Semi Final 2: Croatia Vs England (ITV, KO @19:00)

[warlock]

There'll be a terrible inquest in the media tomorrow/today, and the nay-sayers will be louder than ever, but let's be honest... England have done well. Yes, they got the breaks in the tournament, yes, they were often mediocre, but a World Cup semi-final is a brilliant achievement (does anyone think Argentina, Brazil, Germany are thinking, "yeah - we did okay?")

In the end we went further than we probably deserved, but there's no need to apologise for that. We did it, and a lot of other countries didn't. Let's look forward two years to the next Euro championships!

[JD nawrat]

My guess is Southgate believes in theory that Sterling stretching the defence and leaving Kane deeper intentionally will give him more time and space to pick out wherever he wants with his shots. 

But the stupid bugger wasn't getting any good shots from open play because he didn't MOVE.

I honestly don't know how England have played 5 games, two of them with 120 mins, with Harry Kane not moving and Southgate hasn't thought just once to tell him to try moving a bit more. 

It's actually so stupid

but maybe 6 goals meant Southgate didn't feel it fair to criticise him or something. Idk. It's just bizarre all round. My biggest disappointment of this WC tbh. And yet he will win the Golden Boot and just like Messi's Golden Ball win in 2014, people will forget how it was won and recall it like it was a great piece of history. 6 WC goals (still time for more) and all of them from setpieces or penalties. This from arguably the best out and out ST in world football right now.

[bestbrother]

for me it just feels like a wasted opportunity. forget everything else...we are 1 up at half time in a semi against croatia... and we lose out.

for as much goodwill as southgate has garnered, he has to be held accountable for his game management or lack of.

qatar is just going to be a mess of a cup, so we can add 8 more years to our song 

[Svenc]

4 hours ago, JDownie said:

Holy ****

I've just saw Kane miss about the 30th minute. How hasn't he scored? For a player of Kane's ability that should be instantly in the back of the net. Worst miss of the tournament for England, that

Mail Sander Ijtsma (11tegen11), he'll likely tell you something about it.   (I've personally contacted him twice about something and got an instant reply, nice man).  Btw. those timelines are pretty neat and could be useful even on FM with the limited and hugely flawed stats it has now, no less as how dynamical AI appraoches matches. Many of those "statistically" one sided matches on FM come about as a) the AI takes an early lead and closes shop or b) finally cracks and concedes the 0-1 and then finally stops bunkering, as else it's guaranteed to lose. No final match stat screen posted all over the wider FM community ever since has ever told the "story" of a match.

[dking]

4 hours ago, bestbrother said:

for me it just feels like a wasted opportunity. forget everything else...we are 1 up at half time in a semi against croatia... and we lose out.

for as much goodwill as southgate has garnered, he has to be held accountable for his game management or lack of.

qatar is just going to be a mess of a cup, so we can add 8 more years to our song 

Agree with the first part. Will never get an easier route to a final.

I can't blame Southgate for having mostly average players at his disposal.

[nico_france]

Kane had been dreadful yesterday

According me as a neutral viewer, he could have costed you the final

[Weezer]

For all the pundits banging on about how it’s great that England have a system now and all the players know what they’re doing they sure fell apart quickly when they had any kind of pressure on them. Southgate is a lovely bloke and his man management seems spot on but I think this tournament has shown him up to be a decent manager and nothing more.

No point in laying into the team now though, it’s not like we’re suddenly a great team and we’ve blown a World Cup semi. We’re still the same fragile and panicky England we’ve always been, it’s just this time with a bit of spirit and luck we’ve managed to scrap our way through to the latter stages of a tournament.

[Constantine]

Kane was dreadful this whole championship. Which was kinda expected. No service for him upfront and he's for some reason forced to drop a lot deeper than he was used to. It's different when you have Eriksen behind you, compared to Lindgard or Henderson. 

[Weezer]

4 minutes ago, nico_france said:

Kane had been dreadful yesterday

According me as a neutral viewer, he could have costed you the final

Once defenders got wise to the fact that if you put your hands on him at a set piece he’ll go down Kane’s usefulness in this tournament was almost nil.

[Razzler]

Disappointing.

I'd have taken a semi final before the tournament all day freaking long. To get there and play Croatia and lose out though. To get there and be 1-0 up at half time and doing fine as well. I am sure Croatia prefered to play us than Spain or Germany too, it's just how it is.

It went sideways in the 2nd half, 1st half we were in control, maybe could have nicked another goal. In the 2nd half there was a lot more nerves and tension. No one wanted to come get the ball from the keeper anymore, he's knocking it long, giving the ball back. No idea why they stopped that, stupid.

We're doing this 'build from the back' but the players aren't 100% comfortable with it, it's like they're trying it on. All the opposition need to do is move up on them and they panic a bit. Someone like Spain can play out like that, play around the forwards that pushed up. We constantly went back again cause we know about keeping the ball but don't quite have it ingrained in us to play out in that way. Then, we stopped doing it entirely!

I kind of forgot Stones had that chance from the header that was cleared off the line too. Walker is not a centre back, we need to do something about that cause Trippier seems to have nailed down that right side. Stones totally switched off for their winning goal. I mean, the ball loops up and is going to be contested around the box, how are you not anticipating that could drop near you? This is where tiredness comes in too, not physical but mental, he switched off for that second.

Considering our showing in recent tournaments, a semi final appearance represents a huge improvement. I don't care who we played, the draw opens up sometimes. If 'big teams' aren't good enough to top their group then so be it.

The players should take heart from this that you don't need to be a team of world beaters to compete later in a tournament, you can get there without being a 'golden generation' or a team of Madrid players.

We knew going in we lacked the creative spark, a role that is outsoured across the Premier League, banging the same drum about the league for 20 years, about imports, about chances for English players. There's no chance to grow, you need to be a fully formed amazing player to compete with the 'world's best' in such roles, it's unlikely to change anytime soon.

We do have quick players though but I am not sure we saw enough going forward from Lingard or Alli, for instance. There were glimpses when they had the ball in the final 1/3 but not sure we really got stuck into them or chased them enough when they were leading or when we were level.

At least some 'hope' has returned, hopefully we can build on it but it's really so disappointing that this feels like a lost opportunity against a team that isn't the super super top tier (neither are we) to get to a World Cup Final.

Oh well ... we go again

[pearcey_90]

I feel Kane has been playing with some sort of injury. Wouldn’t be surprised if come end of World Cup it comes out that he has surgery on a particular injury and is out for a few months. 

[deltablue]

My FM save had England beating Croatia in the 2018 WC final. While things obviously didn't quite work out that way, it's still ended up a lot closer to reality than I expected.

[oche balboa]

We need a creative midfield and a Andy Carroll type of Striker in our squad to offer something different, 

Dele Alli was disappointing, didn’t offer much all game. Lingard was in and out the game. The midfield isn’t good enough in reality

Maguire was superb all tournament as too Pickford & Tripper. 

Disappointing as it was, we would have all took the semi finals. Let’s learn from the mistakes and Build for Euro 2020. & World Cup 2022

[Bigwig]

I think everyone would have taken the semis before the tournament started but it’s no less disappointing to lose. 

There was a lack of experience all round, including the manager. I’ve lost count of the number of interviews Southgate gave where he talked about the formation and the ‘system’ like they were set in stone and unchangeable. The top managers are able to adapt the team and tactics to the opposition and how the game pans out but Southgate seemed more like someone playing FM who sets up one tactic, drops the players in then doesn’t bother taking them out between games and just leaves them in for the next one unless they’re injured. 

On the plus side it’s fantastic how the tournament has managed to get people caring about the national team again. I count myself as one of those who didn’t really care about the national side but have really got behind them this tournament. Hopefully they can kick on from this. 

[Baptista_8]

Kane definitely had a very poor tournament, kinda embarrassing how he's won the golden boot. He didn't even own up to the first half chance he missed last night in his interview.

[Paul Bacon]

We certainly need to have a plan B and be able to change the system to suit the game. When things didnt go to plan in the Tunisia, Columbia and Croatia game we looked clueless. Its fine when things are going our way, but when not we dont seem to be able to change to the conditions

[Bigwig]

That’s where I don’t think the squad selection really helped. There wasn’t really enough options to try something different. Taking off Henderson for Dier isn’t really going to change much. 

[bestbrother]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

For all the pundits banging on about how it’s great that England have a system now and all the players know what they’re doing they sure fell apart quickly when they had any kind of pressure on them. Southgate is a lovely bloke and his man management seems spot on but I think this tournament has shown him up to be a decent manager and nothing more.

No point in laying into the team now though, it’s not like we’re suddenly a great team and we’ve blown a World Cup semi. We’re still the same fragile and panicky England we’ve always been, it’s just this time with a bit of spirit and luck we’ve managed to scrap our way through to the latter stages of a tournament.

Southgate is a manager who knows what answer to give all the time when you get a question on FM from the media or a player interaction. He conducts himself well and I feel for him as you know he cares and that he is not in this job for the money or to use it to get big money elsewhere.

However will that get us anywhere? For all this togetherness in the team, we looked out of sorts once Croatia got their foot on the ball. The one time we needed to dig in and rally, we couldnt do it. The one time we needed positive subs to make an impact and or change of approach... we couldnt do it.

I dont want him sacked or think he should be, I just hope he has learned alot from this tournament and isnt going to rest on his laurels believing that he worked wonders to get us to the Semis, because he could easily set us back once more.

[CFuller]

1 hour ago, deltablue said:

My FM save had England beating Croatia in the 2018 WC final. While things obviously didn't quite work out that way, it's still ended up a lot closer to reality than I expected.

In my FM17 England save, we lost to Belgium (in extra-time) in the 2018 World Cup Semi Final, and then beat Chile in the 3rd-Place Play-Off.

Belgium beat France 4-0 in the Final. Croatia lost to Switzerland in the second round.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I love how international football usually has pretty random results in FM but this World Cup has actually followed it pretty closely.

[Bigwig]

Southgate reminds me a lot of Glen Roeder’s time at Newcastle. Lovely guy who you really want to do well, but ultimately he’s in a job that’s probably too big for him. 

As things stand he’ll definitely be around for the Euros unless there’s some scandal or a bad qualifying campaign, but neither seem likely.  Best we can hope for is that he’s learned from this and grows into the role. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

9 minutes ago, bestbrother said:

Southgate is a manager who knows what answer to give all the time when you get a question on FM from the media or a player interaction. He conducts himself well and I feel for him as you know he cares and that he is not in this job for the money or to use it to get big money elsewhere.

However will that get us anywhere? For all this togetherness in the team, we looked out of sorts once Croatia got their foot on the ball. The one time we needed to dig in and rally, we couldnt do it. The one time we needed positive subs to make an impact and or change of approach... we couldnt do it.

I dont want him sacked or think he should be, I just hope he has learned alot from this tournament and isnt going to rest on his laurels believing that he worked wonders to get us to the Semis, because he could easily set us back once more.

I agree with this a lot. I think tactically Southgate comes up short quite a bit. But he did a really good job of producing a good team spirit which I think counts for a hell of a lot at international level. We've had better teams with better tactics in recent tournaments but because the players didn't really enjoy the environment they produced really terrible performances.

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I agree with this a lot. I think tactically Southgate comes up short quite a bit. But he did a really good job of producing a good team spirit which I think counts for a hell of a lot at international level. We've had better teams with better tactics in recent tournaments but because the players didn't really enjoy the environment they produced really terrible performances.

I think that's where he must look to improve during the Nations league or whatever the hell it's caused. The mentality has changed for tbe better, now we need to improve tactically. I still don't understand not bringing on Delph second half, let alone not starting him. 

[m_fenton]

10 minutes ago, bestbrother said:

Southgate is a manager who knows what answer to give all the time when you get a question on FM from the media or a player interaction. He conducts himself well and I feel for him as you know he cares and that he is not in this job for the money or to use it to get big money elsewhere.

However will that get us anywhere? For all this togetherness in the team, we looked out of sorts once Croatia got their foot on the ball. The one time we needed to dig in and rally, we couldnt do it. The one time we needed positive subs to make an impact and or change of approach... we couldnt do it.

 I dont want him sacked or think he should be, I just hope he has learned alot from this tournament and isnt going to rest on his laurels believing that he worked wonders to get us to the Semis, because he could easily set us back once more.

Looks like you watched a different tournament to me!

Firstly - "However will that get us anywhere?" - It got us the 2nd furthest we've ever got.

Secondly - "The one time we needed to dig in and rally, we couldnt do it." - We needed to rally against Tunisia and Colombia, and did.

Thirdly - "The one time we needed positive subs to make an impact and or change of approach... we couldnt do it." - The subs made a difference against Tunisia.

 

Personally, I think Southgate did poorly last night. However, over the tournament as a whole, fantastically. It was a system designed to get the best out of our strengths, and for the most part it worked. The subs he made weren't great, but the bigger problem was an ineffective Kane up front.

It will be interesting to see what our approach is in 2020/22. I wouldn't be surprised to see the system completely changed - depending who's available at the time. 7 of our starting 11 v Iceland didn't start v Croatia, a hell of a lot can change in 2 years.

[Mark H]

I'm happy with what we've achieved. I think Southgate only needs minor changes to a system that isn't quite good enough yet...

Our biggest problem is midfield. We have 1 midfielder, and 3 AMs running away from the ball. Kane then drops deep to fill that gap. 3 is too many.... It also hinders our ability to play out the back as Henderson is our only choice for our defence to play to, and he can be marked or outnumbered, so we have to go long

We needed another man in the middle last night, so the formation becomes a more natural 343. Ideally you want that to be Henderson and a player that is happy playing the ball in tight positions, playing the ball forward and being sensible enough to offer numbers in the middle. Not Dier and Henderson. But Henderson/Dier + Another. Then we choose which 2 players (Lingard, Sterling) to play behind/with Kane. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

4 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I think that's where he must look to improve during the Nations league or whatever the hell it's caused. The mentality has changed for tbe better, now we need to improve tactically. I still don't understand not bringing on Delph second half, let alone not starting him. 

Alli and Lingard playing 120 minutes was a bit mad, especially considering how much work they are expecting to put in to make it work.

[Sons FC]

1 hour ago, Razzler said:

Disappointing.

I'd have taken a semi final before the tournament all day freaking long. To get there and play Croatia and lose out though. To get there and be 1-0 up at half time and doing fine as well. I am sure Croatia prefered to play us than Spain or Germany too, it's just how it is.

It went sideways in the 2nd half, 1st half we were in control, maybe could have nicked another goal. In the 2nd half there was a lot more nerves and tension. No one wanted to come get the ball from the keeper anymore, he's knocking it long, giving the ball back. No idea why they stopped that, stupid.

We're doing this 'build from the back' but the players aren't 100% comfortable with it, it's like they're trying it on. All the opposition need to do is move up on them and they panic a bit. Someone like Spain can play out like that, play around the forwards that pushed up. We constantly went back again cause we know about keeping the ball but don't quite have it ingrained in us to play out in that way. Then, we stopped doing it entirely!

I kind of forgot Stones had that chance from the header that was cleared off the line too. Walker is not a centre back, we need to do something about that cause Trippier seems to have nailed down that right side. Stones totally switched off for their winning goal. I mean, the ball loops up and is going to be contested around the box, how are you not anticipating that could drop near you? This is where tiredness comes in too, not physical but mental, he switched off for that second.

Considering our showing in recent tournaments, a semi final appearance represents a huge improvement. I don't care who we played, the draw opens up sometimes. If 'big teams' aren't good enough to top their group then so be it.

The players should take heart from this that you don't need to be a team of world beaters to compete later in a tournament, you can get there without being a 'golden generation' or a team of Madrid players.

We knew going in we lacked the creative spark, a role that is outsoured across the Premier League, banging the same drum about the league for 20 years, about imports, about chances for English players. There's no chance to grow, you need to be a fully formed amazing player to compete with the 'world's best' in such roles, it's unlikely to change anytime soon.

We do have quick players though but I am not sure we saw enough going forward from Lingard or Alli, for instance. There were glimpses when they had the ball in the final 1/3 but not sure we really got stuck into them or chased them enough when they were leading or when we were level.

At least some 'hope' has returned, hopefully we can build on it but it's really so disappointing that this feels like a lost opportunity against a team that isn't the super super top tier (neither are we) to get to a World Cup Final.

Oh well ... we go again

Great post Razzie.

[forameuss]

They  can't have any complaints really.  Thought they shaded the first half - easily better for the opening period before letting Croatia come back into it.  From the moment they stepped out in the second half they looked genuinely afraid.  Croatia grew and grew, easily dominated the game, and once they scored it looked like there were only two outcomes - England survived long enough to take it to penalties or Croatia won.  They got the latter.  Kane was largely anonymous, as were a lot of the players, but it was just the fear that seemed to be running through them that really stuck out.  Croatia looked like they were feeling that early on, but England just didn't take advantage of it.

This feels different to normal though.  Usually there's something in it.  "We had a goal disallowed", "Beckham got sent off", "we were so close".  This time though, it wasn't like that, and they should feel all the better for it.  They simply came up against a team that were a match for them, went toe-to-toe, and they lost.  I don't think there's really anything for them to be ashamed about, they just weren't good enough.  Last 4 is over-achieving for them, and if they're sensible they can go on and actually make something out of it.

[Razzler]

I know they had chances later on but we had glimpses, Stones header is a killer, so close. There was that ball tee'd up for Lingard that was deflected for a corner too. Sterling caused problems in the first half. They did not look good in the first half, they have more experienced players but it doesn't take much experience to know to react when a ball is being contested 5  yards from you.

It's in the details and the moments, they have the experience and the 'big game' players and we shrank a fair bit in the 2nd half. We needed guys to be on the ball, it's some of our same failings, being comfortable with the ball at our feet.

The whole 'knocking it about the back' is a start but you can tell this is not a natural thing for these players. It's just a damn shame we didn't kick on from that 1st half, we were in reasonable control of the game at that point so it definitely feels like we threw it away just a little a bit and didn't help ourselves, we caused a lot of our own problems again

[Coulthard's Jaw]

We lost in the wrong way, we needed to keep passing it in the second half. If Croatia press us and pick us off, so be it, but we got a bit scared and Pickford started hoofing it towards no one in particular and it just kind of spiralled.

[Anti Spiral]

Does Pickford shout at his players much? There were a few times near the end where defenders were having communication errors (including the goal).

[Bigwig]

6 minutes ago, Anti Spiral said:

Does Pickford shout at his players much? There were a few times near the end where defenders were having communication errors (including the goal).

I saw him shouting and was impressed that a young keeper would have the confidence to berate his defence. However, I only reallly noticed him shouting after a shot had been made so didn’t really notice if he was shouting during play. 

[Bigwig]

Hopefully last night will put an end to people calling for Rashford over Sterling but I doubt it. 

Sterling and Kane don’t seem to like passing to each other in the final area though. Maybe City should sign Kane to improve their partnership. 

[RodentofDoom]

Look at the positives

 - We reached the Semi-Final

 - We won a Penalty shoot-out !!!!!!!!

 

Yes it was a largely young and inexperienced side, but over-all they did well.

It wasn't lack of desire or determination that lost them the game, Croatia just had more experienced players who were better able to conserve energy for when it was really needed.

Kane is still most likely going to be the winner of the Golden Boot, an award he looks to win by a comfortable margin.

[GunmaN1905]

It's a good idea to have a system, but like half of the team weren't playing in their natural positions/roles.

Walker can't be a CB against any decent team.
Lingard and Alli are obviously used to different midfield roles, Henderson was all alone when Croatia took the game over and they were useless.
Sterling was good, but throughout the tournament it's been obvious that he's far better on the wing.
Young playing as the left wingback. Rose is probably replacing him after the tournament, so not that big of an issue.
Kane also looked lost in that deeper role.

You need to find anoter proper central midfielder as soon as possible.
Even if he's not on top level,  this midfield won't work against any decent opposition.

[Bigwig]

Was Walker injured in extra time?  When Trippier was receiving extensive treatment after 90mins I assumed he would be subbed and Walker would move to the right, but Walker went off instead and then Trippier broke down not long after. 

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

It's a good idea to have a system, but like half of the team weren't playing in their natural positions/roles.

Walker can't be a CB against any decent team.
Lingard and Alli are obviously used to different midfield roles, Henderson was all alone when Croatia took the game over and they were useless.
Sterling was good, but throughout the tournament it's been obvious that he's far better on the wing.
Young playing as the left wingback. Rose is probably replacing him after the tournament, so not that big of an issue.
Kane also looked lost in that deeper role.

You need to find anoter proper central midfielder as soon as possible.
Even if he's not on top level,  this midfield won't work against any decent opposition.

We had one. He was sat on the bench (Delph). Even had RLC there too

[Coulthard's Jaw]

It felt like Gareth was making subs for injury reasons and was holding back on subs because he was worried certain players were going to break down. Probably inaccurate analysis but I'm struggling to work out why he waited so long to make subs and why he subbed off the players he did.

[Bigwig]

I thought during the end of normal play he was keeping subs back for extra time and then during extra time he was thinking about penalties.  

A braver manager might have been doing more to try and win the game, but I think Southgate is very much a cautious manager. 

[av3ry]

Pickford

Walker--Stones--Maguire

Trippier--Henderson--Cook/Delph/Ward-Prowse/Shelvey--Young/Rose

Alli/Lingard

Kane--Sterling

 

Play this in September against Spain please Gareth. I dont think we can play Alli, Lingard and Sterling all too attacking, we need someone alongside Henderson who wont bomb forward as soon as our defence get the ball back.

Just minor changes like that needed.

I'd also have Henderson captain over Kane but that doesnt really matter too much.

[Baptista_8]

It's England...don't we always wait too long to make subs?

[Astafjevs]

I don't think the back three is something that should continue tbh. I know I'm going to get 'but who we played doesn't matter!!!!11' nonsense, but unfortunately you do have to look at it. And the back three barely worked against that lot, let alone the first half-decent pseudo top tier nation England faced.

I think it suits a very select group of the squad. So some look like top players in it, and others look rubbish.

[westy8chimp]

2 hours ago, Astafjevs said:

I don't think the back three is something that should continue tbh. I know I'm going to get 'but who we played doesn't matter!!!!11' nonsense, but unfortunately you do have to look at it. And the back three barely worked against that lot, let alone the first half-decent pseudo top tier nation England faced.

I think it suits a very select group of the squad. So some look like top players in it, and others look rubbish.

The back 3 didnt work because of the way we used the front 3/4. Having a back 3 allows you to use your fullbacks aggressively (as wing back) meaning you dont need wingers. So you should have a midfield trio (the outer midfielder always being able to cover the wing back as he advances) the centre of the three midfielders should be a playmaker of some sort... And there should always be 2 central strikers. 

In terms of translating this to england...trippier and young (who should be rose) should have been more attacking more frequently... We should have had henderson and dier in cm... Where one always covering the most advanced full back... I. E. Rose attacks down left so dier slots in leaving other 2 cms, 2 strikers and opposite wb in advance or support of the ball carrier.... And if it's trippier then henderson would cover and same applies. 

The third midfielder could either be shelvey... Wilshere... Rlc... As a playmaker... Or alli/sterling/lingard as an AM. 

If we had chosen a playmaker id have alli playin his spurs role as a shadown striker/roaming am... And kane as focul point of attack always threatening the box. 

If we went with attacking mid instead of a playmaker id have chosen another hard workin striker (vardy/welbz) to partner kane. 

So the back 3 would have worked

Otherwise stick with the attack we had but play 4231/4123 to give us another body in midfield instead of defence. 

We played a hybrid of the two and it didnt work in attack or defense

[westy8chimp]

Tl:dr... What im getting at is if you play 5 defenders you either play direct (so whilst good players, for the system, lingard and sterling may not have been the right personnel... And kane dropping so deep not the right strategy)... Or you need to use a playmaker who can keep possession and allow more time for deep players to advance in transition. 

I. E. Modric or rakitic were always within a few yards of the ball carrier and they got the ball to the wing backs high up the field. They always then had mandzukic and rebic/or perisic to cross to. 

[Weezer]

He's not wrong tbf. As I said in my own post, for all the bluster about Southgate and his system this England side very quickly reverted to type when they were put under any pressure.

[Baptista_8]

Croatians (particularly Vrsjalko and Modric) doing a lot of talking after the game.

[Gary_Parker]

11 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Croatians (particularly Vrsjalko and Modric) doing a lot of talking after the game.

But nothing they've said isn't accurate. I feel a bit for England, they've done well considering the amount of changes they've made and players they've introduced but how many of the England squad players would be considered the best player at their club? Even the best in their position? The Spurs lads maybe? 

[GG17]

Ward Prowse 😂

[Baptista_8]

13 minutes ago, Gary_Parker said:

But nothing they've said isn't accurate. I feel a bit for England, they've done well considering the amount of changes they've made and players they've introduced but how many of the England squad players would be considered the best player at their club? Even the best in their position? The Spurs lads maybe? 

Yeah but it's hardly the players' faults and the views of some don't exactly represent everyone in our nation.

Only Kane probably in answer to your question, but that's arguably between him and Eriksen.

[m_fenton]

My list. Obviously some are a bit subjective.

 

Best at club:

Pickford at Everton?

Vardy at Leicester?

Kane at Harry Kane FC?

 

Best in position at club:

Keepers: Butland/Pickford/Pope (50:50 with England's 4th choice Heaton).

Centre Backs: Maguire/Stones (50:50 with Otamendi or non-crocked Kompany)/Walker (but as a Full Back)

Full Backs: Young/Trippier/Alexander-Arnold

Midfield: Loftus-Cheek

Forwards: Kane/Vardy/Sterling (admittedly one of a group at similar levels)