The Jack Grealish (and occasionally England) Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570

[Coulthard's Jaw]

43 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

Fair play to any of you that still have much belief after that going forward. Lesson wasn't learnt from three years ago with Southgate. We'll continue to have the most/one of the most stacked squads around for the next 10 years but it's England. Say no more.  

Agree with a lot of what you say. Also worth saying I have zero confidence in the FA appointing a good coach to follow Southgate. Remember he only got the job by accident because Allardyce got caught out.

[Baptista_8]

I would love Potter to be given a go. I don't think he'd have too much risk of ruining his rep should he fail either, the fans would back his style of football.

[skybluedave]

Grealish 100% had a shot. What was it? Denmark? Extra time he cut from the left a fizzed one at the keeper. 99% sure

[martynlcfc]

1 minute ago, skybluedave said:

Grealish 100% had a shot. What was it? Denmark? Extra time he cut from the left a fizzed one at the keeper. 99% sure

Yes that was him. He also had one blocked in extra time last night after it broke to him on the edge of the box.

[GunmaN1905]

11 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

 

Should've kept Big Sam.

[Baptista_8]

He's corrected it

 

[Heartwork]

8 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

I would love Potter to be given a go. I don't think he'd have too much risk of ruining his rep should he fail either, the fans would back his style of football.

Definitely, but I'd give Southgate 2022. Squad is young enough that even if 2022 goes wrong we have plenty of time to rebuild, and one year isn't long enough for a new boss to stamp their style onto the team. If Potter can finally start seeing results with Brighton this season then he'll definitely be in the frame.

[arenaross]

55 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

Well that was absolutely gutting and a typical English heartbreaking way to lose. It just had to be penalties didn't it?  Why, just why? Our penalty history is just bizarre. 2 wins from 9. Why do we struggle so much?

Does feel like an opportunity lost last night. Everything was aligned for us. At Wembley, took the lead less than two minutes in, general play was good for the first 20 minutes, we looked a threat when we attacked, always had a player or two in space in midfield or out wide and then we just...stopped playing. Dropped deeper and deeper and invited pressure from minute 20 til the end. **** sake. So frustrating. We didn't need to do that. We have a better squad than they do. I can understand if we dropped off with 20 minutes to go but not with 70 left on the clock. I remember thinking about 35 minutes in that we're going to lose this because we can't get on the ball, they are bound to get a chance and if they score we've got to switch on and come out and that's a very hard thing to do in football when you've powered down like we had. 

Southgate has done some amazing work in his time as England manager, really he has but he's got to take a lot of the blame for last night. Way too negative and cautious, even before a ball was kicked by going with the 343 formation when there was no need. Then by allowing us to defend so deep that Kane was 25 yards off the half way line and we had no outball when we did get it in our defensive third, he did nothing to encourage our players to be braver and play 15 yards higher up. Leaving the subs as long as he did is a Southgate trademark. So utterly afraid of trying to win the game and taking off any of his three favourites until the last second. Bringing on Rashford and Sancho at the end of ET for the spot kicks was poor. They should've been on at HT in ET at the latest. Leaving Sterling on when he wasn't taking one of the first five pens was poor too. 

It was always going to be a tough ask to win it on penalties. I was struggling to name 5 takers, only certainties were Kane and Rashford. I assumed Sancho was going to take one as he came on so late. Thought Shaw and Grealish would've been one of the five but Saka just did not register when it came to picking five takers. 

Poor again from Southgate here. Putting Saka as 5th pen taker was an incredible risky and bold call and it backfired in the absolute worst way possible. Southgate should've known better. That was really poor and given his own history on penalties I'd have expected better from the manager here. If these were what Southgate deemed his five best takers I'd have certainly had them in a different order. Something like Kane-Saka-Maguire-Sancho-Rashford.

We'll likely not get a better chance of winning something for a long time now. I know we said that after the WC in 2018 but to get two back to back runs like we've had is rare and we've genuinely shot ourselves in the foot both times. Took the lead in both games within the opening five minutes, went into ultra defensive mode, conceded and lost. Should've gone two up against Croatia and shouldn't have gone as defensive as we did as early as we did last night. We had the early goal, the momentum and the home crowd right behind us last night and they couldn't cope with us the first 20 minutes and we just let them off the hook and let them play their game. 

Fair play to any of you that still have much belief after that going forward. Lesson wasn't learnt from three years ago with Southgate. We'll continue to have the most/one of the most stacked squads around for the next 10 years but it's England. Say no more. 

 

Agree with a lot of this but am outta reactions my man.

[Gary_Parker]

1 hour ago, craigcwwe said:

Well that was absolutely gutting and a typical English heartbreaking way to lose. It just had to be penalties didn't it?  Why, just why? Our penalty history is just bizarre. 2 wins from 9. Why do we struggle so much?

Does feel like an opportunity lost last night. Everything was aligned for us. At Wembley, took the lead less than two minutes in, general play was good for the first 20 minutes, we looked a threat when we attacked, always had a player or two in space in midfield or out wide and then we just...stopped playing. Dropped deeper and deeper and invited pressure from minute 20 til the end. **** sake. So frustrating. We didn't need to do that. We have a better squad than they do. I can understand if we dropped off with 20 minutes to go but not with 70 left on the clock. I remember thinking about 35 minutes in that we're going to lose this because we can't get on the ball, they are bound to get a chance and if they score we've got to switch on and come out and that's a very hard thing to do in football when you've powered down like we had. 

Southgate has done some amazing work in his time as England manager, really he has but he's got to take a lot of the blame for last night. Way too negative and cautious, even before a ball was kicked by going with the 343 formation when there was no need. Then by allowing us to defend so deep that Kane was 25 yards off the half way line and we had no outball when we did get it in our defensive third, he did nothing to encourage our players to be braver and play 15 yards higher up. Leaving the subs as long as he did is a Southgate trademark. So utterly afraid of trying to win the game and taking off any of his three favourites until the last second. Bringing on Rashford and Sancho at the end of ET for the spot kicks was poor. They should've been on at HT in ET at the latest. Leaving Sterling on when he wasn't taking one of the first five pens was poor too. 

It was always going to be a tough ask to win it on penalties. I was struggling to name 5 takers, only certainties were Kane and Rashford. I assumed Sancho was going to take one as he came on so late. Thought Shaw and Grealish would've been one of the five but Saka just did not register when it came to picking five takers. 

Poor again from Southgate here. Putting Saka as 5th pen taker was an incredible risky and bold call and it backfired in the absolute worst way possible. Southgate should've known better. That was really poor and given his own history on penalties I'd have expected better from the manager here. If these were what Southgate deemed his five best takers I'd have certainly had them in a different order. Something like Kane-Saka-Maguire-Sancho-Rashford.

We'll likely not get a better chance of winning something for a long time now. I know we said that after the WC in 2018 but to get two back to back runs like we've had is rare and we've genuinely shot ourselves in the foot both times. Took the lead in both games within the opening five minutes, went into ultra defensive mode, conceded and lost. Should've gone two up against Croatia and shouldn't have gone as defensive as we did as early as we did last night. We had the early goal, the momentum and the home crowd right behind us last night and they couldn't cope with us the first 20 minutes and we just let them off the hook and let them play their game. 

Fair play to any of you that still have much belief after that going forward. Lesson wasn't learnt from three years ago with Southgate. We'll continue to have the most/one of the most stacked squads around for the next 10 years but it's England. Say no more. 

 

Thats a fair and balanced post. I don't disagree with a lot of the feeling and emotions in that but I do disagree that you'll not get a better chance of winning something. This squad can do nothing but improve. There are some top quality players in there that are yet to reach their peak and that can only be a good thing. Yes, the next tournament you're not going to have home advantage but everyone in that squad learned a lot in this tournament (or you hope they did) that will serve them well in the next one at what should be neutral venues. 

The penalties were odd, I can only assume none of the players involved objected to their selection and order, whether that was because they felt doing so would be letting the rest down, or confidence in their ability. Its not the order I would have gone with, for me Kane would be 5th, Saka first. I also think part of the penalty struggle is because media etc makes a big deal out of penalty struggles, its a weight on the collective shoulders. 

Being Scottish, i'm not gutted about the result, but i'm gutted for the players who had the confidence to step forward, penalties is a horrible way to lose a game, let alone a final.

[Reggiana]

Just now, Gary_Parker said:

Being Scottish, i'm not gutted about the result, but i'm gutted for the players who had the confidence to step forward, penalties is a horrible way to lose a game, let alone a final.

That's why I prefer shootouts like last night where a few players miss, always think it must be worse if you're the only person to miss.

[Wolf_pd]

49 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Baptista_8 said:

 

 

This doesn't compute together. Apart from the penalty thing.

[Rob1981]

9 minutes ago, Reggiana said:

That's why I prefer shootouts like last night where a few players miss

We’re pretty good at those tbf  

[Marc Albrighton]

Still pretty fuming with how the game was managed tbh, he learned absolutely nothing from 3 years ago and seemed to bizarrely want a shootout. All of that is possibly for another time but gutted at the abuse some of our players got. Saka seems like the nicest kid in the world and the fact that he got put into that situation and then was racially abused because of it is just heartbreaking man.

Pretty brutal way to lose it considering we never actually lost a game and conceded 2 in 7 games but that and the few thousand idiots who usually embarrass us aside i think it was a pretty enjoyable journey with some absolutely unforgettable moments.

[BigV]

1 hour ago, Smallen said:

Have said it before but I hope one of the elite clubs buy Rice and play him at centre half. It’s the position best suited to his abilities by far. Him playing in midfield for West Ham reeks of a team playing their best player further forward because they need to.

Rather having him read the game further up than the defensive line, he's an anchor/ball winner in CDM and is aggressive, he'd be a waste to have that in CB when he can protect the backline alot better. 

[enigmatic]

11 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

He's corrected it

 

Also seems dumb to highlight "set piece taker" status when set piece crosses aren't counted as "key passes", or to talk about "only one shot involvement" when two of them ended up with assists.

 

 

[Smallen]

1 minute ago, BigV said:

Rather having him read the game further up than the defensive line, he's an anchor/ball winner in CDM and is aggressive, he'd be a waste to have that in CB when he can protect the backline alot better. 

The unfortunate thing is he's far too limited with the ball to play in midfield at international level. At least if we want to win, anyway.

[BigV]

1 minute ago, Smallen said:

The unfortunate thing is he's far too limited with the ball to play in midfield at international level. At least if we want to win, anyway.

That I can agree with however, if he was in a different system with a CDM then he'd probably look/be better overall. 

Yesterday he drove with the ball and made some huge strides and opened up space, not watched him enough to know if he does that reguluarly but it worked. 

Kalvin phillips is more of the ball progressor though in this side and yesterday mount was barely seen but thats cause of Kane dropping so deep. Mount/Grealish/Foden can all play as 8's just they're better off closer to goal

[sedge11]

3 hours ago, Andrew_ said:

What's annoying is it was the best possible chance to do it and it wasn't a feeling of England gave everything but Italy edged it, because everything was left on the bench far too long.

Its mad because I said after the Germany win we weren’t utilising the attacking talent we had, and we played too negative. I got slated on this thread for saying it, yet that’s exactly how the final turned out, and a lot of people are now saying a similar thing.

Kane 1 of the best strikers in the world didn’t have a single shot because we gave him no service. The quality we had on the bench and it wasn’t used properly.

With the draw we had we won’t get a better chance at a trophy a massive massive opportunity missed. As much as these players will be better in 2 years time, so will a lot of other teams.

[Smallen]

12 minutes ago, BigV said:

That I can agree with however, if he was in a different system with a CDM then he'd probably look/be better overall. 

Yesterday he drove with the ball and made some huge strides and opened up space, not watched him enough to know if he does that reguluarly but it worked. 

Kalvin phillips is more of the ball progressor though in this side and yesterday mount was barely seen but thats cause of Kane dropping so deep. Mount/Grealish/Foden can all play as 8's just they're better off closer to goal

Yeah, he was great in the first half yesterday. It was an exception to the rest of his performances this tournament imo.

But yeah, if we're playing two deep midfielders they both need to have more to their game than tackling and interceptions. Phillips does; Rice doesn't.

[aggressive minor]

2 hours ago, Yuko said:

England needs to invite more depth at central midfield. 

 

That's the one thing that wins you tournaments. Having high quality players is obviously a factor, but having many that occupy the same positions isn't helping much. 

 

There was Phillips and Rice who have had a great tournament, Henderson who is a decent choice, Bellingham who is raw. But you need more. Who are the other guys? Maybe both Mount and Foden could be slotted there in a 3 man system.

Look at the past Euro and World champions, even Greece of 2004, the main strength of these teams aside from tactical awareness at the back, was the force of the center of their midfield. It allows you to control the game and that was what England was lacking in the last two encounters. Versus Denmark they turned the game around after the Danes made their subs and loat the midfield after 65-70 minutes. Versus Italy they had no chance.

You can shout that Sancho and Rashford or others need to play more, but that means that Sterling and Kane have to go off. I don't think Southgate had the guts to do that. The midfield is too thin for that to be a possibility and conceding is always a risk, so guarding the back line felt like a higher priority for the manager. I don't think England could have reached the final and make it a tough game without this approach. 

This is spot on, it's tiresome seeing us give up possession again in a big game. 

[themadsheep2001]

Good on him. 

 

[skybluedave]

I really like Mings. Saw plenty of interviews with his this summer and comes across as a really good bloke. 

[Heartwork]

3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Good on him. 

 

Get the feeling most of the squad will reject any invitation from No. 10 that comes their way.

[The_jagster]

5 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

I really like Mings. Saw plenty of interviews with his this summer and comes across as a really good bloke. 

Just a shame about the on-pitch thuggery

[skybluedave]

How depressing is it that this being posted by a 17 year old.

[skybluedave]

9 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Just a shame about the on-pitch thuggery

I was going to caveat it with off pitch 

[Heartwork]

I say they go. And use the occasion to humiliate the government, challenge the government on their constant failures and do it all in front of the cameras.

[craigcwwe]

4 hours ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Agree with a lot of what you say. Also worth saying I have zero confidence in the FA appointing a good coach to follow Southgate. Remember he only got the job by accident because Allardyce got caught out.

Yeah I get that, fair point, they did stumble upon Southgate after the Big Sam incident aye. Christ, as grim as losing last night was, and in the manner in which we lost, can you imagine this England squad managed by Sam Allardyce? *Shudders* 

On a serious note, I can see Frank Lampard being a strong contender when the time comes. Maybe even Steven Gerrard. There's also been talk about Graham Potter whenever this discussion comes up. I'd say those are the three at the forefront atm. The FA of course want to give Southgate an extension to his current contract but it seems Southgate isn't committing to it just yet, he has said that he wants to lead the team to Qatar 2022 but whether he's interested in sticking around after that remains to be seen. 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by craigcwwe

[themadsheep2001]

Leave Southgate till 2022 at least. Then make a decision. Nothing about Lampard makes me think he's a good shout. 

[craigcwwe]

3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Leave Southgate till 2022 at least. Then make a decision. Nothing about Lampard makes me think he's a good shout. 

Not saying he'd be a great appointment or anything, just that I think he's likely to be in the running.

[PaulHartman71]

42 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Good on him. 

 

 

Look how far England as a team has come in 10-15 years. 
 

Incredible to see this kind of thing. 
 

No sitting on the fence or scared of saying the wrong thing. 
 

Never been more invested in an England team. 

So proud of what Southgate has helped create. 

[skybluedave]

Southgate and the FA with St George's Park have laid good foundations for the next manager.

I think it's a more attrractive job then it was 10 years ago. 

[skybluedave]

11 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

 

Look how far England as a team has come in 10-15 years. 
 

Incredible to see this kind of thing. 
 

No sitting on the fence or scared of saying the wrong thing. 
 

Never been more invested in an England team. 

So proud of what Southgate has helped create. 

Winning titles doesn't matter. Most important thing is the friends you make along the way 

[Smallen]

I love this team.

[PaulHartman71]

I think given how utterly snubbed he was even for the Spurs job that Graham Potter would jump at the chance to take it given he’s highly unlikely to get a Top 6 job any time soon. 
 

Eddie Howe surely in a new job by then if Southgate does go after 22 World Cup. 
 

Lampard and Gerrard undoubtedly options they’d look at. Personally think Gerrard unless his reputation has taken a drop by getting sacked by Rangers or something will stay in club management as he obviously wants the Liverpool job eventually. Lampard I could definitely see taking it. 

[Baptista_8]

I just think Potter would bring such a fresh approach tactically

[VP.]

 

[ajw10]

We lost to Iceland five years ago. We hadn't got to a semi final since 1996 when Southgate came in.

Since then we've made it to a semi final and final. We've gone to a joke in Europe to one of the best sides in Europe.

Honestly, if you are seriously suggesting alternatives to Southgate a day after he lost a ****ing final, then you deserve to support the England side that got humiliated by Iceland

[craigcwwe]

7 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

I just think Potter would bring such a fresh approach tactically

Would just play the same 343/352 no?

[craigcwwe]

Just now, ajw10 said:

We lost to Iceland five years ago. We hadn't got to a semi final since 1996 when Southgate came in.

Since then we've made it to a semi final and final. We've gone to a joke in Europe to one of the best sides in Europe.

Honestly, if you are seriously suggesting alternatives to Southgate a day after he lost a ****ing final, then you deserve to support the England side that got humiliated by Iceland

I don't think anyone is wanting Southgate out. Just pointing out who might take over after him as it doesn't sound like he's staying on past next year. 

He's doing a very good job and I want him to continue fwiw.

[Baptista_8]

Just now, craigcwwe said:

Would just play the same 343/352 no?

Look at the way he's got Brighton playing. I'm not even sure what formation he plays, assuming it's a 433, but the football they play is so easy on the eye, especially considering they don't have one of the better squads in the league. If they could finish, they'd have had a much better season than what they did.

I think it would be exciting to see what he could do with England.

[Baptista_8]

2 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

We lost to Iceland five years ago. We hadn't got to a semi final since 1996 when Southgate came in.

Since then we've made it to a semi final and final. We've gone to a joke in Europe to one of the best sides in Europe.

Honestly, if you are seriously suggesting alternatives to Southgate a day after he lost a ****ing final, then you deserve to support the England side that got humiliated by Iceland

Just a discussion mate, chill out a bit ffs.

[Baptista_8]

And where's your owning up after slating me last night regarding pen taker selection, and since being proved wrong?

[XuluBak]

1 minute ago, craigcwwe said:

Would just play the same 343/352 no?

Just because it's 3ATB, doesn't mean it's the same. 

[Baptista_8]

And just because we've got to a final, I'd still put at least four sides in Europe ahead of us.

Italy

Spain

Portugal

France

[XuluBak]

3 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Look at the way he's got Brighton playing. I'm not even sure what formation he plays, assuming it's a 433, but the football they play is so easy on the eye, especially considering they don't have one of the better squads in the league. If they could finish, they'd have had a much better season than what they did.

I think it would be exciting to see what he could do with England.

Think he prefers 3412, but they finished playing mostly 3421.

[ajw10]

2 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

And where's your owning up after slating me last night regarding pen taker selection, and since being proved wrong?

Why are you so desperate for this? I mean, you've spent most of this tournament slating Southgate and hyping Grealish, before then making excuses that he's failed to deliver.

Still not entirely convinced we're being told the truth regarding penalties. 

[PaulHartman71]

I think Southgate’s comments suggest to me he’d like a half decent club job in the Prem after the next World Cup to give it a real go at being a top level manager at club level. 

[Baptista_8]

I'm not desperate for anything. You wrongly made an assumption based on no facts whatsoever and laughed off any opinion to the contrary. I questionned it at the time and it's since come out that your assumption was wrong.

What excuses have I made about Grealish exactly? I even made a genuine one for your fav player Saka last night, so it would probably have been along the same lines.

[bestbrother]

16 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

And just because we've got to a final, I'd still put at least four sides in Europe ahead of us.

Italy

Spain

Portugal

France

I think thats fair, I dont think Holland are far off and id expect Germany to have a rebuild ready to go again though im not sure what state those coming through are in.

Flick may get a tune from the squad though.