QF4: England vs France, 7PM GMT, Al Bayt Stadium

[JD nawrat]

Just now, SouthCoastRed said:

If only we’d taken JWP, he’d have scored the penalty and the free kick tbh

But then we'd have to listen to MLG bang on about how good JWP is and how he's England's best player. 

This outcome was preferable, I'm sure you and every Englishman will agree. 

[JD nawrat]

Just now, Baptista_8 said:

Gerrard?! *shudder*

Trying to convince FIFA that Philippe Coutinho is actually English

[SouthCoastRed]

Just now, JD nawrat said:

But then we'd have to listen to MLG bang on about how good JWP is and how he's England's best player. 

This outcome was preferable, I'm sure you and every Englishman will agree. 

You raise a fair point 

[TM]

thought England edged the match, just unlucky that Kane picked this point to miss a penalty. Thought England got the wrong side of the ref in situations which tipped the game in France's balance

France looked ordinary attack wise but their goals were created well, Tchouameni's finish was superb, cross from Griezmann for the 2nd was pin point and Giroud's header was what you'd expect from him.  No shame in losing to a team who potentially could do back-to-back World Cup wins, first time since 1962 that would be

[Rebs]

9 minutes ago, Constantine said:

My money was on @Rebs 

I was close tbf 😁😁😁

[Weezer]

3 minutes ago, SouthCoastRed said:

If only we’d taken JWP, he’d have scored the penalty and the free kick tbh

If FM is to be believed he’d have won the whole thing single handed.

[Constantine]

5 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Because there's a hole in the middle.

Rice is barely in the picture whenever England attack with the ball, Bellingham attacks space and isn't a playmaker, Henderson probably being the best performer tonight.

 

Griezmann was probably the best player on the pitch today, alongside Saka. Was everywhere and always at the right time. Foden could easily play like that if Southgate wasn't so dense.

Oh, I know, I was making not so subtle jab at Southgate. I mean, with all that talent in midfield you have available, you're allowing this to happen. 

And Griezmann is unironically having a great tournament, he's been immense both tonight and against Poland 

[Lermon]

Brendan Rodgers is not a terrible replacement. (even if he's Northern-Irish)

[PaulHartman71]

3 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

How do we know Tuchel would be any good at international management?

We don’t, but I think he’s a very good manager tactically. I think for the next Euros and World Cup he’s the only available and realistically candidate out there who would be worth a gamble on. No guarantee he takes it of course, he may not want to manage another country, but if he is interested I think he’s the only option worth exploring. 

Dyche would be my choice out of the English candidates (assuming Howe and Potter wouldn’t leave their clubs ATM) but I really feel like Tuchel could get more out of players like Bellingham, Rice, Saka, Foden etc than Dyche could. 

[Baptista_8]

1 minute ago, Lermon said:

Brendan Rodgers is not a terrible replacement. (even if he's Northern-Irish)

He is decent but he wouldn't win us anything.

[TM]

2 minutes ago, Constantine said:

And Griezmann is unironically having a great tournament, he's been immense both tonight and against Poland 

does he play that role for Atletico Madrid? almost feels as if it's his calling, despite the fact he was top scorer at Euro 2016

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Just now, PaulHartman71 said:

We don’t, but I think he’s a very good manager tactically.

Is he a good man manager? Could he create the Team England spirit which has transformed how players view playing for the national team? Tactically I thought Southgate was good tonight, he's been good in most of the big matches he's been involved in.

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, TM said:

does he play that role for Atletico Madrid? almost feels as if it's his calling, despite the fact he was top scorer at Euro 2016

He's been playing the 29 minutes sub role until they sorted out his transfer.

It's kind of similar, he plays the secondary striker role in 4-4-2.

But secondary striker in Cholo's system means you have to press around like a maniac. His workrate is really underrated, probably the highest of all attacking midfielders.

[Smallen]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Is he a good man manager? Could he create the Team England spirit which has transformed how players view playing for the national team? Tactically I thought Southgate was good tonight, he's been good in most of the big matches he's been involved in.

We also wouldn’t be getting Tuchel for any longer than 2 years imo. Pointless exercise unless he actually won something.

He’s also not English which I know is a different debate but it’s kind of important imo.

[The_jagster]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Is he a good man manager? Could he create the Team England spirit which has transformed how players view playing for the national team? Tactically I thought Southgate was good tonight, he's been good in most of the big matches he's been involved in.

I have generally been quite critical of Southgate, but for this match you just accept another day and it goes in our favour imo. The Croatia and Italy games were more disappointing for me.

Keep Mbappe quiet, if a player scores from 25 yards and a striker beats Maguire to a header in the box you say "fair enough". But as a podcast I like put it, nobody ever says fair enough when it happens, do they?

[Coulthard's Jaw]

2 minutes ago, Smallen said:

We also wouldn’t be getting Tuchel for any longer than 2 years imo. Pointless exercise unless he actually won something.

He’s also not English which I know is a different debate but it’s kind of important imo.

We need some succession planning! I don't care about the manager being English debate, but if he does then the FA need to have someone in the system they can bring in to replace Gareth.

[Constantine]

1 minute ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Is he a good man manager? Could he create the Team England spirit which has transformed how players view playing for the national team? Tactically I thought Southgate was good tonight, he's been good in most of the big matches he's been involved in.

So, you guys just need to find Gareth his Peter Taylor. Let him keeps players spirit up while someone else properly sets this team up, actually manage during games, makes subs at the right time, etc...

[PaulHartman71]

5 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Is he a good man manager? Could he create the Team England spirit which has transformed how players view playing for the national team? Tactically I thought Southgate was good tonight, he's been good in most of the big matches he's been involved in.

I wouldn’t be rushing to sack or replace Southgate, but the vibe I got pre tournament was that he was looking to leave and cash in on his reputation for a good Premier League club job at the end of this cycle. 

For me if Southgate is thinking about leaving then if Tuchel would take it for the next Euros and World Cup you part ways mutually at a good point for Southgate and the FA. If it’s Southgate or Dyche, Gerrard, Lampard or  Rooney then you gas up Southgate and convince him to stay. 

[Citizen Sandman]

6 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

He's been playing the 29 minutes sub role until they sorted out his transfer.

It's kind of similar, he plays the secondary striker role in 4-4-2.

But secondary striker in Cholo's system means you have to press around like a maniac. His workrate is really underrated, probably the highest of all attacking midfielders.

Most pressures tonight 

[Bootador]

15 minutes ago, SouthCoastRed said:

If only we’d taken JWP, he’d have scored the penalty and the free kick tbh

TBF he could have done exactly what Henderson did as well (run around a bit) so it would have worked.

[enigmatic]

25 minutes ago, yann said:

France tried in 2016, but ultra defensive Portugal killed us in final. It's Portugal fault if we play like that.

tbh I can't remember your 2016 team that much, but you needed late winners against average teams so I'm guessing the attacking wasn't perfect. England fans would be so angry that you only got to the final and lost to the first decent team that wasn't Germany   

And as you say, Portugal were really boring but won anyway. You were very cautious today when you had the lead, but you will probably win the whole thing. You were quite cautious in the last World Cup you won. And the other one you won. Almost like international managers know more than England fans...

 

21 minutes ago, Smallen said:

Btw, anyone who thinks their FA should sack Southgate - you know they’d be hiring Gerrard to replace him right?  

Nah, we're so disgusted at Southgate for sometimes deploying a 3-5-2 we want Potter, or Tuchel  

Or if we're really averse to 3-5-2 we're unironically mentioning Dyche

(actually think Gerrard might be OK at managing England but then I rarely watched Villa)

 

 

[GunmaN1905]

10 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

I have generally been quite critical of Southgate, but for this match you just accept another day and it goes in our favour imo. The Croatia and Italy games were more disappointing for me.

Keep Mbappe quiet, if a player scores from 25 yards and a striker beats Maguire to a header in the box you say "fair enough". But as a podcast I like put it, nobody ever says fair enough when it happens, do they?

Yeah, it's not the tactical setup, it's about how it lead to current tactical setup. With current situation of things, noone would've set up different.

But why did he insist on playing two very slow CBs, especially Maguire who's more or less ruined his career since the last tournament and been nothing short of horrible. It was too late to change over these few months, but he should've started with changes after the EURO.

You can say Pickford was always decent for England, but first goal is entirely on him. His club form has been awful, but he's never been in danger of dropping.

Smaller nations that don't really have options stick to their players who don't feature for club or are in horrible form because there's no other options, nations with such depth should never cling onto players completely out of form.

Then he subs Sterling on just because he was good unce upon a time. He's had a horrible season so far, he unfortunately had those personal issues and wasn't even with the team, then he's on in the most important match ahead of players who were there and already played great.

 

People always tend to stick everything about tactics into one category. But there are two things about coaches.

Preparing for the match and setting up the initial tactic is one thing, making adjustments during the match is another.

I'd say that Southgate's preparation for all 3 big matches he got eliminated in was spot on. But then as the match went on, the team starts fading and he fails to adapt or even do anything.

It was England's match for the taking, but he was just completely frozen and refused to do any subs, then you concede against the run of play and it's over.

There are quite a few coaches in football that should just be taken away from the bench as soon as the match starts. Set up your thing and go to the stands since you don't have the courage to adjust.

Inter's Inzaghi is a textbook example of this and it's just so frustrating to watch. Pre-planned sub on the minute.

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by GunmaN1905

[silentwars]

If Gerrard had stayed at Rangers, he'd probably of been top of the queue (presuming they'd remained successful under him)

[pearcey_90]

Just one team call up before summer, so will be interesting to see what the squad looks like for the June games against Malta/Macedonia. 

It’ll feel a quick turnaround to the Euros. 

[SouthCoastRed]

4 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

(actually think Gerrard might be OK at managing England but then I rarely watched Villa)

That’s you and Gerrard then tbh

[PaulHartman71]

5 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

tbh I can't remember your 2016 team that much, but you needed late winners against average teams so I'm guessing the attacking wasn't perfect. England fans would be so angry that you only got to the final and lost to the first decent team that wasn't Germany   

And as you say, Portugal were really boring but won anyway. You were very cautious today when you had the lead, but you will probably win the whole thing. You were quite cautious in the last World Cup you won. And the other one you won. Almost like international managers know more than England fans...

 

Nah, we're so disgusted at Southgate for sometimes deploying a 3-5-2 we want Potter, or Tuchel  

Or if we're really averse to 3-5-2 we're unironically mentioning Dyche

(actually think Gerrard might be OK at managing England but then I rarely watched Villa)

 

 

I’m not even sure I could watch an England side managed by Gerrard to be honest. So bad this season with Villa. 

[TM]

1 minute ago, silentwars said:

If Gerrard had stayed at Rangers, he'd probably of been top of the queue (presuming they'd remained successful under him)

nah, you'd change your mind when you watched the same system every week which wouldn't work with England (Villa fans will probably say the same)

don't think Maguire did anything wrong as people were expecting but I wonder if Southgate might give Tomori a shot at some point, he has the pace which would work with players like Walker and Stones

[Darren Moores Mum]

4 minutes ago, pearcey_90 said:

Just one team call up before summer, so will be interesting to see what the squad looks like for the June games against Malta/Macedonia. 

It’ll feel a quick turnaround to the Euros. 

We have Italy first and given how we played in the Nations League I'm not confident.

[PaulHartman71]

The main thing I would love to see explained either by Kane or Southgate one day is WTF is Kane’s role playing for England. 

For Spurs he’s consistently a really dangerous player, threat and creator, has a mad link up with Son and scores goals for fun.

For England half the time it feels like in the build up to an attack he’s playing left back or a Makelele/Kante. I assume it must be a tactical decision from Southgate or a combination of tactics and him being captain, but you look at Saka or Foden or Bellingham and wonder why Kane doesn’t have a devastating combination with them as he does with Son. 

I’m not saying he’s bad for England because he’s not, but he plays such a different role for England than he does for Tottenham and I don’t really get why either him or Southgate or both of them go for it. 

I feel like with the Tottenham Kane playing for England we’re a much more dangerous side going forward. 

[arenaross]

13 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

I wouldn’t be rushing to sack or replace Southgate, but the vibe I got pre tournament was that he was looking to leave and cash in on his reputation for a good Premier League club job at the end of this cycle. 

For me if Southgate is thinking about leaving then if Tuchel would take it for the next Euros and World Cup you part ways mutually at a good point for Southgate and the FA. If it’s Southgate or Dyche, Gerrard, Lampard or  Rooney then you gas up Southgate and convince him to stay. 

This is the weird thing about Southgate.

One of our most successful international managers, yet most PL clubs with any ambition would be fuming if they appointed him. 

[Toffle]

Well played England. You were the best team tonight.

 

 

[Lucas]

7 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

The main thing I would love to see explained either by Kane or Southgate one day is WTF is Kane’s role playing for England. 

 

More like a Deep Lying Forward creating space by drawing defenders out and allowing the wide players in. 

Worked very well this tournament, better in the past when it relied on Sterling so much. 

I'd rather we didn't play that way but our weakest spot is actually centre mid and unlocking defences from there which is why Kane drops so much because of what he offers creatively. 

Could try Foden or Grealish in the middle somewhere I guess. 

Yeah it's annoying seeing Harry drop into midfield but our weakest spot in the team is that third CM who can unlock defences. Henderson isn't going to do that, and Bellingham is a different sort of player.

Maybe it falls on Mount more, but then I don't know what Mount's role is when he plays. At least he won us a penalty though.

[PaulHartman71]

6 minutes ago, arenaross said:

This is the weird thing about Southgate.

One of our most successful international managers, yet most PL clubs with any ambition would be fuming if they appointed him. 

Yeah, not massively sure where he goes. Villa would’ve been the obvious one if Gerrard had of held on for longer and gone just before the tournament. 

Not sure Spurs would take him if Conte left now or towards end of season. 

Only other jobs I maybe see becoming available that would be a decent option for him before next season are Leicester, Everton and West Ham, but I think Moyes deserves time, Rodgers has got Leicester doing better lately and whilst Everton are a bit club they’ve been a ****ing shambles for years and not exactly a no brainer for Southgate really. 

[Darren Moores Mum]

8 minutes ago, arenaross said:

This is the weird thing about Southgate.

One of our most successful international managers, yet most PL clubs with any ambition would be fuming if they appointed him. 

I've said before but I can see him knocking about at a midtable Championship side before long. A proper Bristol City of an appointment.

 

 

No offence to Bristol City fans...

[Lucas]

Just now, ginnybob said:

I've said before but I can see him knocking about at a midtable Championship side before long. A proper Bristol City of an appointment.

 

 

No offence to Bristol City fans...

I could see Southgate being offered a different position at the FA, perhaps.

As for next England manager, can't say I'm enthused by the choices of English managers available. Howe or Potter would be top of my list but neither are available right now.

[XuluBak]

Not surprisingly, both managers held their side back at times. When France were going forward, trying to score, they looked in control. When they didn't, England did. There was a point after the first pen, where it seemed like the match was England's for the taking, just needed a sub or two, and they never came. Fully expected France to win after that stretch, once they regained their footing. Giroud wasted his first chance, didn't expect him to waste another. 

Upamecano was dreadful, especially in the first half. He owes Lloris big for bailing him out. No clue how/why he's starting over Saliba/Konate. Theo is completely wasted under Deschamps. 

Saka was fantastic. Unless he picked up a knock, subbing him off was criminally bad management. Thought Bellingham played great as well, until he lost his head. 

Will give Southgate credit for throwing multiple defenders at Mbappe, force someone else to try to beat you. Dembele was terrible, killing attack after attack with bad decisions. Griezmann, however, was up for it. Probably MotM. 

The subs after 2-1 were farcical. 

[enigmatic]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Yeah, it's not the tactical setup, it's about how it lead to current tactical setup. With current situation of things, noone would've set up different.

But why did he insist on playing two very slow CBs, especially Maguire who's more or less ruined his career since the last tournament and been nothing short of horrible. It was too late to change over these few months, but he should've started with changes after the EURO.

You can say Pickford was always decent for England, but first goal is entirely on him. His club form has been awful, but he's never been in danger of dropping.

But the two "very slow" CBs (Stones is not slow...) didn't have any trouble at all dealing with France's pace. You can't blame lack of pace for conceding a long ranger and a header by the slowest person on the pitch  . Would have loved to see Tomori given more of a chance, but we didn't lose that game because we lacked his speed off the mark.

And Pickford's in his best club form of his career. Horrible first goal to concede linked to his lack of reach, but fine afterwards, and it's not like we're looking at the game and thinking "Ramsdale would have saved everything"

Just say your line about penalties and bottling (and remember that Kane just saved someone else missing 40 minutes later..._) which was the actual reason we lost in a close game against a good side.

 

5 minutes ago, SouthCoastRed said:

That’s you and Gerrard then tbh

Mrs Gerrard rates him too. Probably

 

4 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

The main thing I would love to see explained either by Kane or Southgate one day is WTF is Kane’s role playing for England. 

For Spurs he’s consistently a really dangerous player, threat and creator, has a mad link up with Son and scores goals for fun.

For England half the time it feels like in the build up to an attack he’s playing left back or a Makelele/Kante. I assume it must be a tactical decision from Southgate or a combination of tactics and him being captain, but you look at Saka or Foden or Bellingham and wonder why Kane doesn’t have a devastating combination with them as he does with Son. 

I’m not saying he’s bad for England because he’s not, but he plays such a different role for England than he does for Tottenham and I don’t really get why either him or Southgate or both of them go for it. 

I feel like with the Tottenham Kane playing for England we’re a much more dangerous side going forward. 

Tottenham Kane comes deep in buildup play all the time, and only has player to share goalscoring threat with.

England Kane has 53 goals in 80 appearances, and this is the first tournament under Gareth he hasn't won or challenged for the golden boot, though he got three assists and should have had three goals...

[Pukey]

Big shame. Performance was decent enough overall. Oh well.

[Smallen]

Jude will win everything there is to win in the game

[GunmaN1905]

7 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

But the two "very slow" CBs (Stones is not slow...) didn't have any trouble at all dealing with France's pace. 

Didn't you? Committed third of the team to marking Mbappe, leaving you with way less firepower. You had to do so because CBs have no pace. I'm not talking just about this match.

You didn't bottle it as a team, it's just that Kane isn't that guy. Never was, never will be. You can talk about golden boots and all, but first show me his goals in big matches against top teams that weren't penalties. In FM terms, his finishing goes down by 5 points compared to club form.

Saka, Bellingham, Foden and others can be those guys, just have to get someone who will let them play and get rid of old players with weak mentalities. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by GunmaN1905

[Confused Clarity]

2 minutes ago, Smallen said:

Jude will win everything there is to win in the game

I posted this earlier.

1 hour ago, Confused Clarity said:

Bellingham will captain England one day.

Probably soon.

There were times when he looked like the biggest leader on the field. 

He's 19 years old FFS.

[aggressive minor]

9 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Didn't you? Committed third of the team to marking Mbappe, leaving you with way less firepower. You had to do so because CBs have no pace. I'm not talking just about this match.

You didn't bottle it as a team, it's just that Kane isn't that guy. Never was, never will be. You can talk about golden boots and all, but first show me his goals in big matches against top teams that weren't penalties. In FM terms, his finishing goes down by 5 points compared to club form.

Saka, Bellingham, Foden and others can be those guys, just have to get someone who will let them play and get rid of old players with weak mentalities. 

I mean big goals for club? There’s **** loads.

Country- problem is we aren’t proactive enough, it’s not like he’s missing loads of chances 

[craigcwwe]

3 hours ago, AM99 said:

I love Southgate and by and large I think he's done a decent job this tournament but I think a new approach under a different manager could be a good thing. Saying that I would also be happy for him to continue for Euro 24.

I also don't really see any managers out there that are both A) and improvement on Southgate and B) realistic. Dyche maybe?

Nah. Nah man, tell me I've not just read a Sean Dyche for England suggestion. 

I'm logging off. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by craigcwwe

[enigmatic]

Just now, GunmaN1905 said:

Didn't you? Committed third of the team to marking Mbappe, leaving you with way less firepower. You had to do so because CBs have no pace. I'm not talking just about this match.

You didn't bottle it as a team, it's just that Kane isn't that guy. Never was, never will be. You can talk about golden boots and all, but first show me his goals in big matches against top teams that weren't penalties. In FM terms, his finishing goes down by 5 points compared to club form.

I mean, Kyle Walker played well but I'd struggle to consider him a third of our team  . Sacrificing an attacking right back to pocket the best player in the world currently seems like a decent deal to me. 

Kind of weird how we've gone from arguing Gareth doesn't know enough about tactics to disputing Kane's credentials as a striker though...

6 minutes ago, Smallen said:

Jude will win everything there is to win in the game

Not gonna lie, I know a lot of people thought Bellingham lost the plot towards the end when he started doing things like chuntering at the ref to try to get a red card as well as a penalty, but I loved the ballsiness of it. Also kept unexpectedly being the guy that popped up to stop Griezmann earlier in the game

[Lucas]

15 minutes ago, Smallen said:

Jude will win everything there is to win in the game

Honestly that clip makes me well up. Just outstanding humanity and maturity from the lad in this sort of situation.

[Smallen]

2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Not gonna lie, I know a lot of people thought Bellingham lost the plot towards the end when he started doing things like chuntering at the ref to try to get a red card as well as a penalty, but I loved the ballsiness of it. Also kept unexpectedly being the guy that popped up to stop Griezmann earlier in the game

Yeah, I don’t think he lost the plot at all. He just has the elite mentality that England players have lacked as long as I can remember.

And yeah, we played Walker 1 v 1. No idea how anyone thinks we put three players on him. We just didn’t let Walker past the halfway line.

[XuluBak]

3 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

I mean, Kyle Walker played well but I'd struggle to consider him a third of our team  . Sacrificing an attacking right back to pocket the best player in the world currently seems like a decent deal to me. 

He hardly "pocketed" him. Tbf, that clearly wasn't the plan. He was getting one or two helpers just about everytime Mbappe got the ball. The one time he didn't, Mbappe beat him to the byline and got a dangerous ball to Dembele...who was comfortably one of the worst players on the pitch. 

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

I mean, Kyle Walker played well but I'd struggle to consider him a third of our team  . Sacrificing an attacking right back to pocket the best player in the world currently seems like a decent deal to me. 

Yeah, it was definitely Walker who prevented the ball getting to Mbappe and he was definitely alone whenever Mbappe got the ball. Your entire plan was to funnel them to the right side because Dembele is wasteful. 

Quote

Kind of weird how we've gone from arguing Gareth doesn't know enough about tactics to disputing Kane's credentials as a striker though...

I said that his tactics were good, but adjustments during the match were non-existant.

Kane disputed his own credentials. The narrative of potentially the best #9 in the world was constantly showed down our throats and he never delivered when it mattered the most. Hard to win trophies with Tottenham, but for England he had his chances in every big match you got eliminated from and failed. Tactics aren't optimal, but chances were there.

 

As for Bellingham, already a top player and should be the next captain.

[git2thachoppa]

"Gareth's a nice guy, but he can't stop England choking when they come up against a decent side and get knocked out on penalties"

*England beat Colombia on penalties and reach World Cup semis*

"Yeah but he always fails when they come up against the big teams like Croatia... erm... yeah Croatia!"

*England beat Germany easy on way to 2nd ever major final in history*

"OK BUT HE ALWAYS FAILS WHEN THEY COME UP AGAINST THE BIG TEAMS THAT ARE ALSO STILL BIG BECAUSE IF WE BEAT THEM THEN THEY MUST'VE BEEN RUBBISH, AND HE PLAYS BORING DEFENSIVE FOOTBALL TOO ANYWAY"

*Loses 2-1 to defending champions and favourites after dominating*

"SEE I TOLD YOU"

Edited December 10, 2022 by git2thachoppa

[Rebs]

If we'd have had a ref who made the correct calls as the majority of the world saw it we'd have won. On top of that, we generally seem to have been seen as the better side in the match.

Gareth should stay, it's been a good tournament from us.