Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

[bitzu_rock]

This is the result of everything wrong with wingers shooting from closed angles...1vs1 attacking misses in FM20..    (i am playing with York)

[davehanson]

2 hours ago, anagain said:

Well SI will work with the publisher to agree somewhat on a release date, and there will be some understanding of whether the game will be ready. Saying that, publishers will want a specific release date in advance. It's a much discussed area within gaming, with some publishers being judged harsher than others. I'm sure there is a good working relationship between Sega and SI, but as the game has released early November for many years then there will likely be an ssumption and agreement with Sega that that date will be targeted.

I believe you are trying to make it look like SI are intentionally releasing a defective product on to the market, but I believe that couldn't be further from the truth. As I said games development will never be perfect, and bugs will appear in a release version that have been hard to spot in development or even beta. This particular issue seemed to pop up after the start of beta. SI will have the exact timeline, but all this pallaver on the forums was not around at the start of beta.

You have to understand how coding of the match engine in this game works. Announcing a date for a patch and annoucing the release date of a game are two very different prospects. Fixing the match engine is not just a case of pushing a few buttons or tweaking a slider. The fact that this issue has even popped up after the start of beta is testament to that. 

Stop trying to be a wise guy and understand how the development process and the fixing of bugs actually works before you dig for reasons to implicate SI in some sort of treasonous release of the game.

Wise guy? Perhaps you want to watch how you respond to people. I have not insulted you in any way so please don't do it to me. There is no reason to resort to personal insults.

I asked an SI employee what the difference was between releasing a date one month in advance of the game releasing and how that differed from telling people, or at least giving some indication, when they anticipated the patch would be available. You decided to reply, so I am I to assume you have an inner knowledge? I didn't imply anything until you made a sarcastic reply about you following the game for a long time. 

Perhaps wind your neck in and let people ask the questions they want before jumping down their throat. 

[KUBI]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb Jesper9000:

You can find it here: 

 

There is no news about a date for an update in that thread. Please do not spread misleading information. 

[roykela]

19 minutes ago, akkm said:

your initial post said when facing a superior system so that read like the system will beat superior players which of course it can occasionally but ultimately and consistently it's players quality which prevails...a klopp mourinho or guardiola system using non league players will get relegated from the premiership likely every single season.

on ozil...he has been given more licence to operate more centrally under arteta which suits his skillset and effort rates better. emery didn't like his application off the ball not in kms covered but pressure put on opposition and thus as a team unit ozil meant their shape was disjointed and pressing as a unit was the same. wenger it transpired never made that transition to emulate the barca method as he didn't understand how it really works but ozil was effective at times under wenger but ultimately under him arsenal lacked purpose, shape and organisation which was his downfall...well plus lack in instilling discipline on and off the pitch lol. so it wasn't ozils fault arsenal failed then but he was a symbol of it given his languid style even though as you say he is an incredibly gifted footballer and given the proper launchpad can be brilliantly effective with a system which uses him well. 

on your personal coaching I'm sure you had some good and very useful input but the players were obviously better than were thought by everyone. It's like saying the bottom team of the premiership who kept getting whacked changed their system and then started whacking teams then. That's not how it works. Yeah if system used was terrible and underutilising players to the detriment of their talents and making them play badly...that's plausible but it would be indicative of them being better players than perceived. Even then being better players but being used in a better system the only way they start to whack teams of consistently better players is if the other teams tactics severely hamper those teams with better players.

Essentially systems and tactics help out of course especially with head to head matches but unless its woeful tactics being used then it's quality of players which will dictate medium and long term success and certainly consistently that's the case

if players quality prevails Leicester would never have won the Premier League.
Calais would never reach the French Cup final.
Sweden wouldn't acheive 3rd in the World Cup.
Norway would never beat Brazil (they have never lost to Brazil, nor Argentina) etc.

I thought that my initial post was obviously simplified. If i would talk about all ifs, buts, unless' etc. i would have to create my own forum
Your second and third paragraph is exactly what i was talking about.
It's not "this is how we play because it suits us better" - WHAM! Winning everything. That is quite obvious.

Regarding my personal coaching. When i left the team started losing again. Same players but different system.
I took over another team, a year or two later.
They were better than my first team but quite mediocre.
Ended up 2nd in the league and won a cup (same one) again.
The previous year's top scorer for the club ended up being a solid central defender for me. That was almost the first thing i did already after the first training session. Telling him he would be my no. 1 central defender
Players were utilized horribly wrong in the past.
I fit the players to my system and they played much, much better. Individually the players, apart from that central defender, were quite meh. But put in the right system they were great as a team.

[davehanson]

2 minutes ago, KUBI said:

There is no news about a date for an update in that thread. Please do not spread misleading information. 

What he is trying to highlight is he specifically asked if a patch would be released before March and SI said they were unsure.

[Jesper9000]

2 minutes ago, KUBI said:

There is no news about a date for an update in that thread. Please do not spread misleading information. 

@KUBI I have not mentioned any date, but have you seen the thread? A user is asking if it will be before the March update, and @Jemal Wiseman from SI Testing Team reply "We are unsure at the moment but we will announce it when we know". 

[KUBI]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Jesper9000:

@KUBI I have not mentioned any date, but have you seen the thread? A user is asking if it will be before the March update, and @Jemal Wiseman from SI Testing Team reply "We are unsure at the moment but we will announce it when we know". 

And that means there is no news on it. So please just wait until an official announcement. 

[akkm]

Just now, roykela said:

if players quality prevails Leicester would never have won the Premier League.
Calais would never reach the French Cup final.
Sweden wouldn't acheive 3rd in the World Cup.
Norway would never beat Brazil (they have never lost to Brazil, nor Argentina) etc.

I thought that my initial post was obviously simplified. If i would talk about all ifs, buts, unless' etc. i would have to create my own forum
Your second and third paragraph is exactly what i was talking about.
It's not "this is how we play because it suits us better" - WHAM! Winning everything. That is quite obvious.

Regarding my personal coaching. When i left the team started losing again. Same players but different system.
I took over another team, a year or two later.
They were better than my first team but quite mediocre.
Ended up 2nd in the league and won a cup (same one) again.
The previous year's top scorer for the club ended up being a solid central defender for me. That was almost the first thing i did already after the first training session. Telling him he would be my no. 1 central defender
Players were utilized horribly wrong in the past.
I fit the players to my system and they played much, much better. Individually the players, apart from that central defender, were quite meh. But put in the right system they were great as a team.

pointing out exceptions to try and support any argument is essentially an exercise in confirmation bias. the year leicester won most other teams level dropped a lot. there's plenty of examples where lesser players can succeed...can they sustain that success is where conclusions can be properly drawn. You're example of leicester players...how many more leagues/cups did they win...calais how did they fare consistently....similarly sweden and norway. You've basically made my point...quality players is what determine consistent success certainly medium and long term which is what i said. Any other conclusion is simply incorrect and subjective interpretation of what happens in real world football

on your personal coaching...yeah i said you likely added something to them and as you say likely were being used terribly prior but heres the kicker if you played with that team and played against a consistently better team using a system which fits the better teams players which gets the best out of the other teams better players then they'd consistently be better despite your system...you'd have occasional good results and performances but the consistent medium long term outcome would be they'd achieve better results and performances than your team. thats not to undermine your efforts...you've clearly done well...but the better team utilising a solid suited system would be better in general

[Bakiano]

Is this a new thing on FM20 or?

[signup]

Hello, my two cents here, as I get triggered every time I visit this thread and can't hold it anymore.

Playing (and buying game) every year since FM14. I used to blind-buy this game no matter what as I enjoy FM and want to show my support for SI releasing it every year and doing the scouting stuff etc, however it's completely over my head what happened this year and how it's handled on this board.

Let's face the fact, that FM20 has no new spectacular features added since 19 – additions are nice, but most of the stuff was in the game already and all is changed is a way it's presented, so the argument that developer was busy with some super-complicated addition for the whole year cannot be raised.

I'm generally worried about the way FM is evolving, because as someone suggested few posts before, it's great in terms of football management game, but it's quite far from simulating actual football; For me, tactics stuff is oversimplified compared to actual footy and for some reason main weight of development lies somewhere else; ok, I understand, it's a game, most of buyers are casuals, it's a matter of balance between fun and sim, okay. That's a sidenote.

However

ME this year is clearly, if not broken, ridiculed with serious issues (unplayable, hard to enjoy, it's all matter of wording). New ones and one's lasting since few iterations (as it's not my first meeting with zombie, brainless broccoli defence for example).

Yes, f-ups happen, it happened here, we are all human, but it's matter of how it's handled.

I cannot understand staff being somewhat hostile towards people criticizing testers and suggesting they should be replaced. How it's possible the game was in hands of beta-testers for x months and was released in current state, when it's clear to see after playing for one hour, that main part of it, which is ME, has serious issues. Were the tests some hardcore A-B testing? Did testers submitted issues, but SI ignored them? What happened? Some transparency would be welcome.
I can understand pointing foul-language or clear personal attacks, but otherwise SI seems straight arrogant about it.

I cannot understand zero communication from Developer as for fixing the issues. I'm not taking the „100 k people are enjoying the game” argument, as those are the same people, that would enjoy it if CCC would be 100% or 0% and would just consider it part of the game as it is. But I guess opinion of hardcore and hard-paying consumers should be taken more seriously, even if they are not main stream of revenue. Clearly mistakes were made and it's fine, but admitting-not-admitting it and absolute no time-horizon for fixing this is beyond understanding for me. I'm not taking the complexity, software, blah blah argument. Let's be serious – SI is not a one guy in the shed kind of gig. No one knows the code better than You, no one knows how to fix it. This situation should be considered dumpster fire and even allowing customers to think it will be fixed as late as march is just disgrace. Communication with enraged part of Your most loyal userbase should be a priority here.
EDIT: We should note that tweaking the ME was happening in beta period. How long it took then? A week between releases? How come it's suddenly a complex task that can take 2+ months? A workday is a lot of time and in my imagination we are talking fine-tuning some values and testing it, not overhauling the applications from ground-up.

Another side-note, judging by complexity comments, optimization and how ghetto and lacking kind of operation using ingame editor is, I can understand FM is serious spaghetti code situation, but again, there is no one to blame for it other than the Studio.

3 hours ago, KUBI said:

Condition attribute of twenty for six users, who posted together more than 1000 time in this thread. 

Please leave some space for other users. 

Please don't take it personally as this particular comment I cannot fully understand as English is not my native language, but if it's some kind of laughing out the rightfully dissatisfied consumers than I'm just straight over it as it's perfect example how not to do business. And still jokes or irony are highly uncalled for given current situation of, perhaps, bit more than 26 users.  EDIT: This was clarified to me in PM and seems not on point, yet still I'm not in laughing mood.

Personally, at the moment, for the first time I feel I put 50$ (wich is not a small sum) in toilet instead towards supporting some nice job done by SI and it's more a matter of handling it than it is of the game itself. As I said, problems happen and are understandable for most users, especially if they buy the game year after year no matter what, but there is a serious difference between being transparent and declaring consumer's feedback will be considered serious and fixed asap and leaving the consumer with empty arguments, lack of communication or being straight up insulting towards them.

Anyway, good luck everyone, enjoy the game, real and virtual.

Edited January 11, 2020 by signup

[roykela]

10 minutes ago, akkm said:

pointing out exceptions to try and support any argument is essentially an exercise in confirmation bias. the year leicester won most other teams level dropped a lot. there's plenty of examples where lesser players can succeed...can they sustain that success is where conclusions can be properly drawn. You're example of leicester players...how many more leagues/cups did they win...calais how did they fare consistently....similarly sweden and norway. You've basically made my point...quality players is what determine consistent success certainly medium and long term which is what i said. Any other conclusion is simply incorrect and subjective interpretation of what happens in real world football

on your personal coaching...yeah i said you likely added something to them and as you say likely were being used terribly prior but heres the kicker if you played with that team and played against a consistently better team using a system which fits the better teams players which gets the best out of the other teams better players then they'd consistently be better despite your system...you'd have occasional good results and performances but the consistent medium long term outcome would be they'd achieve better results and performances than your team. thats not to undermine your efforts...you've clearly done well...but the better team utilising a solid suited system would be better in general

What i originally posted was in regard to a player's success in one season. The exception. That it is possible with a balanced and logical system with the right players.
"...but the better team utilising a solid suited system would be better in general". Yeah. The highlighted is the key point i was making.
If the better team isn't utilising a solid suited system but the on-paper inferior team is, the chances that the inferior team will win are big.

Another real life example; from when i was a goalie. Now, this was an indoor cup so it's not comparable to "real footie" but the underlying point is.

We were a 6th division team. The other teams were 2nd-4th division teams. We trained 2 times a week.
Favourites had ambitions of getting promoted to 1st division (2nd tier). That team also had players that played for the U21 National Team.
We had one system. Which was a bare-boned system. You play there, you play there....this is how we're going to score goals and this is how we'll defend.
We got to the semis. Wiping the floor with the opposition every game. The quality of our players should have done the opposite. We should've been the rags. But we played well together in our simple system.
In the semis we met said favourites. We were looking at a slaughter so bad it should be illegal.
Didn't happen. They changed their system. Changed their tactics and approach, and put players in different positions. They were taking the win for granted.
We scored an early goal and decided to defend the lead.
The other team only realised the danger of getting knocked out when we weren't awarded a clear penalty in the last 5 minutes of the match. The realisation of possibly being 2-0 down at the end of the match changed things.
They switched back to their usual system. Boom-boom. 2 goals against us in the dying minutes and we were knocked out.

[anagain]

1 hour ago, davehanson said:

Wise guy? Perhaps you want to watch how you respond to people. I have not insulted you in any way so please don't do it to me. There is no reason to resort to personal insults.

I asked an SI employee what the difference was between releasing a date one month in advance of the game releasing and how that differed from telling people, or at least giving some indication, when they anticipated the patch would be available. You decided to reply, so I am I to assume you have an inner knowledge? I didn't imply anything until you made a sarcastic reply about you following the game for a long time. 

Perhaps wind your neck in and let people ask the questions they want before jumping down their throat. 

Why assume I have inner knowledge? You don't need inner knowledge to understand the difference between a release date notification and the lack of notification of a patch being available. Anyone who follows gaming should know how things work. You didn't ask SI, you asked the forum.

I gave you an answer to your question that I believe SI would be likely to give, in my experience of following a lot of games for a lot of years. Your reply was that you wanted SI to answer it. I wasn't sarcastic, but I told you again that you should believe what I said. You then implied that SI were happy to release an inferior product. No developer does that, or at least no reputable developer. If anyone's words were sarcastic they were yours when you told me my words to you had clarified your view that they happily released a broken product. You are trying to be a wise guy in turning my explanation around. I never clarified anything.

Quote

 

As long as it actually loads up then it is going to get released. 

And that is exactly what seems has happened this year, but thanks for clarifying it...........

 

Wind my neck in? You just need to realise how game development works.

Bugs happen. No developer wants it, but they happen. Fixing them is not always a straightforward process. I am sure that SI are as disappointed with things as the players of this fine game are. People just need to have some patience and let them do their job of making things better. SI are not delivering a flawed product in any way on purpose, and they won't be happy with it.

Edited January 11, 2020 by anagain

[vence]

This is the holiest crap I have ever seen in my entire life and it's holiness comes from it's magnificent history which leaves only crap for this version of the game. 

I am sorry to repeat the obvious issues but can't help the feeling of frustration and disappointment. I am addicted to this game since 2000. God bless Maxim Tsigalko and may Assane N'Diaye's soul rest in peace.

This game is not playable. It's not about winning or losing. In fact, the broken ME helped me a lot in defeating European giants with my moderate Beşiktaş, using easy long balls from midfielders that most of the time creates one on ones. On Champions League, I play with ME exploiting tactic 4-4-2 with a balanced mentality and more direct passing because all other options besides a couple of one and ones fail frequently on scoring. My main tactic on domestic competitions is a 4(WB-BPD-BPD-WB)-1(DLP)-2(B2B, CM)-2(IW, IW)-1(AF) with an attacking mentality. If I use Sergio Gomez, I play him as an Advanced Playmaker on MC and switch my DM to an Anchor Man or a Defensive Midfielder.

Here is an example of my performance;

I have never played this game just for winning. I want my team to play a certain style of football. But no matter what I do, the defensive line is always high, letting long balls that end in one and ones. My keeper Livakovic(One on ones:18) is a spider who plays with 7.31 rating on continental competitions, nearly saving every penalty and one on one. He is so good that I can't sell him no matter what other team offers me. My team do also often pass long balls, although I want them to play narrow with shorter passing with each and every one having shorter passing instructions. I want my wingers to shoot less often and cross more often but they do shoot from every absurd angle and never pass. I am craving for an easy tap in after a low cross from the winger to the running striker. All I watch time and time again is a side netting shooting from that kind of highlight;

I have tried to find quickest defenders to cover long balls but they end up chasing running strikers and falling behind nearly all the time no matter what the striker's acceleration, dribbling or pace ratings are. If the opponent player is taking a free kick from the right or left side of the field, if it is not close to my 18 yard box, I know that the highlight will end with a one on one situation. Moreover I am having heart attacks every time my defender runs for a ball going towards the touchline for him to stop the ball and wait for the pressing opponent to prepare him a one on one chance.

And what the hell is wrong with the headers? Players never hit the target on their headers and if they somehow find the target, ball goes directly to the arms of the keeper or he makes an impossible reflex save. With all the corners, free kicks, crosses etc. look at my goal stats. 68 goals, just 3 headers. By the way, my main defenders are having jumping reach/heading attributes as; 17/12 and 14/12 and my teams average height is 182cm so I am not playing with headless midgets. Sergio Gomez and Batista Meier are my corner/free kick takers with 15 each corner/free kick attributes.

Again, how can a scoring from a direct free kick be easier than a penalty? I am more hopeful when my players are shooting free kicks around the box than a penalty. You can find goal stats above.

I may be wrong on this one as I haven't seen anyone complain about it but another thing that bothers me about player performance is consistency. For example one match, a player scores a hat trick and then go scoreless for 5 matches in a row. If it was just one or two players, I would say that their hidden consistency ratings may be low but this is for nearly every attacking player for me. I am on my 4th year so I can say that I have used a bunch of players. The point is if players are on their form, they are nearly unstoppable. They score one on ones, though angle shots etc. But lots of matches same players squander easy chances which make me think that there is a problem with the effects of consistency rating. What I wait from the game is, if a player has great scoring attributes(finishing, composure etc.), and couple of ccc every match; he will score constantly. He may have bad days that he can't score and better days he can score a bunch. But with the relatively same amount of chances, what I get is a monster for a match and an inept for a couple of matches that can't even score an empty net goal. There is no balance. As I said, I might be wrong on this one but this is my experience.

I may be biased on this one but I also find out that scoring CCC are easier against better(attacking) opponents. This may be the reason behind overachieving as I have seen some overachieving users are finding ccc converted with high frequency. What I can say from my experience is, my team is converting CCC against tougher (Champions League) teams frequently than easier (domestic relegation candidates) opponents.

As I said, I am playing this game for years, thousands of hours each. This is my first post on this forum as this time, the problems are incredibly annoying. Although it is great in lots of aspects, this ME is the worst version I have ever used because of certain patterns ruining the experience. After 280 hours of playing, 4 seasons, hours of searching and scouting, trying to find and develop young players, investing on club facilities etc. I have ended up with the same and boring kind of matches. Independent from the tactic or style I use; If my winger cuts inside with the ball I know that he is shooting into the side netting. If there is a corner or a cross, I wait for it to go over the bar. Penalty will be missed, a side free kick will end up with a one on one etc. 

Damned Football Manager, the destroyer of relationships and the killer of productivity. I can't help it, I am addicted.

Sorry for my bad English.

Hope for a quick fix and great experience for all the doomed addicts, brothers, friends, romans, countrymen..

[rp1966]

1 hour ago, signup said:

 

Yes, f-ups happen, it happened here, we are all human, but it's matter of how it's handled.

 

Oh yes indeed. 

 

Five words:  Hello Games No Man's Sky

 

[Sisamom]

vor einer Stunde schrieb KUBI:

And that means there is no news on it. So please just wait until an official announcement. 

Where's the Problem with jespers comment? He just repeated a comment made by an SI employee.

[KUBI]

Gerade eben schrieb Sisamom:

Where's the Problem with jespers comment? He just repeated a comment made by an SI employee.

Just to make it clear, it was not an official announcement from the developers.

[Sisamom]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb KUBI:

Just to make it clear, it was not an official announcement from the developers.

And how should anyone know that comments of official SI employees should be ignored?

As others here mentioned before - SI should really work on their communication with the users. That's far from state of the art.

[KUBI]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Sisamom:

And how should anyone know that comments of official SI employees should be ignored?

As others here mentioned before - SI should really work on their communication with the users. That's far from state of the art.

All official news and updates are announced on the forums and also linked in the feedback thread. 

[KUBI]

@Sharkn20

Nobody denies that there are issues with the current ME, but if you visit the tactic forums you will also see that there are ways to bypass it to some extend. 

If you prefer to wait for an ME update, this is ok, but please accept it, if other users still like to play the game.

 

[davehanson]

1 hour ago, anagain said:

Why assume I have inner knowledge? You don't need inner knowledge to understand the difference between a release date notification and the lack of notification of a patch being available. Anyone who follows gaming should know how things work. You didn't ask SI, you asked the forum.

I gave you an answer to your question that I believe SI would be likely to give, in my experience of following a lot of games for a lot of years. Your reply was that you wanted SI to answer it. I wasn't sarcastic, but I told you again that you should believe what I said. You then implied that SI were happy to release an inferior product. No developer does that, or at least no reputable developer. If anyone's words were sarcastic they were yours when you told me my words to you had clarified your view that they happily released a broken product. You are trying to be a wise guy in turning my explanation around. I never clarified anything.

Wind my neck in? You just need to realise how game development works.

Bugs happen. No developer wants it, but they happen. Fixing them is not always a straightforward process. I am sure that SI are as disappointed with things as the players of this fine game are. People just need to have some patience and let them do their job of making things better. SI are not delivering a flawed product in any way on purpose, and they won't be happy with it.

I quoted and asked an SI QA staff. But okay, I see where the issue is now.

[Courage89]

Hello guys,

Wow first time posting since FM Live!!! I can't even remember how long that was ago.. wish they released another version of it because I'd buy it in an instant.

With regards to FM 20, so I have my thoughts with it, good and bad and I'll go through them one by one and try to make as much sense as possible.

I've played since CM 97/98?, nearly every year. I've seen the game grow tremendously and the game has improved out of sight to where it was. I look even back comparing 2016 to now and for the most part it's vastly improved, outside of the ME first of all. The attention to detail now I love in FM 20, looking at the analyst reports, scout cards and attention to detail is fascinating. The ability to control your training, although I'm hopeless at it, is very useful. Graphically it's so good I can't imagine it getting to this stage. The transfer market for the most part this year behaves better. Whenever I spot a kid who looks like he has potential, the big clubs or even medium-large clubs are looking at the player and looking to sign him. The fees are somewhat realistic. I'm unlucky in that, in my main save, Man City have every good young wonderkid in the game and have nailed the tactics for them as well which makes it very hard to beat. I like the way the agents are introduced, the negotation with them and ultimately extending to the board as well, FM20 does a very good job of this. The grading systems for managers seem fairer. I like the input from the board and players, plus the social media feed is a lovely troll to read through. Not a necessity, but i feel is needed because it feels like something a manager would have to look through and it's a modern day occurance at this point.

I do however have some things I don't like and more importantly some things I don't overly understand yet what SI want to do with.

"Realism or casual, or neither?"

SI's direction with the game is... fractured. At least as far as I can see. The game is trying to be realistic which is fantastic. My worry is if it becomes too realistic, I mean, technically only a certain group of individuals will have the tactical nous to go week in and week out in the premier league. Teams switch tactics sometimes in matches 2 or 3 times and are effective in each tactic, usually to throw the opposition off. Those people who can deal with this realism are at best, 1% of their sales. If it's catered to that extent, a lot of people will drop out and SI will lose income as a result of this. The game will become too difficult. 

"Allow a certain space in the game for plug and play for the casual players - it's not a bad thing"

What if you are someone like me, who's not fantastic at tactics and I'll be blunt about myself, would happily look for an effective tactic against the ME on the tactics thread so that I can enjoy the game, primarily by winning games. I believe there's a very large amount of people who are in my position who wait for effective tactics to come out to enjoy the game. This is a clash between realism and the casual fan who still likes **most** of the game and the direction it's going but isn't fantastic tactically. He knows how he wants the team to play but isn't great with the sliders etc and it's effects on the match engine, so trusts those who do test the engine in order to get a better tactic which fits how he likes to play.

With the initial templates on styles of play, I really like this but I'd prefer if they were genuinely viable tactics. It's really hard to setup your team to learn a tactic in around 10-15 games when starting a new save, and getting them to play well. Now in real life this is to be expected, it can take a couple of seasons, like Klopp and Guardiola, but I wouldn't like the idea of buying a game, which is what this is and the players take a season or 2 for me to even be able to do anything. Especially as a "casual" in a tactical sense. The vertical tiki taka and the gegenpress I love the idea of the templates but I wish they were actually viable and could get consistent results. They are essentially meant to be refined and tweaked, but if we could get to a situation where the formation templates are good on a division by division basis and the effectiveness on using them in that particular league is explained so we know what does and what likely won't work at this level due to complexicity, that would be a big leap forward.

Secondly, now moving onto the ME, it feels like statistics shouldn't be the be all and end all but are and certain scripts are always what pop up as the reason a goal is scored. So with regards to statistics, I've seen that SI use real life league by league comparisons to understand how to manage the ME and how it works. Fantastic idea that's great. There's a couple of things I'd query with. Firstly, statistics are a sliding bar and they don't take into account real life changes. The games speeding up and real life football is increasing it's in play time and rules, has there been a suggestion of having FIFA/UEFA bodies be active within the game. So whilst you can't mimic exactly what happens in real life rules wise, certain situations could be run as a script. For example, a statement could be made in game saying "FIFA intends to implement X, Y Z to clear up the offside rule, or FIFA intends to increase in game play time by 5 mins.. with a max/min achievable etc.". This could lead to the game being played needing entirely new tactics for that point in the game, so perhaps the tactics centres on this forum or on steam would be obsolete or change to adapt to those situations. As it stands the game imitates I would think the last 2 or 3 years of statistical analysis in each league? Good for a grasp but doesn't allow the games to develop over time and allow for a more personalised history of your save, based on the changes that could happen in game over time. Not just with teams, but with rules too etc. (I also think the game needs to work hard on referees and VAR but that's for a different day.)

"The problem of positioning and off the ball in FM"

The same scripts tend to be the reason most goals are scored in most match engines. For example I won't go over what's already been said, but, the ball over the top is lethal in this game and no matter how defensive I wish to set the team up, in FM 2016 i believe it was crosses both for and against AI that were the issue, I cannot defend them. I do believe a large part of this is down to the positioning statistic and off the ball. I really do feel these 2 have a massive effect on the match engine and any player I sign going forward I look at those 2 stats. Especially off the ball. It's very rarely I see players over 10 or more in both of those 2 mental abilities. I do feel a big issue with the engine is, unless those 2 are really high and I mean 16 or 17 plus, your player on this ME will make so many mistakes they aren't worth being in defence etc. I see so many defenders who are less than 10 on both, surely at a professional level for the most part they are competent in their positioning? I know we've moved into an era where ball playing defenders are in vogue but not to the extent that no defender is able to defend either? I also note any good tactic now in the game relies solely on pace and acceleration, mostly over 15, but a little lower if you go down the divisions. This isn't for attacking competency but for defending. If I have 2 wingbacks who are very fast and defenders who are over 16 or more in speed and acceleration, in most match engines that means they'll likely perform well with a good tackling stat. Can this not be altered and more work is looked into positioning and off the ball? Those are a big part of the sport nowadays. Maybe it's me I'm not sure.

"Either release the game slightly earlier or more complete"

Looking at the complaints over the years with the releases of the game previously, it feels the game is sold half baked to meet shareholder demands and targets, then the game is developed over time. That's more than likely true. Could we purely have a few years developing the ME to the point now where it's less buggy, potential to have very high graphics and performs without anything massively game breaking (such as the over the top)?

I understand the game is a slow development build and with each alteration it effects something else, but if we get it to a point where the engine becomes somewhat balanced and liked, can we then NOT touch how the match engine works, leave it as it is and purely develop the cosmetic parts of it? It just feels this ME is very infuriating. I've just nipped into the game right now to play for example and I'm away at Chelsea. I've been playing 20 mins and I know exactly what the script is doing and I know a goal is going to come from it against me and I don't really have a way to stop it. Football is random.. to a point, it's not this 50/50 oh well each consequential event within a game happens and that can just explain away everything. Football isn't like that, it isn't that random.

Sorry for the long text. I do have alot more things thinking about the game, but due to the ME and the state it's in right now, I can't play the game unfortunately as I purely find it infuriating. I've never ever been in this position with an FM game before. A position where usually if I'm angry, it's my fault. I can tell the things that went wrong in a given event were things I was in control of and I neglected it or I got it wrong. It doesn't seem the case here. I feel like any formation or tactic I play, the ME is so messed up (for many reasons) that I can't use a plug and play tactic (this may have been SI's intention so forgive me, although I don't think it was wise to stop these tactics) and I don't personally have the prowess tactically to fix the formation and issues when the loss run starts. That's not just me, it's very hard to win against anyone when the script weights happiness quite highly. Or it feels that way but it's hard to stop a rut within the game. Some will say this is realism and maybe so, but THIS. IS. A. GAME., if it goes by realism, SI's large fanbase is whittled down to that 1%. You can't sell or develop a game based on the most realistic assumption of what it is meant to be, it won't work.

I sincerely hope the new match engine build is issued shortly and it rectifies most of the issues people have with the game.

Kind regards,

Wendigo

[Glen_Runciter]

4 hours ago, Glen_Runciter said:

Yeah, so, since I wasn't really experiencing all the well-known troubles while playing the demo, I've decided on buying this year, and what happened was exactly what I was fearing: experiencing all the well-known troubles with the full game.

 

I don't know, man, it's not "broken", not "unplayable", but definitely not a 50$ game.

Another sports franchise infamous of having long-running problems, and gameplay that doesn't simulate the actual sports well, Madden, at least looks like a full-priced game...

Just to be fair, I don't see ALL the problems a lot of people do, wingers do pass, long balls are being properly dealt with by the defenders, but I do have the issue with long shots and set pieces being about as dangerous as clear 1-on-1-s. And since it sometimes feels like human pinball, there are a lot of set pieces...

[IrrelevantLion]

1 hour ago, KUBI said:

@Sharkn20

Nobody denies that there are issues with the current ME, but if you visit the tactic forums you will also see that there are ways to bypass it to some extend. 

If you prefer to wait for an ME update, this is ok, but please accept it, if other users still like to play the game.

 

The thing is a lot of us don't think that's good enough when we spent full price on the game. It's like buying a total war game and being advised to use certain tactics to take advantage of the engine until it's fixed to win battles or take settlements. 

[He can't believe he's missed it]

the release of FM 21 could be interesting for a few reasons.

I've no idea what the number of purchases for the beta are compared to full release, but it's likely that these so called "casual gamers" aren't interested in beta participation or bug reports.

Then consider that a decent proportion of the people on here or in the community are hacked off with the lack of fixes this season and playing full price for this version of the game, then it's less likely they buy early and feedback on bugs or anything needing fixed, so it could hurt the entire process.

Unlike some I won't claim to speak for everyone, but seeing a lot of the retorts on here about finding something else to do has led me to see that I don't really need the game or feel compelled to buy it at release anymore. I always felt the urge to buy everything on release, this was the first year I refused to buy FIFA due to a lack of progress and next year will be the first time since i've been old enough to buy FM for myself ( fm 2008 I think that was)

[JordanMilly]

1 hour ago, He can't believe he's missed it said:

the release of FM 21 could be interesting for a few reasons.

I've no idea what the number of purchases for the beta are compared to full release, but it's likely that these so called "casual gamers" aren't interested in beta participation or bug reports.

Then consider that a decent proportion of the people on here or in the community are hacked off with the lack of fixes this season and playing full price for this version of the game, then it's less likely they buy early and feedback on bugs or anything needing fixed, so it could hurt the entire process.

Unlike some I won't claim to speak for everyone, but seeing a lot of the retorts on here about finding something else to do has led me to see that I don't really need the game or feel compelled to buy it at release anymore. I always felt the urge to buy everything on release, this was the first year I refused to buy FIFA due to a lack of progress and next year will be the first time since i've been old enough to buy FM for myself ( fm 2008 I think that was)

There are lots of people "hacked off" here, as you say. However, I would suggest that even if everyone who posted here saying they won't pre-order FM21 don't, it won't make a significant difference in pre-order sales. I'd wager over 90% of people pre-order for the beta period to help with bug reports and the like (like you said), but just to get to play the game 2-3 weeks earlier.

Also, as Miles has said, over a million people have bought the game, there's usually 65-75,000 people playing it at any one time, and usually 150,000 plus people play it each day. Compare that even to everyone who is registered on the forum, and the forum quickly becomes a drop in the bucket.

I respect people saying they won't pre-order until they see if a game is decent, I do that too (except, ironically, for FM). If people honestly don't trust the game to be how they want it to be from launch, and aren't willing to play it unless it meets their expectations, they're entirely within their rights to not pre-order. I do, however, fully believe that SI are always working as hard as they're able to in order to make the best game they can, given the size of their studio compared to many games developers, and that if fixes are taking time to be released, it's not because they can't be bothered or don't care, but because they're trying to make sure that any fixes they release, given the sheer number of variables in the Match Engine, don't then go on to break other things.

If I didn't think they cared about the game they make, I wouldn't have agreed to become a mod for them when recently asked to be one, and I wouldn't still be buying and playing FM - I'd have decided the game and SI were no longer worth my time and money, and moved onto things that I enjoy, rather than spending my limited free time angry about it.

[bleventozturk]

Just went back to FM 17, for comparison. I have stopped playing FM 17 the last few weeks, and slowly got more involved with FM 20. When I watched some highlights from my last few matches in FM 17, it made me a little upset about the state of the FM 20 ME. There is really a HUGE drop in quality in how the ME plays on the screen. Doesn't mean that the ME hasn't developed 'under the hood' since then, but...

The only reason I can't continue playing FM 17 is the newgens unfortunately. I really enjoyed about 8 seasons in that game, but the newgen lack of versatility (positional and distribution of attributes) made it very dull for me. Moreover, the AI in that game is awful in terms of developing talent and re-training newgens in new positions. With a very few exceptions, the entire DB is filled with players who are natural at 1 position only. You can retrain them, but what is the point of doing that if AI doesn't. 

But yes, that's off topic. Going back to the current ME, it is really hard to understand how with 3 years of development time we are where we are. Defending is just horrendous compared to FM 17, it reminds me of arcade games from 90ies.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by bleventozturk

[bleventozturk]

I may be wrong, but it seems like part of the reason that the ME presentation looks unrealistic is the animations in 3D. I tried watching some matches in 2D, and it doesn't look as bad. Sure, the fundamental issues are still there, but I think the new 3D look also contributes to the unrealistic look of the player movement/reactions.

Edited January 12, 2020 by bleventozturk

[Pasonen]

10 hours ago, vence said:

I may be biased on this one but I also find out that scoring CCC are easier against better(attacking) opponents. This may be the reason behind overachieving as I have seen some overachieving users are finding ccc converted with high frequency. What I can say from my experience is, my team is converting CCC against tougher (Champions League) teams frequently than easier (domestic relegation candidates) opponents.

You're not alone with this one. At least me and my friend have completely lost motivation partly because of this and the rest because of 1on1's and super goalies.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Pasonen

[higgins]

9 hours ago, KUBI said:

@Sharkn20

Nobody denies that there are issues with the current ME, but if you visit the tactic forums you will also see that there are ways to bypass it to some extend. 

If you prefer to wait for an ME update, this is ok, but please accept it, if other users still like to play the game.

 

You’re right, exploitative tactics still work, regarding the rest we have some problems...

Edited January 12, 2020 by higgins

[thejay]

I really think the new defensive instructions especially defensive width which was introduced in fm19 fundamentally messed with the match engine and exposed its flaws in the attacking part. 

 

Defending is now more realistic but attacking decsion making from the players can't keep up while this was masked in previous versions with less realistic defending. 

 

I really fell for it when fm20 was advertised with better offensive movement, I really though it was massively improved but I was wrong.

 

Definitely won't be fooled again and buy the next game at release 

 

[Mitja]

11 minutes ago, thejay said:

really think the new defensive instructions especially defensive width which was introduced in fm19 fundamentally messed with the match engine and exposed its flaws in the attacking part. 

100%

Another thing is that TC keeps evolving, adding new stuff. But mentality based tactical approach is outdated. We need real tactics such that will play what they're supposed to and mentality holds it down.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Mitja

[fm2020.smith]

what happened to the german licence> i thought the germany national team was fixed now but its selecting players that dont exist 

[JordanMilly]

30 minutes ago, fm2020.smith said:

what happened to the german licence> i thought the germany national team was fixed now but its selecting players that dont exist 

That started happening part way through FM19 - I think potentially the license for the Bundesliga through to 3.Liga didn't actually cover the national team, so SI had to roll back the licensing for the national team, putting it back to how it was originally. 

[Etebaer]

Am 11.1.2020 um 01:10 schrieb grade:

Then where do you see those stats?

Steam shows how much Players were online at the same time - as some log out, other log in, the amount of Players that played a game at some time any given day is much higher.

And SI probably has a more detailed measured stat than what steam shows...

[davehanson]

12 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

There are lots of people "hacked off" here, as you say. However, I would suggest that even if everyone who posted here saying they won't pre-order FM21 don't, it won't make a significant difference in pre-order sales. I'd wager over 90% of people pre-order for the beta period to help with bug reports and the like (like you said), but just to get to play the game 2-3 weeks earlier.

Also, as Miles has said, over a million people have bought the game, there's usually 65-75,000 people playing it at any one time, and usually 150,000 plus people play it each day. Compare that even to everyone who is registered on the forum, and the forum quickly becomes a drop in the bucket.

I respect people saying they won't pre-order until they see if a game is decent, I do that too (except, ironically, for FM). If people honestly don't trust the game to be how they want it to be from launch, and aren't willing to play it unless it meets their expectations, they're entirely within their rights to not pre-order. I do, however, fully believe that SI are always working as hard as they're able to in order to make the best game they can, given the size of their studio compared to many games developers, and that if fixes are taking time to be released, it's not because they can't be bothered or don't care, but because they're trying to make sure that any fixes they release, given the sheer number of variables in the Match Engine, don't then go on to break other things.

If I didn't think they cared about the game they make, I wouldn't have agreed to become a mod for them when recently asked to be one, and I wouldn't still be buying and playing FM - I'd have decided the game and SI were no longer worth my time and money, and moved onto things that I enjoy, rather than spending my limited free time angry about it.

This is a really good post. I personally won't be pre-ordering FM next year for the first time I can remember. Do I expect it will have any effect on SI? No I don't. 

I don't really think the argument that they are a small studio compared to others holds weight though. What I mean by that is that SI/Sega (I don't want to assume who takes what of the profits) make a lot of money every single year. Miles said the other day that sales had just surpassed 1m copies. If you said an 'average' copy was £30 then that is £30m. SI employee about 130 people. So there is a lot of money that could possibly be used to employee more people to make the game better and fix it quicker. Let me say that companies need to make profit, SI and Sega are no different. 

I just hope that they do take on board the feelings of the community in general. Although you say the forum is a drop in the bucket I would argue that these people are the more dedicated players. They are the ones that in 9 months time are still playing (or perhaps not playing in this years edition) the game, whereas the casual gamer has just gone onto something else. For instance the only 2 PC games I ever played were FM and Total War. Because of how I see the game, and specifically the ME this year, I have taken out the Origin game pass and bought a few games over Christmas like The Divison 2, Witcher 3 & Beyond 2 Souls. I would never have played these before this years version of FM.

I have a mate who runs a pub. It is a little side street pub, not a big chain high street type. He forked out nearly £1000 in December just to have the ability to show the football games from Amazon. I forget exactly what he told me his Sky Sports was a month, but it was something like £500 a month, plus any box office events (the Joshua fight was £400) and BT Sport. I asked him over Christmas why he bothered with the Amazon one as there is no way he could have made £1000 back in extra sales. He said because if he didn't someone else would and his customers would go there and he would never get them back.  

Edited January 12, 2020 by davehanson

[Etebaer]

From watching Lets PLays i can say that most of the german youtubers i watch call the game this year having a bad ME.

BollBpLP. the Scribe, TBM etc.

The only ones not criticising it are Rocket Beans bcs they have no experience with the game and their 2 Player LP is using Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund - the 2 top flights in Germany.

Both of them have no clue what they are doing and the one leading the league does so bcs he manages Bayern Munich and the other expects to lose bcs he is a chaotic loser.

 

As SI moved the game in a direction that the ability of Players is weighted heavier since FM19 compared to FM18 i.e. and stays on that route for FM20 many People who only ever manage the top flights in each league are Winning bcs of the superior Players at their Hand and they only measure the game on their leage standing and nothing else...you will only hear complaints from them when they not win as much as they have gotten used to.

 

You will only hear sensible critic from People that care for the simlulation aspect and there are 2 Schools - the quantitiy School who stares at stats and the Quality School who stares at how the games are played and if cause and effect fit reaslism and logic plus In the end all people want an exciting, enjoyable product!

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Etebaer

[Dagenham_Dave]

19 minutes ago, Etebaer said:

From watching Lets PLays i can say that most of the german youtubers i watch call the game this year having a bad ME.

BollBpLP. the Scribe, TBM etc.

 

 

Nonsense, the Scribe has fiercely defended criticism of the game in his videos, unless he's changed his tune over the last few days. 

[Mitja]

25 minutes ago, davehanson said:

I don't really think the argument that they are a small studio compared to others holds weight though. What I mean by that is that SI/Sega (I don't want to assume who takes what of the profits) make a lot of money every single year. Miles said the other day that sales had just surpassed 1m copies. If you said an 'average' copy was £30 then that is £30m. SI employee about 130 people. So there is a lot of money that could possibly be used to employee more people to make the game better and fix it quicker. Let me say that companies need to make profit, SI and Sega are no different. 

 

but you have been here long enough to know when the game becomes polished and there's also demo to try. I think it's their buisness how and when they do stuff. but I agree with people they should let us know will there be any patch before march. just say yes or no. such silence is really bad attitude towards paying costumers. be honest nothing more.

[davehanson]

13 minutes ago, Mitja said:

but you have been here long enough to know when the game becomes polished and there's also demo to try. I think it's their buisness how and when they do stuff. but I agree with people they should let us know will there be any patch before march. just say yes or no. such silence is really bad attitude towards paying costumers. be honest nothing more.

Yes you are correct. However, by now, I would expect the game to be enjoyable and to me playable. I don't mean that it is broken as others have said. It is to me not playable because there are too many errors in the ME which is the fundamental part of the game. If it was just polishing at this stage it would be fine, but in my opinion it is far more than that.

It is their business how and when they do stuff, but just going back to my post above, I won't pre-order. As I said will it make a difference to SI - again as I said no it will not. But if people all of a sudden thought bugger it I won't buy until March when the game is enjoyable and 'polished' they, SI, could find themselves in a tricky position.

Communication is shocking. Always has been. A month on nearly from Neil's post that they know the community has seen issues and they are on their radar and still we don't know anything more. If I send a job to one of my customers that they are not then happy with there is no way I could leave it a month before I talk to them again. 

Edited January 12, 2020 by davehanson

[Mitja]

@davehanson

While I agree with you about me issues and enjoyment, SI seems to be satisfied with me currently and it is their right we shouldn't question too much. I also agree that me issues can't be compared to any other, except those directly affecting playability. This forum represents only small portion of playerbase, but many of us more experienced players have been supporting CM/FM for really long time and maybe even helped SI to be where they are now. I think the only issue here is how they treat us, no other. If you don't like the game don't buy it, it's simple as that. I still haven't. And it's not about 50 euro. 

[rjferguson90]

17 hours ago, KUBI said:

Nobody denies that there are issues with the current ME, but if you visit the tactic forums you will also see that there are ways to bypass it to some extend. 

 

I'm sorry, but I honestly find it incredible that this was posted. Arguably the most crucial part of the game is totally unsatisfactory to most users, and you're suggesting that people should visit the tactics forum to exploit the bugs and errors. Unbelievable.

[KlaaZ]

2 hours ago, davehanson said:

This is a really good post. I personally won't be pre-ordering FM next year for the first time I can remember. Do I expect it will have any effect on SI? No I don't. 

I don't really think the argument that they are a small studio compared to others holds weight though. What I mean by that is that SI/Sega (I don't want to assume who takes what of the profits) make a lot of money every single year. Miles said the other day that sales had just surpassed 1m copies. If you said an 'average' copy was £30 then that is £30m. SI employee about 130 people. So there is a lot of money that could possibly be used to employee more people to make the game better and fix it quicker. Let me say that companies need to make profit, SI and Sega are no different. 

Revenue is not the same as profit. Assuming your numbers are correct, I'd reckon their wage bill alone Employing 130 people alone will cost you about 9-10M, everything included (bonuses, taxes,...). And that's just the wage bill and doesn't take into account the other costs they have. I think you grossly overestimate how much of that 30M is left at the end of the day.  

[Chris21]

I'm more annoyed because I actually have a good save going which is rare with how busy life is these days, but I can't bare the ME any longer. I'm not really one to post on here to be critical because it's not really me but I'm desperate to play FM but unless a patch is imminent I'm probably gonna return to last year maybe even 2018. Like I said I have good save, a successful one from the lower leagues working my way up but its not just enjoyable at all.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Chris21

[Rashidi]

Enough of going off topic guys. I am not giving each one of you an individual pm explaining why your posts are being hidden, you should know why. Please refrain from these digs at SI staff, they are uncalled for.

[CaptainPlanet]

I'd say my perception from what the issues are and the SI responses, it looks like nuances are missed in favour of aggregated averages from testing. This may not be true but it is how it seems to be coming across.  

E.g. On average players are scoring penalties at the same rate as the real life league average, but the spread is different. Or scorelines are on average 3-1 as per the norm but is missing how many 0-0s and 7-4 results there are.  

To me this is where the ME and general game issues seem apparent to me when playing, games and features seem often at extreme ends and the response is "but on average it's normal".  

And then you have 115 pages of people arguing about what normal is.

[DennisVT1]

Yeah, sorry this year's edition has the same corrupt system as the previous ones.
First season everything is quite normal, fair results, statistics, gameplay, everything.

Then comes the second season. Starts all right, normal results, player statistics, goals for and against, then all hell breaks loose. I have 3 world class strikers, but no goals. I have a then 7 time ballon d'or winner whose average ratings drops below 6.50 over 10-15 games. 
I get a red card every 2nd or 3rd game. Every 3rd goal I score gets disallowed and I start to get unbelievable, unrealistic results like concedeing 5 at home agains a relegation-threatened team.

All this without me changing anything at regular training, tactics, player roles whatsoever. Just unvelievable and so unrealistic out of nowhere.

Edit: Forgot a funny part:

There was a game with unrealistic events and result. I realoaded 4 times, happened all over again. Not the same things, but similar. Lost all four against a weaker team. I tried to change a few things every time, nothing worked.

Edited January 12, 2020 by DennisVT1

[KUBI]

vor 1 Minute schrieb DennisVT1:

All this without me changing anything at regular training, tactics, player roles whatsoever. Just unvelievable and so unrealistic out of nowhere.

AI teams change their tactics when you finished above expectations. If you change nothing this might be the reason for your bad run. 

[Svenc]

9 minutes ago, DennisVT1 said:

Then comes the second season. Starts all right, normal results, player statistics, goals for and against, then all hell breaks loose. I have 3 world class strikers, but no goals. I have a then 7 time ballon d'or winner whose average ratings drops below 6.50 over 10-15 games. 

Is FM 20 the first ever release to simulate the **** occuring in Football?  
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/why-cristiano-ronaldo-has-been-real-madrids-major-problem-season-he-can-also-be-their

[rp1966]

Oh God ... I've just had a match in the snow for the first time - I say snow, it's more like a hard-wearing grey office carpet ... with what appear to be clouds painted on it.

Seriously, seriously bad texture work and that's before questioning the fact that the stadium should have under-soil heating. I honestly have no idea what that is meant to be representing ....

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by rp1966

[Federico]

58 minuti fa, Svenc ha scritto:

Is FM 20 the first ever release to simulate the **** occuring in Football?  
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/why-cristiano-ronaldo-has-been-real-madrids-major-problem-season-he-can-also-be-their

Sorry. I think it would be helpful for people here if sometimes you could report some further examples than this about Ronaldo having one season off along a +20 years career, you're using this basically for anything when something's wrong with the engine (especially while trying to explain shots aimed to corner flags in FM18. So yeah, in 2018 you were speaking already about this poor season of Ronaldo).

Maybe next time let's bring on examples from his best season? I think that would be a good example on how even Ronaldo in his best season had some difficult situation to handle with