Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
Neil Brock

Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread

Recommended Posts

At this point I don't think there'll be any changes to the ME. Perhaps some minor adjustments. A major overhaul is not feasible in terms of time available and the confusion around having to fundamentally change a big part of the game now. I personally woudn't want that, although I also feel it's not an ideal ME (not having so many "game breaking" problems though). I hope all their focus goes to improve the attacking part of the game for the next one. That will be my main concern as my future purchase of the game will depend on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ll be buying this game even if they decided to scrap the ME entirely and go back to commentary only. Where the player descriptions were defender, midfielder or attacker only and the idea of a press conference or being able to talk to a player wasn’t even an idea!

The game is incredible. Although my personal perspective may be a little more amazed than some.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect if there wasn't going to be any ME changes with this final update then they'd have said. However if we do actually get a ME update this week then I expect it to be minor changes at this stage of the game's cycle. Still, better than no changes surely?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are the updates gonna release soon? If not, when is the deadline for data updates (transfer/management) change?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jimmious7 said:

I was kind of expecting 20.3.1 today since all transfer windows are basically closed by now... :D

Polish transfer window ends today. 

I wonder if players like Sturridge will be included in February patch? ( he is free player right now)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Il 1/3/2020 in 11:41 , Armistice ha scritto:

One of the reasons this game has gone to ****. This obsessive crusade to replicate real life stats.

But maybe this was true! 
 

The main problem is indeed that FM failed to replicate real life stats. Goals from corners, from cross, header etc..are too much  (about 10 to 30% more). Goal from striker are too low (from 15 to 60% if you look at Messi/Cr7).
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minuti fa, FlorianAlbert9 ha scritto:
  Il 1/3/2020 in 11:41 , Armistice ha scritto:

One of the reasons this game has gone to ****. This obsessive crusade to replicate real life stats.

there is a reason for an "obsessive crusade to replicate real life stats". In order to have the ME that is able to replicate football to a reasonable level, you will need at least most of the stats in line with real stats.

It isn't an aim, it is simply a consequence of good match engine.

A bad match engine, on the other hand, will have poor correlation between real and in game stats. It will also not produce logical football (hence small forwards scoring lots of headers).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

there is a reason for an "obsessive crusade to replicate real life stats". In order to have the ME that is able to replicate football to a reasonable level, you will need at least most of the stats in line with real stats.

It isn't an aim, it is simply a consequence of good match engine.

A bad match engine, on the other hand, will have poor correlation between real and in game stats. It will also not produce logical football (hence small forwards scoring lots of headers).

Absolutely right with on that first paragraph. Of course your definitions then also need to match that of real stat definitions, in this case OPTA. Easier said than done, but crucial. 

Incidentally you've got the same who say stats get in the way also complaining about too many headers etc. You can't pick and choose. Either stats matter, or they don't. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

Reality of the match engine and the development relies very much on the word balance. This crosses a huge amount of things, not just match stats and results, but how the games look and feel. 

There's a huge amount to consider - consider the match engine something like a Rubix's cube. You may be able to code something in such a way that from one perspective it looks absolutely perfect, but the rest of the cube will still remain jumbled. The match engine is like this in such a way that every change can have a knock-on elsewhere. Even the slightest tweak to a tiny area has repercussions.  

What our test teams (both internally and externally) do is constantly play matches leading to analysing and investigating the match across multiple aspects. The match stats is definitely a drive towards realism, but it isn't the sole component. I'd like to challenge someone to list all the statistic components of a football match that need to be aligned with real life to get a perfect match engine. Looking at the statistics we analyse using our match stats test I stopped counting how many categories there were at 150, and there were plenty more after that :D  And I'm sure there's many others we could include beyond this. 

Now to clarify this isn't trying to excuse anything, we have extremely high standards as a company for the work we do. Anyone has seen Miles after he's found a major bug can attest to that :D I'm just trying to give an indication to the scale of the task and the lengths we already go to in order to try and create something that is replicating something extremely complex in real life. Some issues we can make slight tweaks to and have a fair idea of the potential knock-ons, but large scale changes will always require a huge amount of time and analysis.  

Is there a need for an overhaul of the match engine then to make it easier to update it and so you are not having to manage these complex knock on effects?

To me it feels like the match engine came from an era where the game was extremely simple but now has huge issues because more and more complexity has been thrown at it with the introduction of the lines of engagement and other things.

If SI could either give a timeline for fixes in the game or at least a timeline for overhauling this system then alot of people would stop spamming the thread and come back at a later date.

The ambiguity is what is causing alot of head ache for a lot of people and causing them to keep checking this thread and forum for updates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

Reality of the match engine and the development relies very much on the word balance. This crosses a huge amount of things, not just match stats and results, but how the games look and feel. 

There's a huge amount to consider - consider the match engine something like a Rubix's cube. You may be able to code something in such a way that from one perspective it looks absolutely perfect, but the rest of the cube will still remain jumbled. The match engine is like this in such a way that every change can have a knock-on elsewhere. Even the slightest tweak to a tiny area has repercussions.  

What our test teams (both internally and externally) do is constantly play matches leading to analysing and investigating the match across multiple aspects. The match stats is definitely a drive towards realism, but it isn't the sole component. I'd like to challenge someone to list all the statistic components of a football match that need to be aligned with real life to get a perfect match engine. Looking at the statistics we analyse using our match stats test I stopped counting how many categories there were at 150, and there were plenty more after that :D  And I'm sure there's many others we could include beyond this. 

Now to clarify this isn't trying to excuse anything, we have extremely high standards as a company for the work we do. Anyone has seen Miles after he's found a major bug can attest to that :D I'm just trying to give an indication to the scale of the task and the lengths we already go to in order to try and create something that is replicating something extremely complex in real life. Some issues we can make slight tweaks to and have a fair idea of the potential knock-ons, but large scale changes will always require a huge amount of time and analysis.  

I appreciate your effort given the complexity @Neil Brock . You and your colleagues are really working hard to deliver the best possible ME you can. I also hope you keep communication with fans like this 

But the fact is that in the Rubix cube  we aren't demanding the perfect combination as well. It's just that we feel basic things are also giving the frustrated feeling like lack of striker movement or Central Midfield Forward ball passing or Deep Sitting teams who has less technical ability can pass the ball like Prime barca for 90 mins every single match. These are basic things which is what frustrating for many. Last year it was more or less the same and it felt like step down from FM 18 in my perspective. The buck stops at the whistle but in this game we look at the what happens betweens the whistles and if we can't see what we want despite trying it gives the vibes of "Should i do it time and time again".  Many hoped this year can be better and it was improved as well but it was still behind the expectations of many.

The Final point is at the end of the day This is a game and we want fun. if the fun factor is missing it just becomes chore. I hope you won't push the fun into chore. I trust SI given how you made me a fan of the game since 2016 (Fm 16). I hope you figure out to bring the best of this Rubix cube. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bobek said:

Polish transfer window ends today. 

I wonder if players like Sturridge will be included in February patch? ( he is free player right now)

Sturridge has been banned from football until June 17 for betting breaches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When can i expect the latest update including China and Russia transferwindows?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minuti fa, ferrarinseb ha scritto:

I appreciate your effort given the complexity @Neil Brock . You and your colleagues are really working hard to deliver the best possible ME you can. I also hope you keep communication with fans like this 

But the fact is that in the Rubix cube  we aren't demanding the perfect combination as well. It's just that we feel basic things are also giving the frustrated feeling like lack of striker movement or Central Midfield Forward ball passing or Deep Sitting teams who has less technical ability can pass the ball like Prime barca for 90 mins every single match. These are basic things which is what frustrating for many. Last year it was more or less the same and it felt like step down from FM 18 in my perspective. The buck stops at the whistle but in this game we look at the what happens betweens the whistles and if we can't see what we want despite trying it gives the vibes of "Should i do it time and time again".  Many hoped this year can be better and it was improved as well but it was still behind the expectations of many.

The Final point is at the end of the day This is a game and we want fun. if the fun factor is missing it just becomes chore. I hope you won't push the fun into chore. I trust SI given how you made me a fan of the game since 2016 (Fm 16). I hope you figure out to bring the best of this Rubix cube. 

 

 

This.

I appreciate it is hard to balance all together to get the ME that would please the majority. I can't even imagine how difficult it is to get the "rubik" into the right balance. But none of us is paid to do that. What I can say as a long term customer, is that that "rubik" cube has never been more distorted. And what is more concerning, it gets worst year after year. the balance in the ME appears off the track.

If this conclusion is right (not saying it is, it is just my observation), it means the ME might have gone too far to be dealt with. Again, if all this oversimplified observation is close to truth, is there a new ME in the making for FM 22, 25...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
44 minuti fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

Absolutely right with on that first paragraph. Of course your definitions then also need to match that of real stat definitions, in this case OPTA. Easier said than done, but crucial. 

indeed, but this wouldn't be useful only for players. Mostly, it would be useful for SI. Otherwise, how can they possibly draw any conclusions about in game stats?

 

44 minuti fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

Incidentally you've got the same who say stats get in the way also complaining about too many headers etc. You can't pick and choose. Either stats matter, or they don't. 

I am afraid I don't understand what you mean there, could you explain?

Edited by MBarbaric

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, bcereus said:

Is there a need for an overhaul of the match engine then to make it easier to update it and so you are not having to manage these complex knock on effects?

To me it feels like the match engine came from an era where the game was extremely simple but now has huge issues because more and more complexity has been thrown at it with the introduction of the lines of engagement and other things.

If SI could either give a timeline for fixes in the game or at least a timeline for overhauling this system then alot of people would stop spamming the thread and come back at a later date.

The ambiguity is what is causing alot of head ache for a lot of people and causing them to keep checking this thread and forum for updates.

As they have said before, it's always very difficult for them to give any real time line due the work going into fixes, knock on and rebalances of said fixes. Hence why they tend not to. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, RocheBag said:

Can anyone tell me how 3 at the back plays this year? Do the wide CBs push up in possession to recycle the ball and act as psuedo-fullbacks in attack? Do they defend the wide spaces to cover their marauding wingbacks? Do the wingbacks push out to close down the wings or do they sit in a narrow 5 across which no team actually does in reality? Related to that, do the central mids have to close down the wings because the wingbacks refuse to?

Would love to know if any of these issues have been looked at this year, as 3 at the back has played nothing like reality for quite some time now.

Anyone have any insight on this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

Anyone have any insight on this?

The tactics section of the forum may be a better place to get some engagement on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

Anyone have any insight on this?

Download the demo and have a look yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I'm hurting myself playing this game...even with comments only and no replay.

Just lost 4-3 to a non league team (may be tier 9) with only 1 player generated. I had to watch replay. They got 1 semi clear cut chance, 5 shots on target. How did they score? 3 long shots YEAHHHHH

IA doesn't even need to create opportunities, a random player with random stats will take a random shot and randomly scored.  This is the current state of the ME.

Why every non league player have better long shot skills than Scholes? It's your tactics:D

How are we supposed to prevent conceded goals on short pass free kicks leading to insta shots? We can't:D

Missing 1v1 was nothing compare to that. I feel frustrated and disappointed. 

 

Edited by SpS_Zen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tyburn said:

The tactics section of the forum may be a better place to get some engagement on this.

Not a tactics issue as there is nothing you can do to change how it works. It's an issue with the match engine.

2 hours ago, Luizinho said:

Download the demo and have a look yourself.

If that were an option I would.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

Reality of the match engine and the development relies very much on the word balance. This crosses a huge amount of things, not just match stats and results, but how the games look and feel. 

There's a huge amount to consider - consider the match engine something like a Rubix's cube. You may be able to code something in such a way that from one perspective it looks absolutely perfect, but the rest of the cube will still remain jumbled. The match engine is like this in such a way that every change can have a knock-on elsewhere. Even the slightest tweak to a tiny area has repercussions.  

What our test teams (both internally and externally) do is constantly play matches leading to analysing and investigating the match across multiple aspects. The match stats is definitely a drive towards realism, but it isn't the sole component. I'd like to challenge someone to list all the statistic components of a football match that need to be aligned with real life to get a perfect match engine. Looking at the statistics we analyse using our match stats test I stopped counting how many categories there were at 150, and there were plenty more after that :D  And I'm sure there's many others we could include beyond this. 

Now to clarify this isn't trying to excuse anything, we have extremely high standards as a company for the work we do. Anyone has seen Miles after he's found a major bug can attest to that :D I'm just trying to give an indication to the scale of the task and the lengths we already go to in order to try and create something that is replicating something extremely complex in real life. Some issues we can make slight tweaks to and have a fair idea of the potential knock-ons, but large scale changes will always require a huge amount of time and analysis.  

Absolutely understand Neil. I’ve invested in this utterly compelling project for 20 years. As have many people on this forum. And it’s ironic that I could play a game with text on a desktop in 2000 and now complain about the lack of perfect realism in 2020 on my iPad! We all respect everything your team has done - with our money.

We just want to know how a great product went backwards with the ME in the last few years. 2017 was ‘unputtdownable’. I guess playing on the iPad means the gameplay is really focused on the match and if that’s going backwards it feels the product is going backwards. 

i hope this doesn’t come across as unpleasant. The game that was created is amazing. Maybe something has been lost recently. Sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the statistics discussion: It is not how many scored but how the goals scored related to IRL. Also according to player profile stats should he score that in his ability. That is the main problem for me. And central patient play..:kriss:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The goalkeepers at semi-decent level (something like League One and better) are just too good and probably balanced in a way to keep the scorelines realistic.

I set up a friendly against a local side and scored 19 in 41 shots on target...even players with low finishing seemed to take perfect shots. Which just doesn't happen in actual competitive games. Everyone just blasts the ball and hopes for the best.

First two games of the season end up with a ridiculous amount of shots on target from inside the box being saved.
Took a couple of days off after my last rant, but this is just unbearable.

You can throw the whole tactics FM20 subforum into the bin because it's worthless at this point.
It just comes down to creating a high-press tactics and hoping for the best.

I don't care abut "it's your tactics" posts, I'm probably not a top tier player, but I'm more than capable enough to see that this is a waste of time if you want to focus on developing tactics and how your team plays.

Literally 20 games per season with 15+ shots on target and 0 or only 1 goal scored. That's unheard of.
 

I always pre-ordered the game as soon as it was available because I think that you guys at SI are one of the rare game developers who're worth my money in this day and age, but I don't think I'm preordering FM21 until I see the reviews.
It's March and we still have terrible bugs (not just issues, but bugs) in the game.
Mainly FKs that are obviously a direct shot threat being registered as wide or low shooting threat FKs and pressing patterns being broken with multiple players attacking the goalkeeper with "prevent short GK distribution" instruction.
That's just flat out broken, not badly balanced.

Another evening wasted, possibly my last one unless there's a major ME overhaul, have a nice night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone have any solid defensive set-piece routines? Because no matter how I set them up, the AI always find a way to score from them. It’s killing me to be honest, preferred conceding from long balls over the top 😂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SpS_Zen said:

I'm hurting myself playing this game...even with comments only and no replay.

Just lost 4-3 to a non league team (may be tier 9) with only 1 player generated. I had to watch replay. They got 1 semi clear cut chance, 5 shots on target. How did they score? 3 long shots YEAHHHHH

IA doesn't even need to create opportunities, a random player with random stats will take a random shot and randomly scored.  This is the current state of the ME.

Why every non league player have better long shot skills than Scholes? It's your tactics:D

How are we supposed to prevent conceded goals on short pass free kicks leading to insta shots? We can't:D

Missing 1v1 was nothing compare to that. I feel frustrated and disappointed. 

 

Try to have all the excitement and none of the anger, that's the secret to happiness in game and irl. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone who has put 1000+ hours in this game (depression and not working does that) I wanna make my voice vocal in Patrice Evra's voice in that "I LOOOVE this game, OH MY GOD."

IMO best version ever, and that's coming from someone who lost a CL final with 8ccc's and 4 hc's on penalties.

What I truly love is that I feel I need to adapt to and think about opposition tactics and players, makes me feel like a tactician. 

So even if this version will be my last indefinitely for personal reasons to explore other avenues in life, do know that we truly appreciate the hard work you put in to give us so much enjoyment in life even when life can be ****, SI!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 01/03/2020 at 18:11, glenjamin said:

Is anyone put off buying FM21 as a result of FM20? For the first time in 15 years I'm leaning towards not buying it. I remember back in the late 2000s/early 2010s I would pre order the game and ensure I'd be pretty much waiting outside the games shop the morning the game would be released in order to buy it and rush home to play it. Then I started waiting until around January to buy the game after a couple of patches had been released, and now it seems if you want to properly enjoy the game you got to wait until March until after the release of the final main patch. And at that point you can buy the game for half the initial release price. I actually Googled Championship Manager 4 the other day and thought about downloading it just because I wanted to play something. Yet FM20 is sitting there on my desktop and I just have zero interest in it. 

Yeah, I feel exactly the same too. 

I'm not going to go all back through the reasons again. I was quite angry about it just before Christmas but to be honest I just now feel sad. Sad that a game series I genuinely love and have loved playing for the last 26 years has become what it has become.

I hadn't played for a month or so until the release back in early Feb. I tried the game again for a weekend after that patch and it still seemed as bad to me as before. I haven't gone back and played it since. I have regularly played in excess of 1500 hours per version since the beginning of Champ Manager, and yet now I have no desire to play at all. Completely now fallen out of love with this wonderful series.

I will try the demo for FM21, if there is one - which of course there usually is. Certainly won't be pre-ordering, and even if the demo is good will more than likely still wait a month or 6 weeks for the inevitable patch that will alter the ME. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

There's a huge amount to consider - consider the match engine something like a Rubix's cube. You may be able to code something in such a way that from one perspective it looks absolutely perfect, but the rest of the cube will still remain jumbled. The match engine is like this in such a way that every change can have a knock-on elsewhere. Even the slightest tweak to a tiny area has repercussions.

Thank you for your hard work! I just cant resist my self thinking you really should improve ME coding itself not what it achieves. Making it easier to manipulate with less knockbacks. Is it possible to do multiple ME's for def, transition and final third? Partition it. Does everything have to affect everything?

Edited by Pasonen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, davehanson said:

Yeah, I feel exactly the same too. 

I'm not going to go all back through the reasons again. I was quite angry about it just before Christmas but to be honest I just now feel sad. Sad that a game series I genuinely love and have loved playing for the last 26 years has become what it has become.

I hadn't played for a month or so until the release back in early Feb. I tried the game again for a weekend after that patch and it still seemed as bad to me as before. I haven't gone back and played it since. I have regularly played in excess of 1500 hours per version since the beginning of Champ Manager, and yet now I have no desire to play at all. Completely now fallen out of love with this wonderful series.

I will try the demo for FM21, if there is one - which of course there usually is. Certainly won't be pre-ordering, and even if the demo is good will more than likely still wait a month or 6 weeks for the inevitable patch that will alter the ME. 

I just read the last couple of pages and was preparing to write something very, very similar. For me it's almost heartbreaking to see the ME as it currently stands. I too will not pre-order next time, in fact I won't even demo the game until as late as possible, March time.

I was annoyed with the development state of the initial release, but having bought and played the game since the day dot I was prepared to bare with it and even forgive its shortcomings. 

However, the subsequent patch releases haven't improved it and worse still the now seemingly inevitable new errors we inherit with each release. More frustrating still is an underlying perception that we're asking too much of the programmers and the ME in particular. We live in a time where we can launch a rocket into space and land it back on the same spot then reuse it.....we simply have to aim higher with the ME!! No pun intended..... I recall Miles dismissing some bloke on Twitter because he made a development suggestion that was "arcade like" The reply was a very firm "FM is a football simulation" That's great, exactly as it should be but, if it is going to call itself that then the ME needs to catch up quickly with the rest of the game because right now it does not simulate the football I watch every day, not even close.

Edited by janrzm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Braincomplexa said:

As someone who has put 1000+ hours in this game (depression and not working does that) I wanna make my voice vocal in Patrice Evra's voice in that "I LOOOVE this game, OH MY GOD."

IMO best version ever, and that's coming from someone who lost a CL final with 8ccc's and 4 hc's on penalties.

What I truly love is that I feel I need to adapt to and think about opposition tactics and players, makes me feel like a tactician. 

So even if this version will be my last indefinitely for personal reasons to explore other avenues in life, do know that we truly appreciate the hard work you put in to give us so much enjoyment in life even when life can be ****, SI!

The bit about being a tactician hits it on the head for me. Not only that but this is the absolute best version of the series for actually having to manage my club.

Of course, finding a tactic that both works, looks like something resembling football and makes the ME not show me most of the horrors some seem to see far too often is very important. But the point continually being missed it seems, especially on this thread, is that the ME is actually far more sophisticated than people would believe. What the ME shows you is far more closely linked to EVERYTHING outside of playing a match than ever before. It’s not just tactics that influence how the ME represents itself to us. It’s morale, chemistry, management. Making the right decisions at the right time. Pick one wrong player, say one wrong thing in a press conference and your team will hit the woodwork 6 times in a match, you’ll concede a last minute wonder goal or concede from yet another set piece.

The management of your club is shown to you by the ME. People say the ME is going backwards. It’s not. The way it shows us our decisions are wrong, I agree, could be handled in a more palatable way. But it DOES show us we have made bad decisions. When you’re playing in patches wonderful football, when it shows us roughly what our tactics were designed to do, it’s because EVERYTHING within the club is being managed well. Seeing goals only from set pieces? I see this occasionally too. But it’s because I have other issues in my club going on, because most of the time my team do not score set pieces and nor do I concede many.

When your ST is missing chance after chance, it may well be just him, it may well be your tactic on the whole, or it may be that your management decisions on the whole are not quite right. Obviously it can be frustrating, because a lot of the time it is not obvious what is going wrong, why the ME appears to ‘wig out’ inexplicably. But it’s our job to try and work that out, and it’s our job to manage. 

Has anyone else thought this to be possible? 

I’ll say it again. The WAY the ME shows us this can be improved. But for me this is the first version, in what I believe will be the way forward with the franchise from now on, where the ME is way more closely aligned to everything else outside of just playing a match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

The bit about being a tactician hits it on the head for me. Not only that but this is the absolute best version of the series for actually having to manage my club.

Of course, finding a tactic that both works, looks like something resembling football and makes the ME not show me most of the horrors some seem to see far too often is very important. But the point continually being missed it seems, especially on this thread, is that the ME is actually far more sophisticated than people would believe. What the ME shows you is far more closely linked to EVERYTHING outside of playing a match than ever before. It’s not just tactics that influence how the ME represents itself to us. It’s morale, chemistry, management. Making the right decisions at the right time. Pick one wrong player, say one wrong thing in a press conference and your team will hit the woodwork 6 times in a match, you’ll concede a last minute wonder goal or concede from yet another set piece.

The management of your club is shown to you by the ME. People say the ME is going backwards. It’s not. The way it shows us our decisions are wrong, I agree, could be handled in a more palatable way. But it DOES show us we have made bad decisions. When you’re playing in patches wonderful football, when it shows us roughly what our tactics were designed to do, it’s because EVERYTHING within the club is being managed well. Seeing goals only from set pieces? I see this occasionally too. But it’s because I have other issues in my club going on, because most of the time my team do not score set pieces and nor do I concede many.

When your ST is missing chance after chance, it may well be just him, it may well be your tactic on the whole, or it may be that your management decisions on the whole are not quite right. Obviously it can be frustrating, because a lot of the time it is not obvious what is going wrong, why the ME appears to ‘wig out’ inexplicably. But it’s our job to try and work that out, and it’s our job to manage. 

Has anyone else thought this to be possible? 

I’ll say it again. The WAY the ME shows us this can be improved. But for me this is the first version, in what I believe will be the way forward with the franchise from now on, where the ME is way more closely aligned to everything else outside of just playing a match.

They've been in the game for years and never before have I felt they are more of an obvious box ticking chore than they are in FM20. 

I know exactly which options are "good" and "bad" replies to players or press conference questions or team meetings. 

Then you get to the ME and it's an even more awful chore to get through too. And you don't need to be a tactician at all. I lost 1 competitive game in my last season on FM20.

I hope to god this isn't the future of the series because if it is the series doesn't have one. 

Edited by kiwityke1983

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, kiwityke1983 said:

With all respect to SI and it's developers/testers and Neil FM has been and is the only game I've ever pre-ordered every year. I've bought every copy and I've never gone backwards to play another copy once the new one was out, until FM20 where I've gone back to Fm18. 

And here is exactly why. Your rubiks cube now  looks like its had bits removed and never replaced and someone's clearly tried colouring over different colour squares to cheat and it frankly resembles a completed rubiks cube as much as my fridge does. 

I've rediscovered my love of FM on FM18 for the following reasons)(basically I think why everyone fell in love with this series to start with) . 

I start the season and I'm predicted to finish 2nd. The board want promotion. All fine I expect to be challenging for a title myself. I setup my tactics and formation and play my first 10 matches. We win 4 draw 2 and lose 4 to mid-table. Its a disaster. But its a disaster that has an obvious tactical source watching the matches. I'm over committing in attack and being hit on the counter. 

I make a few tactical tweaks and we instantly go on a 21 game unbeaten streak winning 19 and drawing 2. Going from midtable to 9 points clear at the top playing breath taking free flowing attacking football. 

Then we hit another sticky patch (around January) where we are getting caught in possession trying to play the ball out from the back. So I go into the transfer market and buy a ball playing defender to try and sort this problem. We play even better. 

My inside forward is an absolute wizard, he cuts inside he floats around into pockets of space, he goes on the outside. He puts low crosses in! (something that is conspicuous by its absence in FM20). He gets to the byline and pulls it back for an onrushing midfielder (instead of smashing it into the side netting like he would in FM20). 

I'm close to the end of the season and I'm loving playing the game because the ME looks and feels as real as it can watching sprites and more importantly I feel I have control over what happens on the pitch. 

I never once got this feeling in FM20s ME. It is a boring drag where free flowing football isn't even remotely possible. Where I lose games because of some random event rather than a tactical flaw to be analysed and overcome. Where I win games because well I've got the best side and the ME says I should win. I never feel I have any real control, I never feel my tactics matter. I never even really feel like the attributes of my players matter. Its an absolutely soulless experience. Something I've never said about an FM game, and I hope I never say again. 

If I could give 1 piece of advice it's go back and work from FM18s ME because it's as close to a completed rubiks cube you've ever been. 

 

This is what I echoed in my posts. 

I think a number of us have said we feel that this ME is just too random. It doesn't work off of tactical sense, it is more about figuring what is broken and working within the framework of the warped way the ME sees football. I'd go back a year and say FM17 was the ME they should work off of, but certainly even FM18 and FM19 were better than this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

They've been in the game for years and never before have I felt they are more of an obvious box ticking chore than they are in FM20. 

I know exactly which options are "good" and "bad" replies to players or press conference questions or team meetings. 

Then you get to the ME and it's an even more awful chore to get through too. And you don't need to be a tactician at all. I lost 1 competitive game in my last season on FM20.

I hope to god this isn't the future of the series because if it is the series doesn't have one. 

Sorry, what has been in the game for years?

Its not about the features. It’s about management. You may well be winning. But if you’re seeing endless goals from set pieces I’m merely suggesting that it’s not just the ME that is at fault. It’s your tactics AND your management. Because, frankly I don’t see many, and when I have patches when I DO see more than usual it’s because of something else. Like a player playing through an injury, or an unhappy player, or well ... anything actually. The management of your team and what the ME shows us are more closely linked than ever imo.

The ME is often not pretty to watch, but it is a combination of things that make it this way. Not simply that the ME is broken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm starting to agree with those about the ME either being random or just not taking attributes into account at all. It's like it just looks at the match up of the formations and instructions and decides on the result and what types of goals will be scored.

The tipping point came from me not paying full attention and accidentally subbing a 36 year old Nicky Hunt with 4 for pace and acceleration, 6 for dribbling, 4 for flair and 6 for off the ball into the inside forward position, but he started to tear their full back to shreds and just cut inside him every time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tyburn said:

The ME is often not pretty to watch, but it is a combination of things that make it this way. Not simply that the ME is broken.

Agreed, users have to take their share for playing poor football. However the ME issues with crosses, corners and set pieces runs into the AI too, which means either all AI tactics are also broken, or that there is something in the ME favouring crossed goals. Anyway, discussing it forever is relatively pointless. Either SI have worked on it and will release a new ME, or we wait to 2021. It has been discussed absolutely to death now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone else have issues with CPU teams just being completely unable to cope with a team that plays 3 at the back with wing backs? I've only managed to finish a few seasons without getting too frustrated and giving up, but every lower league in Scotland and England is just dominated by teams who play that formation - like played 36 won 30 kind of domination

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

It's absolutely the ME is broken. 

All of the things you mentioned in your prior post have been in the game for years and have affected the ME. 

It's nothing new. What is new is the feeling that I'm absolutely railroaded into finding ways around the broken ME to even have any enjoyment. I'm not making tactical changes because they make tactical sense I'm making them because the ME is broken and even when I make them it's still awful to watch. 

I can't choose to play ultra attacking flair based tactics and I'll live with the consequences defensively. I can't choose to try and sit back and defend soak up pressure and counter. I'm railroaded into trying to find some form of tactic that produces even mildly bare able and passable football in this year's ME. 

Their is no sense of being a tactician tweaking my tactical ideals to suit my squad or the opposition. There is the very sense I'm playing a video game and tweaking to somehow "beat it", which if you even halfway know what you are doing is easier than ever in FM20, hence I lost 1 game in the last season I bothered playing, it's absolutely immersion breaking. 

I'm glad you are enjoying the game and I know that I won't convince you otherwise and am not really even trying, I just want to voice my frustrations with a game that has enthralled me since I was 9 years old. 

I can recount teams and players I created from memory from the text only ME days. Kurniawan the magician of an Amc in my all conquering Sporting side from around 1994, Lincoln another magician of an Amc from my Olympiacos team that never quite won anything because I insisted defending was for sissys and we were all out attack all day everyday. 

Marinelli speeding down the wing and pinging crosses in on one of the very first MEs to have actual graphical visualisations. 

Alexey Bosetti the wizard of a Treq who was the beating heart of my Champions league winning Barnsley side in FM17. Jorge Mendoza the 17 year old Colombian signed for 30k who scored 80 goals in 2 seasons then missed training pretty much everyday for 3 years straight due to being seen in nightclubs before being forced into retirement by the age of 23 because nobody wanted him. 

The Dundalk side who defended like their lives depended on it and  FMd Barca twice in the Champs league finally losing by a goal to Bayern in the semis.

This is what makes FM great! This is why I've played every version for 28 years or whatever it is now. 

It's only been a month and I couldn't even tell you which side I was managing in FM20 that's how utterly bored by the whole thing I was. 

Agreed this has been discussed to death @sporadicsmileshowever a few points here I would like to discuss further.

Likewise I won’t be trying to convince you otherwise @kiwityke1983. I feel sorry you’re not enjoying it. But the ME is not broken. In fact, as I’ve said before, it’s more sophisticated now than its ever been. HOW it shows us our decisions needs improvement, but seeing as you’ve been playing for so long, don’t you feel you could give SI some benefit of doubt here?

I’ve also been playing the franchise for over 20 years. How is it we can both have such different opinions on the state of the game as a whole and the ME!?

Of course these features have been in the game for years but they did NOT have as much as an influence on what the ME shows to us, as they do now. For example: people have been saying that morale is OP. Perhaps. But at least it HAS an affect on matchday now. More has been worked on to link the actual management of your club to what is seen in the ME. It’s simply way too easy to just down tools and say the ME is broken.

Tactically, Its funny, because soaking up pressure and using transitions to counter my opponent with pace and power is exactly the way I’m playing at the moment. I used to use ultra attacking tactics in the last few previous versions but, for me at least, the current year’s ME wasn’t responding well to it. Sure, I was winning. But I got bored of scoring, what seemed like, mostly from set pieces and watching my ST miss more chances than he’d score etc. So I adapted my style. Not a problem.

When has playing the video game of FM ever been not playing a game!? The ME has always had styles that it could replicate better than others. It’s always had exploits. I just feel the exploits this year look more like exploits than any other version. And so does dodgy management. At least for me.

We’ll be agreeing to disagree here, but I’m truly interested how so many of us long time players of the game can have such different opinions.

Just to add. All the personality of pervious versions you’ve shared is very much still in the game for me. Are you playing more than a couple of seasons on any save?

Edited by Tyburn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

HOW it shows us our decisions needs improvement, but seeing as you’ve been playing for so long, don’t you feel you could give SI some benefit of doubt here?

I’ve also been playing the franchise for over 20 years. How is it we can both have such different opinions on the state of the game as a whole and the ME!?

Of course these features have been in the game for years but they did NOT have as much as an influence on what the ME shows to us, as they do now. For example: people have been saying that morale is OP. Perhaps. But at least it HAS an affect on matchday now. More has been worked on to link the actual management of your club to what is seen in the ME. It’s simply way too easy to just down tools and say the ME is broken.

Sorry but how do you know all that about non tactical stuff having more efect on matchday than before? Morale had always affected how team plays that's not new. 

To me it looks ME went downhills because of adding unnessasery new instructions like defensive width and combined with stuff like AI being too defensive in manner with no real life logics. This two things killed attacking play. 

It looks looks like the balance between attacking and defending is off and current tactical system can't replicate different styles of football. Resaons for that are really simple though and I can't believe SI still stick to outdated tactical principles. The game needs styles that play like what they are supposed to, currently it all looks very abstract. For example defensive tactics being able to dominate possession. Etc.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

Agreed this has been discussed to death @sporadicsmileshowever a few points here I would like to discuss further.

Likewise I won’t be trying to convince you otherwise @kiwityke1983. I feel sorry you’re not enjoying it. But the ME is not broken. In fact, as I’ve said before, it’s more sophisticated now than its ever been. HOW it shows us our decisions needs improvement, but seeing as you’ve been playing for so long, don’t you feel you could give SI some benefit of doubt here?

I’ve also been playing the franchise for over 20 years. How is it we can both have such different opinions on the state of the game as a whole and the ME!?

Of course these features have been in the game for years but they did NOT have as much as an influence on what the ME shows to us, as they do now. For example: people have been saying that morale is OP. Perhaps. But at least it HAS an affect on matchday now. More has been worked on to link the actual management of your club to what is seen in the ME. It’s simply way too easy to just down tools and say the ME is broken.

Tactically, Its funny, because soaking up pressure and using transitions to counter my opponent with pace and power is exactly the way I’m playing at the moment. I used to use ultra attacking tactics in the last few previous versions but, for me at least, the current year’s ME wasn’t responding well to it. Sure, I was winning. But I got bored of scoring, what seemed like, mostly from set pieces and watching my ST miss more chances than he’d score etc. So I adapted my style. Not a problem.

When has playing the video game of FM ever been not playing a game!? The ME has always had styles that it could replicate better than others. It’s always had exploits. I just feel the exploits this year look more like exploits than any other version. And so does dodgy management. At least for me.

We’ll be agreeing to disagree here, but I’m truly interested how so many of us long time players of the game can have such different opinions.

Just to add. All the personality of pervious versions you’ve shared is very much still in the game for me. Are you playing more than a couple of seasons on any save?

I massively disagree that there is even any real management of your team going on. As I said in my previous reply it's just selecting the correct options when the options crop up. As soon as you realise what the good and bad options are the team management becomes a matter of selecting the same 4 or 5 options everytime. Which then due to the OP nature of morale in the ME means you win more often than not. It becomes a hamster wheel of positive reinforcement. 

Take shouts in a match. Anything but "demand more" and "show some passion" results in a drợp of morale 95% of the time no matter the actual situation. 

As for the ME if you say "it's your tactics" for anything but actual tactical flaws within those tactics and are in fact saying it because you can't play those tactics within the ME then the ME is broken. As someone else said above the problems are with the AI and its tactics too. 

I have made it around 12 seasons into a save twice on FM20. I'd usually go 30 or 40 seasons in a normal year. The new boardroom feature is another immersion breaking bit of the game for me too. It becomes increasingly clear that teams just adopt whatever your tactical style was anyway as demands after a year or two. 

I don't think SI can save FM20 for me to be honest. The ME started badly and has gotten worse to the point its just a soulless and tedious experience for me. 

Miles was saying in the build up to this years FM that 50% of people who had purchased FM19 was still playing in the last month before FM20s release, that's been me for 28 years. For the first time ever I'm in the 50% who won't be which is why I will give them the benefit of the doubt for FM21.

(Anyway I'm loving playing FM18 so I'm still getting my FM fix) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

I massively disagree that there is even any real management of your team going on. As I said in my previous reply it's just selecting the correct options when the options crop up. As soon as you realise what the good and bad options are the team management becomes a matter of selecting the same 4 or 5 options everytime. Which then due to the OP nature of morale in the ME means you win more often than not. It becomes a hamster wheel of positive reinforcement. 

Take shouts in a match. Anything but "demand more" and "show some passion" results in a drợp of morale 95% of the time no matter the actual situation. 

As for the ME if you say "it's your tactics" for anything but actual tactical flaws within those tactics and are in fact saying it because you can't play those tactics within the ME then the ME is broken. As someone else said above the problems are with the AI and its tactics too. 

I have made it around 12 seasons into a save twice on FM20. I'd usually go 30 or 40 seasons in a normal year. The new boardroom feature is another immersion breaking bit of the game for me too. It becomes increasingly clear that teams just adopt whatever your tactical style was anyway as demands after a year or two. 

I don't think SI can save FM20 for me to be honest. The ME started badly and has gotten worse to the point its just a soulless and tedious experience for me. 

Miles was saying in the build up to this years FM that 50% of people who had purchased FM19 was still playing in the last month before FM20s release, that's been me for 28 years. For the first time ever I'm in the 50% who won't be which is why I will give them the benefit of the doubt for FM21.

(Anyway I'm loving playing FM18 so I'm still getting my FM fix) 

It’s not just about selecting options. It’s about managing the club. Building chemistry, buying players who dynamically fit, dealing with moaners. Etc. It all has an influence.

Try using “get creative” as a shout around the 30min mark if you’re drawing. Had some great effects with this.

Tactics will always divide opinion. But I’m playing a balanced tactic, that creates flowing footballing moves, where my lone ST is scoring freely. I’m not scoring many set pieces, I’m not conceding many. I’m scoring pens, I’m missing a few. I’m scoring cut backs, headers (not enough tbh). Etc etc. I’m not cheating the ME out of what it instinctively wants to show me. I’m working with it. It’s a game. We have to be realistic here and have some perspective.

Not once have I come to the table and thought I can’t replicate the style of football I want because the ME can’t do it. It can handle some of my ideas better than others. But if it could do everything well, all of the time it would be a darn side more boring than what people think it is already. 

I’ve never doubted the ME AI needs some work. But linking the management of the club to the ME, further and further, needs to happen. Otherwise we’re just playing two different games like a Total War game. Which is how I’ve felt previous recent FM’s have been like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Sorry but how do you know all that about non tactical stuff having more efect on matchday than before? Morale had always affected how team plays that's not new. 

To me it looks ME went downhills because of adding unnessasery new instructions like defensive width and combined with stuff like AI being too defensive in manner with no real life logics. This two things killed attacking play. 

It looks looks like the balance between attacking and defending is off and current tactical system can't replicate different styles of football. Resaons for that are really simple though and I can't believe SI still stick to outdated tactical principles. The game needs styles that play like what they are supposed to, currently it all looks very abstract. For example defensive tactics being able to dominate possession. Etc.  

As you say, non tactical decisions have always to a certain extent influenced the ME but I think they have more influence on what we see now within it. Morale is the most basic example however injuries, happiness, personalities, press conferences, form etc all make a difference. I’ve found anyway. The best football I’ve seen any of my teams play have been when everything aligns to what I would consider perfect. Any discrepancies need to be managed. 

And yeah, I agree the ME can look a bit abstract. Especially when AI vs AI. But the game is not intended to be played AI vs AI. I don’t see how the ME when AI vs AI has any relevance to me managing my team and playing my games in the ME.

Edited by Tyburn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Tyburn said:

As you say, non tactical decisions have always to a certain extent influenced the ME but I think they have more influence on what we see now within it. Morale is the most basic example however injuries, happiness, personalities, press conferences etc all make a difference. I’ve found anyway. The best football I’ve seen any of my teams play have been when everything aligns to what I would consider perfect. Any discrepancies need to be managed. 

And yeah, I agree the ME can look a bit abstract. Especially when AI vs AI. But the game is not intended to be played AI vs AI. I don’t see how the ME when AI vs AI has any relevance to me managing my team and playing my games in the ME.

Of course it's a good thing to improve link between managment and matchday but at the same time the game needs to give you idea why something is happening a little more if that's the case. I get what you are saying but I agree with kiwityke that squad management is too repetative once you know the right things to click. But I really doubt we should be looking for reasons why some basic football stuff is missing currently outside of ME. 

How AI plays directly affects your play and gaming experience. It also affects game's realism and how challenging it is. That's why different styles must play type of football they claim and at the moment that's not the case. Imagine City playing long balls but hey that's what's happening now not because of management but because of poor representation of different styles. They don't even come close enough of what they claim in their description.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Of course it's a good thing to improve link between managment and matchday but at the same time the game needs to give you idea why something is happening a little more if that's the case. I get what you are saying but I agree with kiwityke that squad management is too repetative once you know the right things to click. But I really doubt we should be looking for reasons why some basic football stuff is missing currently outside of ME. 

How AI plays directly affects your play and gaming experience. It also affects game's realism and how challenging it is. That's why different styles must play type of football they claim and at the moment that's not the case. Imagine City playing long balls but hey that's what's happening now not because of management but because of poor representation of different styles. They don't even come close enough of what they claim in their description.  

 

I’d argue squad management is the best it’s ever been. Yes it’s repetitive, but so it can be in reality. 

Why does the game need to give us more information of why things are happening? Wouldn’t that just make it even more ‘tedious’?

Tactically, could it be that the AI is responding to what our, the users, tactics are? If Man City’s style isn’t being replicated against me it’s because of how I’ve set up. Again, I’m not really interested in how AI Man City plays against another AI team in the ME. It doesn’t affect my decisions. Perhaps it should, especially from a scouting next opponent perspective. But ultimately the game is designed for user input. Not AI vs AI.

I’ve also always had an issue with FM’s use of descriptions, especially in the tactics creator. I think they’re often misleading. I will always create a custom tactic from scratch, and when in my manager profile it tells me I’m using a fluid counter style for instance, so be it. Or that I like both defensive and attacking football in my ‘known for’ descriptions. I mean, eh? I take it all with a pinch of salt.

Anyway, enough about me. I didn’t mean to hog the airwaves. See you all next time :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...