The Jack Grealish (and occasionally England) Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570

[PaulHartman71]

I think the World Cup could throw up some crazy results to be honest. Could see a proper left field winner. 
 

Never had a World Cup mid season before or in winter around the Christmas period. In a proper different country with I assume a crap atmosphere at most games, could be some mad/weird political stuff happening throughout the entire tournament. 
 

Think it will be very difficult for most teams and players to adapt. 

[Smallen]

We’ll win the World Cup. John Stones’ redemption arc does not end here.

[skybluedave]

Lets lay off the bickering and discuss something that 100% will lead to no bickering at all. No chance.

Top 5 England players this summer in order of greatness.

1. STERLING

2. SHAW

3. MAGUIRE

4. STONES

5. PHILLIPS

Think top 4 are quite set. 5th a bit tricky. Could be number of people

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

13 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Lets lay off the bickering and discuss something that 100% will lead to no bickering at all. No chance.

Top 5 England players this summer in order of greatness.

1. STERLING

2. SHAW

3. MAGUIRE

4. STONES

5. PHILLIPS

Think top 4 are quite set. 5th a bit tricky. Could be number of people

That's pretty solid. I'd pick Müller in 5th

[Heartwork]

15 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Lets lay off the bickering and discuss something that 100% will lead to no bickering at all. No chance.

Top 5 England players this summer in order of greatness.

1. STERLING

2. SHAW

3. MAGUIRE

4. STONES

5. PHILLIPS

Think top 4 are quite set. 5th a bit tricky. Could be number of people

Pickford deserves an honorable mention for some of his stops

[PaulHartman71]

16 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Lets lay off the bickering and discuss something that 100% will lead to no bickering at all. No chance.

Top 5 England players this summer in order of greatness.

1. STERLING

2. SHAW

3. MAGUIRE

4. STONES

5. PHILLIPS

Think top 4 are quite set. 5th a bit tricky. Could be number of people

I think Sterling, Shaw, Walker, Maguire and Pickford. 
 

Can’t really rank them though to be honest. 
 

Stones, Rice and Phillips all great too to be fair. 

[skybluedave]

7 minutes ago, The Amazing Dale Watkins said:

That's pretty solid. I'd pick Müller in 5th

Ahh I'm so annoyed I didn't think of adding him. Would have been perfect 5th 

[ajw10]

27 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Lets lay off the bickering and discuss something that 100% will lead to no bickering at all. No chance.

Top 5 England players this summer in order of greatness.

1. STERLING

2. SHAW

3. MAGUIRE

4. STONES

5. PHILLIPS

Think top 4 are quite set. 5th a bit tricky. Could be number of people

Sterling, Walker, Maguire, Shaw, Stones

[Rebs]

32 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Lets lay off the bickering and discuss something that 100% will lead to no bickering at all. No chance.

Top 5 England players this summer in order of greatness.

1. STERLING

2. SHAW

3. MAGUIRE

4. STONES

5. PHILLIPS

Think top 4 are quite set. 5th a bit tricky. Could be number of people

Think I'd go Sterling, Shaw, Maguire, Walker, Phillips. Stones could maybe be in there over Phillips as Phillips tailed off a bit over the tournament. First 4 are nailed on for me though.

[PaulHartman71]

 

They’re absolutely rattled by what Southgate has done  

 

[ryan045]

Sterling, Shaw, Pickford, Maguire & Walker my top 5.

Just on a side note, I don’t want to see Rice & Phillips as our midfield 2 in the next tournament. We have potential to be a much better possession side.
 

 

[InigoPatinkin]

34 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

 

They’re absolutely rattled by what Southgate has done  

Any doubts anyone had about Southgate should be gone now Rod Liddle has spoken  

[Pukey]

I mean, I completely understand discussing Southgate's flaws, because there absolutely are some, but to act like he's done a terrible job is just straight up bollocks.

[eenie]

33 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

Any doubts anyone had about Southgate should be gone now Rod Liddle has spoken  

Yeah  You would have to ask yourself the question: what the **** does Rod Liddle know about football? Or about being a nice man, for that matter.

[VamPook]

Clearly still have to give Southgate next year and pray he actually learns for the 3rd tourney in a row

But literally almost everything went England's way this tourney to get to the final

Hell, Italy even lost their best performing player before the final, and then even their best attacker went off injured during the match.

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

4 hours ago, Pukey said:

I mean, I completely understand discussing Southgate's flaws, because there absolutely are some, but to act like he's done a terrible job is just straight up bollocks.

Agreed. ffs, you guys were one penalty shootout win away from knighting and putting him on a bill.

[VP.]

Kinda shows Southgate asking Saka if he'll take the 5th pen. Said before the pen was taken I've no idea why he was asked as knew from the moment I saw him walking up he'd miss.

Now I get Southgate believed Saka could handle the pressure as knows him better than us, but you could just see from his performance during the game it was a bad idea.

Much like bringing on Rashford and Sancho on so late as how often do we say a player has to get into the game after coming on as their first pass etc may be a bit off. We'll these two were coming on and their first meaningful touch was to take a penalty in a huge final,  no surprise they missed. Should have come on long before and certain Rasford was getting ready before halftime in extra time.

[EnterUsernameHere]

I genuinely forget what I thought at the time, so could well be judging on hindsight here, but looking back, Saka taking 5th does stick out as a poor choice.

Altho tbf I'm not a fan of leaving your best taker (even if he missed) until last.

Best 3 should be the first 3.

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

15 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

I genuinely forget what I thought at the time, so could well be judging on hindsight here, but looking back, Saka taking 5th does stick out as a poor choice.

Altho tbf I'm not a fan of leaving your best taker (even if he missed) until last.

Best 3 should be the first 3.

Well, depends what you mean by best takers. Saka, Sancho and Rashford were among the best in training, but in a situation like that it's the mental fortitude that matters. Clearly, putting Saka in that position was a mistake. You end up wasting your best taker sometimes if you put them last and the game is already decided by then (as has happened to Ronaldo), but if you really need someone to rely on during clutch time, you don't pick the 19-year old who's never been in a situation like that. Putting the captain in 5th is a solid strategy, even if it sometimes backfires.

[EnterUsernameHere]

13 minutes ago, The Amazing Dale Watkins said:

Well, depends what you mean by best takers. Saka, Sancho and Rashford were among the best in training, but in a situation like that it's the mental fortitude that matters. Clearly, putting Saka in that position was a mistake. You end up wasting your best taker sometimes if you put them last and the game is already decided by then (as has happened to Ronaldo), but if you really need someone to rely on during clutch time, you don't pick the 19-year old who's never been in a situation like that. Putting the captain in 5th is a solid strategy, even if it sometimes backfires.

I may be wrong but I think it's cost Cristiano Ronaldo twice now. 

I think my view is pretty old school but I'd rather just get the best takers up there 1-3. Although I guess that's not overly relevant since Saka wasn't one of England's top 3.

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

It's laughable for you or me to think we'd know better than Southgate anyways. In hindsight, he may have picked a different lineup, but he's the one who's been there with the players the entire time, and he's the one who's actually been in that situation as a player himself.

[EnterUsernameHere]

If you mean the penalty shoot out lineup then yeah, fair enough. I know from my armchair that I would have picked differently but it's easy to say from the outside and maybe would have been worse for England.

I'd be stronger in my opinion if you were to debate starting 11 or subs though.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, The Amazing Dale Watkins said:

Well, depends what you mean by best takers. Saka, Sancho and Rashford were among the best in training, but in a situation like that it's the mental fortitude that matters. Clearly, putting Saka in that position was a mistake. You end up wasting your best taker sometimes if you put them last and the game is already decided by then (as has happened to Ronaldo), but if you really need someone to rely on during clutch time, you don't pick the 19-year old who's never been in a situation like that. Putting the captain in 5th is a solid strategy, even if it sometimes backfires.

Well then the rest of them must have been really crap.

Saka volunteered despite the fact he had suffered mixed results over the past week during penalty practice in training

England’s planning for penalty shootouts has been meticulous for over three years, with Southgate’s assistant Steve Holland keeping a running league table from training.

Southgate and Holland also log players’ penalty records for their clubs, but Saka’s spot-kick against Italy in the final was the first he has taken in his senior career.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[Rob1981]

8 hours ago, Pukey said:

I mean, I completely understand discussing Southgate's flaws, because there absolutely are some, but to act like he's done a terrible job is just straight up bollocks.

Nah, come on. Southgate is a joke manager even though he was a couple of missed penalties away from a knighthood. And Mancini is a genius for the ages even though Italy only won one knockout game out of four in ninety minutes. That’s how it works, right?

[EnterUsernameHere]

20 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Nah, come on. Southgate is a joke manager even though he was a couple of missed penalties away from a knighthood. And Mancini is a genius for the ages even though Italy only won one knockout game out of four in ninety minutes. That’s how it works, right?

The thing is, there were a lot of people (myself included) who thought Southgate did a lot wrong even when England were winning. 

He did ok overall. His main limitation, being too cautious, eventually cost him. You can disagree if you want but people aren't criticising him after the fact here. 

I'd still be looking to move him on personally as a non-England fan, but that doesn't mean he's done a terrible job.

 

 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Gareth's way has worked, but it's fine margins, it's always going to be fine margins if you play for the 1-0 win. I would not be at all surprised if we get dumped out of the World Cup at the last 16 stage, would that suddenly make Gareth a bad manager who needs changing?

Edited July 13, 2021 by Coulthard's Jaw

[Guest]

I personally think Southgate has improved as a manager but he still has a couple of glaring holes in his management that I am not convinced he will solve but he has surprised me already so who knows.

[skybluedave]

The words from Southgate about his contract, not wanting to overstay his welcome are encouraging. The job he's done on and off the pitch means the FA are never going to sack him. They gave Hodgson 3 tournaments and it took a monster disaster for him to go. I don't want Southgate to stick around so long that he becomes the villain and it seems he's aware of that. If it stops working I think he will walk away. I don't think he's the type of man to stick around for as long as possible and wait for the sack. Which is good. 

The vibe I'm getting is he will see lay of the land after the WC. Which I'm happy with. It's a short turnaround to WC, hopefully maintain momentum and he continues to improve as a manager. Because he has improved. And hopefully that improvement helps bring more success in Qatar. 

Then after WC if he leaves, there is an amazing set up for a new guy to freshen up. 

 

 

[eenie]

5 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Gareth's way has worked, but it's fine margins, it's always going to be fine margins if you play for the 1-0 win. I would not be at all surprised if we get dumped out of the World Cup at the last 16 stage, would that suddenly make Gareth a bad manager who needs changing?

Going out at that stage, in and of itself, wouldn't make him a bad manager, but replacing him would depend on the context. If it's due to not making the right subs, being too cautious, not creating any meaningful chances for your star striker, then maybe it would be time for a change.

To be fair it'll probably be time for a change anyway. Three tournaments is pretty good longevity for an international manager, and exceptional for an English one!

[Barry Cartman]

12 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

And where's your owning up after slating me last night regarding pen taker selection, and since being proved wrong?

He can apologise to you when you apologise to the thread for all the stuff Grealish was going to do when he was on the pitch that he did none of  

[Darren Moores Mum]

9 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Gareth's way has worked, but it's fine margins, it's always going to be fine margins if you play for the 1-0 win. I would not be at all surprised if we get dumped out of the World Cup at the last 16 stage, would that suddenly make Gareth a bad manager who needs changing?

It's a problem that this squad is being made to play for the 1-0 win though.

I accept that Southgate isn't as bad as I'd made out at times prior to this tournament, but I'm also concerned that we will be here in 18 months time saying the same things about being cautious, holding onto a lead, not making changes when things are drifting away etc. 3 tournaments would be a hell of a lot to give an international manager at a big nation. Beyond that and I wonder how much you're going to learn and adapt, instead becoming stale as we are left musing over another 'golden generation' that could have won something but didn't.

As always the truth is somewhere in between 'win = got it absolutely perfectly spot on and you can't critiscise him for anything' and 'lose = got everything wrong and he's utterly terrible'.

[Bigwig]

I still think his weaknesses regarding match day management remain and haven’t improved enough since the last World Cup so don’t have much hope of him learning enough in the next 18 months.

During the last World Cup I always felt that we should reach the final but if we did, I expected we would probably lose to France unless there was an upset.  The Euros were different as I thought we were at least on par with Italy if not slightly better due to having a stronger overall squad which makes the defeat all the more disappointing.

I’ve said this before but I think Southgate has benefitted from following a long list of managers who have underachieved, so just meeting expectations is seen as an achievement. I know football isn’t that simple, but taking the managers out of the equation if you look at England’s record in the last World Cup and Euros they’ve won all of the games where they were favourites. 

[VP.]

His match preparation, tactical set up etc was 10/10 for me.

But his in game management would be lucky to be 3/10. Like in 2018 as soon as there is a real test in front of him he comes up a long way short. We was lucky the Danes ran themselves into the ground ending up with 10 players and that's without the penalty decision. Then against Italy we was brilliant for 15 mins until Mancini changed things and then Southgate had no answer to that for the rest of the match and once again refused to make changes until it was too late.

[PaulHartman71]

Said it in the Arsenal thread but if he had to go with those 5 as the first 5 then Maguire should’ve taken the 5th one. You don’t put your best (Kane) on the 5th, but you should put someone with good strength of character who could handle being the guy who missed the big one. 

[Guest]

Just now, VP. said:

His match preparation, tactical set up etc was 10/10 for me.

But his in game management would be lucky to be 3/10. Like in 2018 as soon as there is a real test in front of him he comes up a long way short. We was lucky the Danes ran themselves into the ground ending up with 10 players and that's without the penalty decision. Then against Italy we was brilliant for 15 mins until Mancini changed things and then Southgate had no answer to that for the rest of the match and once again refused to make changes until it was too late.

He actually reminds me a lot of Low which is why I said before the Eng-Ger game that I thought England would nudge it because they had the better quality team. When Flick left the German setup after 2014 it was palpable how Low was unable to respond to changes in opposition tactics especially the Tier 1 nations. I see some of the same deficiencies in both managers. 

[Bigwig]

Denmark were flagging at around the hour mark but we seemed determined to save subs for extra time and finish them off then rather than bring on some fresh legs during normal time to try amd wrap the game up.

Obviously it worked, but it could have easily blown up in our faces. 

[CMOZZA]

13 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

He can apologise to you when you apologise to the thread for all the stuff Grealish was going to do when he was on the pitch that he did none of  

2 assists in less than 2 games worth of minutes (Spread across 5) is plenty more than some of our attacking players did in Southgate's systems.

Not defending Baptista's excessiveness earlier in the thread but I think Grealish and Sterling are the only two attacking players to come out of this tournament in a better light than they were going into it. But I put that down to the cautious approach more than anything.

[The_jagster]

Southgate has his way, and tbf to him I think other managers wouldn't beat that Germany, who are still a good side if not imperious.

There is no guarantee that going more attacking against Italy wouldn't have seen us lose 2-1 or still lose on pens. But he didn't maximise our chances of winning. Juhlman took England to extra time but I didn't think their tactical set up was as good as it could be even though it took a lucky penalty to beat them. 

Who looks at the Italy eleven that played extra time and thinks your best chance is to take them to pens?

[Astafjevs]

45 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Gareth's way has worked, but it's fine margins, it's always going to be fine margins if you play for the 1-0 win. I would not be at all surprised if we get dumped out of the World Cup at the last 16 stage, would that suddenly make Gareth a bad manager who needs changing?

Kind of how I see it. If England win the shootout nobody says a word about the game. We'd be told how Southgate planned it all perfectly and got everything right, anyone saying Italy were the better team would just get told to 'suck it up' or something like that.

But they lost and so there's a few complaints about the approach and how they should've been braver. You either accept the approach and hope it works out, like it did for France, or get someone in who will be more expansive

[Barry Cartman]

18 minutes ago, CMOZZA said:

2 assists in less than 2 games worth of minutes (Spread across 5) is plenty more than some of our attacking players did in Southgate's systems.

Not defending Baptista's excessiveness earlier in the thread but I think Grealish and Sterling are the only two attacking players to come out of this tournament in a better light than they were going into it. But I put that down to the cautious approach more than anything.

I mean, I was clearly joking about all the **** Baptista has spouted in here over the past month about how Grealish was going to demand the ball when others wouldn't etc and wouldn't let games pass him by, but then you reply to me saying how Grealish is the only one other than Sterling to come out in a better light

People didn't even want Saka in their 26 man squads ffs  

[CMOZZA]

Just now, Barry Cartman said:

I mean, I was clearly joking about all the **** Baptista has spouted in here over the past month about how Grealish was going to demand the ball when others wouldn't etc and wouldn't let games pass him by, but then you reply to me saying how Grealish is the only one other than Sterling to come out in a better light

People didn't even want Saka in their 26 man squads ffs  

Sorry, actually forgot about Saka.

[Baptista_8]

50 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

He can apologise to you when you apologise to the thread for all the stuff Grealish was going to do when he was on the pitch that he did none of  

Kinda tough when you're thrown on with little time, when the team's under the cosh with hardly any possession. Still got two assists in limited minutes though 👌

Edited July 13, 2021 by Baptista_8

[Baptista_8]

32 minutes ago, CMOZZA said:

2 assists in less than 2 games worth of minutes (Spread across 5) is plenty more than some of our attacking players did in Southgate's systems.

Not defending Baptista's excessiveness earlier in the thread but I think Grealish and Sterling are the only two attacking players to come out of this tournament in a better light than they were going into it. But I put that down to the cautious approach more than anything.

I don't spout it for the sake of it, or because of club bias, I genuinely believe he's that good.

[The_jagster]

Just now, Baptista_8 said:

I don't spout it for the sake of it, or because of club bias, I genuinely believe he's that good.

I'm sure you believe he is that good but of course there's club bias. It's why Barry always defends Sterling, ajw always defends Saka and Pukey always defends Phillips.

You are kidding yourself if you think that you would act in the same way if you thought Sancho deserved to play more because of his ability.

[samuelawachie]

2 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

I'm sure you believe he is that good but of course there's club bias. It's why Barry always defends Sterling, ajw always defends Saka and Pukey always defends Phillips.

You are kidding yourself if you think that you would act in the same way if you thought Sancho deserved to play more because of his ability.

I was going to say something about nation bias too, but then 

[samuelawachie]

Of course, jokes aside, we are all biased to some extent. Everyone has a skin in the game.   

Except perhaps you're not a fan of football at all, and just a casual viewer of the sport.

Edited July 13, 2021 by samuelawachie

[Baptista_8]

1 minute ago, The_jagster said:

I'm sure you believe he is that good but of course there's club bias. It's why Barry always defends Sterling, ajw always defends Saka and Pukey always defends Phillips.

You are kidding yourself if you think that you would act in the same way if you thought Sancho deserved to play more because of his ability.

I don't know how you can watch Grealish play as much as me and not think he's a truly special player. There are plenty of very knowledgeable neutral ex pros who share my opinion.

But hey ho, this has been done to death by now. No point having the debate again 👍

[samuelawachie]

I got to say, I know I've been a thorn in the side of the English fans for the tournament. Now the tournament is over, remember that we're all still friends. Alright? No personal hurts, and no hate. Hugs all-round. (:

England did do well after all. I'm happy Spain did well enough too. On to club football now and getting Barca back in shape.

Edited July 13, 2021 by samuelawachie

[themadsheep2001]

24 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Kinda tough when you're thrown on with little time, when the team's under the cosh with hardly any possession. Still got two assists in limited minutes though 👌

Just like every other sub then. Come on man, don't need to make excuses

[themadsheep2001]

19 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

I'm sure you believe he is that good but of course there's club bias. It's why Barry always defends Sterling, ajw always defends Saka and Pukey always defends Phillips.

You are kidding yourself if you think that you would act in the same way if you thought Sancho deserved to play more because of his ability.

When people made the argument for Saka starting based on his impact, didn't see the same enthusiasm from him, personally.