Will you be buying FM23 ?

[Nicenoise]

Great effort making the last patch after full release cycle. Nice to see that you can do a little bit more if it is about politics. Will not buy, thanks.

[Wizard boy]

Has anyone got this via gamepass and if so can you still update it with the 3rd party packs like kits & logos? 

[Yuko]

Most likely no. 

If the UI remains unchanged, definite no. 

If I see some effort to revamp the game I'll probably support it. 

[Wizard boy]

18 hours ago, Yuko said:

Most likely no. 

If the UI remains unchanged, definite no. 

If I see some effort to revamp the game I'll probably support it. 

I got gamepass for £1 for 3 month so I downloaded fm22. I loaded the some logos and kits on. A shame there isn’t an update for promotions & relegations. 

[FM1000]

On 03/06/2022 at 01:31, Xavier Lukhas said:

The way I see it, it wouldn't make dual cores unsupported: it would just offer the ability for basically every other CPU to stretch its legs. The only negative is that it's potentially very hard since FM hasn't fundamentally changed in almost two decades in the way it processes gameplay. A lot of other things have changed, but FM22 runs about the same as FM12. Technically FM22 can stretch its legs a bit on higher core count CPUs if you wall it with leagues (as evidenced in the benchmarking thread), but it's not a whole lot of distinction for not a whole lot of difference.

EDIT: Deep inside, I do think that FM should be rewritten from scratch because of many reasons that are not worth opening the can of worm for. I don't believe it's going to happen anytime soon though; I'd be happy if it could at least run decently well on modern hardware though.

Rewrite of that magnitude requires years of work, so I doubt SI will go in that direction.

But it's not their fault its our fault, as long as the fans are paying 60 euros every year for basically a database upgrade and minor ME improvements but also ME bugs their strategy will not change...

The biggest asset of the game is the database, which is great for a video game and the ME which is very subpar for a video game in 2022.....bad animations, and bad simulation of football, players all play like they are the same and the decision making of the players is baffaling.

[Garethjohn79]

Only after the final update as I used to. Preferably once the 22-23 football season is over and it's on sale.

This edition has been particularly disappointing as the leagues are not correct and it's not obscure foreign leagues this is two UK leagues, Cymru North and Northern Ireland Championship.

It seems bizarre that when the game is released at full price you are taking on the responsibility to spot and track faults and are then waiting for update after update  restarting a save each time. You finally get a finished product that allows you to get stuck into a full long term save about 8 months later which is either the same price or on sale.

[Overmars]

I hope not. I caved a couple of months ago and bought FM22, then proceeded to sink many hours into a Dutch/German save. While it was fun at times, in the end I just ended up frustrated by the game-ishness of it all.

The way player form overly influences everything was the biggest thing that bugged me. You can have the most talented player on the team, but if he had a few bad matches in a row then he simply cannot be played. That's not how real life works. Mo Salah can go three games without scoring in real life but then still be able to score a penalty or shoot without hitting the woodwork. In this game, he becomes half the player he was until he somehow scores a wide open goal to break the drought. I had a world class left back (best talent in the world) who played the first 20 matches of a season below a 6.5 average rating. No amount of warning him or fining him for bad performances could shake him out of the rut. That's just how form in the game goes. You get strikers who will score 15 times in 8 matches, and you'll feel like a genius, but it never feels right either. I just want more game to game variance -- not snowballs of player form that build into avalanches of great or terrible performances. It would feel much more natural that way.

And don't even get me started on team form and how it manifests itself with opposing goalkeeper performances and other random events that stop being random when form is involved.

[Steve8066]

Unless they re-add the match day widgets then this will be the 3rd year in a row that i wont be buying it. This might not seem much to some, but i play/watch full 90 minute games and constantly make changes on the fly and wigdets are the integral part of this. The negative of not having these overrides any positives that the game has in other areas.

[vikeologist]

For me the issue is whether I'm going to buy FM24.

For me, FM22 has been a problem. I've played FM/CM since CM97, and I think this is one of 2 editions that have had this level of problems / bugs. In fact I'd say that the release edition of FM23 (as in after the beta) needs to be less bug rideen than the 'final' version of FM22. I've reported lots of bugs, and I'd say less than half have been fixed. Obviously there is an extent where SI say, 'the game is supposed to be like this' and we disagree about whether it's a bug or a feature, but nonetheless, still less than half, I think. 

But look, there's always going to be a degree of having to accept / work around flaws. As long as this poopshow isn't repeated for FM23, I'll forget about all the problems much as I have the previous time. I'll be buying FM23, and if there's no significant new features, I can just take the view that I hope they've fixed all the problems of last year (which IIRC was exactly what happened the previous time SI released an edition this broken).

The problem of course is that SI give it the spin that FM22 doesn't have that many problems statistically or whatever. I understand that they have to claim that.  But if SI sincerely think this game was up to their normal standard, that would make me extremely worried.

#FoolMeOnce

(Obviously there are some areas where FM22 was an improvement on previous versions, but they're outweighed). 

 

[Garethjohn79]

Are there any other products where you pay a premium for a  brand new inferior version than the more complete on sale one eight months later? 

 

 

[av3ry]

FIFA?

[ChrisWilson]

I skipped fm22 for the first time since like 2008 .. just didn't have enough for me and I really dislike the new transfer value system. Every transfer site there is has a set value not a range..  so yes buying fm23 either way

[Garethjohn79]

On 07/06/2022 at 16:43, av3ry said:

FIFA?

Does FIFA need restarting to install into a save after each update meaning you can't settle down to the full game for five months after buying it brand new?

[av3ry]

58 minutes ago, Garethjohn79 said:

Does FIFA need restarting to install into a save after each update meaning you can't settle down to the full game for five months after buying it brand new?

No, but it does have that ridiculously unrealistic mode where a random striker in the Championship is like Maradona and Messi rtolled into one.

Also, I am on the same save as when I bought it in November. The thing to do with Football Manager is to buy it every two to three years or two versions every five years so for example I'll probably be going FM19, FM22, FM24. Then after 24 either 26 or 27.

[benefactor_r]

I will probably buy FM23.

I have deliberately skipped FM22, for the first time since CM3, and I made a decision to buy this game every 2 years, hoping that there might be some more noticeable changes in it. I became sick for paying the full price for what, ultimately, became a DLC with a new database.

[LaticsLegend]

I'll wait for the reviews and after the final patch to see if there are still any unresolved issues.  I resisted FM22 due to time constraints and after watching some YouTube RTG.  

[anagain]

On 10/06/2022 at 13:16, Garethjohn79 said:

Does FIFA need restarting to install into a save after each update meaning you can't settle down to the full game for five months after buying it brand new?

That's just an opinion, not a fact.

As is;

On 07/06/2022 at 16:41, Garethjohn79 said:

Are there any other products where you pay a premium for a  brand new inferior version than the more complete on sale one eight months later?

I've been playing FM22 since release in the same save. Still enjoying it.

[dogs]

2012 for me was sweet spot between a game that remembers it was a game and a simulation, worst for me was 2019.   Every year i moan about non complete versions being sold to appease software houses every year i still end up buying it.. for all i don't think FM22 is great i have still sunk 450hours into it...  i will still probably buy fm23 and moan again

[redders1977]

Yes, on Pre-order. It's almost worth it to me just for the data update alone.

 

[Butters76]

Same procedure as last year, same procedure as every year.
Pre-order as soon as it shows up on steam.
Been hooked on this series since CM 93.

[psucolonel]

I am sure I will purchase it, but I am really enjoying this version I must say.

[hm86]

On 18/06/2022 at 20:17, redders1977 said:

Yes, on Pre-order. It's almost worth it to me just for the data update alone.

 

This for me! Have done every year since CM in the mid 90s. I play it far more than any other game on PC or Xbox. Well worth it for me.

[trevjim]

I always say I won't but always cave eventually. I do get more and more fed up each year though. The series does seem to be regressing.

 

The ME has the same issues as always. It's just spam wide play. No point in other Tactics.

 

Player and press intersections for me were the beginning of the downfall. They were added for immersion but actually end up detracting from it because they are so tedious, non sensical, time consuming and repetitive.

 

Visually it's awful. There are mobile games that look better.

 

AI squad building is as bad as ever. Still get teams spend 40m on a player then play him 3 times in 4 years and let him go. Not to mention ridiculously low AI bids for your players.

 

 

 

Facilities need an overhaul instead of the incremental upgrade system currently in place.

 

 

 

My worry for 23 is that because they are adding the woman's leagues in (I support this addition but have no interest in it) there won't be any major updates to the rest of the game 

[Delvi]

Il 3/5/2022 in 09:21 , bsanchezb ha scritto:

UEFA has published a decision about participation of Russian clubs in 2022/23 season : https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/mediaservices/mediareleases/news/0275-150c9887cacb-882c686f407f-1000--uefa-decisions-for-upcoming-competitions-relating-to-the-ongoin/

 

Does it mean that FM 2023 will reflect the decision accordingly and will only ban Russian teams for one season or will continue banning them indefinitely?

The ban could be extended, but it should be done in a random manner and not hard-coded, similarly as it was done for Brexit case.

I agree...and it should be possible to edit it, as it was done for Brexit. The same for national team and for Ukrainian leagues, player should be allowed to play with set up he wish. it's a game, it's not a representation of what will be in 5 years and it shouldn't be intended in this way.

[Wizard boy]

On 26/06/2022 at 21:57, trevjim said:

I always say I won't but always cave eventually. I do get more and more fed up each year though. The series does seem to be regressing.

 

The ME has the same issues as always. It's just spam wide play. No point in other Tactics.

 

Player and press intersections for me were the beginning of the downfall. They were added for immersion but actually end up detracting from it because they are so tedious, non sensical, time consuming and repetitive.

 

Visually it's awful. There are mobile games that look better.

 

AI squad building is as bad as ever. Still get teams spend 40m on a player then play him 3 times in 4 years and let him go. Not to mention ridiculously low AI bids for your players.

 

 

 

Facilities need an overhaul instead of the incremental upgrade system currently in place.

 

 

 

My worry for 23 is that because they are adding the woman's leagues in (I support this addition but have no interest in it) there won't be any major updates to the rest of the game 

I wouldn’t say it’s visually awful. The media side does need a complete overhaul. Communication between Player and manager certainly does. We need more varied answers because the ones we’re left with usually just leads to conflict or the player wanting to leave. If players spoke to managers like they can in this game then they’d be either playing in the reserves for the next year or gone. I don’t expect much to change though in 23. What would be great is if they add audio commentary. I’ve got it on fm22 with Peter drury and it’s a game changer for me. I can’t imagine playing fm without it to be honest. 

[Milkmanhole]

I only played FM 22 via the Game Pass, and it turns out that the major change I personally felt was only the deadline day stuff compared to FM 21.

I'll probably start subscribing to Game Pass again if I really do want FM 23 and if it does end up there, otherwise, if there aren't that many added features / UI changes, I won't be in too much of a hurry to buy 23.

[talhak]

On 26/06/2022 at 23:57, trevjim said:

My worry for 23 is that because they are adding the woman's leagues in (I support this addition but have no interest in it) there won't be any major updates to the rest of the game 

We do not know when the women's football will be introduced into FM. I personally doubt it'll be this year as it has been always mentioned as a "multi-year project".

[Nonlondoner]

Rather hoping the Women's game does arrive with FM23, it's become such a big part of supporting my team that it's starting to feel odd without the English WSL.  I got the feeling it had already been a project for a while before it was announced last summer, but that also doesn't mean it will be this year, obviously. 

[Internomad]

Like many others here I have played Football Manager right back to Champ Man on my Amiga 1200.  I have bought every copy since and will continue to do so till my dying day or until my eyesight gets so bad I can not play games on a PC any more.

[samuelawachie]

@Nonlondoner @Internomad

Have you guys really played all the editions from the start (or more specifically, from FM 07)?

How would you compare these last two versions of the game with the earlier days? Especially with FM 12 through FM14 with these last two...

Edited July 27, 2022 by samuelawachie

[davehanson]

On 18/06/2022 at 14:56, anagain said:

That's just an opinion, not a fact.

Not my comment that you were replying to, but it isn't an opinion at all. SI specifically state that you need to start a new game to see some of the improvements they have made with certain patches or to see some of the bugs fixed. 

The opinion is yours in that the game is fully playable and enjoyable from day 1 all the way through. As it is someones else's opinion that it isn't. But, that wasn't the original point - the point was that to see some of these bug fixes and improvements a new game must be started - and as I said - that is a fact.

 

And, no I won't be buying FM23 at release. Like others here, I have played CM since day 1 on the Amiga. This year with FM22 was the first time I waited until Christmas to buy. And, to be honest, it has been a disappointment in many areas. This year I will wait until after Christmas and decide then. 

[anagain]

2 hours ago, davehanson said:

Not my comment that you were replying to, but it isn't an opinion at all. SI specifically state that you need to start a new game to see some of the improvements they have made with certain patches or to see some of the bugs fixed. 

The opinion is yours in that the game is fully playable and enjoyable from day 1 all the way through. As it is someones else's opinion that it isn't. But, that wasn't the original point - the point was that to see some of these bug fixes and improvements a new game must be started - and as I said - that is a fact.

 

And, no I won't be buying FM23 at release. Like others here, I have played CM since day 1 on the Amiga. This year with FM22 was the first time I waited until Christmas to buy. And, to be honest, it has been a disappointment in many areas. This year I will wait until after Christmas and decide then. 

I love that so many people that go on to overly criticise FM feel the need to point out how they've played FM since it was on the Amiga. Does that make grumbles more effective? 

[Powermonger]

2 hours ago, anagain said:

I love that so many people that go on to overly criticise FM feel the need to point out how they've played FM since it was on the Amiga. Does that make grumbles more effective? 

Amateurs, I've been playing FM since it was on the VIC20.

[the_hdk]

FM22 failed to fix its problems and bugs....and is quite honestly a much worse game than FM21. Unless I see anything that will show improvement this will be the first game I will not buy since FM07.

[sthptngomad76]

Not unless there's an actual attempt  within the ME of making me think about creating tactics that are suited to my team's strength and weaknesses/skill level in order to succeed, as well as squad build properly later in the game.

All you need to do now is download whatever supertactic that exploits the latest ME meta, and stick it into any team in the game. Instant success. And then just hoover up whatever talent comes through South America while the AI clings to thirtysomethings.

The series has always suffered somewhat from this, however it's 2022 and there's no serious contender= no attempt to rectify. Yet everyone has to create silly rules (the old "don't use downloaded tactics and just wait until you tweak your own tactic and find/avoid the gengenpress meta", no transfers, no players from outside country X, entire teams starting with the same surname letter...) in an effort to compensate for the frankly primitive AI.

I was doing the same thing in CM93-94, and I can at least have an explanation for that- it was 1993.

Edited July 28, 2022 by sthptngomad76

[anagain]

5 minutes ago, sthptngomad76 said:

Not unless there's an actual attempt  within the ME of making me think about creating tactics that are suited to my team's strength and weaknesses/skill level in order to succeed.

All you need to do now is download whatever supertactic that exploits the latest ME meta, and stick it into any team in the game. Instant success. The series has always suffered somewhat from this, however it's 2022 and there's no serious contender= no attempt to rectify. Yet everyone has to create silly rules (no transfers, no players from outside country X, entire teams starting with the same surname letter...) in an effort to compensate for the frankly primitive AI. I was doing the same thing in CM93-94, and I can at least have an explanation for that- it was 1993.

Well...

How about you don't download the latest super tactic and use it to exploit the game and make it too easy?

The game's not hard, I agree, but I think you need to understand AI and difficulty in games first.

Many games, think Civ, create artificial difficulties to help the AI. These don't truly make the AI better, they just give it advantages that make the beating of the AI by the player easier.

Other games, think Dark Souls, will give enemies insane health bonuses to make them harder. That's not all but it's part of it. 

There's little FM can do to boost the diffulty of the game in these ways. 

The problem however is that boosting the AI to a level at which it can compete with us is not simpler. I am in no way an expert on this but I do know its a subject that has come up before and I looked into aswell as read stuff by others here.

AI will generally be improved by writing more code but for every little bit of code you add you make the game more demanding.

Is giving yourself caveats such a bad thing anyway?

I've been playing the game to Llama rules for years. It still gets easy but I hardly see it as a negative to stop myself doing such things as using player search or downloading tactics. 

For what it's worth I really do wish the game was harder. I've become very disappointed with the AI squad building this year. The AI relies way too much on old stars rather than buying youngsters.

AI will improve with time, and computing power, but we have to be realistic. 

 

[sthptngomad76]

20 minutes ago, anagain said:

Well...

How about you don't download the latest super tactic and use it to exploit the game and make it too easy?

The game's not hard, I agree, but I think you need to understand AI and difficulty in games first.

Many games, think Civ, create artificial difficulties to help the AI. These don't truly make the AI better, they just give it advantages that make the beating of the AI by the player easier.

Other games, think Dark Souls, will give enemies insane health bonuses to make them harder. That's not all but it's part of it. 

There's little FM can do to boost the diffulty of the game in these ways. 

The problem however is that boosting the AI to a level at which it can compete with us is not simpler. I am in no way an expert on this but I do know its a subject that has come up before and I looked into aswell as read stuff by others here.

AI will generally be improved by writing more code but for every little bit of code you add you make the game more demanding.

Is giving yourself caveats such a bad thing anyway?

I've been playing the game to Llama rules for years. It still gets easy but I hardly see it as a negative to stop myself doing such things as using player search or downloading tactics. 

For what it's worth I really do wish the game was harder. I've become very disappointed with the AI squad building this year. The AI relies way too much on old stars rather than buying youngsters.

AI will improve with time, and computing power, but we have to be realistic. 

 

Honestly, I'll just really be happy with the same tactic not working for every team in the game. To give me a reason not to play 4231 Gegenpress with my Moldovan 2nd Division side and to win the league despite having a vastly weaker team skill wise. Forcing me to play with a physical, longball tactic at that level because the skill level is not there, pitches will be poorer, my squad have lower fitness than an elite European side. 

I can understand that other games do artificially buff the AI to create some semblance of a competitive game- but I'd take that atm whilst a truly intelligent AI gets developed- at least it would get me coming back, even if it's just an optional 'deity' setting.

The avoiding downloaded tactics I have tried- but inevitably, it's a tweaking process until you ultimately just replicate whatever tactic is popular on Steam

I do agree, AI squad building really needs to be built- it has been an ongoing issue for some time

Edited July 28, 2022 by sthptngomad76

[Brother Ben]

20 hours ago, Internomad said:

Like many others here I have played Football Manager right back to Champ Man on my Amiga 1200.  I have bought every copy since and will continue to do so till my dying day or until my eyesight gets so bad I can not play games on a PC any more.

Show off    

I had to make do with a 500+

Edited July 28, 2022 by Brother Ben

[Powermonger]

3 hours ago, Brother Ben said:

Show off    

I had to make do with a 500+

Only real gamers had Amiga 500s, everything above that were just for the posers 

[davehanson]

12 hours ago, anagain said:

I love that so many people that go on to overly criticise FM feel the need to point out how they've played FM since it was on the Amiga. Does that make grumbles more effective? 

How did I overly criticise the game?? 
 

No, it doesn’t give any ‘grumbles’ any more credit. It doesn’t matter if you have played the last 2 versions or the last 22, if you have a legitimate concern about the game then it is as valid as anyone else’s.

 

However, the topic is whether you will buy FM23. So, as I did, to give some back story of your previous buying habits of the game, as I did, is useful information to give.

[Garethjohn79]

On 18/06/2022 at 14:56, anagain said:

That's just an opinion, not a fact.

As is;

I've been playing FM22 since release in the same save. Still enjoying it.

But if you buy it at release and then it updates you need to start again for them to feature in your game, you aren't playing the finished version until March, by which time it's not far off a sale in the summer. Why pay full price for an unfinished product?

[bartdude]

Without hesitation. It's a silly question. The moaners will always moan and the dinosaurs will continue to play old editions, swearing blind they're the best but there's NOTHING out there that's remotely competitive to FM and it evolves with each new edition. This is not even a debate, it's just an excuse to bit*h.

Edited July 28, 2022 by bartdude

[anagain]

6 hours ago, Garethjohn79 said:

But if you buy it at release and then it updates you need to start again for them to feature in your game, you aren't playing the finished version until March, by which time it's not far off a sale in the summer. Why pay full price for an unfinished product?

That's only true for certain updates. Perhaps there are things that don't work in my save (league rules in some countries) but it hasn't affected my enjoyment of the save.

Besides, you have 12 months to enjoy the game. Unless you're like me and it takes you a month plus to run a season then what's the problem? Start a save at release and then start a new save with an update. Some people get through seasons in a day.

I suspect it's more of a problem for people who enjoy countries that may have been programmed wrong but they still work. Don't they?

I think of FM as a snapshot in time. An laternate football reality that isn't always the same as the real world. In this current reality (FM22) top players tend to play until they're about 38 and youngsters struggle to make teams unless they're outstanding. It's the age of the bionic near 40s footballer.

Next FM will be different.

I have near 700 hours of enjoyment in this FM. I had a few hundred hours in FM20 or 21 (I forget which - old brain). The database I was using was the beta one and I was managing Bangor City for 5 or 6 seasons. The league sorting rules in Wales were messed up beyond. I had northern teams in the Cymru South, and vice versa. Also the League Cup didn't include teams from the Cymru South and North. It was broken. I still happily did all those seasons until a small error broke my game.

I got my money's worth and above.

 

Is it ideal that there might be errors with rules? No, of course not. SI will most likely say that too.

Can the game still be played at first release. Clearly. I'm evidence of that.

FM is a huge game. Mistakes happen and they work hard to fix them.

 

I believe that most ME errors or things that don't work great will be playable updates, i.e. you can continue your save. Again, FM is a snapshot. It's never going to identally mirror the real world. 

 

You know what? I see no harm in waiting a year and buying it on a sale. If that's what people want to do then that's their choice. I've missed a version before. I needed a break from the game that I play so much. I just think people fail to see that imperfections are going to happen and that game is playable from day 1.

Compare the state of FM at launch to something like Cyberpunk. Many AAA games are broken months after release and cost a lot more for less hours content.

 

And to finish. Criticism is valid. I've never said it isn't. In many, many cases on this forum it's far from constructive though. It's simply wrong that the game isn't playable until the 3rd update, as many allege.

Edited July 28, 2022 by anagain

[anagain]

2 hours ago, bartdude said:

Without hesitation. It's a silly question. The moaners will always moan and the dinosaurs will continue to play old editions, swearing blind they're the best but there's NOTHING out there that's remotely competitive to FM and it evolves with each new edition. This is not even a debate, it's just an excuse to bit*h.

Yep. FM is far from perfection. It has issues each version.

What it is is always playable to an extent at which it becomes better value for money than almost any game on the market.

What else can you spend £40 on and get 700 hours enjoyment from? I make that 5p per hour of enjoyment.

[Brother Ben]

6 hours ago, Powermonger said:

Only real gamers had Amiga 500s, everything above that were just for the posers 

Oh I lorded the fact that mine had the "plus" over my mates.  No idea what the difference was but 13 year old me was pretty smug

[GOODNAME]

Nope

And if i will buy it i will but it after winter patch

Im sick of getting broken ME at the start

 

[SlayerX]

No. Haven't played Football Manager since pre-steam.

It's the same every year. The game isn't perfect, even when it's time to release a new edition. It's a cycle.

In an ideal world Football Manager would be perfect each year, but it's not, so I propose that Sports Interactive release the game every other year.

SI should half the price for each edition and then release a mega-patch a year later for the same price. 

That way SI don't lose out on money and the fans get a better, less buggy game.

[Longhorn]

I'm undecided.  I have been in the habit of buying the new version every year even though many/most of the new features usually don't interest me.  I guess I always hope for a pleasant surprise.  But, I find I play the game less and less of late.  I tend to play a national team and one or more club teams, including an MLS team.  I find many problems with the support for national teams as well as MLS.  Some assurances of improvements in these areas would help.  I'm interested to see how MLS Next and MLS Next Pro are handled.  I would be delighted to learn that the Generation Adidas Cup (which my club team hosts) would be included, but I'm not holding my breath for that. 

[Sunstrikuuu]

Also undecided.  I like a lot about FM22, but since the final patch the number of unfixed bugs and odd design decisions have been really wearing.  I know people complain, with some justification, about the match engine, but the match engine is the part of the game where I'm most at peace.  When I leave the match, I feel like I'm juggling hand grenades, and if I miss one it'll ruin my season.  And it's just... it's frustrating and it's stressful, and I have to hit Continue so many times and I'm literally afraid to hit the Holiday button because every time I do my assman creates a ****ing crisis in the squad.

[Garethjohn79]

If they released it at half or a significant discounted price then more would buy it and you'd get more players spotting the bugs and errors, but as it is more and more are waiting for the final release so to buy the game so now there are fewer ''testing'' the product and leading for the final edition being buggier than previous ones, upsetting them even more and leading them to leave or never buy again.

I don't know what the demographic of FM players is but I'd guess it's getting older and with age comes patience and other priorities, we can wait and will do something else and question whether paying full price for an incomplete product where you do the work to help fix is worth it. Many don't bother buying every year anymore as each edition isn't much more than a database update so can hold on for 2,3 or more editions before buying the next.

There are those who ''have to have it now'' but for how long are you going to pay for the privilege of being a tester fixing bugs for the updates?