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The Jack Grealish (and occasionally England) Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570

Pukey

By Pukey,
in Euro 2020/21 Forum

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Bigwig

Bigwig

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I’m guessing pretty much no one criticising players for not taking pens has any idea of what’s happening in training.

For all we know the likes of Rashford, Sancho and Saka are smashing them in every time while Grealish and Sterling are blazing them high or wide most of the time, but we should go with the latter just because they have more experience.

I could maybe understand if someone who didn’t take a penalty had a track record of taking them successfully for their club, but I don’t think that applied to anyone last night.

 

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Jorg

Jorg

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Just now, Bigwig said:

I’m guessing pretty much no one criticising players for not taking pens has any idea of what’s happening in training.

For all we know the likes of Rashford, Sancho and Saka are smashing them in every time while Grealish and Sterling are blazing them high or wide most of the time, but we should go with the latter just because they have more experience.

I could maybe understand if someone who didn’t take a penalty had a track record of taking them successfully for their club, but I don’t think that applied to anyone last night.

Exactly.  I remember looking at it with five minutes to go and at that point England had one penalty taker on the pitch and that was Kane.  The only thing I found strange was Rashford and Sancho were ready to come on as the second half of extra-time kicked off so I'm not sure why they waited so long to get them on.

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Smallen

Smallen

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9 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Pretty much me 

I’m sat here at work just completely empty. A few customers have rang up and I think it’s the least helpful I’ve ever been :D. All I can muster is one word answers.

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sebsy

sebsy

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Whilst it is gutting that we lost last night - including the manner of the defeat - I am most buoyed today when I look at where our squad is at right now.

When you look at what we achieved over the past 4 weeks, and then at the ages of the players, the future is looking very bright indeed. Mostly in the attacking areas, but then you want more experience in your more defensive players.

Rice, Mount, Foden, Rashford, Sancho, Saka, Bellingham all 23 or under and should all hopefully be far from their best.

Even the oldest players in the squad, Walker and Henderson, have only just turned 31.

Phillips, Grealish, Shaw, Sterling all 25/26 and have another 4 good tournaments left in them.

Then you have the likes of Maguire and Kane who still have a few tournaments left in them too.

It's actually quite exciting where this squad is at right now, before you factor other players who will come to the fore over the next few years.

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skybluedave

skybluedave

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Yeah last night hurts. But overall the tournament was mega fun and surpassed my expectations. So I'm not going to complain too much. And try to stay away from finger pointing while it's so fresh

All I want from England at a major comp are some nice memories. And I have some great ones this year. The Germany game and win was probably the most pumped I've ever been for a game/result. The atmosphere in the ground after the game will be a classic England memory for decades to come. 

And while the result last night sucked, I can honestly say I enjoyed every minute last night. Maybe 'enjoyed' not the right word. Relished maybe. I promised myself I'd savour every moment yesterday as it was historical and I think I did.  It was stressful and heartbreaking at times but overall it's a football day I'll never forget. 

Coupled with the promising talents coming through I'm optimistic.  This doesn't feel like the only chance we will get IMO

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PaulHartman71

PaulHartman71

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1 hour ago, Barry Cartman said:

Not many other occasions as a football fan where i've celebrated a moment more than that Pickford save from Jorginho


Biblical scenes in the pub I was in. Went so mad I don’t think half of us realised Saka missing meant we’d lost :D 

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Astafjevs

Astafjevs

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9 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:


Biblical scenes in the pub I was in. Went so mad I don’t think half of us realised Saka missing meant we’d lost :D 

I didn't either. Saka missed and I was waiting for the next Italian taker. I don't think Donnarumma strolling off to the side with no celebration after saving it helped

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Pukey

Pukey

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1 hour ago, Barry Cartman said:

Not many other occasions as a football fan where i've celebrated a moment more than that Pickford save from Jorginho

Even with Jorginho's record, for some reason I had absolute confidence Pickford was saving it. Feel for him really, he had a fantastic shootout, can't really ask for more from a keeper.

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Barry Cartman

Barry Cartman

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1 minute ago, Astafjevs said:

I didn't either. Saka missed and I was waiting for the next Italian taker. I don't think Donnarumma strolling off to the side with no celebration after saving it helped

I thought he knew he was off his line so was expecting a VAR retake, couldn't understand what was going on at all for several moments 

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outlander

outlander

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24 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

I thought he knew he was off his line so was expecting a VAR retake, couldn't understand what was going on at all for several moments 

No chance. First of all, he was perfectly on the line and also there would've been a minimal chance of it being ordered to be re-taken even if he was off the line, considering that it was never picked up at the tournament.

He was just trying to be cool with it. Like it's a regular job to make a EURO winning penalty save.

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Coulthard's Jaw

Coulthard's Jaw

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7 minutes ago, outlander said:

No chance. First of all, he was perfectly on the line and also there would've been a minimal chance of it being ordered to be re-taken even if he was off the line, considering that it was never picked up at the tournament.

VAR was checking every penalty.

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Barry Cartman

Barry Cartman

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3 minutes ago, outlander said:

No chance. First of all, he was perfectly on the line and also there would've been a minimal chance of it being ordered to be re-taken even if he was off the line, considering that it was never picked up at the tournament.

He was just trying to be cool with it. Like it's a regular job to make a EURO winning penalty save.

Of course it would have, Sommer didn't celebrate against France until the ref gave him the ok from VAR 

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Andrew_

Andrew_

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Was mentioned above but Walker did feel like a cheat player with speed and recovery maxed out for most of the tournament. 

I wanted England to win but wouldn't call myself an England fan. What's annoying is it was the best possible chance to do it and it wasn't a feeling of England gave everything but Italy edged it, because everything was left on the bench far too long.

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enigmatic

enigmatic

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1 hour ago, Barry Cartman said:

Maguire with some guts to step up with that record 

Must admit I wasn't happy when he stepped up, especially because I think he'd been overhitting passes in a trying too hard way all game. Best pen of the tournament though

Looking at that record, you can't really say there's a queue of players that should have been taking them. I think the Stones penalty was a Panenka in pre-season, and the Shaw penalty was rubbish

 

23 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Seeing the pics of Saka post game are breaking my heart. Hope the guy bounces back, and has a good support network. Footballing community in this country really can't afford to let him down. 

I'm imagining Gareth's words being "it'll all seem worth it when you're England manager in 30 years time" :D 

 

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brett.spurs

brett.spurs

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2 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

Just remember that if this tournament were held in 2020 we probably would have had Eric Dier, Jesse Lingard and Callum Wilson in the squad instead of some of the names we had that only came good last season.

Could've done with Dier in the shootout tbf.

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VP.

VP.

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4 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

Just remember that if this tournament were held in 2020 we probably would have had Eric Dier, Jesse Lingard and Callum Wilson in the squad instead of some of the names we had that only came good last season.

So we still wouldn't have won it.

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Heartwork

Heartwork

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5 minutes ago, VP. said:

So we still wouldn't have won it.

No but might not have even reached the final.

I'm not going to make any guesses for who'll be in the 2022 squad because so much can change in 18 months and there are players we might not even know that could suddenly turn into world beaters. We should keep an eye on Dortmund's young English players and how Omar Richards does at Bayern, for example (because Bayern have clearly seen something in him that the rest of us haven't and it would be great if they can bring that out of him). I'm hoping Lille give Angel Gomes his chance to show what he can do after a decent season on loan in Portugal. This time next year we could move from Phillips and Rice to debating about how a midfield duo of Bellingham and Garner would work.

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Smallen

Smallen

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Have said it before but I hope one of the elite clubs buy Rice and play him at centre half. It’s the position best suited to his abilities by far. Him playing in midfield for West Ham reeks of a team playing their best player further forward because they need to.

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craigcwwe

craigcwwe

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Well that was absolutely gutting and a typical English heartbreaking way to lose. It just had to be penalties didn't it? :( Why, just why? Our penalty history is just bizarre. 2 wins from 9. Why do we struggle so much?

Does feel like an opportunity lost last night. Everything was aligned for us. At Wembley, took the lead less than two minutes in, general play was good for the first 20 minutes, we looked a threat when we attacked, always had a player or two in space in midfield or out wide and then we just...stopped playing. Dropped deeper and deeper and invited pressure from minute 20 til the end. **** sake. So frustrating. We didn't need to do that. We have a better squad than they do. I can understand if we dropped off with 20 minutes to go but not with 70 left on the clock. I remember thinking about 35 minutes in that we're going to lose this because we can't get on the ball, they are bound to get a chance and if they score we've got to switch on and come out and that's a very hard thing to do in football when you've powered down like we had. 

Southgate has done some amazing work in his time as England manager, really he has but he's got to take a lot of the blame for last night. Way too negative and cautious, even before a ball was kicked by going with the 343 formation when there was no need. Then by allowing us to defend so deep that Kane was 25 yards off the half way line and we had no outball when we did get it in our defensive third, he did nothing to encourage our players to be braver and play 15 yards higher up. Leaving the subs as long as he did is a Southgate trademark. So utterly afraid of trying to win the game and taking off any of his three favourites until the last second. Bringing on Rashford and Sancho at the end of ET for the spot kicks was poor. They should've been on at HT in ET at the latest. Leaving Sterling on when he wasn't taking one of the first five pens was poor too. 

It was always going to be a tough ask to win it on penalties. I was struggling to name 5 takers, only certainties were Kane and Rashford. I assumed Sancho was going to take one as he came on so late. Thought Shaw and Grealish would've been two of the five but Saka just did not register when it came to picking five takers. 

Poor again from Southgate here. Putting Saka as 5th pen taker was an incredibly risky and bold call and it backfired in the absolute worst way possible. Southgate should've known better. That was really poor and given his own history on penalties I'd have expected better from the manager here. If these were what Southgate deemed his five best takers I'd have certainly had them in a different order. Something like Kane-Saka-Maguire-Sancho-Rashford.

We'll likely not get a better chance of winning something for a long time now. I know we said that after the WC in 2018 but to get two back to back runs like we've had is rare and we've genuinely shot ourselves in the foot both times. Took the lead in both games within the opening five minutes, went into ultra defensive mode, conceded and lost. Should've gone two up against Croatia and shouldn't have gone as defensive as we did as early as we did last night. We had the early goal, the momentum and the home crowd right behind us last night and they couldn't cope with us the first 20 minutes and we just let them off the hook and let them play their game. 

Fair play to any of you that still have much belief after that going forward. Lesson wasn't learnt from three years ago with Southgate. We'll continue to have the most/one of the most stacked squads around for the next 10 years but it's England. Say no more. 

 

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Heartwork

Heartwork

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Meanwhile the "comedian" Andrew Lawrence has been a racist knob on Twitter, leading to him deleting his account and every venue of his upcoming tour cancelling his shows. There are easier ways to retire from comedy than outing yourself as a scumbag.

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Yuko

Yuko

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England needs to invite more depth at central midfield. 

 

That's the one thing that wins you tournaments. Having high quality players is obviously a factor, but having many that occupy the same positions isn't helping much. 

 

There was Phillips and Rice who have had a great tournament, Henderson who is a decent choice, Bellingham who is raw. But you need more. Who are the other guys? Maybe both Mount and Foden could be slotted there in a 3 man system.

Look at the past Euro and World champions, even Greece of 2004, the main strength of these teams aside from tactical awareness at the back, was the force of the center of their midfield. It allows you to control the game and that was what England was lacking in the last two encounters. Versus Denmark they turned the game around after the Danes made their subs and loat the midfield after 65-70 minutes. Versus Italy they had no chance.

You can shout that Sancho and Rashford or others need to play more, but that means that Sterling and Kane have to go off. I don't think Southgate had the guts to do that. The midfield is too thin for that to be a possibility and conceding is always a risk, so guarding the back line felt like a higher priority for the manager. I don't think England could have reached the final and make it a tough game without this approach. 

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Baptista_8

Baptista_8

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20 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

Well that was absolutely gutting and a typical English heartbreaking way to lose. It just had to be penalties didn't it? :( Why, just why? Our penalty history is just bizarre. 2 wins from 9. Why do we struggle so much?

Does feel like an opportunity lost last night. Everything was aligned for us. At Wembley, took the lead less than two minutes in, general play was good for the first 20 minutes, we looked a threat when we attacked, always had a player or two in space in midfield or out wide and then we just...stopped playing. Dropped deeper and deeper and invited pressure from minute 20 til the end. **** sake. So frustrating. We didn't need to do that. We have a better squad than they do. I can understand if we dropped off with 20 minutes to go but not with 70 left on the clock. I remember thinking about 35 minutes in that we're going to lose this because we can't get on the ball, they are bound to get a chance and if they score we've got to switch on and come out and that's a very hard thing to do in football when you've powered down like we had. 

Southgate has done some amazing work in his time as England manager, really he has but he's got to take a lot of the blame for last night. Way too negative and cautious, even before a ball was kicked by going with the 343 formation when there was no need. Then by allowing us to defend so deep that Kane was 25 yards off the half way line and we had no outball when we did get it in our defensive third, he did nothing to encourage our players to be braver and play 15 yards higher up. Leaving the subs as long as he did is a Southgate trademark. So utterly afraid of trying to win the game and taking off any of his three favourites until the last second. Bringing on Rashford and Sancho at the end of ET for the spot kicks was poor. They should've been on at HT in ET at the latest. Leaving Sterling on when he wasn't taking one of the first five pens was poor too. 

It was always going to be a tough ask to win it on penalties. I was struggling to name 5 takers, only certainties were Kane and Rashford. I assumed Sancho was going to take one as he came on so late. Thought Shaw and Grealish would've been one of the five but Saka just did not register when it came to picking five takers. 

Poor again from Southgate here. Putting Saka as 5th pen taker was an incredible risky and bold call and it backfired in the absolute worst way possible. Southgate should've known better. That was really poor and given his own history on penalties I'd have expected better from the manager here. If these were what Southgate deemed his five best takers I'd have certainly had them in a different order. Something like Kane-Saka-Maguire-Sancho-Rashford.

We'll likely not get a better chance of winning something for a long time now. I know we said that after the WC in 2018 but to get two back to back runs like we've had is rare and we've genuinely shot ourselves in the foot both times. Took the lead in both games within the opening five minutes, went into ultra defensive mode, conceded and lost. Should've gone two up against Croatia and shouldn't have gone as defensive as we did as early as we did last night. We had the early goal, the momentum and the home crowd right behind us last night and they couldn't cope with us the first 20 minutes and we just let them off the hook and let them play their game. 

Fair play to any of you that still have much belief after that going forward. Lesson wasn't learnt from three years ago with Southgate. We'll continue to have the most/one of the most stacked squads around for the next 10 years but it's England. Say no more.

Got no reactions left but agree with a lot of this 👍

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skybluedave

skybluedave

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Yeah our centre midfield is a problem position when playing elite teams. We knew this going into tournament and it was debated (on here) whether to try Mount deeper with a Foden or Grealish in there alongside Mount and Rice. 

I think Mount is capable of playing deeper, when I watch him I kinda feel like that is where he will end up but if anything he's going the opposite way. For Chelsea he's playing left wing. A lot depends on Bellingham too. Hopefully this year he really kicks on with more CL football. 

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Heartwork

Heartwork

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Posted
9 minutes ago, Yuko said:

England needs to invite more depth at central midfield. 

 

That's the one thing that wins you tournaments. Having high quality players is obviously a factor, but having many that occupy the same positions isn't helping much. 

 

There was Phillips and Rice who have had a great tournament, Henderson who is a decent choice, Bellingham who is raw. But you need more. Who are the other guys? Maybe both Mount and Foden could be slotted there in a 3 man system.

Look at the past Euro and World champions, even Greece of 2004, the main strength of these teams aside from tactical awareness at the back, was the force of the center of their midfield. It allows you to control the game and that was what England was lacking in the last two encounters. Versus Denmark they turned the game around after the Danes made their subs and loat the midfield after 65-70 minutes. Versus Italy they had no chance.

You can shout that Sancho and Rashford or others need to play more, but that means that Sterling and Kane have to go off. I don't think Southgate had the guts to do that. The midfield is too thin for that to be a possibility and conceding is always a risk, so guarding the back line felt like a higher priority for the manager. I don't think England could have reached the final and make it a tough game without this approach. 

We'll have to see what the next year provides for youngsters in midfield. Going to be a big season for Ollie Skipp and James Garner, for example. Both now out of their teens and need to start pushing for opportunities at the top level.

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