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  1. I tried to do something approaching it on FM 2016 back then. This was really a quick test save, but i personally went with an attacking mentality as it is the attacking mentalities that will make players more prone to look to move it forward. Coupled with an encouragement to drop deeper than the standard allows. For the heck of it, I even added go more direct and pass into space / more risky balls into the mix. This was on FMT and I never micromanaged during the matches, nor watching, having it all on text commentary and max speed, except for subbing players. As such it likely was no coincidence that the actually point drops came against smaller sides who play more defensively, the big dogs in particular when conceding are playing off obscenely high lines as of FM 2016. Which impacts both the space available immediately when you win the ball back as they totally stand their ground at the half way line until the ball carrier comes knocking on the same, as well as the positioning when they retreat, so that even deep into enemy territory there is space that Vardy can cut inside into, or somebody play a through ball in behind (line settings were tweaked that way to be lots more aggressive). Top of the league by the end of December with an average pass completion of below 65%, but an overall total shot conversion of 17% (pretty much every 6th shot attempt a goal, thus, whilst the game average hovers around every 10th), seemed legit. Not sure what things look like exactly on FM 2017, but naturally, that is space "gifted" that eventually may not be available anymore as opponents may approach matches more cautiously and cautiously if success continues.
  2. need more info

    All this different feedback shows first and foremost is that tactics matter -- for both sides going into each match. I could get 8 0-0 draws in a sequence of 10 matches on two years old versions. What this required was: a) several AI teams that played for no more than a draw either way (oft happens when you're a big team). b) Me doing likewise, keeping the ball deep, some players alongside to it, and casually passing it about. :-) Always good if you know how to do it such in the game, naturally, given the options you have. As you barely have that weird dynamics were teams aren't pushing for much in real football, unless, cough cough coughón , it typically doesn't transpire that oftenly. In the game players oft are looking to score yet another one, and AI expectations on a scoreline/result may vary. Speaking of which, what does your tactics look like?
  3. need more info

    Part of the reason players feel they are being "punished for good tactics" here is that the stats in FM don't paint the fully picture. The never will naturally... this one shot could have been the biggest chance in the game after all due to the tactics being really aggressively and "encouraging" high quality shots of the opposition to happen. It might have been that one shot because prior to that the AI just sat back, trying to frustrate and hang on in there (successfully in this case), and only pushed for the equalizer late. All stuff you could do yourself naturally, turning this into a mini-game of who gets the most shots going is a pointless exercise. You will dominate those stats by default if an opponents drops off, it's then about the quality of shots you create and where they are coming from. Unlike most upsets in the game, that's a really high amount of those shots actually being on target. So far you'd been able to pretty much "spam" shots on target all from set pieces, which means you are struggling to break down despite the many amounts of shots on target, and there is no stat/indicator in the game to show that. Usually, you'd expect there to be a goal scored in 1 in 3-5 shots on target. However, if most of them are from set piece play, you can throw that out of the window. Whether it is/was too easy to get shots off set pieces is another thing, there is several tactics combinations that can produce a massive amount of set pieces per match. To be fair, most of them areN't "realistic", such as going very narrow when trying to stretch a packed defense, etc. or in generally having zero width and depth (every player pushed up beyond the ball), which makes the field of play incredibly small and doesn't pull defenders anywhere visibly. Depending on how much AI tactics have been increased, which is needed in my opinion generally, this frustration will increase naturally likewise. You'll have masses of players who will point to this being a bug, scripted or unfair (always will be). But if there was added assistants advice and stats to pick up for his to begin with, maybe this could help some steer into the right direction. You will never convince the player who thinks that dominating possession and shots would result in a win in like every time, or that dominating stats in itself would be a sign of a good tactics. In football as in FM, there is teams that readily let you dominate. You may however make a portion of the user base take notice when and why most of their many attempts aren't even created from open play, and the assistant pointing out that this actually a sign of a team struggling to break an opponent down, rather than them being all over them. Not sure what the above issue in the above match was, it may be nothing but bad luck. Judging from the entire post, it may not be such.
  4. need more info

    The positioning is/used to be affected off the ball by those roles when attacking/in possession. For the defensive shape they didn't matter. Which is a difference. Namely, advanced playmakers were encouraged to play more centrally in parts to make it easier to retain possession, in parts so that they would position more centrally and have options to actually make that play -- wingers were encouraged to stretch the pitch and completely hug the lines. The play wider stuff was hardcoded. So if you wanted to have a winger-like role in that position that didn't play as wide, you could pick the more generic wide midfielder role and tell him to say dribble and cross more, whatever makes your boat afloat. If you then additionally took account of a player's footedness and player prefered moves, you would be more likely to see him following orders, rather than cutting inside with the ball, etc. This is different. After looking around, it's either a fairly wide spread bug, or part of a game solution to the issues previous had with defending wide areas. Wide midfielders at times almost act as if they previously did when they had manually man marking jobs (on the opposing wide players), which can free wide defenders for possibly rampaging wide defenders. From the reaction of mods I'm gauging this is indeed a bug, and a coincidence that this is to be seen in all the first three out of three let's play videos I've watched so far. :-) It's pretty curious either way, and definitely a change. Contrary to what was posted by the OP, this has never been quite like that on previous iterations. Wide players ignore the defensive shape and focus on the man as in man-to-man marking almost, naturally they'd pick up men entering their zone, but this never happened as pronounced before, did it? As this opens hugely channels in centrally positions of the pitch sometimes, several guys might find ways to exploit this. [sorry that I can't provide pkms, not on FM 2017 yet myself).
  5. Bit disheartened this still works to an extent. Apart of the nicely polish going on and the improvements made to decision making, this seems to be a long-term project and not an easy "fix" though. :-) Like the last big restructuring in the form of collision avoidance which made completely static and one dimensional tactics actually toothless, rather than viable. Not arguing this to be an instant loss, but if there isn't a player actually holding the centre of the pitch for the entirety of the 90 minutes against somewhat competitive opposition, and generally acres of space unoccupied going forward quite often, how viable would that be in real football? Support duty midfielders seem to position pretty intelligently during transitioning, pushing up or dropping slightly deeper to offer themselves. All of this naturally influences. But they aren't meant to stay deeper, and eventually they don't hold much. Still not recommended to much play like that for a variety of other reasons, mind. Plus none of the AI managers ever play like that anyway (good for them!)
  6. need more info

    Looks like both of the wide midfielders are manually told to man-mark the opposition wide defenders, tbh. Either that, or there's a weird bug triggering the man marking. They clearly focus on that man, rather than anything.
  7. Managing Arsenal, by any chance? Looking around it seems like the game still hasn't introduced a stats breakdown of which of the 1001 shots are actually from open play (i.e. actually breaking a defense down and stretching the defenders and putting the forwards into a decent position) and which from set pieces (all defenders aboard deck!) then. Seeing that some download/Workshop monstrosities create matches with 25 corners alone and every shot on target off them, and that you don't need to engage quite as absurdly to have the majority of your attempts from set pieces, which inflates numbers in the game hugely, it's puzzling that they don't see this as an issue. Post-match you'd have to click on every shot dot in the match manually to see that you were struggling to break down, and that those 15 shots on target in the statistics and a few actually quality attempts popping up as a highlight barely tell half the story. In particular considering that players on FM can grow frustrated if that's what their average shot looks like during a match, which they are less likely to convert, which lessens the chance slightly that those decent attempts are put away. You could think of it as the game's attempt of simulating the Ronaldo effect. A statistics and fully page that manually calculates the shots and SOT conversion for players would also be nice. It could gloss over the actually buggy finishes (forward regularly takes wrong foot to finish, some bad decisions from close range, etc), but it would mostly show if the overall conversion really is that bad or not. So far there's but the team reports and overall team stats, and lots has to be calculated manually. Overall conversion from my perspective at least so far has never been a major issue. Which is not to argue it's just completely like football, but I've always manually calculated SOT conversions etc. for every major forward in the leagues to compare it to real life numbers. It's pretty accurate on that front. FM 2017 would be a first in many years. More importantly, the game has never made the game artificially more difficult for the human player like that. Punishing you because you are too good. It's been disproven every single version (and officially, completely opposes the design ethos in behind the series). One may feel like it. Few are actually looking for possibly solutions. If there's buggy finishing, it will affect every team in the save. If you are one of the big boys always "dominating" stats by default as teams drop off, watch out what the other big boy teams perform like (on FM 2016, they occasionally performed like poo-poo compared to a human player or their real-life counterparts). Hopefully the AI tactical overhauls have improved this some (and made them more competitive).
  8. From the video this looks as if Rangers are completely overrun too in parts, like hit on a break. There's like two players behind the ball when the clip starts and nobody at all responsible anymore for the wide guys which eventually sneak into the box... agree with that run the player makes even though it's hard to guess the context of the situation and formation applied however some kind of error and unmarked player was always likely to be in there. I know there's a lot of detailed and fantastic player reports, but this second to second match engine stuff -- this is so much of an area where SI should much more involve all their pro football contacts to check it out, preferably some that actually play and inhibit the positions. Unlike Fifa where errors don't come off as pronounced anyways due to matches lasting like two times a commercial break on TV in between halves, they are meant to be in here too and look somewhat "believable". Would be interesting to know how much if it's being utilized. By the way, any referees in the game that average barely a booking or two a game, long-term (prevsiously connected to that there's a very small range of discipline rating given to refs that produce "realistic" performances/stats). As a comparison for those playing in the Premier League for instance:
  9. FM has a couple problems (overall shot accuracy overall is not one of them): - the CCC stat picks up on all kinds of stuff (even if it wouldn't, there's huge misconceptions about at which rates one on ones, cccs are actually converted -- Arsenal at some point during last season had missed like 70% of their CCCs and there's forwards who failed to put them away at rates of pretty much 7-8 out of 10) - outside of manually watching, picking up pen and paper and doing a chart, there is absolutely no statistics or indicator showing where shots are coming from. This was from an older release, matches uploaded by a guy who spread everywhere he went he'd be rigged by the game. Must have been pretty much blind, because in every single match uploaded, all of his supposedly "battering" shots came off set pieces, which is in packed boxes, which means forwards are in zero space, and defenses never any stretched from open play an inch! This isn't made up, all the shots marked green came immediately off either an attacking throw-in, a free kick or a corner. It was the same in every match. In some goals were still actually scored (off set pieces, mostly), in most they were simply easily defended. With most of the bugs ironed out, i.e. LOL my centre back has scored 20 goals this season after corner routines, that's increasingly becoming an issue - players overly focus on useless possession and shot counts. This player was the poster child of this, he was convinced that always having huge possession and shot counts was somehow turning superior, in fact, beating the match engine itself, whilst you can win back to back promotions with some of the worst possession in the league and never "winning" the shot battle of rates of 2 or 3:1 (Ranieri would approve of that). What you won't do is doing the same with every single shot coming off set pieces every single match, whilst your opponent hits you hard on the break as any of such shots is immediately of higher quality as contrary to any set piece, defenders are actually in headless chicken mode then, and the box as open as the floodgates. At the very least, it will be massively harder to do then. Which both is tactical, always. Going straight with the assistant and letting him do everything, he'd never engaged in any that lead to this, by the way. As long as SI don't make this blatantly obvious, and introduce further stats and explaining those that are in there, the issue will persist. Well, it always will to degrees, as there are huge misconceptions about football in general and about how it is modelled into the game, to be fair. With the news about improved AI tactical decision making, which is much needed, here's looking forward for more of all right when FM 2017 hits. Might even be a bad sign if there wouldn't be some more of it, actually.
  10. Why doesn't that show on the screenshots you posted? Those look like close results against competitive teams. In fact it doesn't even show conceding like crazy one bit, safe for one or two individually matches. Overall you seem to concede about 1 goal per game, whilst that it isn't at the standard that Atletico tend to have in La Liga, it isn't that hugely far off of the other top teams either. You should either upload the save or matches or anything because nobody is going to guess what's going on. You have a pretty warped perception judging by what you've uploaded so far either way. Don't delete the saves, upload those crazy 2-5 results as pkms against weaker teams. Maybe somebody could have a look then, rather than wondering. It doesn't all need to be tactical, who knows what you're doing when you start to lose some matches (randomly chopping things around), going by what you've posted it could be anything as the shots you provide so far don't match much you describe. A further hint for that is the totally frustration, the double posts, the tilting and the deleting of the saves. That doesn't make things sound very reliable. Still remember a big thread from the Summer, maybe the reason that nobody does provide any help anymore is because you flat out denied it -- such as stopping the constant reloading against a rather "specialty" AI formation where you were clearly getting overloaded in key areas. You seem to massively overcomplicate and tilt all over the shop. I honestly know a lot of totally newbies who don't have any such frustrations, maybe because they keep it clean and simple (and take the occasional loss on the chin and carry on). That way the focus on their squads, and with better players come more consistently results either way. About older versions... I could turn both of my centre backs into goal scoring machines on FM 2011. It's fun if you don't care about realism (or buggy set pieces). But things have moved on either way. At the core it's still as simple a game for the most part as you let it be, in fact the AI tactical decision making for instance is in need of plenty upgrades. If you're still playing or switching to that 4-4-1-1 with both WMs on A and one of the centre mids on support.. it's not some kind of horrid thing but when in possession it's pretty much the same as going 4-2-3-1 outright which is like one of the most aggressive formations in the game bar none, for a start because it is 4 players by default pushing up deep into the final third. Same as your 4-4-2 would immediately turn into a 4-2-4. The attacking wide guys are going to push up from their position immediately, you'd have the attacking centre mid plus the forward plus one of the centre mids pushing along too. So if your main concern is conceding, putting both of the centre mids in that 4-4-1-1 on a defend duty can do wonders. That's two guys who will intercept balls and are deeper outlets for retention, typically unchecked by opposition players as they're a bit deeper, visibly. It will also make it tons easier to keep the ball for your side, which further influences naturally your defense, as the longer your side has the ball in the ops half, that's time they basically can't attack. Neither of anything tactical you posted is meant to prioritize clean sheets either way.
  11. Philosophy, er fluidity, er shape seems to be reworked slightly for FM 2016, but I honestly think it's the most overcomplicating/bloated thing there is in the game. The last couple of posts, the back and forth, the anecdotes and back and forth of how it might be of use have just reminded of that. If you would focus on the basic formation, the roles, the mentalities, some possibly style tweaks via the TIs, and player instructions, that should do the job just fine. A deep lying forward, a CM/a, maybe a ppm, should do the trick. At the core this gig dates all the way back to Mentality Theorems of old, some good guys interested in tactical theory (awkwardly) trying to shoehorn real world tactical concepts into game mechanics of that time. It still shows in my opinion, worst thing for newcomers in particular or somebody not at all taking a look at forums is that it still does naught to little what it says on the description in large parts, and the effects in particular prior to FM2016 were neglibly to the extreme, despite all the talking about how players would space out so differently during transitioning depending on what shape you'd pick, that is mayhaps outside the rising freedom of expression given to players the more fluid you went. Which, for me, still remains my decision base on what to pick. And if research guidelines leaked are anything to go by, AI managers pick it solely based on an attribute they are given -- no tactical 'nous 'bout it whatsoever. I wouldn't be surprised if it's taken out or remodeled into something else entirely by about FM 2022. Or made much more intuitive and arguably pronounced too either way. It's probably no coincidence that it's seen a slightly re, er, shaping and several name changes already.
  12. This. You won't get any more defensively solid than with either two DMs or two CMs on a defend duty, players that make that central of the pitch completely their own in the match play, preferably with really great defensive stats so that they don't miss additionally key tackles etc. and naturally you can also play matches dynamically after going 1-0 up. Having deep players also allows you to easier recycle the ball, and if they don't have it, they can't attack. If they can't attack, they can't take a shot. That's true in football and it's the same in the game. Sadly FM doesn't sport such average stats which means you have to do stuff manually, but with a good side in a league you can bring the shots you concede, overall shots mind, down to something like 4, 5, 6 on average... and having win records of 80% with 12 own shots taken average. And naturally the better the players, the easier it is to keep those clean sheets. Your fans might complain about the boring football on display via the confidence tabs, but it's possible. A 4-4-2 is always prone to be vulnerable, in particular on FM where the forwards just don't engage much in defending and help out centrally until you engage them to (I often have the deeper one of them man marking the deepest opposition midfielder). Compare that to how Atletico played against Bayern, both forwards tracking back deep into their halves -- not happening on FM unless you manually make them engage in such (no AI does this ever). None of the setups posted are that cautious to begin with, the 4-4-1-1 posted with both WMs in possession that's basically the same as going with 4-2-3-1 top heavy Denmark, four players completely pushing ahead of things and flooding the final third, plus one of the cms on support pushing alongside to it too. Best visible from elevated cams. On previous iterations I ran fun saves where I tried to go without conceding a goal with say Bayern, but somewhere around the 10th game of the season or if you're unlucky right in the first right after kick-off there's always a goal in there, and be it off a set piece (attacking throw, free kicks, corners) or error, heck even a bug. It's not scripted, it's just that the second to second match play, you can't get it to something where you have 100% possession or zero shots conceded or anything, and even the long shot conversion seems to be something approaching football numbers (ca. 1 in 20-30 attempts purely average = goal). You just can't keep everything away from goal (no team in football can), unless you would sport a massively superior team, which you can replicate also and is oft seen in wildly unbalanced Cup ties where opponents don't get a damn going -- in league matches, not so much. Just saw this tonight too, so it's possible in FM 2016 all the same. No surprises the DM strata is packed, if he switched it to something more conservative with less attack duty guys upon taking leads, he'd up his 1-0 tallys or spam 0-0s (which isn't the goal, just to keep clean sheets).,22917.msg835671.html#new If there ever was AI managers brought to such levels, and this is hardly rocket science, the game will be really fun. As anyone can witness by comparing, it plain isn't. To add another 2c you are unlikely to ever fully contain the attacking talent teams such as Barca and Real tend to sport, you've got to upgrade your own defense a tad too... which isn't that unrealistic. You'd be much better off with Atletico probably if you want to grind out nice and dirty 1-0s from the go as they are packed with some quality defenders right there. Playing with top teams, often AI opponents simply try to avoid heavy beatings, so tend to not at all play that aggressively, which makes it massively easier to keep clean sheets right there and to an extent is true for them in football just as well. Speaking of which, AI does win the league on occasion scoring little more than 50 goals.... all the while being much less solid still at the back (see above, sigh).;topic=21468.0;attach=6564;image
  13. To be fair, it's 2016 --- and it's been a fraud all along.
  14. I'm surprised you didn't spot it, being that invested in the tactical aspects of the game. But in parts the random performance of said teams is precisely because of some role/duty picks of some managers in parts. Take the frequent isolating of attacking players making them easy to crowd out/dispossess or force to take pot shots, which has been in there for years and makes teams right at the top easier to defend and worsen their conversion rates, which would affect certain managers moreso than others, as certain possible AI formations are more affected, others not at all (pretty much impossible to isolate attacking players in a top heavy 4-2-3-1 Denmark as per FM that's 4 players pushing up by default, a 4-1-4-1 is another story completely). The unrealistically prolonged periods of time, oft entire matches, AI managers on their most defensive had tons of defend duty guys in there, which might make them some solid at the back and frustrating to break down as as 8 players just always sitting behind the ball is 8 players sitting behind the ball, but making them toothless also and incapable of ever much keeping the ball in the opposition's half lending itself to completely one-sided matches (seemed to be tweaked for 2016 already). How about the inability of an AI manager to at all spot to where he's getting thouroughly exploited, for instance Guardiola punished for his very aggressive lines by attackers of calibre and pace in particular. The occasionally gibberish outright formational changes at HT leading to end to end stuff when an AI had pretty much already "bagged" the game which might be connected to research too as they set up favorite attacking and defending formations. Or the still occasionally weird picks out in Europe or two legged Cup ties, where after big wins an AI manager suddenly lets itself get steamrolled in the return and just drops back, so that you can be "all over" Barcelona's starting eleven with weaker sides, and some more. Whether those overhauls are successful I'm going to directly gauge from the Beta feedback threads, because some added user frustration might actually be a good sign. :-) Overall, looking pretty promising, very very decent presentation overall as well. Naturally, the added info/analysis on team strength and weaknesses is only half the deal if AI managers won't be able to put it to use it some proper as well. :-)
  15. Alongside to that, which likely won't be revealed much in the videos, further refinement to AI picks and decision making. My benchmark for that is how well does that supposedly premium AI manager do with a team, and how well does a human player do with the same team, and how much has that player really stretch to outperform it long- and shortterm, provided he doesn't make any bad decisions along the way, bad management in the form of chopping stuff randomly around whenever he hits onto a run of no results, etc. (as so frequently the case due to bad myth going places everywhere -- i.e. tactics get "cracked" or need to be changed wholesale at every turn to keep AI "guessing", when realistically any run can be influenced by the fixture list already and rotten luck, or indeed, good fortunes). There's still stuff there that might not hugely affect every game, but it costs points and impacts conversion stats long-term. Like, it's no fun watching the "elite" say fielding CRonaldo as a lone forward off a flat midfield formation and making him run far ahead of everyone else via the job assigned to his, which naturally is more pronounced when the opposition's defense drops deep immediately also killing any possible through ball alongside to it, so when he gets the ball he tends to be CRonaldo and blast it -- he would be slightly more inclined to even if he actually HAD options around his. Makes him easier to 'fend off too. There's stuff in there that lacks behind totally Beginner's Guides from like five years ago. It's very much understood that FM ain't a hardcore tactics sim first and foremost, but that's a bit extreme as it is nothing you see much of when watching top level football... There might be gaps, and players occasionally isolated, but it might be due to lack of gelling and communication and fluidity, not repeating on each spell of possession due to some deliberately tactical choice. I totally would not mind if the assistants were upgraded to the level where should the human manager insist on doing it all himself, they'd optionally flat out tell him what effect some of this can have, like phoning in of everything, perhaps even better yet as you suggested introducing visual cues on the tactics screen what things look like when transitioning from defense to attack. Alongside improvements to AI picks naturally comes improvements to assistant manager picks themselves too, should he go with the assistant either way. Speaking of which, possibly and arguably much needed improvements to assistants could very well feature in there -- whilst it was introduced with the best of intents, I shudder to think of anyone taking most of his advice at "face value", in particular during a match. :-)