Breaking News: Football Manager 2018 Headline Features

[RiverReveal666]

3 hours ago, Woodmansee said:

Taking preorders without any details and now this corny video leads me to believe there are no real improvements this year, the same as the last two years.

Stop wasting money on corny videos and make something useful, IE whats in the product.

After watching the video I pretty much came to the same opinion. With the exception of the corny video comment. Corny videos are deff not the problem with the series  at the moment ...... they certainly didn't waste much money on it.

As a Man Utd fan the current FM era all feels a bit Moyes and Van Gaal.

[themadsheep2001]

9 hours ago, Rashidi said:

TBH the UI overhaul for the tactics screen makes me excited. It should make it easier for people to see how well their tactics have done in the past visually with the analysis feedback. Plus it looks tantalising. Been a subject of these teasers for so long that I know, when SI says "Work in Progress" some of those screens can change between now and November.

The medical centre and the new scouting options have me excited. Dynamics looks awesome and it's success will depend on how integrated it is with tactics and training. FD mode definitely looks promising, though making a judgement based on the two screenshots would be premature.

One change I definitely don't like is the matchday screen, separating the time bar from the commentary is a big change. I liked it the way it was. Overall though it's got me excited.

Agree with this, particularly on the tactics screen. Will have to see how it plays out, but I'd pick up this addition based on any strong improvements there alone. 

[Kaiser_Tottenham]

On 9/29/2017 at 12:54, endtime said:

I'm getting too old for this ****, just give me a bunch of screens to look at instead of having to sit through ~4 minutes of youtube "experts" just to watch 10 seconds of game footage

Lol, I'm a fan of the game since 99-2000 but i admit i felt the same way "too old to watch 4 mins video, just like screen shoots" LoL

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, Spurs_Q8 said:

 "too old to watch 4 mins video, 

Seriously? A game that you'll put hundreds of hours into, and you get impatient at a four minute video on YouTube?

You know the way to avoid this? Buy the game and find out all the new features for yourself. 

[Jibby123]

Looking good.

Not to sound like a Viz tips letter, but there's a limit to what can be introduced on an annual release isn't there? If it's that underwhelming just miss a year or two (or 3) in versions? More likely to notice new features then.

[forameuss]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Seriously? A game that you'll put hundreds of hours into, and you get impatient at a four minute video on YouTube?

You know the way to avoid this? Buy the game and find out all the new features for yourself. 

To be fair, I'd much prefer it if they didn't confine every bit of marketing to an admittedly cringey 4 minute video.  Absolutely no issue with them doing it, and it could've been a lot worse, but there hasn't been much else besides that.  The past couple of versions they've done most of their marketing with not much more than a tertiary mention on their own community forums.  I know the outreach of social media is much larger, and I know that's the way everything is going to go, but I reserve my right to be a complete misanthrope and expect something I can actually read at work rather than my only option being to watch a video.  With no subtitles too, I might add.  Those swines.

[matisptfan]

I understand this topic will be covered in the upcoming videos, but since I'm not sure it has been pointed out before, let me pose the question: what was the reasoning behind changing back to shirts in the tactical screen? It's one of those small things in the headlines video that intrigues me. 

[MoxeysTheName]

As someone who suffers from hearing loss and wears hearing aids, I do think it would be nice and very helpful if future videos were to carry subtitles. There is more of a need for subtitles on portable devices as, even with headphones in, you can only turn the volume up so much.

[kandersson]

17 hours ago, Svenc said:

Also pretty epic. https://twitter.com/dsantana310/status/910234624277741570/video/1 In football (the real one ) it'd the type who would rant about a lack of passion and grit and determination as the root cause of all failings for the English National Football Team since Sir Alf's Wingless Wonders '66.  In the current climate those blokes still find an audience as there is an inherently mistrust (nothing bad about that, a blind belief in purely stats is never a good thing), a desire to keep things as they've always been. And because useful metrics in particular as to football have only entered the arena in more recent times. In a few years from now they will be everbody's laughing stock though and be forced to play Football Manager to stay into a (fictional) spotlight -- where they can still hold onto the good old times and log onto Miles Twitter to flame him with their opinions how the game were broken as their forward should have clearly scored at least 8 out of the 10 one on ones he just had, because that's just his football he's known for fifty years, ya know!

Btw, the game is entirely maths and quants anyhow, so the designer's better go by some analytics, or else they create a complete fantasy. [Ok, that's basically been 3 more posts on that topic of lacking in-game stats/feedback, but this will be my last, promise].

Hi Svenc, agree and disagree at the same time

Advanced stats and metrics will be more and more useful in football, but I don't think they'll ever have the same impact they have in baseball, basketball or american football (seriously why they call that football when the only players that actually kick the ball are the less relevant on the team...) mostly for one reason: it's played with feet. This means football tends to be much less predictable - unlike other sports a lot of the key plays that happen on a football pitch are actually results of individual mistakes - which makes it harder to draw consistent, statistical conclusions. Analytics and metrics have completely reshaped NBA basketball, teams trying to play 'winning' basketball put huge emphasis on three point shooting and tend to push the tempo; as a result post play is now a lost art while mid-range shooting (the 'long 2') is seen as the devil. I doubt we'll ever see something like this happening in football.

Number can also be read from different angles... for example I'm pretty sure that teams that have more total shots tend to be the ones that get more goals (small sample from 2016/17 Bundesliga https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/81/Tournaments/3/Seasons/6392/Stages/13872/TeamStatistics/Germany-Bundesliga-2016-2017 ) so this could somehow support the infamous 'I got Fm'd' theory .

I do agree that stats and analytics should have more relevance in FM as they're basically the tools that we can/must use to understand and interact with the game. I swear when I'm winning 4-0 and my AM comes up with the typical 'seriously overrun in midfield' advice I would fire the guy in the middle of the game!

[Sheriff7]

On 29/9/2017 at 12:21, Neil Brock said:

Speculation about the new features set to be included in Football Manager 2018 has been mounting since the game was announced in August. 

A report has now surfaced on the Football Manager YouTube channel that manages to separate the fake news from the truth with a host of inside information from the Sports Interactive studio.

For the full story and an exclusive first look at some of the features going in to Football Manager 2018 watch the video below.

Football Manager 2018 will be released on November 10th. Subscribe to the Football Manager YouTube channel for more feature information in the lead-up to that date.

 

Milles must also be upgraded this year because in video his eyebrows do not move strangely or make stressful grimaces like every year...

[Svenc]

36 minutes ago, kandersson said:

I do agree that stats and analytics should have more relevance in FM as they're basically the tools that we can/must use to understand and interact with the game. I swear when I'm winning 4-0 and my AM comes up with the typical 'seriously overrun in midfield' advice I would fire the guy in the middle of the game!

Totally agree k! I call him assman for that reason. I don't have a theory as to "getting FM'ed" anymore. I've watched a lot of such pkms and what is happening in almost each of those is that the match stats FM has are dominated to kingdom come without the "dominating" team creating much of any quality chances -- and the game doesn't tell the player. Without complicating, this relates to engine, as well as player input (tactics), as well as AI (tactics). Partly, that may be subjective. Partly, it plain isn't. The screenshots will come either way, take a look at the set piece counts whenever they are displayed. You probably know that meme. Personally I haven't had that in numbers ever since starting out, which is not due to being particularly great, it's simply that I rarely build hugely experimental tactics. I only started to experience some of this when trying out various tactics getting shared, or pkms uploaded by others venting frustration. Thus I also know the difference between the shots my teams tend to create on average, and this. To me, such pkms are almost unwatchable not only due to the shots, in particular if every single attack results into a set piece. That means every time the team goes forward, an opposition player easily gets into a foot in, and either fouls for a free kick, or deflects for a throw-in or corner. Every time!

I too don't think football will have as much advanced stats as less fluids US sports have (Baseball). It's partly the nature of the sports. All what xG metrics do, if you break it down, isn't leaving estimations how "good" a chance really is entirelly down to subjective gut feeling, if you break it down to it. Compared to Baseball, it's probably not even that advanced a stat. It's like in any other area where such halfway decent models are conducted, not only sports, but also economics. They oft outperform  "experts" pretty easily, or help to make decisions, as the human brain has a lot of fallacies and bias, whereas a machine/algorithm doesn't. I think something like that, if possible, would be to a huge benefit -- underneath every shot SI calculate, there is already numbers anyway. THe bare minimum, as always argued, is at least displaying: How many of those 50+ shots are actually created from play and which aren't, and how often a side is running into breaks/dead on counter attacks. How can anybody "trust" much into a stats page without such basics displayed? Dang for adressing me and forcing me into another reply.  

I think generally whilst FM/SI has always taken pride in popularizing stats in general -- this was probably the first mainstream exposure for many of us into some football data -- it's trailing a bit behind now in general imo. However a problem in that may also be accessibility. If there's too much data/clutter, a player may just give up, fold and crumble. In particular if we're not told how to use them. I think a fair share of stats are pretty much telling nothing in isolation in general. If you think about direct free kicks for instance: Firstly, a team at best scores like 5 of them in general over a season. Not only does FM store such data for but a season. It also doesn't display how many attempts were needed for those. So is a team with a lot of goals from free kicks, etc. really that more effective, or is it simply winning more free kicks? Fm doesn't reveal.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Svenc

[herne79]

1 hour ago, MoxeysTheName said:

As someone who suffers from hearing loss and wears hearing aids, I do think it would be nice and very helpful if future videos were to carry subtitles. There is more of a need for subtitles on portable devices as, even with headphones in, you can only turn the volume up so much.

Subtitles should be available already.

If watching via YouTube on PC, hover the cursor over the video when playing and you should see an icon in the bottom right corner of the screen (looks like a little white box with a red underline) labelled "Subtitles / Closed Captions".  Click on it.

If watching on a phone (Android, can't comment on Apple), pause the video and top right you should see 3 dots, one above the other.  Tap them and there should be an option that pops up for Captions, then choose your language.

[MoxeysTheName]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Subtitles should be available already.

If watching via YouTube on PC, hover the cursor over the video when playing and you should see an icon in the bottom right corner of the screen (looks like a little white box with a red underline) labelled "Subtitles / Closed Captions".  Click on it.

If watching on a phone (Android, can't comment on Apple), pause the video and top right you should see 3 dots, one above the other.  Tap them and there should be an option that pops up for Captions, then choose your language.

That's good to know, thanks.

[dogs]

personally dont think the new features justify a new game release and i have bought FM since the old cm93 days, I suppose its hard to constantly polish a product, what we really are paying for here in my opinion is a new skin new database tweaked ME and some features

[Jason the Yank]

8 hours ago, kandersson said:

American football (seriously why they call that football when the only players that actually kick the ball are the less relevant on the team...)

Because it originated when two teams couldn't agree on whether to play with FA rules or rugby rules, so they agreed to a hybrid. And it took off from there (there's actually still a "free kick" rule in the NFL rulebook).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1869_college_football_season

There's also Canadian football, which is similar to American football but on a longer field and with 12 men instead of 11. The CFL actually developed out of rugby organizations.

 

 

[Scoham]

3 hours ago, dogs said:

personally dont think the new features justify a new game release and i have bought FM since the old cm93 days, I suppose its hard to constantly polish a product, what we really are paying for here in my opinion is a new skin new database tweaked ME and some features

What sort of features would justify a new game?

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, Scoham said:

What sort of features would justify a new game?

Ones that are specifically tailored to him, obviously 

[Tony Wright 747]

49 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Ones that are specifically tailored to him, obviously 

Everyone has their own opinion Dave and have the right to express them on these forums, however I believe that it is somewhat impossible to judge from what we have seen so far and that the devil will be in the detail when further videos are released.

[streety]

its interesting seeing the screens..im excited by the scouting screen, One thought once you select your package is that for the season or can you change it through out the season..

[mbabbs]

There are some exciting prospects - I'm intrigued by the 'AI Overhaul'. Hopefully that means the AI will be better at constructing squads and backroom and not just on the pitch. The new stadium work is interesting - will we finally have stadiums that mimic  real world club stadiums? New player roles and tactical options sound good too. Looking forward to more details.........

Edited October 1, 2017 by mbabbs

[davehanson]

Where can we find any information on new features? That video doesn't give enough information.

 

Miles said that all new features would be announced by late September. We have one week for the pre-order discount and as yet nothing has been announced.

[beardymouse]

2 minutes ago, davehanson said:

We have one week for the pre-order discount and as yet nothing has been announced.

Apart from the things that have...

[davehanson]

I know there will be 'dynamics' whatever the hell that means. What else do we know?

[beardymouse]

8 minutes ago, davehanson said:

I know there will be 'dynamics' whatever the hell that means. What else do we know?

From the video and Miles' Twitter, as well as dynamics there are:

- New tactical options and improvements
- New player roles
- Overhauled AI
- New graphics engine and motion capture
- Stadium design
- Revamped scouting 
- Data analysts and Sports scientists actually doing something
- More analytical tools
- Medical centre
- Transfer and contract clauses
- Changes to Fantasy Draft
 

And in-depth videos going into these will be out in the next month. 

[davehanson]

So, all the in depth things that tell us exactly what SI are going to do will be done AFTER the pre-order offer finishes?

How has the AI been overhauled - what have they done it make it better?

What exactly are the new player roles?

How has scouting been revamped?

 

See my point?

Been looking back, FM13 the video blogs started at the beginning of September to give us an idea of exactly what was being implemented in the game. The last few years have given us little to no information before whatever off they have come up with is over.

[beardymouse]

10 minutes ago, davehanson said:

So, all the in depth things that tell us exactly what SI are going to do will be done AFTER the pre-order offer finishes?

How has the AI been overhauled - what have they done it make it better?

What exactly are the new player roles?

How has scouting been revamped?

 

See my point?

Not really. They never promised that they'd give us any depth before the pre-order offer finishes. This is what Miles actually said:

On 15/08/2017 at 15:11, Miles Jacobson said:

By the time the promotion ends, the key new features will already have been trailed (those are due to be announced late September as Brocky mentions above) and we may have even released 1 or 2 full feature videos by then – can’t confirm the latter yet, as we don’t yet know what dates those will be released, or even how many feature videos we’re doing in total as yet. But you’ll have the headline feature news already, so all good!

And here we are - more than a week before the discount ends - with all the headline feature news.

I mean, you'll have all the detail you want before the game is released in six weeks time. You have a decent idea of what they've worked on for FM18 and what the new features will be. If you want more detail you can wait for the feature videos and hope they're out before the discount ends (a discount that they don't need to offer in the first place I might add). 

10 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Been looking back, FM13 the video blogs started at the beginning of September to give us an idea of exactly what was being implemented in the game. The last few years have given us little to no information before whatever off they have come up with is over.

They didn't have the discount until last year did they? So I'm struggling to see how you've been disadvantaged.

Edited October 1, 2017 by beardymouse

[Viking]

Well, I am pre-ordering tomorrow. I mean, who am I kidding? I've bought every singe copy of this game since... like Championship Manager 1862. Sexy new features or not, I'll put some 3000 hours into FM 18 too.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Viking

[Scoham]

1 hour ago, davehanson said:

Where can we find any information on new features? That video doesn't give enough information.

 

Miles said that all new features would be announced by late September. We have one week for the pre-order discount and as yet nothing has been announced.

He never said all new features would be announced by late September. In fact I'm sure that has never been the case for any version - there are always unannounced features left for people to find themselves.

[davehanson]

2 hours ago, beardymouse said:

They didn't have the discount until last year did they? So I'm struggling to see how you've been disadvantaged.

Never said we had been disadvantaged. My view is that the game is developing less and less each year. They give people an incentive to buy the game before they really know what they are buying.

 

Let me be clear, I am not complaining about the discount. It is brilliant. And I will buy the game, more than likely. I have bought and played every single version since the first Champ Manager on the Amiga. I have played FM17 for over 1500 hours. What I don't like is the way SI now go about 'selling' their game. Other companies release lots of trailers and footage of the game before release so the public can see the differences. I just don't feel, and I don't think SI feel, there are enough differences to do this.

[gavo01]

Funny how different people want different things from this next release.

I just want an upgrade on international management and a return to decent regen faces and I'll be the first in the queue come release date.

[CameronAshworth1981]

Wish we could step away from these "Youtube personalities" when it comes to promoting games FFS.

The majority of them are self entitled idiots from my limited experience.

[pukfm]

I want to pre-order and use the "Contract Extension" - but I need MORE INFORMATION about FM18 from SI !! 

The "Contract Extension" deadline is 9th october - and my questions is; will there be any new information about the game before the deadline ???

Thanks.

[mrdanbartlett]

Seriously folk, I'm SURE you can get it for 20 or 25% off from somewhere after the official deal runs out, I've never paid full price for a FM and always had access to the betas etc.

 

 

[mj_1985]

5 hours ago, beardymouse said:

Not really. They never promised that they'd give us any depth before the pre-order offer finishes. This is what Miles actually said:

And here we are - more than a week before the discount ends - with all the headline feature news.

I mean, you'll have all the detail you want before the game is released in six weeks time. You have a decent idea of what they've worked on for FM18 and what the new features will be. If you want more detail you can wait for the feature videos and hope they're out before the discount ends (a discount that they don't need to offer in the first place I might add). 

They didn't have the discount until last year did they? So I'm struggling to see how you've been disadvantaged.

Sorry beardymouse but I'm with Davehanson on this, I don't know if disadvantaged is how I'd put it but the way they announce now and the pre order deal thing makes me and others feel like I want to pre order the game now whilst I'm getting some money off. However I dont feel as though I have all the information to make an informed decision yet. I can of course wait but I'll have to pay more for that. SI knows that some people may not order the game if they feel the new features aren't up to much, so instead they offer a pre order incentive without too much information to almost try and tip the balance for some of those undecided. It makes people feel as though they should make a decision now before the offer expires. Don't get me wrong, nobody is putting a gun to my head and it's only a saving of a few quid but people will see it like that. I think it's mildly exploitative at most, but tbf not much different to what a lot of other developers are doing these days.

In terms of the features I'm disappointed not to see any expansion to online play, would love to see that, but I'm hoping for a few more videos before the deadline of key new features such as dynamics, because as it stands as someone who has played since cm2 I've become frustrated with the lack of real innovation in the last few years and I'm not so sure I'm ready to buy it just yet.

[grade]

I for a long time decided not to pre-order any games, due to how the gaming industry is treating gamers in general terms, with their half finish games (to be fair, this not a rant, but look how many games had so much problems on release, not to mention the exclusives stuff with DLC and Season Passes). We gamers end up paying more for gamers then a couple of years ago.

I was undecided if I pre-order FM18 this year, as it goes against this decision not to pre-order games. After seeing this video, I'm yet to be convinced.

I will wait for further videos, even if it means i loose the opportunity to get a discount.

Probably not going to get the discount anyway since FM Editor related news is normally the last bits of features to be announced and normally is about by the game is release. I will wait for them for a decision.

[mibsweden]

Looks quite interesting. Especially the scouting and team dynamics. I have always put a lot of emphasis on team dynamics - making sure players are of similar personalities etc.

[ChelseaFan]

I've already pre-ordered as I was always going to anyway.

Not a fan about how they're releasing the new features though. Just let us know already. I want to see examples of the new engine and how it plays out, I want a Q&A with a lead developer about the new features.

 

 

[Per Annum]

Seeing miles Tweet the anagram answers just affirms how poorly executed a poor idea it was. Total non event. 

 

Interesting the range of opinions, I actually think based in the info available there might actually be more changes to this fm than there has been in a while, yet the pr has been worse than ever. 

Agree re you tubers, they can get tae

[ChelseaFan]

16 hours ago, CameronAshworth1981 said:

Wish we could step away from these "Youtube personalities" when it comes to promoting games FFS.

The majority of them are self entitled idiots from my limited experience.

Indeed.

Get a real ****ing job.

[forameuss]

While some of them are absolute prize dobbers with ideas above their station, the decent ones are earning a living doing something they love.  I mean, how dare they do that?

Good on them.

[CFuller]

@ChelseaFan I think you will find that most prominent FM YouTubers have 9-5 jobs - WorkTheSpace, for one. That being said, I am subscribed to three full-time FM/FIFA YouTubers who have significant personal reasons why they cannot do what you would call a real job.

To go back on topic, I’ve decided to wait until the end of the week before deciding whether I’ll pre-order or not. I’m confident that there’ll be at least one feature video out by then. Personally, I prefer seeing multiple in-depth videos spread out over weeks, rather than just one 30-minute piece that hits you with all the big new features at once but perhaps doesn’t go into as much detail.

[ChelseaFan]

9 minutes ago, forameuss said:

While some of them are absolute prize dobbers with ideas above their station, the decent ones are earning a living doing something they love.  I mean, how dare they do that?

Good on them.

It's more the fact that they believe their celebrities and should be treated like one.

They put on fake personas because they're entirely unlikable IRL.

Some are great, don't get me wrong, but in my experience, the majority are shallow and untalented.

 

[Crispypaul]

There's a new longer features video up isn't there?

[bruntonpasty]

16 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

There's a new longer features video up isn't there?

Nothing from @Miles Jacobson on Twitter today - that's were I expect  news of new promo material will first appear.

[Crispypaul]

7 minutes ago, bruntonpasty said:

Nothing from @Miles Jacobson on Twitter today - that's were I expect  news of new promo material will first appear.

My fault - I saw something in the Twitter feed on the front page but its some random guy talking about the last video

[Spurs08]

4 hours ago, ChelseaFan said:

It's more the fact that they believe their celebrities and should be treated like one.

They put on fake personas because they're entirely unlikable IRL.

Some are great, don't get me wrong, but in my experience, the majority are shallow and untalented.

 

Or because that's what their audience enjoys watching and it attracts views. You don't have to enjoy it yourself, but don't **** on other people who are just making a living.

[BrianMunich]

Struggling to take this seriously.

What on earth is wrong with Miles just talking us through the new features of the game? Why do we need to watch and listen to a whole load of people who have no idea, and have had no real influence upon what the new features are. 

Show your audience some greater respect. We are watching this content to see what the new features are? That's what we are watching 4mins of video for. Spending more of that time talking over the features, instead of forcing us to take part in some cliched marketing gimmick would be far more virtuous of your efforts. We're here to listen to Miles talk about the game, not watch some Youtube 'personality' further gratify their self-importance by conducting your own marketing. 

You'll get countless hours of gameplay from your audience, and we have to put up with this. God help us with the serious stuff... 

Edited October 3, 2017 by BrianMunich

[vikeologist]

4 minutes ago, BrianMunich said:

Struggling to take this seriously.

What on earth is wrong with Miles just talking us through the new features of the game? Why do we need to watch and listen to a whole load of people who have no idea, and have had no real influence upon what the new features are. 

Show your audience some greater respect. We are watching this content to see what the new features are? That's what we are watching 4mins of video for. Spending more of that time talking over the features, instead of forcing us to take part in some cliched marketing gimmick would be far more virtuous of your efforts. We're here to listen to Miles talk about the game, not watch some Youtube 'personality' further gratify their self-importance by conducting your own marketing. 

You'll get countless hours of gameplay from your audience, and we have to put up with this. God help us with the serious stuff... 

The video was annoying; pathetic in fact, but really all it proves is that as amusing video creators, they make good game creators. If they paid someone external to come in and create it for them, that would be worrying from a judgement point of view, but as it appeared to be the work of an intern who'd be given 2 minutes and £2 to produce the video, let's assume that's what it was. 

This is the way they go about marketing; keep people in suspense, release very little in the way of hard info, and do things that create maximum attention while giving minimum hard facts. Yes, it's annoying, but it's the way they roll, and it doesn't actually affect the game. 

Bear in mind, it's not bad for them to annoy us all with their marketing, as long as we're paying attention. Treat us mean, keep us keen.

[Dagenham_Dave]

3 hours ago, BrianMunich said:

Why do we need to watch and listen to a whole load of people who have no idea, and have had no real influence upon what the new features are. 

 

Sorry, I didn't realise you were forced to watch a YouTube video. 

This is pretty much the only gaming forum I post on. Is it like this on other 'franchise' forums? Do others foam at the mouth about new features for games where you pretty much know already what it's going to be like and will buy it anyway?  From what I've seen, this year's FIFA is almost exactly the same game as last year with a different colour scheme. Was there widespread gnashing of teeth in the run up to that game? Or is it just FM players who have this overbearing sense of entitlement? I'm genuinely curious here. 

[Guest]

The whole concept of an online community is that people within that community are free to express their opinions, they will feel personally attached to the core element of the community, probably more so than those who are outside of the community & as a consequence a sense of entitlement will be created with some taking that entitlement to a more extreme representation than others.