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Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread


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6 minutes ago, kalokalitokalo said:

 

In match, not in match engine. Changing physics can alter situations and decision making can be different for example. So not that impossible.

The only way to change everything in match would be through changing elements in the match engine. Looking at the long list of things claimed to be changed, you'd need to be playing with the match AI which he can't. Labouring the point here, but as @santy001 said it's really overhyping what can be done. Can't be made any clearer that it cant do all what its claiming to do. And its misinforming those who take a look.

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I do think there's been a bit of an overreaction here. The modder is clearly not fluent in English, so some of the language he uses is indeed a bit sensationalist (REALISM!!! EXACTLY LIKE FIFA!!!!) which doesn't help his case for trustworthiness, not exactly the best "snake oil" technique ironically.

If people are enjoying it, let it go and see how it can develop. So far, feedback seems to be on the positive side for it to blow up like it has. Certainly from my own experiences, seeing things such as through balls, more 1vs1 finishing, realistic crossing, curve and my wingers actually beating a man is fun for me. I'm sure it's not going to be perfect at all, but I'd rather see Mods and SI staff at least encourage some discussion for feedback purposes rather than cast it aside automatically.

Edited by Deego619
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There's equally valid feedback in coming on to say you like taking over another AI team, selling all their best players to your team for free while sinking all of their cash into your unwanted players. 

You can enjoy it, you can find it great fun to play that way. Actually holds zero value in terms of feedback because the main game is never going to shift in that direction.

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15 minutes ago, santy001 said:

There's equally valid feedback in coming on to say you like taking over another AI team, selling all their best players to your team for free while sinking all of their cash into your unwanted players. 

You can enjoy it, you can find it great fun to play that way. Actually holds zero value in terms of feedback because the main game is never going to shift in that direction.

Also it's hard to have a discussion on its merits when it claims to do things that it literally cannot do, like create through balls

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hace 8 horas, themadsheep2001 dijo:

Also it's hard to have a discussion on its merits when it claims to do things that it literally cannot do, like create through balls

Are you sure that a change in physics can’t generate more through balls for example? Because I’m not as sure without being part of the development team.

For example, if the players accelerate, turn and move faster with the changes, related to their attributes, it could lead to a quick and agile striker being able to move faster between defenders and to be available for the through pass.

But that is just trying to use common sense, I’m not part of SI either so I can’t know for sure the effects that changing the game physics can have for the good or the bad nor the balance, nor do you, so let’s not throw out unproven premises to discredit other unproven premises.

If you know the game code and are part of SI, then sorry for this comment.

Edited by Icy
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35 minutes ago, Icy said:

Are you sure that a change in physics can generate more through balls for example? Because I’m not as sure without being part of the development team.

For example, if the players accelerate, turn and move faster with the changes, related to their attributes, it could lead to a quick and agile striker being able to move faster between defenders and to be available for the through pass.

But that is just trying to use common sense, I’m not part of SI either so I can’t know for sure the effects that changing the game physics can have, nor do you, so let’s not throw out unproven premises to discredit other unproven premises.

If you know the game code and are part of SI, then sorry for this comment.

Anyone can open the JSON file with notepad and fiddle like the person has, it's very easy. As @santy001 has already said we've been filled in on this already, we've seen it and, you've already had SI tell you what It can't. To be absolutely blunt, it cannot do what it says. It has no bearing on decisions so it cannot force the player to even make the decision to try the through ball

Even if you don't want to listen to us, you've already had SI tell you what it affects and can't affect. It's already been proven by SI. Hence Neil taking the time to post and tell you. 

Maybe it's an example of the day and age, but it's a good example of how misinformation spreads when people passing on information from people who actually know how it works, are ignored in favour of hearsay and people telling them what they want to hear. 

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15 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Aye, messing with a physics file isn't reinventing the wheel. It's something the devs would have done countless times already. Knowing the devs, if there was anything they could learn from it they would have done so already. Also because it's only the physics file, there's so much of the ME that can't be touched. 

Don't think they will ever open up ME to be moddable. Supporting bug reports would be a nightmare for a start. 

Absolutely.  I see an API as more exposing certain read-only points of the game.  Being able to dump all information reliably about your club, things like that.  I doubt they'd just let you dump the database given how prized it is to them, but something that lets people make little assistants or utilities and give extra value to the game without having any kind of access to harm it.  I suspect if we haven't got anything like that by now though, it's because they either flat out don't want to, or that kind of access isn't possible.

11 hours ago, kalokalitokalo said:

And I agree with you.

But he doesn't claim to have recoded the match engine. He claims the file changes the behaviour, wich is quite different from what you are saying.

The "recoding the match engine" came from the person who had a thread locked on here, not the original maker, which I did say in the original post

Quote

saw in the locked thread there was a claim of "completely rewriting the match engine", which was...humourous

I also then went on to talk about how these things usually go.  The developer will have known exactly what he's doing.  He's tweaking the exposed parts of the engine to make things look different, and probably more appealing to him.  Great!  But it's when that's given to someone who understands none of the technical side of things, it can snowball, and you get claims like "completely rewriting the match engine".  

It reminds me of Cheat Engine, whose makers marketed it as a way of speeding up the game so well that people ate it up and swore by it.  Never mind that SI looked at it, saw that all it was really doing was making the tooltips and results scroll by faster, people swore that it made the game faster.  That's far more insidious than what we're seeing with the physics change, of course, but there's a parallel to be drawn.

EDIT: Actually, just as I posted, someone put it better than I could

  

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Maybe it's an example of the day and age, but it's a good example of how misinformation spreads when people passing on information from people who actually know how it works, are ignored in favour of hearsay and people telling them what they want to hear. 

 

Edited by forameuss
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hace 2 horas, themadsheep2001 dijo:

Anyone can open the JSON file with notepad and fiddle like the person has, it's very easy. As @santy001 has already said we've been filled in on this already, we've seen it and, you've already had SI tell you what It can't. To be absolutely blunt, it cannot do what it says. It has no bearing on decisions so it cannot force the player to even make the decision to try the through ball

Even if you don't want to listen to us, you've already had SI tell you what it affects and can't affect. It's already been proven by SI. Hence Neil taking the time to post and tell you. 

Maybe it's an example of the day and age, but it's a good example of how misinformation spreads when people passing on information from people who actually know how it works, are ignored in favour of hearsay and people telling them what they want to hear. 

Agree that "the patch" it's just editing a json file as I also wrote before, I opened it as well and read and figured out most of it. Anybody can play with the values there and I already expressed my doubts about a single man editing values randomly and testing a few games, could do better than the whole SI team with millions of simulations ran through the testing tools, where there is no placebo effect or humans seeing what they want.

Also agree that the original poster overhyped it, saying that he overwrote the engine to be as sim as FIFA (this part is specially funny...) when all that was done was to edit several physics related parameters, but on his defense I'd say that his English language is not the best (as probably happens with mine as well).

On what I strongly disagree with you, is in general saying that the json can't make the game "look" better (or worse) or that you know it can't generate more through balls or to affect the ME a lot. Why do you know it? I don't so I can't be as sure saying things nor can you.

Uncertain information can be spread out by a overhyped fan but also from an overprotective developer or company so instead of being over defensive, locking threads to avoid the talk about it with a mere phrase saying it doesn't work, we should at least try to get something positive from the "experiment" and explain properly to the users what can be done and why it's not a good idea.

See this video from a guy editing the json to extreme values, it's fun but also shows how important are the values in that file. You can't deny it after seeing this video that you can alter a lot of things just playing with the match physics. Probably with unexpected behavior and that is why I won't use that edited json after testing it as I'm afraid it could mess something long term, and that is why I corrected you about being impossible to generate more through balls or altering the ME. Why not after seeing all the weird things that happen in this video? Watch specially from minute 5:20 if you don't want to go through the whole video. The game ends like 11-5 with all kind of weird situations, goals, etc so the json potentially affects the ME a lot and not only the visual representation but also the internal calculations due to the changes in physics (that btw proves that the games are not pre-generated as some still claim).

I think that what this whole conversation around it should be used as information for SI, is that maybe what we users consider "realistic simulation" is not "realistic simulation" but "fun simulation" and they need to find a balance between the awesome stats engine they have and the visual representation we have about it, that for me is the main issue. When we see a winger shooting at the defender legs again and again, it probably represents the inability of that winger to pass that defender and pass properly but we have a single animation for it that looks totally irreal, same as missed 1on1, etc. What we lack is a better visual match representation and somewhat playing with players physics at least gives the impression of it being better to some people eyes.

 

Edited by Icy
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Icy, respectfully I've literally told you exactly how it works from an Si developer. The person involved is not developer. You've had detailed expert information passed you to repeated in this discussion , and Neil has posted again. There's no more to be said it really so I'll leave it there

I've said it already, but it's claiming 2+2=5, SI have checked and pointed out that 2+2=4 and then wanting a discussion on how 2+2 might equal 5. That's misinformation and really not something we're at all interested in. 

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Personally I think a lot of the issue with people feeling the need to use this ME hack stems from a lack of understanding in how tactical settings combine with each other and the players used, which is rooted in vague or even misleading tactical descriptions in game.

For example it's perfectly possible to play "attacking" football with any Mentality.  Likewise it's perfectly possible to play "defensive" football with any Mentality.  But the tactic creator leads us down certain paths, so we end up trying to use the Attacking Mentality to play attacking football or the Defensive Mentality to play defensively.  But further, because of issues with understanding and descriptions of how things combine, we then layer on additional aggressive (or passive) settings, roles and duties which leaves us wondering why we get FM'd, our strikers miss lots of 1v1s, how the opposition can play keep ball or why our team sitting back bleeds goals.

I see plenty of issues with the ME, but I don't see any of the issues (or others) I just mentioned in the previous sentence.  And that's primarily because I tend to ignore what the game is telling me and understand how things combine to produce the desired effect.  And there's a whole other forum here filled with people and guides willing to help others understand it too.

Dedicate some time and effort to that rather than hacking the ME to get what you want.  It really doesn't take much effort :thup:.

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So I'm a dev myself and took a look at the JSON file.

I think what people on both sides of the debate aren't understanding is:

(Theory)

The Match Engine is different from the Match Engine animations. The former calculates and creates outcomes. The animator then implements the outcomes on the screen. This patch changes the physics of the graphical display and doesn't change anything in the core calculator.

For example you can see how a lot of values have speed and delay in them. That's textbook animation stuff.

In a way, people assume that what they see on the screen is the Match Engine. They are partly right but the animations have always been a problem when you have a winger speed up and wait patiently like the most polite man in the world for the defender to catch up before he attempts a cross and is knocked off to corner.

What happened there is the core Match Engine determined the outcome but the animation engine had to compensate to MAKE it happen.

So my conclusion is: This perhaps fixes the animations on screen but has no access to the ACTUAL match engine.

You could call it the 3D patch

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10 minutes ago, saiyaman said:

when you have a winger speed up and wait patiently like the most polite man in the world for the defender to catch up before he attempts a cross and is knocked off to corner.

 

As an aside, I see a lot of this written on here and elsewhere. I can honestly say this has never happened in-game in any of my saves. I've had wingers keep dribbling when they should have maybe crossed it, allowing the defender to catch up and block (which also happens in real life more times than people realise), but I've never once saw a winger just stop running and wait for a defender to catch up and block it. The closest is when you've got the look for overlap instruction on, and the winger holds the ball up waiting for the full back to bomb past him, but that's about it. And even then, that's what you've instructed him to do. 

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2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

As an aside, I see a lot of this written on here and elsewhere. I can honestly say this has never happened in-game in any of my saves. 

I had it happen early doors, but it was because my only-right-footed left winger was trying to cut back onto his right foot in order to cross the ball. Once I changed the roles and system so that the overlapping (left footed) fullback did most of the crossing, I seldom saw the issue again. 

Edited by DementedHammer
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True but it's nowhere near as bad as FM19 was. Still far too much too often though.

I have some guys sign 4 or 5yr deals and before the 1st season is over he's wanting a new contract. Why? Because he's playing well and scoring/keeping clean sheets.
Well, that's what all your friggin bonuses were for, idiot!

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On 06/10/2020 at 18:57, themadsheep2001 said:

Let's not muddy the waters again. What Neil Brock has posted is exactly what it affects. This has come from the match engine team. People can do what they wish with their games, but really important the right information is out there.

  Fair enough

 

On 06/10/2020 at 18:53, Dagenham_Dave said:

As an aside, I see a lot of this written on here and elsewhere. I can honestly say this has never happened in-game in any of my saves. I've had wingers keep dribbling when they should have maybe crossed it, allowing the defender to catch up and block (which also happens in real life more times than people realise), but I've never once saw a winger just stop running and wait for a defender to catch up and block it. The closest is when you've got the look for overlap instruction on, and the winger holds the ball up waiting for the full back to bomb past him, but that's about it. And even then, that's what you've instructed him to do. 

Like I said, just a theory

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People tend to latch onto obvious "issues" to vent their frustration with the game, claiming they are broken or unrealistic. Missing 1o1's is of course upsetting so it's much more noticeable than the small but significant amount of weaknesses in regards to simulating football that the Match Engine still has, but which it is getting better at year after year imo.

I built up a Dortmund side that excelled particularly with it's dribbling and 1o1 finishing. Haaland netting in 60 goals in one season, being absolutely lethal and players like Chiesa or Vinicius Jr. ripping players apart on the wing. It wasn't also just due too overwhelming CA advantage. My rotational team still ripped appart opponents, and a player like Mohammed Daramy in his 2 year stint for me scored more goals than he played matches (50goals in 40 matches i believe), despite being far from World Class with his attributes.

People also tend to complain about being forced to play in a single way, but i'm not seeing it. With Inter i built up a team with pure destructive intent, trying to edge games italian style, 1:0 etc. I conceded 7 goals over the course of the whole season (in the league). In my current save i took over Bremen and am on course to the Euro league, playing a deep-press 4132 narrow, no gegenpressing, just a low block, physicality and counter attacks.

There are frustrating aspects, which for me is particularly absence of combination play in the opponents third, which does occur, but too little from what i've seen so far. And also the struggles of the match engine to produce authentic posession% numbers, struggling really to simulate build up game and ball retention which shows off differences quality much more heavily than is done now. When i pick a solid posession based tactic that also intends to score goals, i should be capable to enforce it regularly on weaker opponents. But i need to trick around with the tactical settings to create something that plays this way, although on paper it looks very different. These are some grander issues i still see in the engine.

To me 1o1's have been on point for years, with me having regularly strikers who converted them very well (I look at you, Lawrence Shankland) and i also create a variety of unique and entirely different tactics with ease, that favour different styles of play. So i'm always a bit frustrated at the majority latching onto issues which aren't really significant.

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On 11/10/2020 at 00:17, Earnie is God! said:

I have some guys sign 4 or 5yr deals and before the 1st season is over he's wanting a new contract. Why? Because he's playing well and scoring/keeping clean sheets.
Well, that's what all your friggin bonuses were for, idiot!

I had few of those and when you talk to them they will usually say that they are now much better players then when they signed the contract. So it happens mostly when you have youngsters developing well.

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On 12/10/2020 at 10:34, yolixeya said:

I had few of those and when you talk to them they will usually say that they are now much better players then when they signed the contract. So it happens mostly when you have youngsters developing well.

I do mainly go for the younger players but the annual pay rise bonus should take into account improvements.
Here's the latest player coming to me within a year of signing a long term deal, wanting a much better contract. He's only played 20 games for us in 12 months, he's improved slightly but nothing that significant but he wants me to make him our joint highest earner at the club? Go ahead and tell me this is true to real life. He's 24 and not even the best player in his position.
20201015001438_1.thumb.jpg.1e85990e62a5930d71b8b0273e575d0c.jpg  20201015001442_1.thumb.jpg.6b751f661fa3e6f683ef6a4ddfcb2112.jpg

20201015001500_1.thumb.jpg.dc9ce0fa90b859997e020c1111cc4921.jpg  20201015001618_1.thumb.jpg.6b733b4a3191d5d9899753624f049a81.jpg

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Here's his new contract. Give him a year and he'll want yet another new deal.
20201015013717_1.jpg.18838e868dca417a96073627c3b8f86b.jpg

Of course it's not the only annoying thing. Here's a replay of our opening goal in my most recent game when they were checking for offside... from a throw-in 🙄
Stupid FM!!
20201015012319_1.thumb.jpg.64f3b1ab6686bb1e28d25d47e3026323.jpg

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Or how about this one that I've just had...
20201015021909_1.jpg.142aa9a36b240160252d1f710ed07267.jpg

20201015021927_1.thumb.jpg.e816885de08830ba7eb25edb0ad8b616.jpg 20201015021940_1.thumb.jpg.85d132b160ad28e7177afc0f06a88ba9.jpg

He signed just 12 days ago, has played twice already, is our best GK at the club and is a 4* player within the squad yet he's somehow gone from an influential player down to just 'others' apparently due to a decline in ability when he's had no such thing.
These are the stupid little things, and there are hundreds of them, that infuriate people because they just don't get fixed.

Edited by Earnie is God!
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I could write a whole book with all these things. A player who is out on loan and who I've not spoken to in 6 months has just been injured for 4-6wks so I have a chat with him (I guess I call him up) and this is his response.
20201015033238_1.thumb.jpg.a8c4b1e90a73ed487321f8f5e58d3c7a.jpg

"I'm sure you'll want me for something else soon" is supposed to be a response for those players who you talk to too often, isn't it? Not for some guy I've only ever spoken to once before and that was half a year ago.

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7 hours ago, Earnie is God! said:

Or how about this one that I've just had...
20201015021909_1.jpg.142aa9a36b240160252d1f710ed07267.jpg

 

He signed just 12 days ago, has played twice already, is our best GK at the club and is a 4* player within the squad yet he's somehow gone from an influential player down to just 'others' apparently due to a decline in ability when he's had no such thing.
These are the stupid little things, and there are hundreds of them, that infuriate people because they just don't get fixed.

It's not a decline in his ability, it's a decline compared to others in the squad. It literally says this. Have you signed other players, or have other players improved a level since the signing? Squad dynamics change all the time, it's why it's called 'dynamics'. Maybe he's not quite as influential as a couple of other players within that timeframe.  Chances are, the longer he stays at the club, the more likely he'll be back as an influential player again. 

Or it could just be bugged. Who knows?

It's a far more enjoyable experience to build these little things into the narrative of your save rather than get overly annoyed with them, particularly as nothing is going to change on this version of the game now. For example, that lifelong issue of players rejecting your contract offer and signing for someone else at a fraction of the wage you were offering? That's been in the game forever. It's likely it'll never change. What I do is make up some narrative about the player choosing the other team instead, then trying to create a rivalry by bad mouthing them in the press whenever an opportunity arises. 

 

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9 hours ago, Earnie is God! said:

I do mainly go for the younger players but the annual pay rise bonus should take into account improvements.
Here's the latest player coming to me within a year of signing a long term deal, wanting a much better contract. He's only played 20 games for us in 12 months, he's improved slightly but nothing that significant but he wants me to make him our joint highest earner at the club? Go ahead and tell me this is true to real life. He's 24 and not even the best player in his position.

I do agree that annual pay rise and even increase in wage after certain amount of matches should satisfy the player. But also,  you don't have to grant him a new contract. Early in the save,I always walked away when their manager want to negotiate new contract. There is not much risk when he isn't influental in the squad and on a 4 year contract. If he comes to you, I tell him that he has plenty of time on his current contract or to drop this and concentrate on football. Sometimes he accepts it, and sometimes he gets mad but it's not a big deal because he is on a long contract and it's not influental. He gets over it usually.

I do understand that it can be frustrating when they all want bigger contract, sometimes it annoyes me too, because now I have the money and I have the biggest ora a second best payroll in the Premier League. I try to build a team of stars, so that my 2nd team is also very good and naturally you have to pay them. It works great, I am on a 75-ish games unbeaten run that started before last season, I have a invincible team that went  27W, 11D last season, and also won a FA cup, and CL and a continued in the same fashion in this season. But I'm starting to think it's not sustainable to pay all those players and I'm already thinking selling some of them when I get good offer and bringing someone who will agree to be on a lower wages. That is the part I like. Their demands maybe aren't realistic but it makes squad managment much more intresting.

7 hours ago, Earnie is God! said:

And another thing that keeps pissing me off; no option to change how regularly you receive training updates, just on or off.
So every week I get the same thing...

Why don't you just take him off the individual training for strength. It clearly says it's not going to produce any more results. I think some players have a cap on certain attributes and you can't force it. Or you could have him train something else for a while and then go back to strength training and see how it goes.

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frankly the ME needs serious serious work  by SI. what's currently available resembles nothing like a football match. maybe 20-30% of it resembles real life football. the rest of it is god knows what. all play just shuttles to the flanks and wingers crossing against the defender for corner kick or throw in over and over.

i've tried the so called ME patch and agree it's likely just placebo effect. fixes a couple of animations but that's about it. as most mention it does not change the ME at all.

in short, SI really need to put in massive work into this ME and hopefully it's ready for FM21. looking forward to the demo.

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8 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

It's not a decline in his ability, it's a decline compared to others in the squad. It literally says this. Have you signed other players, or have other players improved a level since the signing? Squad dynamics change all the time, it's why it's called 'dynamics'.

I have signed nobody else in this January transfer window. I have actually sold a GK, who was marginally better than him, because he was crying about not getting a new contract. If anything, his comparable ability should now be higher than before and besides, it's just been 12 days since he signed.

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Looking forward to this playing out to be the cherry on top of the 'questionable' sandwich that has been FM20.

113744048_FMtakeover.png.a7705c6b11857c7833e7f316ff12a7d9.png

I'm an icon at Norwich City. I've taken them from a relegation battler in year one to a Champions League regular, with the clubs first two Premier League trohpies, first two FA Cups and a Champions League final along the way.

However, apparently saying they'll sack me if they buy the club (currently sitting top of the League right now) is a move to get the supporters on their side.

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4 hours ago, KingCanary said:

Looking forward to this playing out to be the cherry on top of the 'questionable' sandwich that has been FM20.

113744048_FMtakeover.png.a7705c6b11857c7833e7f316ff12a7d9.png

I'm an icon at Norwich City. I've taken them from a relegation battler in year one to a Champions League regular, with the clubs first two Premier League trohpies, first two FA Cups and a Champions League final along the way.

However, apparently saying they'll sack me if they buy the club (currently sitting top of the League right now) is a move to get the supporters on their side.

You are spending far too much money! Take care of your finances!

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Another thing you can't switch off: Team selection advice. Every game, my AssMan is telling me who he thinks I should pick for the next match when I don't want anyone to. I could see the merit if the advice made sense but too often the reasons he gives as to why he thinks a certain player should play in a particular position is flawed. For example:

20201022213422_1.jpg.0784dc434976c40eb199a705620ad6af.jpg  20201022213406_1.thumb.jpg.e0e1877dded4805a0785d407d5706d00.jpg

Apart from one excellent game, he hasn't played well at all and not managed a single goal, assist or rating above 7 so my AssMan is talking nonsense.
Besides, if I want his advice, I'll just click on 'Quick Pick' on the tactics screen.

Yet more crap we have no choice but to put up with because we HAVE to delegate it to a staff member. Why can't we switch this team selection advice off???

20201022212720_1.thumb.jpg.44cf7bdd466111d8c373450a4186bcfd.jpg

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