How good are we expecting the FM 2025 match engine to look?

[clemo]

We know SI have signalled there will be a significant improvment, I would settle for something along the lines of late ps2 PES graphics. The main thing for me is having the feel of the atmosphere be more realistic, i.e at the moment I'm playing as cardiff and if when I zoom out it is a complete 3 tier bowl, like a big blue bernabeu.

 

Thoughts?

[-Jef-]

I honestly couldn't care less about graphics. I just want improved ME. I've said it for years now. Give me FIFA 08 graphics and we're fine until 2050. Just fix all the issues in match engine.

[fc.cadoni]

It is too soon for that information from developer; don't expect to find answers soon, because FM24 is on the horizon and we approach for more news to unveil.

[rinso]

why would we speculate about somethin thats 2 years away?? we don't even know what is happening with fm24 yet.... 

[clemo]

OK, just wanted to see what level of graphics we will have when we make the jump, apologies i've upset some of you haha

[alian62]

5 hours ago, rinso said:

why would we speculate about somethin thats 2 years away?? we don't even know what is happening with fm24 yet.... 

Its not 2 years away its 15 months

[alian62]

I expect the graphics to be on par with todays technology . And why would one expect that as it will be November 2024 when it is released . Not sure if my sights are set to high , as they generally are , but i would expect at least 100% better stadiums and turf along with players . I know its a big step but they have been working on it for a while so i would be disappointed if it wasnt up to todays technology 

 

[Gum]

Very best case scenario it would look like an early 2010's PES/FIFA game.

However, if you told me FM25 would just look almost identical to how it is now on the field with massive stadium & animation improvements along with a better match engine overall, I would absolutely take it. I'd rather have that than have it look like FIFA 12 with no match engine improvements at all.

[Tony Wright 747]

I hope it doesn't look like any FIFA or PES, more like Tiger Woods golf but is unique to FM with major improvements to the stadiums, lighting and weather

[JordanMilly]

21 hours ago, alian62 said:

I expect the graphics to be on par with todays technology . And why would one expect that as it will be November 2024 when it is released . Not sure if my sights are set to high , as they generally are , but i would expect at least 100% better stadiums and turf along with players . I know its a big step but they have been working on it for a while so i would be disappointed if it wasnt up to todays technology 

 

 

Given it's using Unity, which can allow for a pretty decent spread of hardware requirements and still run it well, and seeing some of the Unity games out now, I'm hoping for something, graphically, that looks like a tuned-down FIFA, but actually looks like football.

[talhak]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I hope it doesn't look like any FIFA or PES, more like Tiger Woods golf but is unique to FM with major improvements to the stadiums, lighting and weather

Exactly! EA Sports FC/PES is much different game from FM. FM should have a unique 3D match view as it does currently have. I don't think the zoom level needs much changes but the detail level of 3D does obviously need. The player animations including out of action (e.g., when player misses a big chance, player appeals against a decision, etc.), much more detailed stadium and pitch, and much more diversity for lighting and weather.

[janrzm]

I think a lot of people want improved graphics, certainly if you are wanting to encourage more users under a certain age. Even though I personally would happily play 2D I'm not going to say I don't care about the graphics because I care about the long term future of the game. There's a bigger picture......

Where I'm really hoping they can take the game to the next level is on the AI front. There are just too many holes in the game at the moment around AI Squad Building, Tactics, The way club boards think (or don't think) and so many other elements that need polishing. Another key aspect is the match engine and tactical options available to us, it's not unreasonable to say as we currently stand it's not that aligned with what we see teams and managers do on a weekend. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by janrzm

[clemo]

At the end of the day if i'm managing Boca, I want to feel like i'm managing at La Bombonera with the ultras screaming down and the banners flying, not a generic 3 tier blue bowl.

[TopToffee]

On 25/08/2023 at 03:39, clemo said:

At the end of the day if i'm managing Boca, I want to feel like i'm managing at La Bombonera with the ultras screaming down and the banners flying, not a generic 3 tier blue bowl.

Think we'd all like that. The difficulty is that there's 10's of thousands of clubs.

[KillYourIdols]

A man can dream

[SPE3D]

The game is being released in 2024. If it releases a game with graphics akin to a 2015 release it will be laughed out of town. 

[TokyoWanderer]

hace 2 horas, SPE3D dijo:

The game is being released in 2024. If it releases a game with graphics akin to a 2015 release it will be laughed out of town. 

The 2022 game released with 2005-level graphics. Was it laughed out of town or was it a record release?

Honestly, if FM 25 has graphics from 2015 AAA games, it would be amazing.

Edited August 29, 2023 by TokyoWanderer

[Dagenham_Dave]

8 hours ago, KillYourIdols said:

A man can dream

The irony is there's possibly more chance of FM looking like that one day than FIFA/Pro Evo or whatever they are called these days - FM doesn't have the requirement for the human player to control the players which is what holds these games back - On the flip side, FM has millions more calculations, so perhaps it would be more difficult. Would be nice! Just without Martin Tyler though...

[Erimus1876]

Its not just the match graphics that need a significant improvement, but the whole 3d match day experience does.  There was a time in FM, prior to FM18, where managing in different countries or continents actually meant something as the large variety of stadiums and backdrops the game back then provided gave us a distinct cultural flavour to the clubs we managed.  From FM18 onward stadiums all became generic clones that looked like someone knocked up in their lunch hour using MS Paint.  It didn't matter if you managed in the Thai 3rd division or the Finish 1st, the cultural difference was non-existent, and the 'vibe' of managing in different places was lost.

I don't think we need FIFA graphics tbh, if you do a search on google for unity-based football games, you can see some that look very FM-ish but with far better aesthetics and lighting.  I don't think SI will do anything radically different to those tbh, but I'd be happy with a return to the stadium variety we had pre FM18, with the beautiful lighting and pitch variety FM17 gave us, and a stadium editor so we the players can finally bring the stadiums of the world to FM ourselves and give us the endless variety the game deserves (I'd even pay extra for a stadium editor!)

Edited August 29, 2023 by Erimus1876

[jmb1403]

I am slightly worried as I did just buy a new laptop with RTX 3050 but I assume if that can handle Hogwarts Legacy I doubt FM will have graphics any better than that

[zakbrown96]

2 hours ago, jmb1403 said:

I am slightly worried as I did just buy a new laptop with RTX 3050 but I assume if that can handle Hogwarts Legacy I doubt FM will have graphics any better than that

You should be ok, I think the graphics will undoubtedly improve significantly but it won’t be to say FIFA  levels and rightly so. I’d imagine your graphic card will be more than fine as FM caters for older devices anyways 

[Dundalis]

On 30/08/2023 at 03:17, TokyoWanderer said:

The 2022 game released with 2005-level graphics. Was it laughed out of town or was it a record release?

Honestly, if FM 25 has graphics from 2015 AAA games, it would be amazing.

Not to be pedantic, but if you actually look at PES 5 released in 2005, even that looks better than todays FM particularly animation wise. FM graphics are more like late 90s games like Fifa 99 or something but better upscaling and AA.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Dundalis

[Marko1989]

Even though I care about graphics, I don't need them to be anything special. ( of course, it needs to look much better than it is now, but that is not hard since the game is ugly )

I think the most important thing that needs to be spot on is lighting. When they ruined lighting in 2018, the game looks started going backward.

The atmosphere is important for me because I want to see the difference when I play in Serie B and in the Champions League for example. Also game skin has to contain club colors all over it, primary and secondary, I want to have a feeling like I am managing a certain club. How it is now, where everything is purple, every club feels the same.

Also, of course, the 2D match engine should get an upgrade, currently it is stuck in the early 90s.

All in all, game graphics and aesthetics do not have to be anything revolutionary, the atmosphere has to be spot on, so you can see the difference between leagues and clubs, as it is now, it just looks like some soulless program.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Marko1989

[talhak]

4 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

The atmosphere is important for me because I want to see the difference when I play in Serie B and in the Champions League for example. Also game skin has to contain club colors all over it, primary and secondary, I want to have a feeling like I am managing a certain club. How it is now, where everything is purple, every club feels the same.

I second this. Older versions of FM come with this feature as the whole UI was repainted through the colors of the managed club. In the last versions, unfortunately, this was streamlined.

[PAFC_Dugout]

I just hope there’s still 2D 🤞 

[SimonHoddle]

I love the way everyone references the brilliant lighting and diversity of graphics before 18. I still want to know what and why SI did after that! I don’t know a single other developer which has taken a sledgehammer to graphic quality and pushed a game BACKWARDS by 10 years. 
 

I agree with what everyone is saying above that the ME is essential and that needs a lot of work. Graphics are intertwined with that though so we don’t need FIFA but we do need to believe we are watching something real. FM17 was impossible to put down for me because I believed it to be football. I don’t know what they did but the last few years have been anything but immersive and realistic. 
 

its good to hear changes are imminent (starting this year apparently). About time SI.

[Zachary Whyte]

12 hours ago, PAFC_Dugout said:

I just hope there’s still 2D 🤞 

Yes, FM25 will have a 2D Option.

[PAFC_Dugout]

6 hours ago, Zachary Whyte said:

Yes, FM25 will have a 2D Option.

Thankyou 🙌

[SilvC2001]

On 30/08/2023 at 10:22, jmb1403 said:

I am slightly worried as I did just buy a new laptop with RTX 3050 but I assume if that can handle Hogwarts Legacy I doubt FM will have graphics any better than that

What laptop did you get mate? I think you’ll be fine I imagine at best we’ll get fifa 14 level of graphics 

[Marko1989]

21 hours ago, talhak said:

I second this. Older versions of FM come with this feature as the whole UI was repainted through the colors of the managed club. In the last versions, unfortunately, this was streamlined.

Exactly, just by looking at the colors, you get a certain feeling that you are managing Tottenham for example

[Jops14]

Yeah removing that has taken a lot of personality out of the game, such an odd choice

[jmb1403]

3 hours ago, SilvC2001 said:

What laptop did you get mate? I think you’ll be fine I imagine at best we’ll get fifa 14 level of graphics 

This one

ASUS TUF F17 FX707ZV 17.3 144Hz... https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BN1PNFYX?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

[andu1]

Yeah... the FM 23 skin was definetly sub par.

[Cobblers]

Sorry to be the doubting Thomas here, but reading the comments above makes me believe there will be some very disappointed players come FM25.

[janrzm]

On 25/08/2023 at 14:39, clemo said:

At the end of the day if i'm managing Boca, I want to feel like i'm managing at La Bombonera with the ultras screaming down and the banners flying, not a generic 3 tier blue bowl.

This kind of thing is where they can really make a difference IMO. There aren't that many opportunities within the game to make clubs feel individual and less generic. It's a weakness in the game currently that saves can feel very similar regardless of club size, league or country. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by janrzm

[dieguitoch]

I see 2 reasons why FM will never look like Fifa/PES. One is that that FM hasn't the possibility to zoom closely due to right issues and, second, because FIFA and PES are not on scale (players vs pitch)... to make the game look better they display the players way too big in proportion with the pitch so, in FM, everything seems smaller !

[Nonlondoner]

I'd trade an upgrade on the players for more believable atmosphere, stadiums, weather, crowd animations and environs around the ground. 

As said by the OP, it's not the action on the pitch that shatters the immersion for me, it's everything else in the ME. 

 

[alian62]

8 hours ago, Nonlondoner said:

I'd trade an upgrade on the players for more believable atmosphere, stadiums, weather, crowd animations and environs around the ground. 

As said by the OP, it's not the action on the pitch that shatters the immersion for me, it's everything else in the ME. 

 

Totally agree and thats the issue i will have with FM24 because if its the same stadiums and hot dog stands etc  i wont be making a purchase . 

[SimonHoddle]

On 03/09/2023 at 11:48, dieguitoch said:

I see 2 reasons why FM will never look like Fifa/PES. One is that that FM hasn't the possibility to zoom closely due to right issues and, second, because FIFA and PES are not on scale (players vs pitch)... to make the game look better they display the players way too big in proportion with the pitch so, in FM, everything seems smaller !

Including the bloody ball which is sometimes invisible (certainly on my Xbox X, not exactly a graphical wasteland ). Not seeing the ball is farcical for obvious reasons. This insistence to ‘make everything to scale’ which means that you can’t actually see the match action is taking realism beyond reason. 

[SimonHoddle]

On 03/09/2023 at 06:13, Cobblers said:

Sorry to be the doubting Thomas here, but reading the comments above makes me believe there will be some very disappointed players come FM25.

Ha. I mean that’s a completely speculative comment tbh. I guess they all are here but give the developers a chance and let’s be optimistic!

[grade]

As long the movement of players are more natural, less robotic, i'm okay with anything.

As it currently is in FM, I prefer the unrealistic movement of Sensible World of Soccer 97-98, that was 2D. 

[busngabb]

As good as they can possibly be. The game needs immersion and has long needed a UI overhaul. I'm as excited for that as I am for the in game graphics themselves. I want a snappy, instant UI that is satisfying to navigate and full of tools like click and drag to change multiple things at once, export functionality everywhere and far easier adjustment of screens with data on. I often want to create filters and views, but it's just so awfully unwieldy that I give up. It needs to be far easier and auto-adjusting column widths and the like to display what you want. I want time progressions to be as satisfying as it is on console, or better too. Someone raised the suggestion that you have Sky Sports News type tracker replacing the time progression screens and also have it as a screensaver when you sit idle whilst playing the game. So much they can do with a better UI and a nudge up in spec.

As for the in game graphics, we've got to remember that we're not interacting with it in real time. It's effectively an animation of something it's pre-determined is going to happen. So for me there is no excuse for it looking anything less than pretty good. It's effectively just a video. I want stadiums to be accurate too, they can put a community stadium designer out if they can't be bothered doing it themselves, let the community do the work and don't go anywhere near licensing. Nothing grinds on me more when playing Football Manager than seeing the bin next to the completely empty burger van at a Premier League ground, or seeing daft open corners in some of the most famous grounds in the country, or the perfectly straight and empty Victorian era terraced housing that supposedly most Premier League grounds back onto.

I'm aware I'm possibly going to be severely disappointed when it comes out as my aspirations are perhaps a little (or a lot) too optimistic. Which makes this thread quite interesting to me. It seems that the scope of the changes are the big question, as they then spawn far greater and more difficult problems. For example,  if they drastically improved the graphics and animations it would then look even more jarring that the stadiums weren't accurate and the player animations weren't bespoke to the players themselves. Seeing a crisp, high-res, highly detailed, beautifully animated random dude running down the wing as Raheem Sterling without his trademark running style would perhaps be even more unsettling for immersion than the graphics the game has now. Same with the stadiums, better graphics and animations, but Villa Park still has open corners and random wheely bins everywhere, it'll feel very off.

What I think SI needs to do eventually is put out some early sample screenshots of what they are planning to do, give the fanbase an idea. It'lll set expectations a little as there is the risk it'll annoy almost everyone as we'll all have vastly different visions in our heads. The rich with their fancy 4090s will say it's not shiny enough, those with 27 year old computers will say it's heresy and we don't need to make their integrated graphics chip bleed. The FIFA career mode players will moan the animations and player faces aren't accurate and the stadiums are bad and it's not as good as FIFA 12. We'll get the same MEMEs they do whenever Pro Evo bring out another graphically disfigured update.

I also want to reiterate the point that I love that SI are taking this risk with the game. It would have been so easy to keep milking the cash cow in this period where there is absolutely no direct competition in the market. Such a big overhaul of the game is a fantastic step and needs to be lauded.

 

[FourFiveOne]

Like someone mentioned earlier, i hope to see players acting more natural, less robotic and no more ping-pong passing with the point/tip of their boots, which is basically as good as how every pass looks like currently in FM. In real life players almost never pass with the point/tip of their boot! So i want to see proper passing like humans do; inside boot most of the time, aswell as outside boot for skilled players (for example those who have 15 or higher in technique). Pointer passes should basically be banned as its very uncommon in real life football! Players should also be able to control the ball and give it touches while looking around for a teammate instead of inmediately passing it away like headless chickens like they currently do. We dont need face scans like FIFA & eFootball, we just desire NATURAL movement and actions, aswell as DRIBBLING! Fgs.. we dont even have dribbing yet in FM! Im not talking tricks and freestyle, just the most common dribbles like running at the defender and running (past him) dragging the ball towards the inside or outside of him to shoot on goal or pass to a teammate (now players just make 360 degree turns instead of going 1 vs 1 with a defender, and the defender just standing still..). Also make much more different stadium models (and capacities) for diversity and different pitch models/grass cuts and goal nets aswell as lighting and weather backgrounds. I agree the UI also needs to be better, and bring back the color changes we used to have that painted the UI in the colours of the club we were managing, that was a very nice detail. Im definetly forgetting things but all these changes need to be in, its necessary!

[Tony Wright 747]

I agree completely with the last two posts, and one thing i would like to add is a more realistic amount of replica shirts in the crowd, and perhaps different attire for different weather conditions.and temperatures.

[Passion Fruit]

On 29/08/2023 at 19:20, Dagenham_Dave said:

The irony is there's possibly more chance of FM looking like that one day than FIFA/Pro Evo or whatever they are called these days - FM doesn't have the requirement for the human player to control the players which is what holds these games back - On the flip side, FM has millions more calculations, so perhaps it would be more difficult. Would be nice! Just without Martin Tyler though...

Not sure how something like this would work.

I'm only using an educated guess, but i'm assuming these virtual matches are pre-rendered, where as FM would require a more "on the fly" solution since the user needs to be able to alter the flow of the game either via shouts or substitutions and formation changes etc. And then theres the calculations as you already suggested.

If the game calculated the match before hand then yeah, i think something like that would be possible, but you can't pre-render a match before it's taken place because you wouldn't be able to effect the result and the processing times would probably be major.

Something along the lines of an older PES or FIFA game is probably more likely, with better animations, stadiums, visuals etc, just without player faces and fingers crossed, a great match engine.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Passion Fruit

[DominicForza]

As a general rule I expect substantial changes to initially be a step back, sidestep at best.  Followed by incremental improvement over time.  

[angelo994]

10 hours ago, Passion Fruit said:

Not sure how something like this would work.

I'm only using an educated guess, but i'm assuming these virtual matches are pre-rendered, where as FM would require a more "on the fly" solution since the user needs to be able to alter the flow of the game either via shouts or substitutions and formation changes etc. And then theres the calculations as you already suggested.

If the game calculated the match before hand then yeah, i think something like that would be possible, but you can't pre-render a match before it's taken place because you wouldn't be able to effect the result and the processing times would probably be major.

Something along the lines of an older PES or FIFA game is probably more likely, with better animations, stadiums, visuals etc, just without player faces and fingers crossed, a great match engine.

The FM match engine is already pre-rendered. Every time you make a change it re-renders the match engine etc. So I don’t really buy this an excuse. 

[forameuss]

2 hours ago, angelo994 said:

The FM match engine is already pre-rendered. Every time you make a change it re-renders the match engine etc. So I don’t really buy this an excuse. 

It is nowhere near as "pre-rendered" as the likes of FIFA/PES.  With the latter, games are just poorly strung together sequences of animations triggered by button presses.  Completely incomparable to the FM visual engine, even in its current state.

[Harrymcintyre]

I’ve a feeling better graphics comes at a cost of adecent match engine. The game will just end up being a stadium building simulation, that’s all people will use it for. 

[russell9]

The match engine has two major part, the first one calculate all the decisions and actions taken by all the players and also the ball physics, locations and etc from start to finish. This is the most complex part in the entire FM, any tiny changes in this part will have a chain effects in everything from number of goals down to number of individual dribbles. This is where even a simple change of inside forward cutting inside more with the ball may cause unrealistic statistics across the board. Let's just call this the match result engine.

The second part is the visual rendering of everything on the pitch, the players, the ball, referee, crowd, stadium and etc based on the results generated from the first part from start to finish. Let's call this the match animation engine.

When you play a match in FM, the full final result is already calculated by the match result engine and then all the actions and outcomes are replay by the match animation engine. If you change something during the match the full result will be calculated again started from the minutes you made changes.

In FM2025 I would expect the match animation engine to improved significantly.
I am not sure about the match result engine though, i doubt SI will completely rewrite this module in Unity3D C#.
Most likely just having Unity3D to call their existing C++ match result engine DLL.