Football Manager 2019 Official Feedback Thread

[bar333]

Let's have a chat about players' reasoning for wanting to leave - they're all understandable with one exception. Can anyone logically explain players deciding they want to leave for the simple reason of "they want me"? 

"Wants to leave as X have made him top target". Sure, they might a bit crap, a smaller club, whatever - but hey, they want him guys! They even sent some scouts and everything!

Talk to the player to convince him to stay - "It will give me a chance to be the main man". Said the Key Player status, highest paid, Team Leader striker with the highest reputation in the team. Hello?

Player interactions and lack of context, name me a better duo. The game needs a lot of improvement in many areas when it comes to it's ability to contextualize information. Too many things just seem to happen in a vacuum without the game considering other factors, it's a real lack of attention to detail that this franchise used to pride itself on.

Also no idea if this is intended or a bug but a lot of player chats seem to end very abruptly and again in a way that makes no sense. After the player said that to me I told him I can't lose his influence in the dressing room (this is typically pretty effective with influential players), his response? "I'm not prepared to go over this again, bye.", chat finished. I've seen this multiple times in instances where we never had that chat before, including this.

And another thing on player chats - why is the appearance of certain responses seemingly random? There's one response that convinces the player and is actually the only one that makes sense in this particular situation and it's telling them that they're too important and influential to let go, but upon multiple reloads I've noticed that it only appears sometimes. If there is a way to placate the player and it's not an unavoidable unhappiness situation clearly, then why is it basically a dice roll as to whether it's provided to me or not?

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by bar333

[LukasZ_VCF]

Is there a way to check my loaned players stats how many games they played, ratings etc like in scout report but whenever I need it ? I saw only last game in first squad-->loaned players and I had to check 1 by 1...

 

Also is there a way to see results while I am on holidays simulating the game ?

[bartrix]

The player release clause max. value for a new contract is much lower in comparison to real life.  Any particular reason why?

Players in the database have the correct ultra high release clauses set. Prime example is Real Madrid's contract policy since the 'Neymar to PSG transfer' - even the latest signing youngster Brahim Diaz has (according to AS) a minimum fee release clause of 750 mln euros (in Spain a min. fee release clause in a player contract is mandatory).

Meanwhile in FM both the human and AI managers are limited to lower values of that clause for new contracts/signings.

[Piperita]

I am a hyper defensive trainer for most of my teams and as such only have a few - but then really clear - chances per match. According to the Analyses screen roughly 1.5 to 2 per game.

Now I finally dared to start a midseason-career and am a bit flabberghasted just how many more chances AI teams usually have on average. Discounting friendlies, the numbers are:

• 442: 1057 minutes used, 58 to 63
• 4141: 137 minutes used, 10 to 7
• 5212: 75 minutes used: 5 to 2
• 424: 139 minutes used, 6 to 6

The question is: Am I really even more of an anomaly than I thought, is the team in question just weird, or might that be a bug? 

[Shakes]

The tab Training -> Calendar really should be Training -> Schedule and the current schedule tab renamed. The fixture list is not called calendar, it's called schedule. The training news item refers to the training schedule being changed. So why does the game then call it calendar in the tab name? Gets me every time, I always click on the wrong thing.

The whole ergonomics of setting up training is very bad as it stands. Doing it week by week doesn't really work because games do not always fall on week boundaries, and what you want early in the week depends on when your game was the previous week. So if you choose to take control of training you not only have to manually go through and assign about 46 weeks a season, you then have to manually fix them up (and keep on doing so as the fixture changes). Instead of assigning in weekly blocks, training needs to be assigned in a more contextual manner. You should be able to set up plans for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 days between fixtures as well as weeks off and have those automatically apply (of course still allowing for manual edits later). If training hasn't been edited the appropriate new fixture gap plan should automatically apply when the fixture list changes.

[Haiku]

A suggestion for trainings. Because it's very time consuming for me dealing with scheduling the trainings I would still like my ass man to help with the schedule, but I will choose the training sessions. I mean if there are 3 sessions a day, that makes 21 sessions. I want to be able to chose those 21 sessions and let the ass man spread them over the weak, so that when there is a match and travel, the sessions will be arranged by their priority starting from 1,2,3...etc. and those further down the list will be missed because the match and travel. As it is currently, assigning sessions day by day, we frequently miss important sessions and need to change every week accordingly. That's too much for me. 

[ltdamn]

Has some stuff been removed in the latest update? Vanishing foam, dynamic TV deals and the ability to use the 'I expect to see you lot in training tomorrow after that performance' have all been variously mentioned as not showing up anymore on the forums so far.

Might just be a coincidence.

[bigmattb28]

20 hours ago, bartrix said:

The player release clause max. value for a new contract is much lower in comparison to real life.  Any particular reason why?

Players in the database have the correct ultra high release clauses set. Prime example is Real Madrid's contract policy since the 'Neymar to PSG transfer' - even the latest signing youngster Brahim Diaz has (according to AS) a minimum fee release clause of 750 mln euros (in Spain a min. fee release clause in a player contract is mandatory).

Meanwhile in FM both the human and AI managers are limited to lower values of that clause for new contracts/signings.

As far as I remember, every Spanish club contract in real life has to have a minimum fee release included dude.

[Vladimir]

What is the update I got from Steam today?

[bartrix]

5 hours ago, bigmattb28 said:

As far as I remember, every Spanish club contract in real life has to have a minimum fee release included dude.

Yes, I know - nothing I wrote in my post states otherwise.

In the game you (and the AI managers) can't offer contracts with minimum fee release clauses higher than 557 mln euros. At the same time these exist both in real life and in the FM database.

[Haiku]

4 hours ago, bartrix said:

Yes, I know - nothing I wrote in my post states otherwise.

In the game you (and the AI managers) can't offer contracts with minimum fee release clauses higher than 557 mln euros. At the same time these exist both in real life and in the FM database.

Mate, AI's never gonna bid on 557 mil euro in FM, so it's not a big deal, but it's worth as suggestion to fix in further releases.

[Burnley92]

I'm playing as Burnley and just lost 3-0 to Man Utd. I checked my fans confidence feedback after the match and one of the negatives is "Frustrated at failing to beat a team that suffered an early red card". United were already 3-0 up when Herrera was sent off in the 85th minute 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Burnley92

[CFuller]

In terms of player promises, how does FM define "challenging for the title"?

I'm managing Fiorentina in the 2021/2022 season. I promised Federico Chiesa when I gave him his current contract that we'd challenge for the Serie A title by the end of this campaign. I also made the same promise to Almamy Touré when I signed him three summers ago.

With two games to go, we were four points adrift of leaders Napoli. We could still win the title, but only if Napoli didn't defeat Atalanta in their penultimate match of the season (we played Chievo a day later).

Napoli did indeed beat Atalanta to wrap up the title. Even so, I thought we'd at least fulfilled Chiesa's and Touré's promises of "challenging for the title"... until I got these messages in my inbox.

Because our dressing room atmosphere was reasonably high, I managed to get both players back on side by using the "There's a good atmosphere here; why would you want to leave that?" option (or something along those lines). I'm just wondering, though: how close do you need to come to winning the title to fulfil the promise?

This might be something for the bugs forum (I've kept a save file from before the Napoli-Atalanta game just in case), but I want to know if there's anything obvious I'm missing before I head over there.

[silverboot81]

Smells like a bug for me. As far as I understand your team was challenging for the title.

[JulesD]

I'd like to know when you're going to be patching some of the more frequently mentioned issues, particularly those related to the ME.

 

Some feedback:

 

- Players are mentioned as a former player of mine when they've been a trialist at most. Considering I bring in quite a few trialists to see if there's a cheeky free agent in there I end up having former players all over the league.

- Determination drops happen a bit too often. I have a 13 determination team leader, and all my 14-16 determination players are getting it dropped to the same level. Now I have an 18 and a 16 determination team leader alongside of them, and thanks to their social units some players have good determination again. It makes me happy, but makes it incredibly gamey. I'd rather leave my 34 year old back up players with great determination as captain&team leader, instead of my 13 determination world beater who makes the difference every game. Just seems unrealistic - I'd like more emphasis on mentoring opposed to this sort of gambling.

 

Match engine:

- Strikers failing to score one on one's seems to be overrepresented in this ME. I know it happens quite a bit in real life, but whenever I see a one on one I just assume they miss it now.

- Striker movement is really static and doesn't differ irregardless of PI & TI. Only exception is when I make them man mark a player or put them as a pressing forward on defense.

- Majority of my goals seem to come from set pieces: headers, long shots, throw in routines that go in (pass it to a player on the edge of the box, long shot).

- Corners seem to be hit over the box and resulting in a goal kick or throw in a bit too frequently.

- Quick counters seem to go in far quicker than other types of goals, and this seems to be happening quite often. Sudden 1-touch football from mediocre players.

- Full backs end up hitting crosses into the first opponent too often. Full backs shouldn't just try to cross all the time, I want to be able to tell them to pass it to strikers and midfielders who come short. It's impossible to do this in the current ME.

- I have a lot of players with great attributes and PPM's to make killer balls. I play with three strikers yet they rarely receive one of these, more often than not it's my wingbacks who are on the receiving end.

- AI teams seem incredibly defensive in their set-up. I've won the league twice after four seasons, with a mediocre squad, and almost every squad I play is incredibly defensive.

 

I've posted a number of PKM's in other threads in the bugs forum, but I'd simply like to know where you are in your process. I feel that posting "we've logged it" and such acknowledges that you're working on it, but it's not very transparent communication. As a customer that year in year out buys your product I'd like some more involvement from SI's side when it comes to acknowledging these things. Communicate with us when developers are going to test it, and how long it takes to tackle these issues. Now it feels like I'm delivering my comments and it ends up in a big black box where I have to just sit and wait and hope you do something with it.

 

 

 

edit:

 

 

Three strikers bunched up together with the instruction to keep it wide. Also have the instruction 'hit early crosses' on, but you can guess what my full back did. Exactly, he ran into the opposition.

 

Also, the score is because of four long shots. Two of them from my midfielder with 9 long shots. Think he's scored quite a few goals now, opposed to my strikers. Clearly, that's not how the ME should work.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by JulesD

[RobertPage]

7 hours ago, JulesD said:

I'd like to know when you're going to be patching some of the more frequently mentioned issues, particularly those related to the ME.

The next and final major patch will be the start of march 

[JulesD]

11 minutes ago, RobertPage said:

The next and final major patch will be the start of march 

Really? So we're stuck with the current flaws until march because that will be the final patch?

[RobertPage]

3 minutes ago, JulesD said:

Really? So we're stuck with the current flaws until march because that will be the final patch?

Without this being 100% fact, it follows the pattern of previous years

These have been the release dates for the last few previous games

16.2.0 December 16th, 16.3.0 March 4th,

17.2.0 December 15th, 17.3.0 March 1st,

18.2.0 December 14th, 18.3.0 March 1st, 

19.2.0 December 11th.

[dannyfc]

1 hour ago, RobertPage said:

Without this being 100% fact, it follows the pattern of previous years

These have been the release dates for the last few previous games

16.2.0 December 16th, 16.3.0 March 4th,

17.2.0 December 15th, 17.3.0 March 1st,

18.2.0 December 14th, 18.3.0 March 1st, 

19.2.0 December 11th.

Next official release will definitely be start of March to give time for all the January movements, but it would be great if they could release beta updates for the ME a little earlier like they did for the previous patch.

Also, didn't there used to be 3 patches a year before 2015? Might have been few years before that but I'm sure that 'version 3' was always the final one.

 

 

[Tony Wright 747]

2 hours ago, JulesD said:

Really? So we're stuck with the current flaws until march because that will be the final patch?

As I have posted elsewhere I am happy to wait because then there is more chance of more things being tweaked or fixed.

[Craduco]

When will the promotion bug in the Eredivisie be fixed? I want to start an Ajax save but not with this bug... Fix is taking too long

[Phil Dunphy]

5 hours ago, RobertPage said:

Without this being 100% fact, it follows the pattern of previous years

These have been the release dates for the last few previous games

16.2.0 December 16th, 16.3.0 March 4th,

17.2.0 December 15th, 17.3.0 March 1st,

18.2.0 December 14th, 18.3.0 March 1st, 

19.2.0 December 11th.

more two months without playing

[rdbayly]

There is something wonky going on with ball physics since the last update.

When a keeper deflects a shot wide, the ball dramitcally gains speed rather than slowing.

Anyone else noticing this?

[CFuller]

7 minutes ago, rdbayly said:

There is something wonky going on with ball physics since the last update.

When a keeper deflects a shot wide, the ball dramitcally gains speed rather than slowing.

Anyone else noticing this?

To be honest... yes, I have seen some weird physics going on when it comes to goalkeeper saves.

It might be worth reporting those incidents in the bugs forum, if you haven't done so already. I might do the same when I next load up FM (I'm currently taking a break between saves).

Edited January 11, 2019 by CFuller

[the_gers_fan]

8 hours ago, Phil Dunphy said:

more two months without playing

It’s a sad state of affairs. Purchase the game in November, can’t enjoy the “full” version until March. It’s becoming a regular theme.

[rp1966]

8 hours ago, rdbayly said:

There is something wonky going on with ball physics since the last update.

When a keeper deflects a shot wide, the ball dramitcally gains speed rather than slowing.

Anyone else noticing this?

There's been something off about the ball physics in deflections for a while; predates the current release.  There are two issues that I think need looking at:

• As you have described, sometimes the ball accelerates on deflection, which it obviously shouldn't do. I've seen this with deflection off keepers and also shots/crosses deflecting off defenders.
   
• The second is the way the ball bounces off players as if they were snooker balls. The body has some hardpoints where that is a 'close enough' model (head, knees, elbows), but most hits on the body will cause a significant loss of ball momentum even without any attempt by the player to control, because most parts of the body hit by a ball have give or cause a reaction that draws the impact into the body. Reducing ball momentum in these situations would reduce the mad pinball effects you sometime see in the area.

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by rp1966

[Nathozz]

2 hours ago, the_gers_fan said:

It’s a sad state of affairs. Purchase the game in November, can’t enjoy the “full” version until March. It’s becoming a regular theme.

It shouldn’t be allowed but they have our money now why do they care? 

Customer support has got worse over the years when in fact it should have been getting better.

Their pockets need hurting but that won’t happen because the average gamer probably won’t think anything of certain bugs and think it’s just normal. 

[Armistice]

17 hours ago, JulesD said:

Really? So we're stuck with the current flaws until march because that will be the final patch?

Usually the last patch is more about January transfers, not sure when was the last time they have made major tweaks to the ME.

[CFuller]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't nearly every computer game get patches for months (and in some cases years) after they are released? SI's approach to updating their game is not much different to any other developer's approach.

FM19 was playable on full release, in spite of the inevitable bugs that will creep into such a complex game. >95% of FMers would say it is playable now. SI just need time to fix as many bugs as they can to make sure the game is in its best possible state after the final patch comes out.

[BigV]

2 minutes ago, CFuller said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't nearly every computer game get patches for months (and in some cases years) after they are released? SI's approach to updating their game is not much different to any other developer's approach.

FM19 was playable on full release, in spite of the inevitable bugs that will creep into such a complex game. >95% of FMers would say it is playable now. SI just need time to fix as many bugs as they can to make sure the game is in its best possible state after the final patch comes out.

Ohhh God no, full release was just as awful, the beta was the best of all. At the start you could have the best team on the planet and still draw 0-0 after dominating almost every game and then get some kid saying "it's your tactic" to then believe it was the game... it's a mess and they should've waited a another year to make sure all "the bugs" are sorted. They usually change it every 2 years and they made a huge change in 18 where most things were changed for good or for bad. They rushed this whole thing without giving it real time and it seems they don't acknowledge it BUT a few changes in the ME could make it the best in the game. Weather they follow up on that is their choice but this is by far one of the worst ones in recent times and will probably stay that way, 

[CFuller]

3 minutes ago, BigV said:

Ohhh God no, full release was just as awful, the beta was the best of all. At the start you could have the best team on the planet and still draw 0-0 after dominating almost every game and then get some kid saying "it's your tactic" to then believe it was the game... it's a mess and they should've waited a another year to make sure all "the bugs" are sorted. They usually change it every 2 years and they made a huge change in 18 where most things were changed for good or for bad. They rushed this whole thing without giving it real time and it seems they don't acknowledge it BUT a few changes in the ME could make it the best in the game. Whether they follow up on that is their choice but this is by far one of the worst ones in recent times and will probably stay that way, 

What do you mean by "they should've waited another year"?

I can still remember playing the FM18 demo. The football I saw at that stage in FM18's development cycle was ugly, and competent defending was barely even a thing. I would say the FM19 match engine looks miles better, but that is just my opinion.

[Nathozz]

1 hour ago, CFuller said:

What do you mean by "they should've waited another year"?

I can still remember playing the FM18 demo. The football I saw at that stage in FM18's development cycle was ugly, and competent defending was barely even a thing. I would say the FM19 match engine looks miles better, but that is just my opinion.

They go from one extreme to another though. They can’t find the right balance. I never had any issues up until the new update now goals are flying in from miles out. It takes away how good an actual long range goal or freekick is.

All it takes it’s SI to say, these issues have been noted and we are looking into them but no they try to pretend they’re not there. 

[CFuller]

Just now, Nathozz said:

They go from one extreme to another though. They can’t find the right balance. I never had any issues up until the new update now goals are flying in from miles out. It takes away how good an actual long range goal or freekick is.

All it takes it’s SI to say, these issues have been noted and we are looking into them but no they try to pretend they’re not there. 

With regards to long-range goals, it's a bit difficult to say if there's an obvious issue. Not all FMers have the same ideas of how many long-range goals are too much, not enough or just right. I saw about 8-10 such goals in my most recent season with Fiorentina, which seems perfectly fine to me.

If you browse through the bugs forum, you will see many posts from Sports Interactive employees saying that certain issues have been logged and are under review. Why don't we see them appear on GD that often (aside from Neil, Seb and one or two others)? I believe there've been issues in the past where SI staff members have responded to complaints, only to receive completely unacceptable abuse in return.

It's now a case of "damned if they do, damned if they don't". SI are criticised when they don't respond to complaints and abused when they do.

[Phil Dunphy]

5 hours ago, the_gers_fan said:

It’s a sad state of affairs. Purchase the game in November, can’t enjoy the “full” version until March. It’s becoming a regular theme.

It is. By far my favourite game but it’s total unplayable at the moment. And it wasn’t bad until the 19.2 patch. I simply can’t play a game where you win games with the long shot lotary. 

[kandersson]

Last three editions of the game didn't have any significant ME change in the final patch in March. Just saying...

[rdbayly]

I'm potentially facing the sack after being knocked out in the Europa league qualifying stages by Austrian team LASK. I lost 1-0 at home to rebound from a free-kick. I also lost 1-0 away to a rebound from a corner.

For the second leg, I used the analysis tool to conduct my own SIBOT analysis, eliminating all errant long range attempts and free kicks. 

10 world class saves by their keeper, who was awarded man of the match by a country mile. He tipped one on to the bar from point blank range, made a triple save from a free kick, and one of my player (No.20) managed to miss from virtually on the line. The one off the woodwork was a near open goal from a cutback, missed.

There is nothing wrong with this by the way, I just wanted to post this as it can sometimes happen. Last season everything went my way and I robbed the AI countless times. This season, the reverse is the case. FM remains the only game that can access the user's full range of emotions in a matter of seconds. The level of anger I felt after this tie (the same happened in the first leg btw) - I could have committed mass-murder.

I knew finishing in a Europa League spot could spell the end of this particular save.  6 qualifying matches in August have wrecked my league form. I've essentially 'done a Burnley'. 

We've got Man City away in 3 days..

Edited January 12, 2019 by rdbayly

[Sunstrikuuu]

7 hours ago, kandersson said:

Last three editions of the game didn't have any significant ME change in the final patch in March. Just saying...

Striker movement remaining as it is would be fairly disappointing.  Issues were reported by multiple people as far back as the second beta patch.

[iiMStevo]

On 29/12/2018 at 14:13, CFuller said:

The biggest win in the 27-season history of the Premier League is 9-0. Manchester City's biggest league wins last season were 6-0 (at Watford), 5-0 (vs Crystal Palace) and 7-2 (vs Stoke).

You can add to that the fact that bottom-six teams will naturally be more tactically cautious against your team and will try their level best not to get humiliated. It is - quite simply - not realistic to expect 10-0s against them (unless Burnley happen to have a squad full of National League North players).

In the 27-season history of the premier league, has there ever been a team that's been 4-0 up before the 15 minute mark, and then proceeded to hit the woodwork of the goal 17 times in the remaining 75 minutes, and have a total of 42 shots with the scoreline finishing 4-1 and the opposing team have a single shot all game? This scenario is pretty much every game at the moment on my save because my team is constructed of just world class players, and a couple of youths capable of making it to world class status. The game always seems to compensate. It understands my team is going to win, and 99% of the time, they do, but the scoreline never reflects the dominance. They could have 85% possession and 100 shots on target, and still only win 4-0... The biggest win I've had yet is 6-0 in three seasons, and that was against Spurs.

[CFuller]

3 minutes ago, iiMStevo said:

In the 27-season history of the premier league, has there ever been a team that's been 4-0 up before the 15 minute mark, and then proceeded to hit the woodwork of the goal 17 times in the remaining 75 minutes, and have a total of 42 shots with the scoreline finishing 4-1 and the opposing team have a single shot all game?

Either you are grossly exaggerating, or that is remarkably bad luck.

Also, why are you particularly bothered about your team not winning by huge scorelines? At 4-0 up, the game is effectively over already... unless you're Arsenal at St James' Park. 

[kandersson]

46 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

Striker movement remaining as it is would be fairly disappointing.  Issues were reported by multiple people as far back as the second beta patch.

FM 16 issues with crossing/defending flanks were also reported and acknowledged early but couldn't be fixed on final patch because of the risk of messing up the balance of match engine. I could see the same thing happening this year especially after recent pattern so personally I'd be surprised to see significant ME changes on next update, hopefully I'm wrong though!

[BigV]

12 hours ago, CFuller said:

What do you mean by "they should've waited another year"?

I can still remember playing the FM18 demo. The football I saw at that stage in FM18's development cycle was ugly, and competent defending was barely even a thing. I would say the FM19 match engine looks miles better, but that is just my opinion.

I meant in the sense of doing big changes- I should've clarified that. They used to apply big changes every 2 years into the FM games, as soon as it hit 18 theoretically should've applied the changes to fm20 but was "rushed" for this one. Have you noticed how bad the ME is? long shots are a guarantee, work the ball into the box is barely useful and strikers barely move well enough for their specific roles. Icardi might aswell act like lukaku upfront. Biggest of issues such as: set pieces, striker movement, wingbacks cutting in, central play and longshots make the game almost unplayable, we buy this game to enjoy it because we act like managers. You can't do that with this one because what you telling the system forces another thing to happen. As one of the guys said that was re-quoted, how can you expect a game to come out when we have to wait for march for it to be patched up. It's almost like it's a stunt to get money (allegedly) for the next game.  

[CFuller]

20 minutes ago, BigV said:

I meant in the sense of doing big changes- I should've clarified that. They used to apply big changes every 2 years into the FM games, as soon as it hit 18 theoretically should've applied the changes to fm20 but was "rushed" for this one. Have you noticed how bad the ME is? long shots are a guarantee, work the ball into the box is barely useful and strikers barely move well enough for their specific roles. Icardi might aswell act like lukaku upfront. Biggest of issues such as: set pieces, striker movement, wingbacks cutting in, central play and longshots make the game almost unplayable, we buy this game to enjoy it because we act like managers. You can't do that with this one because what you telling the system forces another thing to happen. As one of the guys said that was re-quoted, how can you expect a game to come out when we have to wait for march for it to be patched up. It's almost like it's a stunt to get money (allegedly) for the next game.  

I feel the ME is at a decent enough level, though it can obviously be improved (and will never be perfect).

Long shots are no guarantee. Like I said, I saw fewer than a dozen in one full season with Fiorentina post-update. Looking through the goal stats of other Serie A teams, there didn't seem to be absurd numbers of long shots.

"Work ball into box" is not a magic button that stops your players shooting from long range. If it doesn't work well with your other tactical instructions, roles and duties, it will indeed be "barely useful". I'm sure a more experienced tactician than myself will enlighten you further.

FM is never free of bugs when it comes out in November. It never has been. Sure, you might have to wait until March to see the game at its very best, but it is still playable in the meantime.

Besides, it could be much worse. I remember as a 12-year-old lad having to wait until March 2003 for Championship Manager 4 to even be released... and even then, it wasn't really in a good enough state to justify the hype.

Seriously... what do you want Sports Interactive to do differently for FM20?

Edited January 12, 2019 by CFuller

[Svenc]

3 hours ago, kandersson said:

FM 16 issues with crossing/defending flanks were also reported and acknowledged early but couldn't be fixed on final patch because of the risk of messing up the balance of match engine. I could see the same thing happening this year especially after recent pattern so personally I'd be surprised to see significant ME changes on next update, hopefully I'm wrong though!

And the "FM 17 fix" for that, e.g. wide midfielders sitting out wide on defending, caused third division sides to be all over first division ones when they had a man Advantage in the centre of the park (and knap's, TFFs et all multitudes Keep it central, stupid, exploits of that to turn into Comedy Gold whenever an AI happend to sit Deep and plug the middle of the pitch)  .  Not sayingn that any of this may repeat, mind. 
 

For my tastes, there's too much talk About perceived weaknesses of the attacking Phase and movement in General. That is a natural bias naturally, as similar to football Viewers, FMers tend to prefer the spectacle. Whilst both attackind/defending phases need to be balanced off one another -- the key to developing the most robust ME ever imo is FM simulating zonal defending "proper" first, that is modeling the defending as "realistic" as possible first. This means including the more physical aspects of defending better with an actual collision between Players/bodies. But also teams defending as Units ever more intelligently. Likely easier posted than put into action, no less as the game still also caters to really really ancient PCs, which means there's likely a finite headroom as to actual calculations. Which also likely won't last forever.   

Edited January 13, 2019 by Svenc

[akkm]

3 hours ago, Svenc said:

And the "FM 17 fix" for that, e.g. wide midfielders sitting out wide on defending, caused third division sides to be all over first division ones when they had a man Advantage in the centre of the park (and knap's, TFFs et all multitudes Keep it central, stupid, exploits of that to turn into Comedy Gold whenever an AI happend to sit Deep and plug the middle of the pitch)  .  Not sayingn that any of this may repeat, mind. 
 

For my tastes, there's too much talk About perceived weaknesses of the attacking Phase and movement in General. That is a natural bias naturally, as similar to football Viewers, FMers tend to prefer the spectacle. Whilst both attackind/defending phases need to be balanced off one another -- the key to developing the most robust ME ever imo is FM simulating zonal defending "proper" first, that is modeling the defending as "realistic" as possible first. This means including the more physical aspects of defending better with an actual collision between Players/bodies. But also teams defending as Units ever more intelligently. Likely easier posted than put into action, no less as the game still also caters to really really ancient PCs, which means there's likely a finite headroom as to actual calculations. Which also likely won't last forever.   

This is the wrong way to look at it svenc...until attacking patterns and movements are simulated better then that's what will impede the development of the engine.

Until you do that you will be stuck with circular balancing exercises which we see every year. You talk of bias towards a tendency to prefer the spectacle but there has been a pervasive bias towards the defensive side on FM to the detriment of the attacking side of it. I've actually just made a couple of posts about this here but some users of FM tend to want to get the feeling that it's there tactical choices that make the difference to the outcome of matches and are unaware of how the undersimulation of the attacking side of the game has 'reverse exploited' things to their benefit

also the classic nerfing of central attacking play 

Central play has actually been undersimulated every year bar FM17 since the rewrite to varying degrees it just hasn't been as noticeable it to the same extent as this year. it's come in various guises

- Too many shots – as a result of underdeveloped ball circulation passing options/movement lack of through ball tendencies when there means when central players shoot meaning shot counts see serious spikes

- Too many crosses – as a result of propensity to use players out wide several iterations have seen numbers of crosses per game significantly exceeding real world. Mitigation of this may have taken form of improved defending positionally/restricting forays of full backs/wingers but the long term solution is to programme decision making to see recycling the ball of circulating inside as the better option/decision

- Poor finishing/lack of variation in finishing...generally in play through the middle. over the years some of the finishing from crosses/diagonal passes from out to win has been remarkably good

- Poor ‘one on ones’...again players slotted in through the middle have low finishing rates in FM (I know svenc you question that but big chance conversion rates suggest higher rates than even you like to admit )

- Play blocked through the middle forcing passes too frequently out to wider players

- offside frequency high most often preventing players slotted in through the middle

- If you consider the options for wide players cross from x2, cross frequency x2, aim crosses at x4 it offers an ability to have a more concentrated and specified means to attack and as a result may imply an increased frequency by which this will be utilised

- Crossing overpowered effectiveness wise...FM18 check out tactics uploaded on forums...many favoured wing backs some getting double digit assists which isn't a thing in the real world.

So yet another bias in FM against quality attacking patterns.

Overall though unless you enhance attacking patterns and the complementary attacking movement to offer better passing decisions/options to enable more fluid higher quality attacking play then the defensive side cannot be simulated to its maximum. If you do defending first then you won't actually know if the coded core decision making from an attacking point of view is on point as it will be masked by defensive elements...there's no better example of this than this year's well documented (and very well evidenced) threads on central attacking play and lack of central through balls.

The million dollar question has been why has it been deficient this year particularly as to why there was an obvious lack of central through balls. Was it lack of movement by strikers, was it better simulated defending in terms of narrowness, the AI defending so deep so often, is it the lack of spaces available to AMC playmakers to play them into...these are all factors which affect it but the thread below shows definitively and beyond contestation that the core pass decision making to identify and execute these passes isn't being simulated properly to begin with. So this is a glaring omission from the code to enable quality attacking play and therefore a significant element of a users/managers arsenal to try and help unlock all sorts of defences and all sorts of opposition lineups is missing...so basic default decision making is not in FM to try and attack and creativity is woefully short as a result. So this proves that the much talked about weakness in the attacking phase is far from a perceived one but a very very real one...you might say Svenc, any denial of this having seen attached is indeed one indulging one's bias .  That was just through balls but other quality and deft passes in tight areas/threaded passes into feet/passes into pen area putting player in for a shot given angle of run/one twos etc etc...these are also severely undersimulated and needed to break down tight defences

In terms of development of the match engine as you can see trying to identify the problem in the first place can be masked/hidden by strong defensive elements. Therefore developing the defensive side of things first will only mask core issues further meaning further fixes/workarounds to change things are like the 'proverbial band aid fix' with these causing knock ons causing knocks ons ad infinitum.

The way to develop the engine to enable it to achieve its potential most efficiently and most expeditiously is by maxing out the attacking side first in terms of pass selection/decision making and ensuring it's all working well. In essence by doing that the attack should destroy a defence for all the right footballing reasons. Then at that point defending should be addressed whereby it can be coded to deal with and cope with attack maxed out. Defending is mostly reactive anyway. Then you can model positional play/zonal and man and how that movement will prevent passing lanes/block spaces/deal with player runs/behaves as a block to move as a unit around the pitch within a team framework keeping its structure as required etc etc

 

 

 

 

 

[dking]

Is the "overwhelmed by the feedback" (every player) reaction to touch line shouts a bug?

[Armistice]

20 hours ago, kandersson said:

Last three editions of the game didn't have any significant ME change in the final patch in March. Just saying...

I also doubt 19.3 will contain any substantial ME updates. It will likely update the transfers in January + tweaks to league bugs. Personally I knew this year’s edition is done when those few people did lots of testing in the public beta before 19.2, submitted pkms and the only thing they did was to come out and say this is the best ME they have ever released (lol) and the so-called bugs are long term, so personally I think they’ll hold the fixes for next year’s edition to convince skeptics to buy the game again.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Armistice

[rp1966]

2 hours ago, akkm said:

This is the wrong way to look at it svenc...until attacking patterns and movements are simulated better then that's what will impede the development of the engine.

 

The way to develop the engine to enable it to achieve its potential most efficiently and most expeditiously is by maxing out the attacking side first in terms of pass selection/decision making and ensuring it's all working well. In essence by doing that the attack should destroy a defence for all the right footballing reasons. Then at that point defending should be addressed whereby it can be coded to deal with and cope with attack maxed out. Defending is mostly reactive anyway. Then you can model positional play/zonal and man and how that movement will prevent passing lanes/block spaces/deal with player runs/behaves as a block to move as a unit around the pitch within a team framework keeping its structure as required etc etc

 

 

I strongly agree with this.  Given that any algorithm for player action selection has a default position of perfect knowledge, and human fallibility has to be introduced by probabilities of making a mistake. it is logical to assume that the ME is already capable of far better attacking play.  This is also shown by the fact that the problem keeps moving depending on how the play is tweaked. The capability for a lot of the play we want to see is already there; it just doesn't happen as it should.  

I suspect that what we have been seeing over the last few iterations is attacking play being tuned down (nerfed, if you prefer) to the limitations of the defensive side to generate results roughly in line with the real world and keep the stats-bunnies happy. So while the probabilities could be tuned to improve attacking play, that won't happen because (as has happened in the past)  if game scores start getting too high there is a huge outcry - even greater than for the current problems.

So svenc is right to say that defending is what needs to be improved, but that won't happen without letting the attacking side off the leash. 

 

 

[Mitja]

23 minutes ago, Armistice said:

I also doubt 19.3 will contain any substantial ME updates. It will likely update the transfers in January + tweaks to league bugs. Personally I knew this year’s edition is done when those few people did lots of testing in the public beta before 19.2, submitted pkms and the only thing they did was to come out and say this is the best ME they have ever released (lol) and the so-called bugs are long term, so personally I think they’ll hold the fixes for next year’s edition to convince skeptics to buy the game again.

i think Neil kind of hinted there will be updates but we'll have to wait to see if there will be ME changes. i'm also not too optimistic to see big changes but to leave ME in current state, i don't know all i can say is i bought the game and all i did was testing it. i have no desire to play it currently. it defenetely has potential to be the best ME ever but this is not finished product imo and SI can just postpone it, like you said for next year.

[Weller1980]

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

I also doubt 19.3 will contain any substantial ME updates. It will likely update the transfers in January + tweaks to league bugs. Personally I knew this year’s edition is done when those few people did lots of testing in the public beta before 19.2, submitted pkms and the only thing they did was to come out and say this is the best ME they have ever released (lol) and the so-called bugs are long term, so personally I think they’ll hold the fixes for next year’s edition to convince skeptics to buy the game again.

By next year we will have a whole bunch of new ME bugs, the cycle never ends. There is always something wrong. The only difference is we are normally left with fairly balanced ME at this point of development, this years engine is awful, no central play is just unforgivable, then to publicically say it’s the best ME ever is a joke.

How can a ME with no central play be the best ME ever, through balls and good striker movement is a massive part of real world football, and for someone who loves playing in a style of central play the ME is unplayable, Yes unplayable I said it, and I haven’t played my favourite game in weeks. I might have to drop back to FM18.

Some feedback from SI on what’s going on would be nice, something like “we are working on central play fixes for the final patch but no promises” or “sorry guys the ME issues are to deep routed to fix for this years version but,  we’re looking into correcting it for fm20. A quick statement from SI isn’t to much to ask for is it?

Edited January 13, 2019 by Weller1980

[robot_skeleton]

44 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

By next year we will have a whole bunch of new ME bugs, the cycle never ends. There is always something wrong. The only difference is we are normally left with fairly balanced ME at this point of development, this years engine is awful, no central play is just unforgivable, then to publicically say it’s the best ME ever is a joke.

How can a ME with no central play be the best ME ever, through balls and good striker movement is a massive part of real world football, and for someone who loves playing in a style of central play the ME is unplayable, Yes unplayable I said it, and I haven’t played my favourite game in weeks. I might have to drop back to FM18.

Some feedback from SI on what’s going on would be nice, something like “we are working on central play fixes for the final patch but no promises” or “sorry guys the ME issues are to deep routed to fix for this years version but,  we’re looking into correcting it for fm20. A quick statement from SI isn’t to much to ask for is it?

I agree with you and I don't play FM19 either, but to be honest I don't even know what would qualify as good central movemenet for me at this point, that's how confused I'm with this whole situation (my idea would be to have different roles make different kinds of movement, e. g. if I have an attacking central mid and a playmaker in the middle, and my wide midfielder recieves the ball on the wing, then make the attacking player move forward and the playmaker move towards the ball, but that does not happen). First of all a lot of people seem to just gloss over it, how are they okay with this? Secondly my problem is not only central play, but the decision-making of players in general, too. Why are all my midfielders waiting the ball in middle congested, and the wide players so far wide in any formation? Another one, why aren't playmakers run with the ball, dwell on it, wait a bit, pass backwards etc.? Thirdly strikers who are supposed to drop off, namely false9s, deep-lying forwards are not doing their jobs. And lastly, the positioning of players is just off. Easy example, a lot of the times the winger and the fullback are waiting the ball in line with each other, now how is that good posititioning (even though I told one of them to sit narrower when the team has the ball).