Why does SI underestimate sound ?

[pukfm]

SOUND AND ENTERTAINMENT

I don't want to compare games with movies - but both are entertainment ! And what plays a HUGE part of entertainment ??

Christopher Nolan (movie director) is the king of movies these years. He hasn't made a movie, which is rated under 8 in IMDB.com ! Some of his movies:

Memento: 8,5 - The Dark Knight: 9,0 - The Prestige: 8,8 - Inception: 8,5

According to Nolan, the secret behind good movies is "Sound! The most underestimated part of movies is SOUND! Sound is 50% of movies !". 

So according to Nolan, 50% of focus should be given to sound! I don't want SI to be focusing 50% to sound, but my point is how much sounds plays a role in good entertainment !

SOUND IN FM

If i'm not wrong, the sounds in FM has been the same since FM 2005 ??? I mute the sounds in matches, because i don't like it, it's so boring !

I don't want music in the background or sound effects every time you click on a button! But the sounds in matches/crowds should be LOT BETTER and VARIATED ! That will make the matches lot more intens and interesting and ENTERTAINING !!

 

[enigmatic]

I have my sound turned off, and I expect I'm not alone in this...

[ryan045]

They could really do with adding commentary but of course that would take A LOT of time, money and game space up. I did believe they tried this back in an older version of FM. On the crowd sound effects I'm not sure how they can improve on that. Could you offer any ideas how they could improve?

[forameuss]

"I don't want to compare games with movies"

*compares games with movies to a ridiculous degree*

It's been brought up before, and a lot of people wouldn't play with sound even if it was improved.  I'm sure I'm not alone in having FM on and in the background while I'm doing other things, sometimes with other people in the room.  I can honestly say that even if they got Hans Zimmer in to re-score the entire game, I would never be in a situation where I would do anything other than untick the sound box as my first action with a new FM title.

As a side note, not that it matters, but where did he say that sound is the secret behind good movies?

[forameuss]

2 minutes ago, ryan045 said:

They could really do with adding commentary but of course that would take A LOT of time, money and game space up. I did believe they tried this back in an older version of FM. On the crowd sound effects I'm not sure how they can improve on that. Could you offer any ideas how they could improve?

On commentary, although I can see why some would like it, would it really be worth it?  The undisputed king of the sport genre is EA, and they have almost unlimited pots of money to throw at products.  Their commentary in FIFA is, for want of a better phrase, absolute guff.  Repetitive, heavily hackneyed to show off all the "context" they know, and generally only appealing to those with an extremely short attention span.  Madden is slightly better, but still pretty limited in script.  2K have a good stable of sports games, but have commentary even worse than anything EA can offer (He's putting his educated feet to good use - Jerry Lawler, every year).  Now what do you expect SI to do?  They're a small studio, already pretty stretched with what they can do.  Presumably they'd have to hire in and fund a professional sound recording team, maybe even some "personality" to read it.  If they're going to expand the team by digging into their pockets, I'd be really annoyed if they chose commentary as the thing to do that for to be honest.

[Harper]

That's what FM is missing! Need more John Williams introductory fanfares and the Hans Zimmer's BRAMMS and Shepard tones; 

[ryan045]

9 minutes ago, forameuss said:

On commentary, although I can see why some would like it, would it really be worth it?  The undisputed king of the sport genre is EA, and they have almost unlimited pots of money to throw at products.  Their commentary in FIFA is, for want of a better phrase, absolute guff.  Repetitive, heavily hackneyed to show off all the "context" they know, and generally only appealing to those with an extremely short attention span.  Madden is slightly better, but still pretty limited in script.  2K have a good stable of sports games, but have commentary even worse than anything EA can offer (He's putting his educated feet to good use - Jerry Lawler, every year).  Now what do you expect SI to do?  They're a small studio, already pretty stretched with what they can do.  Presumably they'd have to hire in and fund a professional sound recording team, maybe even some "personality" to read it.  If they're going to expand the team by digging into their pockets, I'd be really annoyed if they chose commentary as the thing to do that for to be honest.

In my post I did mention the things your getting at and I completely understand that SI and EA are on a different level. Although it would be nice to give it a try in the modern era. An investment into something like game commentary could attract a younger audience. Something that FM has struggled with over the years. I would like to see them give it a go sometime soon.

[Tony Wright 747]

I certainly don't want commentary.  I do play with the sound on as I think it does add a little to the atmosphere of a match, but it is an area that could do with some improvement

[Fortune66]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I certainly don't want commentary.  I do play with the sound on as I think it does add a little to the atmosphere of a match, but it is an area that could do with some improvement

Me to. I like to hear the crowd buzz and to hear the foot connect with the ball. I dont think adding players shouting at each other would be a good idea since it would give the atmosphere of a smaller match if they´re able to be louder then the crowd. And adding commentary, as others have said allready, it would only get repetitive and boring after awhile, not worth it.

[Spurs08]

Another huge problem with commentary: most people play with the match speed (well) above real-time. Therefore it would either need to somehow adapt to this by reading fewer lines, as well as making them shorter and getting cut-off more often, or by reading them at a hilariously fast speed.

[santy001]

Haven't had the sound on FM for over 10 years I'd say now, and it's not a game I would play with sound on because as others have said, FM tends to be happening at the same time as other stuff.

[BorussiaDortmund]

There was a manager game in germany the community made chants for everything like the goal music of players, the music of clubs at the moment they enters the stadium. Also the champions-league sounds etc. Was easy to use, the community made it to something very great. I wish fm does alot more entertainment for the game. Lesser excel, more game. Simple.

[Goosewinkle]

I'd be happy if they improved the crowd noise.  All they have is one sample of 20,000 people even if you're playing semi pro ball in front of a hundred fans.  It's a bit absurd...

I agree that commentary would be a herculean effort, and it doesn't really make sense anyway.  Why would we as managers on the touchline be hearing commentary?

[mibsweden]

To me FM is more a simulation than a game. The entertainment in FM lies in the simulation aspect.

[HUNT3R]

FM has sound?

[phnompenhandy]

7 hours ago, santy001 said:

Haven't had the sound on FM for over 10 years I'd say now, and it's not a game I would play with sound on because as others have said, FM tends to be happening at the same time as other stuff.

Maybe for a lot of us that's BECAUSE FM neglects sound!

 

I'd only want sound for the ME experience; my own music is fine for the rest.

Someone asked about how background sounds can be improved - there's been a couple of amateur efforts up in the editors' forum that have done  decent job of adding chants etc. If SI did a professionlised version it would be highly welcome.

A fan has done commentary also - it has potential but is too repetitive due to its small scale. I remember the commentary of Sensi World of Soccer back in the last millennium before I got into CM - it was wonderful. It avoided mentioning players' names, which is maybe the biggest obstacle, but had thousands of commentary lines. Again, if SI put in the resources to doing it well, it would be a marvellous addition to the FM experience.

 

[SideLineBiscuit]

It would be great to get an overhaul of the ME sounds into something more interesting with better crowd sounds/chants etc. I`ve wanted this for years but I understand why SI dont want to use much time on this given a large part of the player base dont use them

[Federico]

More variety on match sounds have been asked for years. There's a limitation about chants themeselves, due to chant copyrights. The most of chants are just renditions of copyrighted songs and that's an obstacle as much as reproducing stadiums and other stuff.

I play with sound and I'd like to hear more, it's part of the sport and part of the game. I personally would be happy to see (or hear!) this area of the game vastly improved.

[MrPompey]

How do chants have copyrights (PS dont say these words in a song or my lawyers will have you )?

Who owns:

"who's winker in the black"

"who are ya, who are ya"

" whoooooaaaahhhhhhhh you're ship, aahhhhhhhhhhhh"

Must be plenty of chants that are sung at every ground. However given its a global game you can see why its a problem with actual words. That said... clapping at players going off when subbed. Add

The general crowd noises have plenty of room for improvement and could be improved. If there is not much variation then it will lose its appeal when it gets repeatative. Who always watches managers shake hands before the kick off? After the first season I bet you skip it

The key question I expect is what doesn't get enhance d/ looked at as a result

 

[themadsheep2001]

The comparison to movies is silly, but the ambient noise could definitely be improved. Not sure there is a huge amount to be gained from commentary, and sadly chants would face all sorts of legal issues. But certainly it would be good to improve ambient sound. 

That said, I still wouldn't have the sound on anyway 

[Dave C]

Sound could undoubtedly improve but to use the OP's analogy it's less than 1% of what makes the game. You can play FM muted and lose basically nothing from the experience. So it's not worth the resource.

Commentary is a terrible idea if you apply just five minutes logical thought. Impossible to execute to the requisite level, so it must be left well alone. I'm old enough to remember the game that did try it, and there's a reason it remains a one-off.

[Cougar2010]

I always use sound and I think it does add something to the matches, especially when you are playing with longer highlights where the games ebb & flow.

 

Definite no to commentary though but I would like to see the general stadiums noise have more variety/volume.

[BorussiaDortmund]

6 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

 and sadly chants would face all sorts of legal issues.

Like all of the community patches, pictures ? Cant be the point. SI only needs to make it possible for us to creat this chants. Other games did it also........

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, BorussiaDortmund said:

Like all of the community patches, pictures ? Cant be the point. SI only needs to make it possible for us to creat this chants. Other games did it also........

SI don't make the pictures though. The community do. This difference is very important.

Whether its enough to simply make it moddable legally is a question only SI can answer

[michaeltmurrayuk]

Some of the older versions did include various chants, though they seem to have been removed at some point so I'm guessing it wasn't worth the effort it took to create them, though the community has produced a few sound packs over the years should be some threads in the Editors forum with them in.

And as other people have said audio commentary won't really work as it is repetitive, you need to sync it with the game speed and then you have the problem of pronouncing all of the team and player names (and regen names) of which there are a whole lot more of in FM than FIFA and SI have a lot less money than EA. You then have the legal issues, as SI don't have the Premier League license they may not even be able to speak the prem team names or players, which limits you to licensed leagues only.

Same thing with crowd noises it's no doubt expensive and time consuming to record enough chants to make it worthwhile and it's not exactly a feature that is going to push sales. You also cannot just go to matches and record the chants there as there would be legal and licensing issues, you'd also need to ensure that all chants are family friendly. (You also have the problem of SI being sued if a club/player didn't like one of the included chants).

[SideLineBiscuit]

Is it not possbile to create "fake" chants that are not recorded at a live football match, and therefore surpassing legal issues? I mean with all the technology we have with sound creation surly this would be possible

[BorussiaDortmund]

2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

SI don't make the pictures though. The community do. This difference is very important.

Whether its enough to simply make it moddable legally is a question only SI can answer

Maybe you dont get my point:

A option or something to put own sounds into.....Even the worsest manager of ea had this. Its same kind of community work like for pics or databases and so on.

[themadsheep2001]

8 minutes ago, BorussiaDortmund said:

Maybe you dont get my point:

A option or something to put own sounds into.....Even the worsest manager of ea had this. Its same kind of community work like for pics or databases and so on.

Even that has to pass legal. If it doesn't pass legal, it doesn't happen 

[noobish abbz]

sound muted. listen to music or watch something else in a different tab on other screen

[BorussiaDortmund]

2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Even that has to pass legal. If it doesn't pass legal, it doesn't happen 

You wont get it ? I can create my own chant, even if i record myself. Where is the difference to all the db changes by fans ? SI let them do also and it isnt legal for the creators of it, not SI. German language patches, league fixes. Pictures of players, a endless list. Its not the problem of SI if people misstaking it. Same for sounds.........

[themadsheep2001]

8 hours ago, BorussiaDortmund said:

You wont get it ? I can create my own chant, even if i record myself. Where is the difference to all the db changes by fans ? SI let them do also and it isnt legal for the creators of it, not SI. German language patches, league fixes. Pictures of players, a endless list. Its not the problem of SI if people misstaking it. Same for sounds.........

Allowing you moddable access is still something that has to pass legal 

[Spurs08]

14 hours ago, SideLineBiscuit said:

Is it not possbile to create "fake" chants that are not recorded at a live football match, and therefore surpassing legal issues? I mean with all the technology we have with sound creation surly this would be possible

It still runs into the same legal issues, just like you couldn't "recreate" a One Direction single with your mates and sell it for profit. Once you took out anything with legal problems (e.g. the variations of Glory Glory Hallelujah, Que Sera Sera, anything various clubs released as part of Cup Final singles in the 70s/80s), anything with foul language or otherwise objectionable (e.g. the Yid chants at Tottenham), anything about specific players/staff/potentially stadiums, you're going to be left with very little variety indeed. 

[borivoje213]

13 hours ago, noobish abbz said:

sound muted. listen to music or watch something else in a different tab on other screen

Yep, I used to watch either Goal: The Dream Begins or The Damned United to keep me in the mood. 

[michaeltmurrayuk]

22 hours ago, BorussiaDortmund said:

Maybe you dont get my point:

A option or something to put own sounds into.....Even the worsest manager of ea had this. Its same kind of community work like for pics or databases and so on.

You can already add your own sounds to the game (and have been able to do so for years) - have a look at the 'match_sounds' file located in the \steamapps\common\Football Manager 2017\data\events\ folder of where you installed FM. (Should also be a thread someone in the editors forum, though not sure when it was last updated).

[Sankalan]

15 hours ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

You can already add your own sounds to the game (and have been able to do so for years) - have a look at the 'match_sounds' file located in the \steamapps\common\Football Manager 2017\data\events\ folder of where you installed FM. (Should also be a thread someone in the editors forum, though not sure when it was last updated).

there are several limitations there:limited no of parallel tracks, no events for player names, limitation to maximum lines etc. which can be(easily) removed by SI.

[Neil Brock]

Personally I think I'd always be against commentary 'sound' for FM, but definitely would love to see us improve the crowd and in-game sounds. 

Although as was said above, there does appear to be a large chunk of users of wouldn't use sound either way - they either have FM in the background when say watching TV etc, or prefer to play it with their own soundtrack. 

[Colorado]

Commentary wouldn't work but I would love the crowd to be realistic and more immersive. Different style crowd effects for different countries and different attendances etc

[Svenc]

What would be unique for a game as FM in particular was if the crowd sounds were more interactive and responsive to what managers have actually an influence over, which is the general ebbs and flows. I think in some ways that is in, but it seems fairly rudimentary. Home crowds starting too boo when the away side starts dawdling and wasting time, the spoilt crowd of a big club not settling for that 1-0 and letting their displeasure be heard when the manager insists this were the way to go, long-term maybe even different cultures, e.g. the crowd at Camp Nou booing any long ball merchants, whilst vice versa the locals at Stoke-on-Trent getting increasingly fed-up by their manager insisting their side to be Stokelona. However the effort  put into this likely depend on demand and resources. Unless crowd reactions would be some linked to player motivation, and crowds coded to have their own expectations for a match as per result and football, this would be seen as something more cosmetical, so less likely to have big priorities. Could still be enjoyable to annoy the **** out of peeps demanding your head on a stoke stake.

[westy8chimp]

17 minutes ago, Svenc said:

What would be unique for a game as FM in particular was if the crowd sounds were more interactive and responsive to what managers have actually an influence over, which is the general ebbs and flows. Home crowds starting too boo when the  away side starts dawdling and wasting time, long-term maybe even different cultures, e.g. the crowd at Camp Nou booing any long ball merchants, whilst vice versa the locals at Stoke-on-Trent getting increasingly fed-up by their manager insisting their side to be Stokelona. However the effort  put into this likely depend on demand and resources. Unless crowd reactions would be some linked to player motivation, this would be seen as something more cosmetical, so less likely to have big priorities. Could still be enjoyable to annoy the **** out of peeps demanding your head on a stoke stake.

Good in theory... but would only be viable in a normal - low speed on full match for it to make sense. On full speed, key only it would be like a constant boo-cheer muffle with no discernible way of attributing the boo to a particular player.

As others have said... good thing about FM is it's a good background game whilst watching TV. And no matter how much effort SI put into the sound... a huge number of us still wouldn't use it.

Weigh up cost & time of enhancing the current (or implementing a new) sound solution vs how many customers play in slow speed and would want to play with the sound on?

Disband it altogether might be a preference... because there is no benefit to the current half-arsed approach that annoys the players who do want sound.

[MBarbaric]

I don't understand arguments such as "people have TV in background so wouldn't use it" or "does FM even have sound"... Lots of people don't use press conferences or play friendly matches but they are still in the game and rightly so.

The real question is, is it viable to put an effort into improving something. Judging by SI's efforts in this regard in recent decade (or two) the answer is obvious. Personally, I'd love to hear improvements in this part of the game since I am in minority that always used sounds. It would really be cool to hear the crowd whistle the player they don't like, whistle your team because they think you are rubish..., have this tied in with press conferences and you have little stories that make football narratives and improved immersion.

 

 

[enigmatic]

Stumbled across this thread whilst looking for something else, and it sounds like something the people in this thread that want more sound might like (at least those of it who don't already have it and/or weren't directly or indirectly responsible for its existence :D) 

 

[Wells]

Sound?

 I will be concerned more about being improved tactical and AI squad building than sounds.

[JR866Gunner]

Ive not had sound on for a long time. I reinstall the game a few weeks back and only last night unmuted my laptop volume to find sounds in game were ticked! tried it for all of one half of football but its a little disjointed really.

 

Anyone remember the premier manager days on the playstation? That used to have some form of match of the day highlights recap at the end of the game. I used to like this but I don't know how easy it would be to implement.... I recall it was commentated by a famous football commentator.

[Smurf]

When I'm managing Arsenal I turn the sound off. It's just like really being there! Kudos to FM for the realism!

[borivoje213]

On 07/08/2017 at 12:38, Neil Brock said:

"have FM in the background when say watching TV etc" 

fm in background? you make me sick!

"have sound turned off so they can listen to less important things in the background such as say the birth of their first child, while playing fm"

[grade]

I in the camp that even if SI improve the sounds of the game, I would turn off and listen to music.

Got use to play like that, it will be hard to break that habit.

As other users have said in these forums many times before. I prefer the resources go to something else.

[warpedpolecat]

Wifey would get dead annoyed if I played with the sound on lol.

I hate the idea of commentary personally as much as I hate the idea of the much mentioned "chairman mode" or wanting to buy stuff with your earnings! 

[Chinook2000]

FM's played while watching telly listening to Football on the Radio, there are few games that allow you to continue without pausing and do more than one thing at a time even trips to the bog can be made.

There is definitely an avenue here just think ''Everywhere you go'' could be generated to represent every English Club just like IRL. When I play as Arsenal I turn the sound off all devices and sit in total silence to reflect reality. 

[MrPompey]

Commentary would be a waste of investment and would multiply if you include languages

Chants - legal reasons

Crowd noises / clapping / cheering / booing - this for me is the way to ago.

 

Some suggestions

Derby / Rival matches - increased noise, more booing / clapping etc

Big Games such as finals etc = more noise. 

Big attendances = more noise

Subbed players with performance rating above x.x gets clapped when coming off

Clubs favourite players when coming on get cheered extra / or clapping

Variation in crowed noises from shots hitting woodwork, near misses, bad tackles, yellow and red cards, players hated by other clubs

More noise for home side scoring, slightly subdued noise for away side scoring

These in my opinion are small enhancements to the existing sounds so minimal time/effort investment but with enhanced game play experience. Accepting those that switch off the sound continue to do so those that dont like myself find it adds to the game but it does need some work. Evolution instead of revolution is often the way to go  

 

 

 

[b28937]

It should be noted the OP said nothing about commentary or chants.  He said the in-match crowd noise is very dated and boring and could and should be improved.  He is right.  

SI has focused on improving 3D graphics, switching to roles and duties, etc., etc., doing a variety of things to make the game more realistic and enjoyable to play.  But why implement such changes if "a large chunk of users" don't want them?  Bring back the sliders.  Stop working on this 3D nonsense; a large chunk of users only want top down 2D view.  

Holding back on addressing obvious shortcomings or making improvements, because the mute and watch tv crowd doesn't want it, is a poor strategy.  The goal should be making the best game possible, not making a game that will not disturb the game player while he's watching tv.