custom databases, which the demo doesn't allow you to use. I bought the full game and it has all sorts of problems loading custom dbs - the fault is the game's, not the databases themselves. There was no way of knowing this without buying the full game. As someone else also mentioned, the ME used in the demo was an old version, even by Miles' own admission so this argument is moot in terms of talking about the ME.

[rjferguson90]

9 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

You'll probably find that there's nothing to support that it's totally unsatisfactory to "most" users, given that:

1) a hell of a lot of people are playing the game every day (and currently, over 76,000 people are playing it, putting it in the Steam top 10 (https://store.steampowered.com/stats/);

2) The reviews for the game, even on Steam, are "Mostly Positive", which is pretty decent;

3) The number of people on the forum is a tiny fraction of the total number of players, and there are a substantial number of people even here on these forums that are happily playing the game.

Are there issues? Yes, SI have admitted as such. Is the ME "totally unsatisfactory"? That's entirely subjective depending on what a given player is wanting, and in my opinion, I'm having fun with it, I've adapted tactics to reduce the issues until there's a patch, and I'm enjoying the game. Others may not, which is an entirely legitimate view, but individuals posting hundreds of times about the same 2-3 issues, and saying the same things, isn't going to make the patch come any quicker.

@KUBI posted an option that some people may want to take. Please don't bite his head off for it.

Not every person who is unsatisfied with the game will visit these forums, in fact most will not. It doesn't mean those people aren't frustrated or think it's unsatisfactory either. It could be in the Steam top 1, it wouldn't make an iota of difference of how poor this game is in it's current state. The whole situation has to be looked contextually (in terms of this is a long-running franchise, not a standalone game), and this includes you saying 'individuals posting the same 2-3 issues'. I mean, it's the dedicated feedback thread. Are we just not supposed to post here now as people are reporting the same issue? With all due respect, I find bringing up the total number of players quite disingenuous. I won't use the word 'majority', but there is definitely a silent portion who people on here seem to be disregarding. Using your logic, look at the posts constructively criticising the game in this thread are highly upvoted, those defending it have few to no upvotes. Does that not count for anything now?

I've been buying FM most years since 2009, and there are still some problems that were present back then that still have not been fixed. The Oceana Champions League has been broken for lord knows how many years, the Asian Games are broken, weather hasn't changed in years despite frequently being reported as being incorrect. Player interaction for at least two editions was broken and was only finally fixed to an acceptable standard last year. Mac support is absolutely woeful. Regens genuinely looked better on FM12. That's not even touching on the ME. After ten years of play it is unsatisfactory.

It may have been said hundreds of times before but that is because it seems to be falling on deaf ears. At this point in the franchise, it is totally unfathomable to most as to how the game can be released in the state it was (especially the ME). Every year now the ME is only really widely viewed as satisfactory by forum users (the hardcore players) by the March patch. How is this acceptable? I understand that it's a coding nightmare but this happens every year now, and as someone else has suggested, the oversight of obvious bugs points to the use of aggregate testing, which in FM now just doesn't cut the mustard. Woodwork hits, CCCs, 'getting FM'd' - they may look fine in aggregate testing, but the reality is that it's broken. Woodwork in particular - I've personally done tests myself and reported back on these forums, but is anything ever done? No. That's why people post about the same issues over and over again - because to me it seems like they're falling on deaf ears. It is a management simulator, so when the ME isn't up to scratch the entire game is compromised. I just think suggesting ways to exploit the ME in it's current state is a bit tone deaf, I don't want to come off as personally attacking anyone.

No doubt the same people will come back and argue the price, but for a game with an RRP of £40, I will double down and say it is unsatisfactory - especially given that SI now is not some bedroom studio, has years of expertise and we are 35 (?) years into the franchise. To release a game this far in with an ME that sometimes barely resembles football, and worse, barely runs on my laptop despite meeting all system requirements and then receiving little help, is unacceptable.

I am not personally attacking anyone who works or volunteers for the company, I am just trying to explain the frustration. In my humble opinion, SI would greatly diffuse the frustration by looking at some of their methods both in testing and user communication. Keeping users up to date on release of a patch would do wonders, I feel and placate some of the - admittedly occasionally vitriolic - criticism.

Edited January 13, 2020 by rjferguson90

[bleventozturk]

Finally had to go back to FM 17. Having a blast with that ME, seeing all kinds of attacking moves and goals. I just wish that the newgens and the AI player development was half as good as FM 20  If you have that game, I strongly recommend taking a break from FM 20 until the ME issues are fixed. The ME in FM 17 felt like a breath of fresh air lol. I really tried to accept this latest ME with it's deficiencies, and for a while I enjoyed it within the confines of my tactical setup which produced better football than most I see on youtube, but at the end of the day the attacking moves, defenders' reactions and the goals created are the bread and butter of this game, and it just isn't there still, since FM 19. The ME has fundamentally changed with the introduction of the new TC, which channels the attacking moves towards the wide areas on a consistent basis, because every team defends too narrow. The only option left for central play are those long balls. They should be there for the sake of variety, but they should not be generated due to zombi center backs. When they are successful, the 1on1's should be scored a lot more often. That will be a start to get things back on track. Improved defenders reaction should hopefully also reduce the number of goals from crosses and set pieces. You might think that that will reduce the overall number of goals drastically, and it will, but if you can compensate that with the significantly increased 1on1 conversion rate, things should be fine.

Forget statistics, soak tests for a minute. While watching the  matches, if you find yourself getting more hopeful for a goal when your winger is about to cross the ball, vs your striker being 1on1 with the keeper, you know that it is just wrong.

Edited January 13, 2020 by bleventozturk

[davehanson]

2 hours ago, rjferguson90 said:

 

Really good post.

I wanted to post last night in response to @JordanMillward_1 post but wasn't sure how to word it, you have put it the best I have seen on here.

But just a further point with regards to point 2 you make @JordanMillward_1: The steam 'reviews' are really skewed. I bought the game and have left a review on there, however it doesn't count though and isn't counted towards the overall feedback percentage as I didn't buy the game from Steam. Only reviews from users who bought the game directly from Steam count towards their rating feedback. 

Now, we obviously don't know how many people bought the game from Steam compared to other selling sites, but I would take an educated guess and suggest that most long term players did not buy directly from Steam. I have been playing CM/FM from day one and have only ever once bought directly from Steam, that was when SI were offering the loyalty discount. Other times I have bought through FM Scout, SortitoutSI etc etc. 

And your point about the community here being a tiny percentage of the total players may not be correct either. How do you know? We, as posters, get told off by the mods for spreading false information but I don't see how you could possibly know how many of this community bought the game. There are what, over 330,000 users here? If half of them bought the game that is about 10% of the sales. I'm just saying the community may not be a tiny %.

[Bry]

15 hours ago, DennisVT1 said:

Edit: Forgot a funny part:

There was a game with unrealistic events and result. I realoaded 4 times, happened all over again. Not the same things, but similar. Lost all four against a weaker team. I tried to change a few things every time, nothing worked.

I don't go along with the idea that reloading a match multiple times should produce markedly different results. (However, I know there are exceptions)

Reloading is basically using a time-machine, taking you back to exactly the same point, with everything that happened before leading to it. Your team is a sum of everything that you've done over the past weeks/months. That means that the players are no more likely to be in a better mental state, be more prepared or play better just because you reloaded it. Sure, you can make tactical changes, but this is only one comparatively small part of affecting one result in isolation.

If you reloaded a save a few weeks prior then you would gradually see more divergence and only then, IMO, should you expect to see greatly different outcomes in results.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Bry

[j4y_z]

4 hours ago, rjferguson90 said:

I play almost exclusively with custom databases, which the demo doesn't allow you to use. I bought the full game and it has all sorts of problems loading custom dbs - the fault is the game's, not the databases themselves. There was no way of knowing this without buying the full game. As someone else also mentioned, the ME used in the demo was an old version, even by Miles' own admission so this argument is moot in terms of talking about the ME.

You don't need custom databases to try out the ME. You won't start a long term save on the demo anyway. 

As I understand, the version mismatch was only within a short period of time. 

[rjferguson90]

3 minutes ago, j4y_z said:

You don't need custom databases to try out the ME. You won't start a long term save on the demo anyway. 

As I understand, the version mismatch was only within a short period of time. 

That wasn't the point I was making at all... I'm saying that as the demo doesn't allow you to use custom databases, I had no way of knowing before forking out for the game that implementing editor data into FM20 is a bit of a nightmare. If I had known that before then I wouldn't have bought the game at all. The ME issues are totally separate.

[samuelawachie]

14 hours ago, Travis Bickle said:

The responses to the minimum spec discussion are laughable. 

You can buy a laptop for £200 that has 4GB RAM and a laptop for £330 that has 8GB RAM. Anyone buying a laptop today looking to get some use out of it will be buying 8 or 16GB RAM.

My own laptop has 32GB RAM. 

I have never, not in years, heard of someone buying a laptop with RAM as low as 2GB. 

Windows XP, 1GB RAM, Intel Pentium 2.. Don't diss the older users here man.. 

Anyway, just kidding. My specs are much better than that but don't lose sight of the reality that not everyone has 32GB Ram, Ultra Quad Core, Hyper ventilated, liquid cooling machines. Lol. Calm down man. Order! 

Edited January 13, 2020 by samuelawachie

[karanhsingh]

Does anyone else think that pace is massively over-powered in the game, which coupled with the zombie defending is actually leading to the high number of 1 on 1s? 

If you have someone pacy up front, as soon as they receive the ball they are through and no one can catch up. They also seem to take amazing first touches which get them through the last line of defense all too often. 

We know in reality that running with the ball is far harder than without it, but this doesn't seem to be reflected in-game. 

It's not like I have a world class player up-front, I have Adam Idah who is probably ability wise average for the Championship, but every game he's able to get through on goal minimum 3-4 times thanks to the above.

[FrazT]

I am sure that the issue with 1-1s is a combination of factors and certainly the reactions ( or lack of) of the DCs to a long through ball is certainly one of them

[Jesper9000]

4 hours ago, rjferguson90 said:

I am not personally attacking anyone who works or volunteers for the company, I am just trying to explain the frustration. In my humble opinion, SI would greatly diffuse the frustration by looking at some of their methods both in testing and user communication. Keeping users up to date on release of a patch would do wonders, I feel and placate some of the - admittedly occasionally vitriolic - criticism.

This is perfect summing up my frustration - the lack of communication with the community. The last update on the match engine fix is from before Christmas, where we told it should not be expect before New Year, and it is two weeks ago now. 

 

[duesouth]

4 hours ago, rjferguson90 said:

I am not personally attacking anyone who works or volunteers for the company, I am just trying to explain the frustration. In my humble opinion, SI would greatly diffuse the frustration by looking at some of their methods both in testing and user communication. Keeping users up to date on release of a patch would do wonders, I feel and placate some of the - admittedly occasionally vitriolic - criticism.

First, great post.

Secondly, this is basically what I said last week - if we knew which of the commonly reported problems are being worked on - and a rough timescale, it would take the sting out of things.  Most of us do understand (to a degree at least) that changes in the ME have domino effects - so are fine with it taking time to get right - but communication with us, to me would be better customer service - and reading through many pages of feedback, I would say needed.

Finally, FM19 was my first FM, which I didn't buy until February last year.  So, this was my first time buying the game on release.  For me, the issues with the current ME don't seem to have been helped by the fact the game was released in beta - and then in a very tight timeframe (2-3 weeks) had to be patched, which had knock-on effects.  I don't know if SI could look at a life cycle change - a longer beta, or a wider alpha more for the ME than anything.  There are enough sensible people on here who would test an alpha for nothing (I for one would - and I wouldn't care if the rest of the game wasn't finished) because we want a great game as much as SI.  It just seemed there was such a flood of bug reports during the beta, it was impossible for SI to get through them all.  With the ME specifically - it must be so complex and having to change it in such a short period between beta and main release must have been really tough - so it would seem sensible to give the ME team more time to get it right earlier in the life cycle of the product.  I'm sure the life cycle is pretty set so many years into the game - but experiencing it for the first time, that's my view from the outside.  Right now, FM20 doesn't feel like a finished product - and that's a shame, because I think inside there is a superb game.  I would say that's a big source of frustration - because you can almost touch this great game - but it's just being let down right now by the issues reported over the huge number of posts in this thread.

[j4y_z]

1 hour ago, rjferguson90 said:

That wasn't the point I was making at all... I'm saying that as the demo doesn't allow you to use custom databases, I had no way of knowing before forking out for the game that implementing editor data into FM20 is a bit of a nightmare. If I had known that before then I wouldn't have bought the game at all. The ME issues are totally separate.

Ah, sorry, I misinterpreted, then. 

[Mitja]

Given the state of current ME the last thing we want is rushed patch, unfortunatly. Don't forget it could easily be the last one. Hope I'm wrong though.  

[KUBI]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Tony Wright 747:

There are good stadium sounds to download from the internet

You cannot use it in a commercial game without permission and license.

[Sisamom]

vor 49 Minuten schrieb Jesper9000:

This is perfect summing up my frustration - the lack of communication with the community. The last update on the match engine fix is from before Christmas, where we told it should not be expect before New Year, and it is two weeks ago now. 

 

Yes you are absolutely right. The way SI communicates  with the users is not good at all.

There are other users who mentioned that before but i saw no response at all (please correct me if i'm wrong).

Maybe the problem is, that SI is the only competitor on that market in the moment and feel that they can lean back a little bit now.

[Novem9]

17 минут назад, Sisamom сказал:

Maybe the problem is, that SI is the only competitor on that market in the moment and feel that they can lean back a little bit now.

Who is public relations department in SI? As I know Neil Brock, Seb Wassel and other staff who write there are sometimes - they are all developers.
If Paradox developed FM20 for example, they annonced Club Vision in 6 months before release  Just to realize - in December they shared Stellaris Dev Diary #164

I wait new DLC in February and I knew almost all details about this in few months ago. They are not ideal example too (We don't need ideal), but much better example of developer's feedback who create deep games with looped gameplay

Edited January 13, 2020 by Novem9

[battles_atlas]

12 hours ago, MatthewS17 said:

I'm getting rather tired of seeing these types of posts. Not because it affects me, but because it is so entitled, self revolving and ignorant. That's not an insult. It's how it comes across. 

First of all, thousands of people play this game around the world. Not everyone works with pounds and not everyone is living in a country with a healthy economy and decent paying job. You have no idea how expensive this is in some countries. 

For example, laptops in my country are phenomally expensive and a 4GB laptop is usually equal to the average monthly salary. 

That's if you're buying one with just a simple integrated graphics card. Prices go up by 50% of that total price for one with 8GB of RAM. 

Not everybody is in the same situation as you and it is insensitive and elitist of someone to think so. 

So, some consideration is needed here. 

To me this discussion is a red herring. What is the motivation for the argument here - that FM is being held back by designing for low performance computers? That seems to me a convenient excuse for FM being held back by lack of investment. I'd love to imagine that SI would bring out this mind blowing engine upgrade but for the fact that you'd need 8gb ram and an 6 core processor, but the fact that every year the existing ME isn't patched to be working as intended until halfway through the year tells me otherwise. I don't think computer specs have anything much to do with it. Besides if that really were the case, the simple solution is to have a Legacy setting which basically gives you a *fully functioning* version of the existing engine which is frozen from that point on, whilst the investment goes into the new engine for the increasing number of machines that can run it.

[battles_atlas]

11 hours ago, KUBI said:

Because it's not that easy as it looks. If you want to record good sounds, you need to do it in a stadium. And for that you need a permission and a license to use it in the game. 

I mean... come on! A few years back I bought a car racing game called Wreckfest, which was being made by a small studio with no big publisher behind them. I remember in one of their updates (something which SI seemingly only does the fortnight before they ship a new game, but anyway...) that they talked about recording real car crashes on a test track, to get accurate audio. Again, this was a studio with almost no resources, crashing cars to get good audio. Sorry, but the idea that SI can't put in good stadium sounds is flat out silly. Sure if it was on a club by club basis, with audio from that specific stadium, and team specific songs, it would be a hell of an undertaking even just to do the big leagues (though note it would also be amazing!). But all we're talking about here is generic recordings from say tiny, small and big crowds. Stadiums which are covered with microphones every week anyway! Its an absolutely trivial job for a game with the sales figures that FM has, and once done properly it shouldn't need updating for basically ever. I think the audio in this year's FM is awful (one bug I have had multiple times is the home crowd booing the home team every time they touch it (regardless of the scoreline)), but even when its not bugged its still pretty crap.

[Neil Brock]

36 minutes ago, Sisamom said:

Yes you are absolutely right. The way SI communicates  with the users is not good at all.

There are other users who mentioned that before but i saw no response at all (please correct me if i'm wrong).

Maybe the problem is, that SI is the only competitor on that market in the moment and feel that they can lean back a little bit now.

Before Christmas we stated there were a number of areas within the match engine which were on the radar for us to look at - https://community.sigames.com/topic/508768-match-engine-info-and-holiday-plans/

In this thread last week I posted:

Quote

We're always working on the game across all areas with the aim of improving it and fixing issues with any update. We're unable to give exact time frames in regards to updates/hotfixes due to the nature of software development, but if I'm able to provide more info at any point I'll do so. 

Thanks. 

We are working towards an update with the aim of improving the experience of FM, be that through gameplay, performance or match. We hope to do this as soon as we're able to, but given the complexities of certain areas of the game this isn't something we can rush. We don't want to come out and say 'we will release an update on x date' then our Dev or QA team finds an issue which prevents us from meeting that deadline. As always, as soon as we're in a position to update the game we will do so. 

Thanks. 

[Tyburn]

33 minutes ago, battles_atlas said:

I mean... come on! A few years back I bought a car racing game called Wreckfest, which was being made by a small studio with no big publisher behind them. I remember in one of their updates (something which SI seemingly only does the fortnight before they ship a new game, but anyway...) that they talked about recording real car crashes on a test track, to get accurate audio. Again, this was a studio with almost no resources, crashing cars to get good audio. Sorry, but the idea that SI can't put in good stadium sounds is flat out silly. Sure if it was on a club by club basis, with audio from that specific stadium, and team specific songs, it would be a hell of an undertaking even just to do the big leagues (though note it would also be amazing!). But all we're talking about here is generic recordings from say tiny, small and big crowds. Stadiums which are covered with microphones every week anyway! Its an absolutely trivial job for a game with the sales figures that FM has, and once done properly it shouldn't need updating for basically ever. I think the audio in this year's FM is awful (one bug I have had multiple times is the home crowd booing the home team every time they touch it (regardless of the scoreline)), but even when its not bugged its still pretty crap.

This. Audio in FM has ALWAYS been awful. Not just the sounds themselves but the syncing. Seeing as immersion is what it’s all about surely matchday sounds are a huge part of achieving that? They’ve just been forgotten. Like, forever. First box I tick on any new version is play without sound. It’s been that bad for so long. Licensing is a poor excuse, as it’s not simply the sounds themselves that are the problem. I’ve never played any other game with such awful sound syncing. The small studio excuse is laughable tbh.

Edited January 13, 2020 by sidslayer

[Kyznar]

20 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

We hope to do this as soon as we're able to, but given the complexities of certain areas of the game this isn't something we can rush.

I came up with a funny but imo relevant analogy while I was streaming last night for when we hear this from SI. Its like FM has become the NASA space project from the 60s/70s to modern day. Its like FM worked, it was great, we landed on the moon, the potential was insane in how far it could go. Years later it evolved and developed into a situation where we werent capable of landing on the moon like we once could. The process to achieve the desired results changed through their own doing/lack of doing.

The assumption being, Its as if SI no longer have the ability to understand what they created because it is "too complex" to tweak and optimise on the fly.

Might be a bit outlandish and stupid of me to say that, but its the consistent vibe/attitude that we passively get from the developers in combination with lack of communication on top of the player bases pure passion for the title that make us jump to strange but oddly correct analogies like this. 

Also Creative Assembly recently tweeted this level of communication about WH2:TW (Both under SEGA btw) "If you are on 1.8.2 for WARHAMMER II, please be aware that this beta will be shut down and made live at approximately 10AM Monday (13 Jan). The MP leaderboard fix will be the only fix in this update – however, we can confirm that there will be a patch before the next DLC."

No time frames for the big updates/DLC, but acknowledgement of how the next fixes/patches will be structured. Football Manager is "too complex" though to do this....

The player base needs to stop the mentality of "Football Manager has no direct rivals" because its allowing the Developers to potentially be complacent. They create video games in the same industry as all of the others, they should be held to the same ever demanding and changing standards.

[pheelf]

SI simply can't win.

If they engage with the community (like they did with the public beta testing branch) their staff get a torrent of abuse. If on the other hand they silently get on with the job of attempting to fix the issues in the ME they get accused of being distant and neglectful of their customers.

I've seen them being called incompetent, lazy, complacent among other things in this thread and people then wonder why they shut off and don't wish to engage. Who would respond positively to that?

As for the argument that SI should provide a running commentary on what they are fixing and how long they anticipate it taking. I support their stance of not doing that. Need I remind people that SI are under no obligation to patch the game at all. Imposing unnecessary deadlines on themselves only adds pressure and will often result in them rushing out patches which given the intricacies of the ME could end up doing more harm than good. Let them test their fixes thoroughly and release it when they are comfortable that it has resolved the bugs and hasn't caused any unwanted side issues.

This is where the public beta could have been useful if people actually viewed it for what it was, a way of SI getting more eyes on their ME by testing a multitude of different tactics within it but given the reaction they got from it they have since abandoned that idea so that now we are left with only internal testing.

1 hour ago, battles_atlas said:

To me this discussion is a red herring. What is the motivation for the argument here - that FM is being held back by designing for low performance computers? That seems to me a convenient excuse for FM being held back by lack of investment. I'd love to imagine that SI would bring out this mind blowing engine upgrade but for the fact that you'd need 8gb ram and an 6 core processor, but the fact that every year the existing ME isn't patched to be working as intended until halfway through the year tells me otherwise. I don't think computer specs have anything much to do with it. Besides if that really were the case, the simple solution is to have a Legacy setting which basically gives you a *fully functioning* version of the existing engine which is frozen from that point on, whilst the investment goes into the new engine for the increasing number of machines that can run it.

So, in your opinion, they should alienate large swathes of their customers to satisfy those with high end computers? If not that, then they should force people without high end computers to play on a match engine which isn't going to get updated?

Edited January 13, 2020 by pheelf

[themadsheep2001]

Finally finished my 10 seasons on comprehensive highlights:

Lots I really like about FM20 on and off the pitch, few bits I don't like:

• The transfers negotiation screen, where you click to go into more detail with the arrow is so small compared to the space used, should really be completely clickable. Tiny thing that annoys me irrationally
• The False 9: plays way too high, and is on shoulder too much. Movement should be identical to the Shadow Striker in FM19, living very deep pocket and making surging runs and passes from there
• Final third camped play: Forwards/wide forwards, particularly those on support, need to be dropping deep off the defensive line towards their midfield to receive the ball, too easy to get cut off otherwise, incidentally this would help forward central passes by giving them options here, and create headaches for packed defenses with give and go 1-2 passes, meaning there's more negative trade-off for being static and deep, and you actually have to defend that pocket in front of the defence
• Long balls, less the long balls, and more the lack of defensive reaction. Long balls should be less accurate and a lot more meat and drinking aerial wins for defenders. That would do a real job on that issue, while still having them as a threat and force high line teams to work for that high line
• Finishing - needs to be more varied; shooting earlier, curling round the keeper, rounding the keeper. The more elite the finisher, the more we should see this. Top strikers are that not because they finish clear cut chances, but they also find ways to finish the tough ones and they do that through the above.
• Crosses and long balls in the final are well overhit; crosses usually going back post or beyond, long balls trapping the receiver against the line, which leads to other issues -

1. Attacker overrunning the ball, leaving it behind and defender running off - buggy behaviour that needs squashing.
2. ball being played off for corner, which exacerbates the number of set pieces

• On set pieces, as mentioned too many of them party because of the above, partly because players are too inclined to cross regardless off footedness, crossing instructions or support in the box. Inside forwards in particularly should be holding up to cut inside and drive into the box, or look to curl a shot in, or lay back for any onrushing support. Inverted wingers, should be looking to play in others or by time to curl in a cross off their stronger foot. You've also got too many set pieces because of an inclination for defensive players to clear for a corner, when in fact defensive players should be looking to avoid corners by means.
• Defensive headers need fixing again, wonder if this has re-occured off the back of tweaking headers in general..
• Players running in space with the ball, especially when on the counter or with their weaker foot on the side, should be running a lot more directly at goal rather than down the wing, again this would cut down the number of set pieces occurring
• This one is more of a feature request: highlights should not start with the free kick. You absolutely need to see what leads to the free kick. it makes for much more seamless highlights and it shows the player much more tactical information.
• Offsides - too many of them where players make runs far too early and then don't come back, that needs tweaking. Also take them out of highlights, unless they lead to disallowed goals or great chances, its boring to watch

[Bry]

4 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

This. Audio in FM has ALWAYS been awful. Not just the sounds themselves but the syncing. Seeing as immersion is what it’s all about surely matchday sounds are a huge part of achieving that? They’ve just been forgotten. Like, forever. First box I tick on any new version is play without sound. It’s been that bad for so long. Licensing is a poor excuse, as it’s not simply the sounds themselves that are the problem. I’ve never played any other game with such awful sound syncing. The small studio excuse is laughable tbh.

I have to agree with this. I have the sound on all the time, because my PC doesn't have a dedicated graphics card and I have the graphics on almost minimum settings. So, I rely more on the sound for a little more immersion. 3 things that immediately come to mind are:

• The sound of the ball being kicked sometimes gets stuck in a loop and it sounds like a pinball machine.
• The crowd volume swells at the most bizarre moments, creating a psychedelic Phil Spector wall of sound, particularly during an action replay.
• The referee whistle is also inconsistent. Sometimes he violently blows for half/full-time like he's at sea and trying to get the attention of a lifeguard. Sometimes the match just finishes without so much as a peep.

As the poster quoted above said, it's not so much the sound 'quality', it's the implementation. It just feels very neglected and sloppy. 

I'm happy to post examples as a bug, but there doesn't seem to be a relevant subforum.

[Neil Brock]

33 minutes ago, Bry said:

I have to agree with this. I have the sound on all the time, because my PC doesn't have a dedicated graphics card and I have the graphics on almost minimum settings. So, I rely more on the sound for a little more immersion. 3 things that immediately come to mind are:

• The sound of the ball being kicked sometimes gets stuck in a loop and it sounds like a pinball machine.
• The crowd volume swells at the most bizarre moments, creating a psychedelic Phil Spector wall of sound, particularly during an action replay.
• The referee whistle is also inconsistent. Sometimes he violently blows for half/full-time like he's at sea and trying to get the attention of a lifeguard. Sometimes the match just finishes without so much as a peep.

As the poster quoted above said, it's not so much the sound 'quality', it's the implementation. It just feels very neglected and sloppy. 

I'm happy to post examples as a bug, but there doesn't seem to be a relevant subforum.

Best place for Sound related issues would be here - https://community.sigames.com/forum/740-match-engine-art-animations-benchmarking-performance-facegen-and-manager-man/

Thanks.

[Jimmious7]

1 hour ago, Neil Brock said:

We are working towards an update with the aim of improving the experience of FM, be that through gameplay, performance or match. We hope to do this as soon as we're able to, but given the complexities of certain areas of the game this isn't something we can rush. We don't want to come out and say 'we will release an update on x date' then our Dev or QA team finds an issue which prevents us from meeting that deadline. As always, as soon as we're in a position to update the game we will do so. 

 

Hello Neil,

first of all thank you for your work, you've given us countless hours of gameplay over the years. I would only like to know if these gameplay/ME fixes are prioritized to be delivered before the next DB update or if they will be delivered with it. We have an online game going and we want to plan ahead. 

Thank you

[akinozcan]

1 saat önce, Neil Brock said:

We are working towards an update with the aim of improving the experience of FM, be that through gameplay, performance or match. We hope to do this as soon as we're able to, but given the complexities of certain areas of the game this isn't something we can rush. We don't want to come out and say 'we will release an update on x date' then our Dev or QA team finds an issue which prevents us from meeting that deadline. As always, as soon as we're in a position to update the game we will do so. 

Thanks. 

Dear @Neil Brock

Let's suppose you have completed the ME update at the beginning of February. As a company policy, when update has been completed, do you think "It is better to wait for March to release with database update" or prefer to release it immediately when all the processes of the update are completed?

I ask this because in the recent years the ME update (The only one after new year) has always been released with the database update in March. All of these are coincidence?

[emil_sbn]

@Neil Brock

How come you dont release a ME update in the public beta?

Just to get more people to test the latest version so we can help out as a community I'm sure me and many others to would gladly help. 

 

[battles_atlas]

1 hour ago, pheelf said:

So, in your opinion, they should alienate large swathes of their customers to satisfy those with high end computers? If not that, then they should force people without high end computers to play on a match engine which isn't going to get updated?

No, in my opinion this discussion is irrelevant because it is not what is holding back the ME. *If* it ever becomes an issue, then yes, some balance has to be struck between being playable on a Nokia 3310 so everyone on Earth can join in, and harnessing the technology that has become available in the last ~15 years. It's the same balance that every franchise has to make, because whilst building a Crysis-like game that hardly anyone can run isn't great commercial thinking, neither is allowing your game to become completely obsolete due to self-imposed hardware limitations.

But, again, this is not the reason the ME is as it is, so it doesn't need discussing in this context.

[mp_87]

"Off the pitch" stuff I cant really fault. It's weighty, it's comprehensive, it takes a lot of time, but I like the realism and control you have and proper ability to shape how you want your team to play.

So far, so good....

But that's where the positives for me end I'm afraid, I cant enjoy the game due to what I see "on the pitch".

In terms of the Match Engine, everything in terms of what plays out just feels rushed and forced to me and unrealistic. I don't want to be unkind, but seems like whoever works on it either is/was a fan of 80's style football and just rushing it forward, or has been brought up on arcade-style games, FIFA etc, where every passage of play is trying to do something. The play rarely "calms down", it's too end to end. Some might like that, constant action and it's less of an issue if you only play in brief highlights, but for a game that strives for realism I'd argue it very much isn't.

The bugs and common complaints have been said already, so I'll just pick out small examples of play I don't like.

For a few years now I've bemoaned the utterly one dimensional and arcade-y nature of wide play. Unfortunately this year it's as bad as ever. Get ball, sprint in straight line to corner flag/towards the box, cross/shoot. Every single time.

That feeds into another longstanding gripe of mine - the game far too readily sends the ball out to the flanks. Keeping it central and being patient is difficult because the moment a wide player is noticed in a modicum of space it goes out there, and then its time for run, cross/shoot spam again....

Defenders seem to force the play far too much, no matter what instruction or PPM they have there are hoofs forward or defence splitting passes. Also very easily made to hoof it by the press instead of playing round it. I'm not seeing enough of stepping out of the back with the ball and building up play.

On pressing (it's still overpowered) I see no difference between players, no matter attributes, size, role, style of play etc. If they're instructed to press they all of a sudden tear after the man on the ball at 100mph. Doesn't matter if they're Bobby Firmino or Peter Crouch, there is so little difference.

And even on lower mentalities seeing a lot less of players turning out and being prepared to go back. It will just go cross field to the other flank or a shot or forced ball into the box instead of recycling possession.

Movement also seems a real issue, not quite as bad as last year but the options, particularly centrally in the final third, are still lacking.

And I could pick out 100's more small examples.

 

The versions weren't perfect, but I feel even four or five years ago with less and more limited options you could put together more patient controlling football and recycling of the ball that just looked better, to me at least. If you want to play that style now it's much more of a struggle because the game just doesn't allow for it. My biggest bit of feedback I can make to SI, not particularly a helpful one I admit, is that the football action should slow down a bit and reconsider the direction of travel the football part of the game is going down. It's too rushed in terms of getting the ball forward and trying to force play or score a goal at every opportunity.

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by mp_87

[andu1]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Finally finished my 10 seasons on comprehensive highlights:

Lots I really like about FM20 on and off the pitch, few bits I don't like:

• The transfers negotiation screen, where you click to go into more detail with the arrow is so small compared to the space used, should really be completely clickable. Tiny thing that annoys me irrationally
• The False 9: plays way too high, and is on shoulder too much. Movement should be identical to the Shadow Striker in FM19, living very deep pocket and making surging runs and passes from there
• Final third camped play: Forwards/wide forwards, particularly those on support, need to be dropping deep off the defensive line towards their midfield to receive the ball, too easy to get cut off otherwise, incidentally this would help forward central passes by giving them options here, and create headaches for packed defenses with give and go 1-2 passes, meaning there's more negative trade-off for being static and deep, and you actually have to defend that pocket in front of the defence
• Long balls, less the long balls, and more the lack of defensive reaction. Long balls should be less accurate and a lot more meat and drinking aerial wins for defenders. That would do a real job on that issue, while still having them as a threat and force high line teams to work for that high line
• Finishing - needs to be more varied; shooting earlier, curling round the keeper, rounding the keeper. The more elite the finisher, the more we should see this. Top strikers are that not because they finish clear cut chances, but they also find ways to finish the tough ones and they do that through the above.
• Crosses and long balls in the final are well overhit; crosses usually going back post or beyond, long balls trapping the receiver against the line, which leads to other issues -

1. Attacker overrunning the ball, leaving it behind and defender running off - buggy behaviour that needs squashing.
2. ball being played off for corner, which exacerbates the number of set pieces

• On set pieces, as mentioned too many of them party because of the above, partly because players are too inclined to cross regardless off footedness, crossing instructions or support in the box. Inside forwards in particularly should be holding up to cut inside and drive into the box, or look to curl a shot in, or lay back for any onrushing support. Inverted wingers, should be looking to play in others or by time to curl in a cross off their stronger foot. You've also got too many set pieces because of an inclination for defensive players to clear for a corner, when in fact defensive players should be looking to avoid corners by means.
• Defensive headers need fixing again, wonder if this has re-occured off the back of tweaking headers in general..
• Players running in space with the ball, especially when on the counter or with their weaker foot on the side, should be running a lot more directly at goal rather than down the wing, again this would cut down the number of set pieces occurring
• This one is more of a feature request: highlights should not start with the free kick. You absolutely need to see what leads to the free kick. it makes for much more seamless highlights and it shows the player much more tactical information.
• Offsides - too many of them where players make runs far too early and then don't come back, that needs tweaking. Also take them out of highlights, unless they lead to disallowed goals or great chances, its boring to watch

Spot on review and it also sums all a lot of my concerns about this ME. 

I hope SI doesn't get upset at what I am going to write, but given the magnitude of the issues present in this version of ME, this feels like a beta test and not even close to a finished/polished version. And what is worrying is that the last ME update was at the beginning of December and whilst they aknowledged a lot of the current issues, the speed in which they can fix them is very slow from a customer point of view. To sum it up, it's been a frustrating month and a half as a Football manager fan and SI customer.

 

The only thing that is keeping me from returning to FM 19 is the newgen system which is really a very good addition to the game and also, the newgens seem to be more varied in their stat distribution. This is a good addition and it's so annoying that the core function on this game , the ME , is dragging down the immersion.

 

[ianscousemac]

2 minutes ago, andu1 said:

Spot on review and it also sums all a lot of my concerns about this ME. 

I hope SI doesn't get upset at what I am going to write, but given the magnitude of the issues present in this version of ME, this feels like a beta test and not even close to a finished/polished version. And what is worrying is that the last ME update was at the beginning of December and whilst they aknowledged a lot of the current issues, the speed in which they can fix them is very slow from a customer point of view. To sum it up, it's been a frustrating month and a half as a Football manager fan and SI customer.

 

The only thing that is keeping me from returning to FM 19 is the newgen system which is really a very good addition to the game and also, the newgens seem to be more varied in their stat distribution. This is a good addition and it's so annoying that the core function on this game , the ME , is dragging down the immersion.

 

Agree with the points here except I have had to go back to FM19.  The current ME is just too difficult to watch. 

I do appreciate all the hard work from the SI team, working on patches and constant improvements to the game etc, but it feels like there is so much work to do with the current ME that a fix won’t be along any time soon.

 

[pheelf]

41 minutes ago, battles_atlas said:

No, in my opinion this discussion is irrelevant because it is not what is holding back the ME. *If* it ever becomes an issue, then yes, some balance has to be struck between being playable on a Nokia 3310 so everyone on Earth can join in, and harnessing the technology that has become available in the last ~15 years. It's the same balance that every franchise has to make, because whilst building a Crysis-like game that hardly anyone can run isn't great commercial thinking, neither is allowing your game to become completely obsolete due to self-imposed hardware limitations.

But, again, this is not the reason the ME is as it is, so it doesn't need discussing in this context.

The discussion is not irrelevant because the quality of ME they can produce is inextricably linked to the specification of the computers that are expected to run it. If all the players of the game was lucky enough to have a high end PC like yourself then the quality of the ME would be of a much higher standard but that's not the reality. I also disagree with your statement that these are self-imposed hardware limitations. The limitations are based on the specifications of the computers which the vast majority of the player base use to play the game.

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely improvements that can be made which are not dependent on the hardware available to the users (such as fixing bugs for example) but the product is a niche product already, forcing users to upgrade their hardware to play it is unlikely to have positive effects on SI's bottom line and hence will impact their ability to invest in the game.

They have to move in step with their customers like any business.

Best Regards

[FMLegend1983]

19 hours ago, He can't believe he's missed it said:

You do understand that people being told to try and adapt their approach to mitigate issues in a game that they've paid for while being told to sit and wait for it to be fixed with no obvious timescale is the reason for most of the anger?

Why have I been limited on the amount upvotes I can do when I have done less than 5 upvotes today?

A bit fishy when it came about from me agreeing with the above post, for the record I am so underwhelmed with this years FM and have never complained about any other version and I have owned them all!

I got 3 weeks worth of enjoyment in beta and then the game changed badly for the worse and despite the fact I am over achieving and succesful the football you see from the ME is appalling.

I have tried to be patient but feel incensed that the only game I ever pre-order at full price every year, I have not been able to play for months as each update is a bad let down!

If I ever buy this game again it will be in the steam sale like anything else or when it has dropped to it's lowest price I don't like to vent like this but my patience has worn and by stopping me from voting up the comments I agree with, what type of policy is that?

Plus I agree with the other poster, whilst a majority base probably is laptop users I have a high end gaming PC as many other users probably do. Why can't we have a mode that truly pushes the hardware to it's limitations and a mode as is for basic spec users, it seems to me it's profit over progression, where's the ambition?

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by FMLegend1983

[Tyburn]

3 minutes ago, pheelf said:

The discussion is not irrelevant because the quality of ME they can produce is inextricably linked to the specification of the computers that are expected to run it. If all the players of the game was lucky enough to have a high end PC like yourself then the quality of the ME would be of a much higher standard but that's not the reality. I also disagree with your statement that these are self-imposed hardware limitations. The limitations are based on the specifications of the computers which the vast majority of the player base use to play the game.

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely improvements that can be made which are not dependent on the hardware available to the users (such as fixing bugs for example) but the product is a niche product already, forcing users to upgrade their hardware to play it is unlikely to have positive effects on SI's bottom line and hence will impact their ability to invest in the game.

They have to move in step with their customers like any business.

Best Regards

It’s not necessarily the quality of the ME’s appearance that’s the issue but the way the ME plays. The coding. Hardware is simply not a factor for all of the match engines coding. It’s how the graphics move around. Not the graphics themselves (although, you know ... ideally ...)

[themadsheep2001]

56 minutes ago, andu1 said:

Spot on review and it also sums all a lot of my concerns about this ME. 

I hope SI doesn't get upset at what I am going to write, but given the magnitude of the issues present in this version of ME, this feels like a beta test and not even close to a finished/polished version. And what is worrying is that the last ME update was at the beginning of December and whilst they aknowledged a lot of the current issues, the speed in which they can fix them is very slow from a customer point of view. To sum it up, it's been a frustrating month and a half as a Football manager fan and SI customer.

 

The only thing that is keeping me from returning to FM 19 is the newgen system which is really a very good addition to the game and also, the newgens seem to be more varied in their stat distribution. This is a good addition and it's so annoying that the core function on this game , the ME , is dragging down the immersion.

 

My post isn't a review of SI so people should not be attaching it to their own issues. I hope that doesn't come across as harsh, but just making that clear. Because as I said, there's a lot I'm really enjoying, and its one of my favourites in a long time. Not saying you're doing it, but it's not a post where people use it to pile on SI about things they're frustrated with

[Tyburn]

13 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

My post isn't a review of SI so people should not be attaching it to their own issues. I hope that doesn't come across as harsh, but just making that clear. Because as I said, there's a lot I'm really enjoying, and its one of my favourites in a long time. Not saying you're doing it, but it's not a post where people use it to pile on SI about things they're frustrated with

You’ve just made some good points mate. Points that we all see in the ME. SI would do well to read them.

[Rashidi]

For me the biggest issue with FM20 is the lack of reference for freekicks and sometimes even yellow cards. A player can get a yellow card and I can miss it on extended highlights. Direct freekicks are something that's annoyed me for a long time. We need to see why free kicks in dangerous positions are awarded, these are always a sign of underlying issues with your system. No side likes to give up free kicks in front of goal and will do things to avoid it.  I do enjoy playing the game, but its these two niggling things that affect me the most.

I noticed something in one of my games to day, I was playing against a team that was playing with a CWB on one flank behind two attacking duties in front. We scored in that area and immediately the AI manager changed it to a FB(S). Initially I thought it was a brilliant change, because that flank was so vulnerable and then I looked at the other flank which had 3 attack duties and held my hands up. The AI was just gifting my side chances to bomb down their flanks without pressure. While the AI has certainly shown some improvements, these set ups are just going to make it really easy to exploit them down the flanks. It was still early in the game so I am still wondering if this was ideal. It's good to see it doesn't now always switch to a 424 when it wants to chase a game.

The defensive side of the game is weak, its still too easy to get around  lot of teams and create too many chances on goal. Initially I thought all penalty kicks look the same then i had one where he scored one in the top right corner, so I am chalking lack of variety off.  I think many have pointed out that defensive headers need some work, I find that its too easy now setting traps up to take advantage of how defenders clear headers.

[pheelf]

8 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

It’s not necessarily the quality of the ME’s appearance that’s the issue but the way the ME plays. The coding. Hardware is simply not a factor for all of the match engines coding. It’s how the graphics move around. Not the graphics themselves (although, you know ... ideally ...)

I did give that caveat during my last post where I stated that improvements can be made which aren't hardware dependent.

I would not underestimate the impact of how much the specifications of a computer has on the ME though. The ME is just a visual representation of what is fed into it. If the AI isn't smart enough to consider all it's options then what it will produce is nonsensical and that will be fed into the ME.

The problem lies with the fact that to improve the decision making ability of the AI you need them to systematically review all the different options available to them which takes processing time. That's where the average specifications of the user base comes into play. If the game takes too long to process then people will stop playing it.

The processing capability of a computer feeds directly into every aspect of this game (squad building, man management etc.) which in turn feeds into the ME. It is this fact which is why you end up with the AI fielding poorly rotated squads, buying players which they don't need and discarding ones they do, playing players in the wrong roles, having very prescribed responses to in match events (such as being a goal behind late in the game triggering them to switch to the very attacking mentality and changing to a formation with 3 strikers) and so on.

All the best

[renato.]

Em 10/01/2020 em 11:50, renato. disse:

I'm giving up too. I'm just tired, it's not fun. If you play with a high defensive block, you get balls over the top all over the place. If you play with a low block, you need to pray in every defensive phase to your defender not screw up by giving possession directly into the opposition feet.

An update: This is the only game I play, so I really never stopped playing. Went to the tactical section here, read a little, made a few tweaks and my team plays really nice now, thumbs up to SI for the variety regarding the actions. One example: https://streamable.com/90rxj

Result: Still upset because my striker and my winger keeps missing a lot of one vs one and the quantity of set pieces is overwhelming.