Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread

[craigcwwe]

2 minutes ago, Bobek said:

100% true

But hasn't that always been the case? 

[JordanMilly]

29 minutes ago, stevemc said:

I've managed to get Peters to stop rejecting offers, but removing the players from the Unwanted List, but I don't know why Peters is getting involved when I've got Sammer to manage the Unwanted List.

It might be the "initiate player signings for u18s", as the player is 18. Could be something conflicting between the two responsibilities of the unwanted list and him being a young player.

[likesiamesefish]

33 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

But hasn't that always been the case? 

I feel like in the past the ME provided a better interpretation of your tactics but the game was so focused on that area that you had to get your tactics tweaked perfectly or download one to really do well. Even though success was still achievable through pure squad building and everything else, you wouldn't really dominate. Now the ME is not as great as it was but there is a bit more balance between the tactical side of the game and the other parts of managing the team.

I don't mind this as much as the average player as I prefer the idea of being a motivator and developer of youth without having to focus as much on the tactics but you can definitely completely dominate with only very minor tweaks to the preset tactics and see a fair representation of your tactics (IMO).

I actually feel like it's less like you have to exploit the game tactically in order to win but the team's performance doesn't reflect what you're asking them to do as well as it used to which is where all the frustration comes from, especially since aside from maybe signing an exciting new team, tactics is what the FM fanbase likes the most about the game.

[faust405245]

Initially I quite liked the beta, only to change it back once I realised how tedious the match engine was. How I wish I could do that now. Give me balls over the top and bad finishing over this borefest every time. Nothing seems to happen, and when occasionally it does it's either a screamer from a guy with 6 long shots or a set piece. I'd give anything to go back to the original release, not because it was great, but because as things stand it's so dull. Surely that build still exists? Could we not be given the option? 

[Gee_Simpson]

25 minutes ago, likesiamesefish said:

tactics is what the FM fanbase likes the most about the game.

Certainly not me! 

I'm useless at them but refuse to download others. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Gee_Simpson

[jc1]

5 hours ago, KUBI said:

There are different coders for interface and ME.

I'm not denying that, I just feel the ME side of the game has lagged behind the interface side recently, I also understand it's very complicated. As I said I have no problems winning and doing well, just finding it all of a bore nowadays, my hours of play is way down this last 2-3 years  and that's a shame.

[FlorianAlbert9]

I have a little stadium (6900), so after the second time we won the title, my board plans to add 4000. Total 10.000. 

While the stadium is under rebuilding, we play at another one. 

We made an average 19.000. (with a max of 32.000) in league. (more in CL)

 

 

 

(I'll post it tomorrow in the bug forum)

[Tyburn]

57 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

I have a little stadium (6900), so after the second time we won the title, my board plans to add 4000. Total 10.000. 

While the stadium is under rebuilding, we play at another one. 

We made an average 19.000. (with a max of 32.000) in league. (more in CL)

 

 

 

(I'll post it tomorrow in the bug forum)

Eh? Why is that a bug?

[Rupal]

It was said earlier that the game has become 'random'.   I can understand where that opinion comes from.

Every year, further layers of complexity are added, with more and more 'features'. Which must mean, in turn, that each of these must have an effect on the results you obtain.  So your choice of tactics and tweaks in match must be having less relative effect the more variables there are. What's happening obviously isn't really 'random' but it gives that impression because of the greater number involved and you feel you have less control over what is going on.

Putting more and more layers of complexity in may not be the best idea.  Perhaps simplification would help.

[Pasonen]

22 minutes ago, Rupal said:

It was said earlier that the game has become 'random'.   I can understand where that opinion comes from.

Every year, further layers of complexity are added, with more and more 'features'. Which must mean, in turn, that each of these must have an effect on the results you obtain.  So your choice of tactics and tweaks in match must be having less relative effect the more variables there are. What's happening obviously isn't really 'random' but it gives that impression because of the greater number involved and you feel you have less control over what is going on.

Putting more and more layers of complexity in may not be the best idea.  Perhaps simplification would help.

Thats true. Managers have too much options to influense  players and team. If fm wants to go more realistic direction training and match preparation should have more effect how team perform at the field and what options you can use in the game. If you prepare slow tempo game and switch it to very high tempo in game what you think would happen in real life? Team shape and creative freedom in general should dictate more how players move and what they do.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Pasonen

[Rupal]

13 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

Thats true. Managers have too much options to influense  players and team. If fm wants to go more realistic direction training and match preparation should have more effect how team perform at the field and what options you can use in the game. If you prepare slow tempo game and switch it to very high tempo in game what you think would happen in real life? Team shape and creative freedom in general should dictate more how players move and what they do.

Exactly!  

I suppose new features are a selling point.  But I'd really like to see more concentration on getting the existing features 100% right rather than adding new ones and a genuine look being taken about whether all the existing features really help with the enjoyment of the game.

I remember my Grandad telling me that during WW2 a particular type of plane was suffering heavier and heavier losses and the designers kept adding more protection features, heavier armour and so on in an effort to reverse this. But things got worse and worse.  Until some pilots, on their own initiative, started having the extra features, armour and so on, taken off their planes.  And losses started to drop.  The planes had become too heavy and cumbersome and as the layers were stripped away they flew better.

Maybe FM is over sophisticated?  Just a thought!

[kingjericho]

Their answer is always something like "maybe fmt is what you want".

But really all these extra features that have been added in recent years please a small group of people while the rest who wanted to enjoy the game without micro managing every single aspect become frustrated.

Even the screen to delegate tasks is complex!

[Travis Bickle]

12 hours ago, Bobek said:

100% true

12 hours ago, craigcwwe said:

But hasn't that always been the case? 

It's gotten a lot more pronounced in recent years.

What I do know is that as late as FM16, I was confident that with the right tactical system I could play in any fashion, in any formation. It was a large chunk of why I loved this game. I'd challenge myself to build the ultimate Simeone counter-attacking, 4-4-2. The ultimate possession based 3-5-2. The ultimate tika-taka 4-1-2-3. You get the point. I'd get audacious and then try to successfully implement a Brazilian box 4-2-2-2 formation or a Bielsa 3-3-1-3. 

In the last editions of the game that's just not possible imo. FM18 was broken by strikerless formation I believe, FM19 got broken by two striker formations combined with crosses/throw-in exploits, and FM20 is too random I don't even know what works but I'm fairly sure the trick is quick counters relying on wingers with high finishing cutting inside. My motivation to play the game is gone, because what is the point? My ideal style of football will never be successfully replicated in this game whereas a style of football I am not that fond of is what is successful. 

I've harped on about this for years, but the inability of strikers to finish their chances has been made far worse on this years FM too. Evident by the low scoring records of even AI strikers in game and this is after patches improving the issue. It seems like SI just don't see an issue with this, which is something I have to accept, as I have been moaning about this for years, but I'm glad that others on this site have noticed how it is an issue in this years game. 

It goes back to what I said in my original post. This game has gotten unnecessarily complicated without actually getting more realistic. It's a whole load of gimmicks. I'd really just kill for SI to go back to what made their game so legendary in the first place. A solid tactical system and the ability to recruit players. I think instead of adding development centres, new staff roles, changing the way staff responsibilities work and all of that, they should spend a year focusing on the ME. It's been neglected for far too long. They seem to think they need gimmicks to sell, they don't. Make the ME unbelievably realistic, keep scouting/recruitment of players what it is, leave the rest for now and watch as you create the best football game ever.  Football Manager's ME should be the gold standard of what simulated football should look like. 

I honestly hate to say this, really, because I've never liked FIFA, but FIFA 20 seemed to replicate real football better than FM's ME this year and I've heard a lot of people complain about FIFA. PES does by a country mile.They do at least resemble real football. 

I really challenge anyone who disagrees with me to go and watch a full match on Football Manager. The whole 90 minutes. Speed it up a bit of course. And then ask yourself if that matches the kind of football you see on the television? Additionally compare FM20 to FM12's ME or even FM15 and see what you think. The presentation has gotten better but the actual match experience is way worse. 

I get that SI probably don't care because the game sells and we're probably just a minority of dedicated players on the net trying to make the game even better, but I think they should. Your core fanbase is what drives your business forward in the long-run and complacency is a killer. This game has no soul, no authenticity, it's not immersive anymore, it just feels clunky, random and gimmicky. I don't enjoy playing it. I think I have some kind of euphoric recall in which I load the game expecting to be transported back to my memories of FM12 but the practical reality is, FM20 brings me absolutely no enjoyment whether I win or lose. Winning on FM20 doesn't feel enjoyable because I don't think I've earned it or can pinpoint why I won. It could just be the overpowered team dynamics meaning everyone was in fantastic morale, it could just be that I signed the right winger to cut inside and score from a counter attack when in reality I wish I was just dominating possession. 

Likewise, when I lose with what I feel is a superior tactical setup, I know it may not be down to my tactics rather that my star captain has decided he wants to leave for CL football, plummeting the entire team's morale... even though we've made the CL Semi Final 3 years in a row and he leaves for a team in the Europa League. I might be losing because my World Cup winning 33 year old MC decides he is "nervous" against a battered Genoa team in an Italian Cup final for no reason. We could be losing because I insist on trying to replicate a possession based style of football which simply doesn't work with FM20's ME even if that system is very close to what won Spain the World Cup. 

Anyway, you get my point. I've had to realise that this won't change. SI have taken a direction that I don't agree with. They insist on complicating the game with gimmicks I don't care for, neglecting the ME and implementing a style of football I disagree with. 

On top of this, as a final point, I think as the game has progressed the kind of stuff that happens in the game is getting more and more stupid and unrealistic, from a database stand-point. Teams sign players they would never sign irl, managers make moves they would never make irl. Events happen that would never happen irl.  Here's an example from my last save, Simeone wins the league with Atléti, gets sacked next season 4 points off of 4th after 24 games and then joins...Arsenal. I'm an Arsenal fan, but this would never happen in real life and he would never get sacked after just winning the leagues. English teams also totally dominate continental competition. I know England is in a good place right now, but the game follows no cycle on continental domination (like we have seen over the last 30 years). What I'm saying is after a while the game starts to look like a parody from a database perspective. And I'll stand by this, even FIFA's Career Mode isn't as ridiculous. 

So like I said, I'll have to try and fill my time with something else. Not easy given how much I've loved this game, but it has to be done. Even this morning I felt like reinstalling it and giving it another go, but I know there's no point. I'll do it and get upset with the same frustrations. If I have to play anything it'll be Europa Universalis IV, and I think that's a game SI could learn a lot from in terms of engaging with the customer base and transparency. 

 

 

[Tyburn]

All good points @Travis Bickle. I feel your pain, having FM essentially become like a religion for me also.

What I would say is that, although there are still issues outside the ME that need a bit of adjustment to become a bit more realistic I am still amazed at times at just how realistic some AI decisions can be. For me the game gets so much right that when it gets it wrong it stands out like a sore thumb. The gameplay outside of the ME is simply superb in my opinion. As it should be. It’s had a good few years of SI love.

For me overall immersion is not the issue. The issue, as you’ve stated, is the ME. 

The game is so close to being what we all want it to be. The next few years MUST be focused on getting the ME right.

The question is do you think SI can do it?

Personally I still have faith. Mainly because I’m not as upset with this current ME as most. It’s become a little sterile since the last patch. But it’s still playable, for me.

But I can see how it’s a tipping point for some. It’s genuinely sad for me that many feel this way. Especially all of us who’ve had it in our lives for so long. I grew up with Star Wars. I put Jedi as my religion in the 2011(?) census. (Bit silly but who cares) Then my religion got torn to pieces and I haven’t even seen the last film, yet.

Is FM really dead? I didn’t buy it for 2 years back in ... I can’t remember when, 2010, 2011? because I felt like not enough was changing. Taking a break did me the world of good with it.

This doesn’t need to be the end. Keep the faith.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Tyburn

[Old Joe Clarke]

8 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

All good points @Travis Bickle. I feel your pain, having FM essentially become like a religion for me also.

What I would say is that, although there are still issues outside the ME that need a bit of adjustment to become a bit more realistic I am still amazed at times at just how realistic some AI decisions can be. For me the game gets so much right that when it gets it wrong it stands out like a sore thumb. The gameplay outside of the ME is simply superb in my opinion. As it should be. It’s had a good few years of SI love.

For me overall immersion is not the issue. The issue, as you’ve stated, is the ME. 

The game is so close to being what we all want it to be. The next few years MUST be focused on getting the ME right.

The question is do you think SI can do it?

Personally I still have faith. Mainly because I’m not as upset with this current ME as most. It’s become a little sterile since the last patch. But it’s still playable, for me.

But I can see how it’s a tipping point for some. It’s genuinely sad for me that many feel this way. Especially all of us who’ve had it in our lives for so long. I grew up with Star Wars. I put Jedi as my religion in the 2011(?) census. (Not silly but who cares) Then my religion got torn to pieces and I haven’t even seen the last film, yet.

Is FM really dead? I didn’t buy it for 2 years back in ... I can’t remember when, 2010, 2011? because I felt like not enough was changing. Taking a break did me the world of good with it.

This doesn’t need to be the end. Keep the faith.

What a refreshing post, good job...

[WynnZeroOne]

1 hour ago, kingjericho said:

But really all these extra features that have been added in recent years please a small group of people

*citation needed*

I see no proof that it's a small group of people. It's a narrative driven every year by a minority who want less features, but SI responded ages ago with FMT and other automation for that the folks that don't want to play the full experience. No developer is about to start dumbing down their core product on the basis of sweeping forum generalisms.

[Travis Bickle]

27 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

All good points @Travis Bickle. I feel your pain, having FM essentially become like a religion for me also.

What I would say is that, although there are still issues outside the ME that need a bit of adjustment to become a bit more realistic I am still amazed at times at just how realistic some AI decisions can be. For me the game gets so much right that when it gets it wrong it stands out like a sore thumb. The gameplay outside of the ME is simply superb in my opinion. As it should be. It’s had a good few years of SI love.

For me overall immersion is not the issue. The issue, as you’ve stated, is the ME. 

The game is so close to being what we all want it to be. The next few years MUST be focused on getting the ME right.

The question is do you think SI can do it?

Personally I still have faith. Mainly because I’m not as upset with this current ME as most. It’s become a little sterile since the last patch. But it’s still playable, for me.

But I can see how it’s a tipping point for some. It’s genuinely sad for me that many feel this way. Especially all of us who’ve had it in our lives for so long. I grew up with Star Wars. I put Jedi as my religion in the 2011(?) census. (Bit silly but who cares) Then my religion got torn to pieces and I haven’t even seen the last film, yet.

Is FM really dead? I didn’t buy it for 2 years back in ... I can’t remember when, 2010, 2011? because I felt like not enough was changing. Taking a break did me the world of good with it.

This doesn’t need to be the end. Keep the faith.

In a way, yes, the game has very high potential with the ME being fixed. 

But I don't think we've been given any indication by SI that they will actually focus on the ME. Like I said, I've been enjoying it less year after year. It hasn't been getting better, it has been getting worse. I seriously had to ask myself how they let the 1on1 issue get so bad in the 20.2 patch. It feels like they solely focus on other gimmicks in the game rather than the ME, which is why I mentioned a bit more transparency on their end, like Paradox Interactive, may do them so good. I also know this is a two way street, as players we then have to have the commitment to engage with SI in a positive way, help them with the game, report bugs rather than just complaining. 

Would I be up for that? Yes, IF I felt I was getting some interaction from SI. I'm not. My concerns about this FM20 have always been swept under the carpet. Correct me if I am wrong, but I haven't really heard SI address the tactical critiques of the game properly other than trying to make excuses or just saying "it's your tactics". 

I've raised a million times that I think one of the biggest issues is that team morale is faaaaaaar too influential, I've made posts a lot of people have upvoted and agreed on that I thought were well explained, but SI never responds to them so what is the point? I'm posting now to vent my frustrations at "losing my religion", but I don't seriously think SI give a damn what I think about the game. Miles makes his money, gets some interviews in the paper and that's all that counts. 

 

[GOODNAME]

In the ME bugs section the developers have said "This is under review" for a lot of posts.

I wonder if that means in the next patch the ME will be updated 

[Travis Bickle]

3 minutes ago, GOODNAME said:

In the ME bugs section the developers have said "This is under review" for a lot of posts.

I wonder if that means in the next patch the ME will be updated 

Highly unlikely, the next patch is a DB update. 

[GOODNAME]

1 minute ago, Travis Bickle said:

Highly unlikely, the next patch is a DB update. 

I dont know.. some of them said "we working on a quick fix"

so..

[BoGdy]

Played first 2 games with new patch.

10 goals, 5 for me, 5 for opponents.All of them from crosses.It's not Set Piece Manager anymore, it's Crossing Manager now.

It's crazy how excellent crosses are in the third norwegian league and how clinical the headers are from mediocre players with at most 1,80 m height.

It seems like Beckham is always crossing and on the other side we have a combo of Zigic/Crouchie.

This scene of Mr Bean is the best example of how SI is trying to improve the ME.

 

I gave up ! Waiting for FM21.Try to focus only on match engine, please! We don't need new features.The game will be perfect with a stable and realistic match engine.

Edited February 27, 2020 by BoGdy

[FlorianAlbert9]

11 ore fa, Tyburn ha scritto:

Eh? Why is that a bug?

Maybe it's me, but, do you think is normal to have an average attendance of 19,000 (and more in Champions League) and you board made a stadium of 10,000 ?

[Tyburn]

17 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

Maybe it's me, but, do you think is normal to have an average attendance of 19,000 (and more in Champions League) and you board made a stadium of 10,000 ?

You’re playing in somebody else’s stadium though, correct? Who are you managing and who’s stadium are you sharing?

You have a decent fanbase although probably a bit of over spill from whichever club’s stadium you’re in too. Maybe the new stadium is all your club could afford, get planning permission for? 

The attendances you’re getting from the ground share are because there is the space to accommodate them. You’ll probably sell out your new 10k stadium when you move in. You can hopefully look to expand it a bit. But different clubs/boards have different restrictions. So I don’t see this as a bug. I see it being either poor long term decisions by your board or more likely environmental restrictions.

Not a bug.

Edit* I just reread that your club is expanding your current stadium, not building a new one.

Makes it even more reasonable that’s it’s an environmental restriction.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Tyburn

[Tyburn]

43 minutes ago, Travis Bickle said:

In a way, yes, the game has very high potential with the ME being fixed. 

But I don't think we've been given any indication by SI that they will actually focus on the ME. Like I said, I've been enjoying it less year after year. It hasn't been getting better, it has been getting worse. I seriously had to ask myself how they let the 1on1 issue get so bad in the 20.2 patch. It feels like they solely focus on other gimmicks in the game rather than the ME, which is why I mentioned a bit more transparency on their end, like Paradox Interactive, may do them so good. I also know this is a two way street, as players we then have to have the commitment to engage with SI in a positive way, help them with the game, report bugs rather than just complaining. 

Would I be up for that? Yes, IF I felt I was getting some interaction from SI. I'm not. My concerns about this FM20 have always been swept under the carpet. Correct me if I am wrong, but I haven't really heard SI address the tactical critiques of the game properly other than trying to make excuses or just saying "it's your tactics". 

I've raised a million times that I think one of the biggest issues is that team morale is faaaaaaar too influential, I've made posts a lot of people have upvoted and agreed on that I thought were well explained, but SI never responds to them so what is the point? I'm posting now to vent my frustrations at "losing my religion", but I don't seriously think SI give a damn what I think about the game. Miles makes his money, gets some interviews in the paper and that's all that counts. 

 

So the lack of communication is your major concern? I agree it could be better. It would mitigate a lot of frustrations if this could be improved.

However I disagree whole heartedly with the notion that SI don’t care. It’s their baby for gods sake. They’ve given it to us and we sit here ripping it to shreads like a pack of wild dogs. This ME ‘crisis’ will be very painful for them. To think they do not care is just crazy, in my view.

Which is why I have faith that the ME will be what is now focused on in the next few years.

I can understand the frustrations but the perspecrtive here is getting a bit lost.

Losing faith is painful. But to say SI don’t care I just do not buy.

[FlorianAlbert9]

15 minuti fa, Tyburn ha scritto:

You’re playing in somebody else’s stadium though, correct? Who are you managing and who’s stadium are you sharing?

You have a decent fanbase although probably a bit of over spill from whichever club’s stadium you’re in too. Maybe the new stadium is all your club could afford, get planning permission for? 

The attendances you’re getting from the ground share are because there is the space to accommodate them. You’ll probably sell out your new 10k stadium when you move in. You can hopefully look to expand it a bit. But different clubs/boards have different restrictions. So I don’t see this as a bug. I see it being either poor long term decisions by your board or more likely environmental restrictions.

Not a bug.

Correct, I don't play in my stadium. that's the point.

What is the sense of expands  the stadium every year, so that in the last 3 year I play 2 in another stadium (and obviously all the continental games).

In the last 4 year my max attendance was : 22.000, 13.977, 22.000, 32.501. 

Average: 7209, 7.616, 9.281 and (half season) 20.033

So that when my stadium will be ready at march, I have space for half the attendance. (6900 now, 10000 at march), so the board probabily will plan another upgrade and so on. 

(i have plus than 128 millions that is 30 times the current balance of any teams irl - in Hungary-)

Edited February 27, 2020 by FlorianAlbert9

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

Correct, I don't play in my stadium. that's the point.

What is the sense of expands  the stadium every year, so that in the last 3 year I play 2 in another stadium (and obviously all the continental games).

In the last 4 year my max attendance was : 22.000, 13.977, 22.000, 32.501. 

Average: 7209, 7.616, 9.281 and (half season) 20.033

So that when my stadium will be ready at march, I have space for half the attendance. (6900 now, 10000 at march), so the board probabily will plan another upgrade and so on. 

Which club are you managing? Boards are all different, as are clubs and their circumstances. This all sounds realistic to me. Painful. But not a bug in my opinion.

[Old Joe Clarke]

Post it in the curiosity forum, it is not a bug.

Be thankful for all the gate money you are getting...

[Pasonen]

1 hour ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

Correct, I don't play in my stadium. that's the point.

What is the sense of expands  the stadium every year, so that in the last 3 year I play 2 in another stadium (and obviously all the continental games).

In the last 4 year my max attendance was : 22.000, 13.977, 22.000, 32.501. 

Average: 7209, 7.616, 9.281 and (half season) 20.033

So that when my stadium will be ready at march, I have space for half the attendance. (6900 now, 10000 at march), so the board probabily will plan another upgrade and so on. 

(i have plus than 128 millions that is 30 times the current balance of any teams irl - in Hungary-)

I think it could be a bug or thats the maximum building plan team gets. Better post it to bugs forum to be sure. My friend and I talk about this stadium expansion subject in every fm.

[craigcwwe]

6 hours ago, Travis Bickle said:

It's gotten a lot more pronounced in recent years.

What I do know is that as late as FM16, I was confident that with the right tactical system I could play in any fashion, in any formation. It was a large chunk of why I loved this game. I'd challenge myself to build the ultimate Simeone counter-attacking, 4-4-2. The ultimate possession based 3-5-2. The ultimate tika-taka 4-1-2-3. You get the point. I'd get audacious and then try to successfully implement a Brazilian box 4-2-2-2 formation or a Bielsa 3-3-1-3. 

In the last editions of the game that's just not possible imo. FM18 was broken by strikerless formation I believe, FM19 got broken by two striker formations combined with crosses/throw-in exploits, and FM20 is too random I don't even know what works but I'm fairly sure the trick is quick counters relying on wingers with high finishing cutting inside. My motivation to play the game is gone, because what is the point? My ideal style of football will never be successfully replicated in this game whereas a style of football I am not that fond of is what is successful. 

I've harped on about this for years, but the inability of strikers to finish their chances has been made far worse on this years FM too. Evident by the low scoring records of even AI strikers in game and this is after patches improving the issue. It seems like SI just don't see an issue with this, which is something I have to accept, as I have been moaning about this for years, but I'm glad that others on this site have noticed how it is an issue in this years game. 

It goes back to what I said in my original post. This game has gotten unnecessarily complicated without actually getting more realistic. It's a whole load of gimmicks. I'd really just kill for SI to go back to what made their game so legendary in the first place. A solid tactical system and the ability to recruit players. I think instead of adding development centres, new staff roles, changing the way staff responsibilities work and all of that, they should spend a year focusing on the ME. It's been neglected for far too long. They seem to think they need gimmicks to sell, they don't. Make the ME unbelievably realistic, keep scouting/recruitment of players what it is, leave the rest for now and watch as you create the best football game ever.  Football Manager's ME should be the gold standard of what simulated football should look like. 

I honestly hate to say this, really, because I've never liked FIFA, but FIFA 20 seemed to replicate real football better than FM's ME this year and I've heard a lot of people complain about FIFA. PES does by a country mile.They do at least resemble real football. 

I really challenge anyone who disagrees with me to go and watch a full match on Football Manager. The whole 90 minutes. Speed it up a bit of course. And then ask yourself if that matches the kind of football you see on the television? Additionally compare FM20 to FM12's ME or even FM15 and see what you think. The presentation has gotten better but the actual match experience is way worse. 

I get that SI probably don't care because the game sells and we're probably just a minority of dedicated players on the net trying to make the game even better, but I think they should. Your core fanbase is what drives your business forward in the long-run and complacency is a killer. This game has no soul, no authenticity, it's not immersive anymore, it just feels clunky, random and gimmicky. I don't enjoy playing it. I think I have some kind of euphoric recall in which I load the game expecting to be transported back to my memories of FM12 but the practical reality is, FM20 brings me absolutely no enjoyment whether I win or lose. Winning on FM20 doesn't feel enjoyable because I don't think I've earned it or can pinpoint why I won. It could just be the overpowered team dynamics meaning everyone was in fantastic morale, it could just be that I signed the right winger to cut inside and score from a counter attack when in reality I wish I was just dominating possession. 

Likewise, when I lose with what I feel is a superior tactical setup, I know it may not be down to my tactics rather that my star captain has decided he wants to leave for CL football, plummeting the entire team's morale... even though we've made the CL Semi Final 3 years in a row and he leaves for a team in the Europa League. I might be losing because my World Cup winning 33 year old MC decides he is "nervous" against a battered Genoa team in an Italian Cup final for no reason. We could be losing because I insist on trying to replicate a possession based style of football which simply doesn't work with FM20's ME even if that system is very close to what won Spain the World Cup. 

Anyway, you get my point. I've had to realise that this won't change. SI have taken a direction that I don't agree with. They insist on complicating the game with gimmicks I don't care for, neglecting the ME and implementing a style of football I disagree with. 

On top of this, as a final point, I think as the game has progressed the kind of stuff that happens in the game is getting more and more stupid and unrealistic, from a database stand-point. Teams sign players they would never sign irl, managers make moves they would never make irl. Events happen that would never happen irl.  Here's an example from my last save, Simeone wins the league with Atléti, gets sacked next season 4 points off of 4th after 24 games and then joins...Arsenal. I'm an Arsenal fan, but this would never happen in real life and he would never get sacked after just winning the leagues. English teams also totally dominate continental competition. I know England is in a good place right now, but the game follows no cycle on continental domination (like we have seen over the last 30 years). What I'm saying is after a while the game starts to look like a parody from a database perspective. And I'll stand by this, even FIFA's Career Mode isn't as ridiculous. 

So like I said, I'll have to try and fill my time with something else. Not easy given how much I've loved this game, but it has to be done. Even this morning I felt like reinstalling it and giving it another go, but I know there's no point. I'll do it and get upset with the same frustrations. If I have to play anything it'll be Europa Universalis IV, and I think that's a game SI could learn a lot from in terms of engaging with the customer base and transparency. 

 

 

First of all, fantastic post.  

I think this year's FM has seen quite a lot of frustration across the board, on here, on twitter, reddit and content creators on YT and Twitch with the various issues that the game has. Some you mention there, the ME first and foremost. I won't go as far as to say that it's 'broken' but it has lost that....well, soul as you mentioned there. I think this has been an 'issue' for at least the last two games really. The more gimmicks and off the field stuff that's been added to the game it's feels like the ME has been left behind. Now obviously that's not strictly the case, they'd have worked on the ME all the time but it's clearly in need of some love and attention much like the new defensive options we got starting in FM19. As I posted in this thread the other day, I'd now expect that to happen over the next couple of games to bring it up to scratch and to balance out the defensive and attacking play. 

Over in the tactics sub forum it's been pretty quiet this year with some of the more regular contributors to that particular section not really posting much/anything this FM and I put that down to the state of the ME. You almost feel forced into one particular style of play and formation to be successful and when you see what systems/formations people are playing, it's mostly the same way, you know, ultra high pressing, gegenpress etc etc, boring. Where's the balance? The diversity? This is what I mean when I say the ME almost funnels you into a set playstyle otherwise...good luck. 

Your point on dynamics, team and player morale I 100% get. This is another issue that has slowly been creeping up more and more the last couple of games. Is it realistic? Maybe. Is it fun? Not really. Sure you might get a problem with a player who's head has been turned by the lure of Real Madrid when you're managing a EL side for example and that's realistic and understandable but the rate at which your players develop issues is far too high, it's almost like you are managing a creche and not a football side of grown men. 

Morale is OP as heck. When you've got arrows pointed to the sky you feel like you can win every game but when everyone has a problem and you're in a spell of poor form it's difficult to turn it around, not impossible but difficult. Is it realistic? Maybe, is it fun? Not really. 

Sure we want to be challenged in games and season after season, we don't want to win every game and have strikers that score 60 goals a season like they are Messi or Ronaldo reincarnated but you have to find the right balance and judging by what I've experienced on my own saves and reading others' opinions it seems it's gone too far the other way at this point. 

And for those that say 'Play FMT' Well, why should we play the 'dumbed down' version to get around certain issues? 

The issues with central play and strikers lack of goals and general movement was exacerbated in FM19 and it's gotten worse in FM20 despite multiple patches. To win games on this version you simply play gegenpress every game and whip crosses into the box and rely on set pieces. No variety and that's where the frustration is coming from in part. Like you post there, in years gone by, FM18 and prior you'd have allsorts of tactical ideas that you could successfully implement in the game because the ME would allow for it but that's been lost now. Can we get it back? Sure but it's going to take time. 

The shouts are another issue. Anytime you shout some encouragement to your players they get red reactions. It makes them nervous or anxious and basically spurs the other team on because your players lose something mentally for a few minutes until the effect has worn off. You're best off just using demand more and show some passion for the most part. 

So yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with your post and sentiments. Let's hope SI can get back on track in the coming versions of the game. 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by craigcwwe

[kingjericho]

3 hours ago, WynnZeroOne said:

*citation needed*

I see no proof that it's a small group of people. It's a narrative driven every year by a minority who want less features, but SI responded ages ago with FMT and other automation for that the folks that don't want to play the full experience. No developer is about to start dumbing down their core product on the basis of sweeping forum generalisms.

I'm speaking from my personal experience and feedback I see around here, and I'm aware that the SI Forum represents 1-5% of all FM players.

I can't imagine the casual players who isn't interested in discussing their save in a forum, report bugs, discuss tactics, etc will explore all the detail of Opta stats, mentoring groups, daily training routines, media handling, social networks, and so on. But this is just my opinion. 

[Caletti]

I think it can be summed up in such a way that the game is beautifully packaged but what is most important inside, i.e. the match engine is far from ideal. I hope that in the next versions of the game the greatest focus will be on the match engine.

[Travis Bickle]

31 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

First of all, fantastic post.  

Thank you. You bring up some excellent points I'd like to expand on. 

Quote

Over in the tactics sub forum it's been pretty quiet this year with some of the more regular contributors to that particular section not really posting much/anything this FM and I put that down to the state of the ME. You almost feel forced into one particular style of play and formation to be successful and when you see what systems/formations people are playing, it's mostly the same way, you know, ultra high pressing, gegenpress etc etc, boring. Where's the balance? The diversity? This is what I mean when I say the ME almost funnels you into a set playstyle otherwise...good luck. 

This is exactly something I wanted to mention in my original post actually.  It might be the most important point for SI to take.

I remember the tactics forum booming with discussion. There were a plethora of threads containing different players offering advice on how to implement tactical styles from various managers. I'm a football nerd, and Football Manager goes hand in hand with my addiction. Reading those threads and then offering pointers on how to tweak a tactical setup in FM to replicate a particular style was so much fun. I remember helping create Zdenek Zeman's 4-3-3 with its insane attacking ability. You were leaky at the back but you acknowledged it was part of your tactical setup. Over the years there were amazing threads on Sacchi's Milan, Bielsa's 3-3-1-3, Totaalvoetbal etc...where has that all gone? 

My single best moment in gaming, when gaming actually made me feel happy, was when I replicated Diego Simeone's 4-4-2 in FM15. I wanted to come up with a tactic that was exactly like the tactic that won them the league. I did it, whilst reading pointers from a Simeone 4-4-2 thread in the tactics forum. Tweaking that tactic to perfection was an absolute joy, especially when I finally pulled the style of play off. The tactic being unbeatable (and it was, I won everywhere I went) wasn't the joy, the joy was that it really looked like a Simeone team playing. 

The ironic thing is, the one thing I felt that was holding that tactic back was the inability to instruct the players to counter-press and defend very narrow. Well guess what? Now on FM20 I have the ability to do that, and I feel far less able to replicate that tactic on FM20 than I did back in FM15. That's why I can say comfortably that in my view, FM has regressed in its tactical system. It's not about winning, I can win if I Gegenpress  4-4-1-1 but where's the fun in being limited to a play style that doesn't appeal to me?

This is what I mean, the debates over tactics, analysing different tactical systems and coming up with your own renditions i largely gone, which means FM has lost its soul for me. 

Quote

 

Your point on dynamics, team and player morale I 100% get. This is another issue that has slowly been creeping up more and more the last couple of games. Is it realistic? Maybe. Is it fun? Not really. Sure you might get a problem with a player who's head has been turned by the lure of Real Madrid when you're managing a EL side for example and that's realistic and understandable but the rate at which your players develop issues is far too high, it's almost like you are managing a creche and not a football side of grown men. 

Morale is OP as heck. When you've got arrows pointed to the sky you feel like you can win every game but when everyone has a problem and you're in a spell of poor form it's difficult to turn it around, not impossible but difficult? Is it realistic? Maybe, is it fun? Not really. 

 

 

I honestly don't think it is realistic, and I'll give you a clear example. I went unemployed low rep journeyman. I got a job at a Spanish Third Division side who were well deep into relegation. In 14 games we'd W10, D2, L2, we were on an 8 game win streak, in mid-table, I had no problems with the players. All of a sudden there's a morale drop because "the players can't get past my lack of inexperience" and I almost get sacked due to the resulting form. This happens way too often. Morale is now the biggest decider if you win or not. I said this in the last thread... we went from 1) Recruitment being the most important part of succeeding, tactics and morale neglected, to, 2) Tactics being the most important of succeeding, recruitment and morale neglected, and now it is 3) Morale is by far the most important indication of success. 

I know SI want to make it seem like they've improved interaction and engagement but in reality it is just another example of over complicating the game. 

 

Quote

And for those that say 'Play FMT' Well, why should we play the 'dumbed down' version to get around certain issues? 

I hate that response. Why should I play a dumbed down version of the game because the main version of the game has issues? 

[szp]

3 hours ago, Tyburn said:

So the lack of communication is your major concern? I agree it could be better. It would mitigate a lot of frustrations if this could be improved.

However I disagree whole heartedly with the notion that SI don’t care. It’s their baby for gods sake. They’ve given it to us and we sit here ripping it to shreads like a pack of wild dogs. This ME ‘crisis’ will be very painful for them. To think they do not care is just crazy, in my view.

Which is why I have faith that the ME will be what is now focused on in the next few years.

I can understand the frustrations but the perspecrtive here is getting a bit lost.

Losing faith is painful. But to say SI don’t care I just do not buy.

I really think ME is so messed up right now, that SI is simply unable to make it work properly. They won't admit it, but if they would be able to fix the most annoying issues, it would've been done already. We have 4th or 5th version of ME in FM20 and it's still really far from being at least acceptable. 

[Tyburn]

4 minutes ago, szp said:

I really think ME is so messed up right now, that SI is simply unable to make it work properly. They won't admit it, but if they would be able to fix the most annoying issues, it would've been done already. We have 4th or 5th version of ME in FM20 and it's still really far from being at least acceptable. 

Future releases. Not necessarily this versions ME.

[szp]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ME isn't build from scratch each year, right? So it doesn't really matter if it's future or current release. They gonna work on the same code in FM21,I guess...

[FM1000]

The biggest issue i have with the ME is that the player attributes are largely ignored. For example the midgets IF who score header after header even though they have heading under 10. Thats why the game feels random.

I am not saying Messi has never scored a header but there is a reason he is not banging them every night. The ME calculates that your IF is alone on the far post, unmarked, the cross reaches him and even thou he has heading 8 he scores a header. Which is fine if it was 1 goal in 12 attempts. But every third attempt is a headed goal. With heading 8. Against Premier League keeper. I can understand in League 1 or League 2. But even against championship level keeper with heading 8 you should not be able to score every 3 header. With heading 8.

And with finishing its the other way around. 18 finishing and my IF needs 10 shoots on goal to score one goal. This the random feel everyone gets from this ME.

Edited February 27, 2020 by FM1000

[Rupal]

4 hours ago, WynnZeroOne said:

*citation needed*

I see no proof that it's a small group of people. It's a narrative driven every year by a minority who want less features, but SI responded ages ago with FMT and other automation for that the folks that don't want to play the full experience. No developer is about to start dumbing down their core product on the basis of sweeping forum generalisms.

But by referring to this as 'dumbing down' you are assuming what has to be proved.

I made the point in a post above that I felt that the plethora of features was possibly getting in the way of people believing that they were in control. So many different factors were affecting how things went that people felt that results were random.  By taking so much else into account, the human manager's ability to alter the course of matches was being eroded because his or her input was being outweighed by other factors.

What you call the 'full experience' may actually be less responsive to the manager than what you refer to as the 'dumbed down ' one. In other words, piling new feature upon new feature won't be giving a fuller experience, simply a more complicated one.  Is that the right way to go necessarily? 

[Travis Bickle]

4 minutes ago, FM1000 said:

The biggest issue i have with the ME is that the player attributes are largely ignored. For example the midgets IF who score header after header even though they have heading under 10. Thats why the game feels random.

I am not saying Messi has never scored a header but there is a reason he is not banging them every night. The ME calculates that your IF is alone on the far post, unmarked, the cross reaches him and even thou he has heading 8 he scores a header. Which is fine if it was 1 goal in 12 attempts. But every third attempt is a headed goal. With heading 8. Against Premier League keeper. I can understand in League 1 or League 2. But even against championship level keeper with heading 8 you should not be able to score every 3 header. With heading 8.

And with finishing its the other way around. 18 finishing and my IF needs 10 shoots on goal to score one goal. This the random feel everyone gets from this ME.

I think the other issue is we all have our own interpretation of the game of football. 

SI create the ME, and I think we're looking at a very specific interpretation of how football works right now instead of a more holistic view. It'd be nice if they were transparent about this as well. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Travis Bickle

[rafaelbenitez]

As someone who plays both the full version and FMT version, calling FMT dumbed down is a bit much. Yes, certain things are streamlined like training and player interaction but the tactics module and ME are the same as the main game minus the effects of morale and team talks.

[craigcwwe]

On 27/02/2020 at 16:16, Travis Bickle said:

Thank you. You bring up some excellent points I'd like to expand on. 

This is exactly something I wanted to mention in my original post actually.  It might be the most important point for SI to take.

I remember the tactics forum booming with discussion. There were a plethora of threads containing different players offering advice on how to implement tactical styles from various managers. I'm a football nerd, and Football Manager goes hand in hand with my addiction. Reading those threads and then offering pointers on how to tweak a tactical setup in FM to replicate a particular style was so much fun. I remember helping create Zdenek Zeman's 4-3-3 with its insane attacking ability. You were leaky at the back but you acknowledged it was part of your tactical setup. Over the years there were amazing threads on Sacchi's Milan, Bielsa's 3-3-1-3, Totaalvoetbal etc...where has that all gone? 

My single best moment in gaming, when gaming actually made me feel happy, was when I replicated Diego Simeone's 4-4-2 in FM15. I wanted to come up with a tactic that was exactly like the tactic that won them the league. I did it, whilst reading pointers from a Simeone 4-4-2 thread in the tactics forum. Tweaking that tactic to perfection was an absolute joy, especially when I finally pulled the style of play off. The tactic being unbeatable (and it was, I won everywhere I went) wasn't the joy, the joy was that it really looked like a Simeone team playing. 

The ironic thing is, the one thing I felt that was holding that tactic back was the inability to instruct the players to counter-press and defend very narrow. Well guess what? Now on FM20 I have the ability to do that, and I feel far less able to replicate that tactic on FM20 than I did back in FM15. That's why I can say comfortably that in my view, FM has regressed in its tactical system. It's not about winning, I can win if I Gegenpress  4-4-1-1 but where's the fun in being limited to a play style that doesn't appeal to me?

This is what I mean, the debates over tactics, analysing different tactical systems and coming up with your own renditions i largely gone, which means FM has lost its soul for me. 

 

I honestly don't think it is realistic, and I'll give you a clear example. I went unemployed low rep journeyman. I got a job at a Spanish Third Division side who were well deep into relegation. In 14 games we'd W10, D2, L2, we were on an 8 game win streak, in mid-table, I had no problems with the players. All of a sudden there's a morale drop because "the players can't get past my lack of inexperience" and I almost get sacked due to the resulting form. This happens way too often. Morale is now the biggest decider if you win or not. I said this in the last thread... we went from 1) Recruitment being the most important part of succeeding, tactics and morale neglected, to, 2) Tactics being the most important of succeeding, recruitment and morale neglected, and now it is 3) Morale is by far the most important indication of success. 

I know SI want to make it seem like they've improved interaction and engagement but in reality it is just another example of over complicating the game. 

 

I hate that response. Why should I play a dumbed down version of the game because the main version of the game has issues? 

Yep, the tactics subforum started to go downhill upon the release of FM19. Like you say, there used to be so many top drawer threads over there with people trying to replicate real manager's play styles, all ends of the spectrum were covered by users, was great to read people's thoughts on whatever system it may be in any particular thread but now? That's been lost. It really has. And that's down to the ME. I don't want to criticise anyone's work by saying this as I'm sure they work hard on the game and they want it to be the very best that it can be because they are fans of the game too of course but it really has lost it's soul. For me, the ME is the most important part of the game. Sure other parts are very important too, tactics and scouting etc but if you spend hours scouting players and setting up a tactic and then you get into the game and the ME cannot replicate it then really, what's the point? Why should I have to play high pressing and gegenpress etc etc on every save to do well? 

Someone else has said in this thread that adding all this extra stuff to the game is essentially taking the control away from the user because there are more things that can go wrong etc and I think that's true. With them releasing a new game every year they are under pressure to add features to the game so that when the new game is revealed a couple of months before release they can say 'new this and new that' etc, ' X amount of new features' I think we're at the point in the series now where we've seen more than enough 'new' added to the game over the past few versions that we need 'refine' and starting with the ME and take some cues from what you released previously to rectify the issues in said ME right now. 

It really is quite strange that, how is it that you can better create a Diego Simeone playstyle on a five year old game than you can on a game that came out less than 6 months ago and has new defensive options which in theory should make it easier to create that particular playstyle?

I've had a similar experience to yours with the low rep manager. Started in the second division, no badges, finished in 5th place the first season, promoted 3-4 youth players in the second season, lost my best player but he wasn't far and away better than the rest and was battling relegation before getting the sack. I changed nothing tactically. The difference? Morale. Players wanting to leave for bigger clubs and downing tools. Players wanting new contracts. Downing tools in the process. Criticise a sub par training session? Morale drop and bad form. Realistic? Maybe. Fun? Not so much. 

On FM17 and FM18 for example I've had saves where player recruitment was the big factor to how we did and progressed over the course of the save, bringing a club up from the bottom was in part to how you recruited but like you mention in your post, that's not the biggest factor anymore. Sure it counts of course but morale rules all. Morale is king. Both ways. It's too OP when in good form and too OP when in bad form. 

It's going to be interesting to see what the sales figures and player counts are for FM21 after the feedback we've read and seen this year. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by craigcwwe

[Tony Wright 747]

8 hours ago, Travis Bickle said:

It's gotten a lot more pronounced in recent years.

What I do know is that as late as FM16, I was confident that with the right tactical system I could play in any fashion, in any formation. It was a large chunk of why I loved this game. I'd challenge myself to build the ultimate Simeone counter-attacking, 4-4-2. The ultimate possession based 3-5-2. The ultimate tika-taka 4-1-2-3. You get the point. I'd get audacious and then try to successfully implement a Brazilian box 4-2-2-2 formation or a Bielsa 3-3-1-3. 

In the last editions of the game that's just not possible imo. FM18 was broken by strikerless formation I believe, FM19 got broken by two striker formations combined with crosses/throw-in exploits, and FM20 is too random I don't even know what works but I'm fairly sure the trick is quick counters relying on wingers with high finishing cutting inside. My motivation to play the game is gone, because what is the point? My ideal style of football will never be successfully replicated in this game whereas a style of football I am not that fond of is what is successful. 

I've harped on about this for years, but the inability of strikers to finish their chances has been made far worse on this years FM too. Evident by the low scoring records of even AI strikers in game and this is after patches improving the issue. It seems like SI just don't see an issue with this, which is something I have to accept, as I have been moaning about this for years, but I'm glad that others on this site have noticed how it is an issue in this years game. 

It goes back to what I said in my original post. This game has gotten unnecessarily complicated without actually getting more realistic. It's a whole load of gimmicks. I'd really just kill for SI to go back to what made their game so legendary in the first place. A solid tactical system and the ability to recruit players. I think instead of adding development centres, new staff roles, changing the way staff responsibilities work and all of that, they should spend a year focusing on the ME. It's been neglected for far too long. They seem to think they need gimmicks to sell, they don't. Make the ME unbelievably realistic, keep scouting/recruitment of players what it is, leave the rest for now and watch as you create the best football game ever.  Football Manager's ME should be the gold standard of what simulated football should look like. 

I honestly hate to say this, really, because I've never liked FIFA, but FIFA 20 seemed to replicate real football better than FM's ME this year and I've heard a lot of people complain about FIFA. PES does by a country mile.They do at least resemble real football. 

I really challenge anyone who disagrees with me to go and watch a full match on Football Manager. The whole 90 minutes. Speed it up a bit of course. And then ask yourself if that matches the kind of football you see on the television? Additionally compare FM20 to FM12's ME or even FM15 and see what you think. The presentation has gotten better but the actual match experience is way worse. 

I get that SI probably don't care because the game sells and we're probably just a minority of dedicated players on the net trying to make the game even better, but I think they should. Your core fanbase is what drives your business forward in the long-run and complacency is a killer. This game has no soul, no authenticity, it's not immersive anymore, it just feels clunky, random and gimmicky. I don't enjoy playing it. I think I have some kind of euphoric recall in which I load the game expecting to be transported back to my memories of FM12 but the practical reality is, FM20 brings me absolutely no enjoyment whether I win or lose. Winning on FM20 doesn't feel enjoyable because I don't think I've earned it or can pinpoint why I won. It could just be the overpowered team dynamics meaning everyone was in fantastic morale, it could just be that I signed the right winger to cut inside and score from a counter attack when in reality I wish I was just dominating possession. 

Likewise, when I lose with what I feel is a superior tactical setup, I know it may not be down to my tactics rather that my star captain has decided he wants to leave for CL football, plummeting the entire team's morale... even though we've made the CL Semi Final 3 years in a row and he leaves for a team in the Europa League. I might be losing because my World Cup winning 33 year old MC decides he is "nervous" against a battered Genoa team in an Italian Cup final for no reason. We could be losing because I insist on trying to replicate a possession based style of football which simply doesn't work with FM20's ME even if that system is very close to what won Spain the World Cup. 

Anyway, you get my point. I've had to realise that this won't change. SI have taken a direction that I don't agree with. They insist on complicating the game with gimmicks I don't care for, neglecting the ME and implementing a style of football I disagree with. 

On top of this, as a final point, I think as the game has progressed the kind of stuff that happens in the game is getting more and more stupid and unrealistic, from a database stand-point. Teams sign players they would never sign irl, managers make moves they would never make irl. Events happen that would never happen irl.  Here's an example from my last save, Simeone wins the league with Atléti, gets sacked next season 4 points off of 4th after 24 games and then joins...Arsenal. I'm an Arsenal fan, but this would never happen in real life and he would never get sacked after just winning the leagues. English teams also totally dominate continental competition. I know England is in a good place right now, but the game follows no cycle on continental domination (like we have seen over the last 30 years). What I'm saying is after a while the game starts to look like a parody from a database perspective. And I'll stand by this, even FIFA's Career Mode isn't as ridiculous. 

So like I said, I'll have to try and fill my time with something else. Not easy given how much I've loved this game, but it has to be done. Even this morning I felt like reinstalling it and giving it another go, but I know there's no point. I'll do it and get upset with the same frustrations. If I have to play anything it'll be Europa Universalis IV, and I think that's a game SI could learn a lot from in terms of engaging with the customer base and transparency. 

 

 

I pretty much agree with everything you say here, which is why I am still playing FM16 and loving it.  If the game carries on going in the same direction it seems to be going in, I can see this being the case for a few years to come

[Travis Bickle]

2 hours ago, craigcwwe said:

Yep, the tactics subforum started to go downhill upon the release of FM19. Like you say, there used to be so many top drawer threads over there with people trying to replicated real manager's play styles, all ends of the spectrum were covered by users, was great to read people's thoughts on whatever system it may be in any particular thread but now? That's been lost. It really has. And that's down to the ME. I don't want to criticise anyone's work by saying this as I'm sure they work hard on the game and they want it to be the very best that it can be because they are fans of the game too of course but it really has lost it's soul. For me, the ME is the most important part of the game. Sure other parts are very important too, tactics and scouting etc but if you spend hours scouting players and setting up a tactic and then you get into the game and the ME cannot replicate it then really, what's the point? Why should I have to play high pressing and gegenpress etc etc on every save to do well? 

Someone else has said in this thread that adding all this extra stuff to the game is essentially taking the control away from the user because there are more things that can go wrong etc and I think that's true. With them releasing a new game every year they are under pressure to add features to the game so that when the new game is revealed a couple of months before release they can say 'new this and new that' etc, ' X amount of new features' I think we're at the point in the series now where we've seen more than enough 'new' added to the game over the past few versions that we need 'refine' and starting with the ME and take some cues from what you released previously to rectify the issues in said ME right now. 

I get the position SI are in. They need new features to market the game with upon a new release. Simply saying "we've upgraded an ME that should have already been working" doesn't give them much marketing collateral to write, but I am almost certain that from a gameplay perspective they'd absolutely storm it. In addition, I've been willing to buy the last few FMs just on the basis that I enjoyed FM17 enough that I am willing to give it another go. But eventually your patience runs thin. A really solid FM21 with a good ME and realistic tactical systems would restore everyone's faith in the product again. I'd be willing to give them two patches to get it right too. But I fear that's not what we'll see. 

Quote

It really is quite strange that, how is it that you can better create a Diego Simeone playstyle on a five year old game than you can on a game that came out less than 6 months ago and has new defensive options which in theory should make it easier to create that particular playstyle?

imo goes back to what I said that the ME was better or at least made more sense back then. When I get this obsessional thing when I want to emulate a real life manager's way of play, I watch the whole 90 minutes of the match on ME and really focus on things like player positioning and player movement. This year's FM really lets you see some stupid movement to the point I don't even bother watching games anymore. It's just an example of how the joy has been lost for me. Winning on FM feels more like a mechanical thing of knowing what to exploit rather than developing a philosophy of football and implementing it. 

Just thinking of it, I used to spend hours, and I do mean hours, scouting every nation in the game for players that fit my tactical system. Say with the Simeone tactic I'd look for high work rate, high determination, high aggression, high bravery players at the expense of other attributes. When I found myself a deep lying forward or BWM that fit my system I was ecstatic. I just don't feel that excitement anymore. I can find a youth player and know that as long as he fits the basic requirements for Gegenpress football then so what? Even if he's not that good, as long as I keep his morale up we'll win. 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I pretty much agree with everything you say here, which is why I am still playing FM16 and loving it.  If the game carries on going in the same direction it seems to be going in, I can see this being the case for a few years to come

Thank you. Honestly with the EL on it just feels right firing up FM and playing whilst watching. But I know it's going to be more frustration again and just not worth it. 

[Travis Bickle]

@Neil Brock

Out of interest, I feel I've made two good posts here, 

Do you guys read what we say or not? Cause I feel the effort taken to write it may be half worth it if it actually gets through to you guys lol. 

[Southsideeagles]

Hey guys, I just bought the game which includes the January update. I’m wondering if there’s a way to do a save without the January transfer squad updates? So I can start with the same squads that started in the real life 19/20 season. Cheers

[MatthewS17]

To be honest, I'm finding a massive qualm in the fact they aren't bothered to hotfix the disabled transfer window issues, or the missing links to staff pages, etc. 

I have and will never play a game without that first window disabled. 

Never mind we can't criticize the testing for not spotting something that's in your face. 

Approach seems pretty much "We'll fix it when we want to and you can just wait and see until then. If you don't like it, too bad. 

This time, every year, the new edition becomes prioritized without fixing the issues of the old. Happened with FM18, FM19, and probably now with FM20. 

This is my last FM version. So I'm actually hoping for it to be fixed. But I'm done with being dragged down into this pit of disappointment surrounding FM every year. The game in itself has become heavily predictable and boring. And a game that's about control and setup doesn't actually read what you want to do and follows a set structure. No pretty additions will change that. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by MatthewS17

[Mush1983]

38 minutes ago, Southsideeagles said:

Hey guys, I just bought the game which includes the January update. I’m wondering if there’s a way to do a save without the January transfer squad updates? So I can start with the same squads that started in the real life 19/20 season. Cheers

On start screen press career top right should say 20.3 click on it change it to 20.1 for original dB 

[Rashidi]

4 hours ago, craigcwwe said:

Yep, the tactics subforum started to go downhill upon the release of FM19. Like you say, there used to be so many top drawer threads over there with people trying to replicated real manager's play styles, all ends of the spectrum were covered by users, was great to read people's thoughts on whatever system it may be in any particular thread but now? That's been lost. It really has.

Actually most people stopped posting threads here and left because of the toxicity, and have moved on to other channels to discuss the game. So its not cos of any perceived drop in quality of the game, but something else. At least that's what I've been told by the majority of people who used to post quality pieces on the forum. They just aren't interested anymore. The downloads sub forum is still very active. 

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Rashidi said:

Actually most people stopped posting threads here and left because of the toxicity, and have moved on to other channels to discuss the game. So its not cos of any perceived drop in quality of the game, but something else. At least that's what I've been told by the majority of people who used to post quality pieces on the forum. They just aren't interested anymore.

That was certainly the case with Herne

[craigcwwe]

18 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Actually most people stopped posting threads here and left because of the toxicity, and have moved on to other channels to discuss the game. So its not cos of any perceived drop in quality of the game, but something else. At least that's what I've been told by the majority of people who used to post quality pieces on the forum. They just aren't interested anymore. The downloads sub forum is still very active. 

I see. Wasn't aware that the tactics sub forum was particularly toxic tbf. 

[99]

2 horas atrás, MatthewS17 disse:

To be honest, I'm finding a massive qualm in the fact they aren't bothered to hotfix the disabled transfer window issues, or the missing links to staff pages, etc. 

I have and will never play a game without that first window disabled. 

Never mind we can't criticize the testing for not spotting something that's in your face. 

Approach seems pretty much "We'll fix it when we want to and you can just wait and see until then. If you don't like it, too bad. 

This time, every year, the new edition becomes prioritized without fixing the issues of the old. Happened with FM18, FM19, and probably now with FM20. 

This is my last FM version. So I'm actually hoping for it to be fixed. But I'm done with being dragged down into this pit of disappointment surrounding FM every year. The game in itself has become heavily predictable and boring. And a game that's about control and setup doesn't actually read what you want to do and follows a set structure. No pretty additions will change that. 

Yes, it's the first time I felt there is a problem here... I don't believe not one single tester missed something so big and so obvious, unless it wasn't even tested that way. This update didn't go well for SI and the so far unability to fix it, even worse.

29 minutos atrás, Rashidi disse:

Actually most people stopped posting threads here and left because of the toxicity, and have moved on to other channels to discuss the game. So its not cos of any perceived drop in quality of the game, but something else. At least that's what I've been told by the majority of people who used to post quality pieces on the forum. They just aren't interested anymore. The downloads sub forum is still very active. 

Also true, I belong to active FM groups with great discussions. Fan base is strong worldwide. And there was a time I had to leave this forums cause of that toxicity.

Edited February 27, 2020 by 99