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bar333

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Everything posted by bar333

  1. I used to think that. In fact that approach made sense to me and worked in previous years when facing a parked bus. You can see from the tactics I posted that I'm not normally playing a high press. What I've learned from this thread in that regard though has helped me. It made me observe the AI more closely in full match mode and see what they do, and upon doing that I quickly realized more often than not the AI has no interest whatsoever in playing football, much less scoring a goal. By "inviting" them on all I was doing was allowing them to dominate possession in their own half and take no risks with either their passing or forward runs. At the end of the day the AI needs to be willing to make the bare minimum effort to score in order for you to be able to exploit spaces and gaps in their shape when possession is gained. And quite simply it's not showing that willingness. So the best bet for me has been to move to far more aggressive tactics than the ones I posted. I don't want the let the AI play because the AIs idea of "playing" in these games is to just waste time on the ball from the first minute.
  2. @Svenc Generally I'm always on less than 0.5 goals a game in the league. This may not sound so extreme but it's hugely skewed by both long range screamers and set pieces. I honestly couldn't tell you the last time I conceded a goal that didn't fall into one of those two categories. Bayern are the only team that reliably scores VS me from open play. I could even cut those down somewhat by taking preventative measures once I'm in control of the game, like pushing Dline higher and defending narrower, they should limit long shots and set pieces in dangerous areas but as I've said I just don't really bother. Teams having 0 shots on target against me is a very common occurrence. Many times they don't even have a shot on goal until the 80th minute or so when they finally decide to start playing but the game is already well past them at that point, maybe they get a couple of pot shots at goal and a corner.
  3. Except it is easy to score and it is easy to win though. I feel like one recurring theme when people complain about FM19 whether on this issue or the ME issues is that people think it's about results for those complaining. I see it both in @Experienced Defender and @Rashidi's posts. There's no difference between my success on FM19 and what I had in previous years managing big clubs (which I didn't start with since atm I'm with Stuttgart, but I made it huge in a clubhopping save). It's the same results but with far less goals conceded and less goals scored, more comfortable wins but not nearly as many tight and close games or 5,6 nil drubbings against the trash teams. I'm still thumping the AI overall and winning trophies with a club like Stuttgart, negative net spend, etc. I'm still winning most games comfortably. I'm in the middle of, as of right now, a 28 match unbeaten run in the league. The AI isn't really putting up a challenge anymore than it ever did. In fact, I'd argue it's the opposite - the AI's ludicrous negativity actually makes the game easier in the long run because in the vast majority of league games I'm facing opposition that is not interested in the slightest in scoring a goal or challenging me at the back. I don't think I've ever had an unbeaten run that long and honestly I don't see it ending any time soon. It's not that I'm a genius - the AI isn't trying to beat me so of course I won't be beaten. I've had the best defence in the league every single season and barely concede goals, I can get away with playing 17 year old wonderkids at the back because they won't be tested anyway. The AI offers no threat whatsoever outside of the odd set piece even when they are trailing. And I'm doing all this while making very few changes to my tactics to counter specific opponents. I've stopped trying to analyze the parked bus and "counter" it a while ago, I just accepted that when out of 34 league games you will be facing a team that's playing for a 0-0 in ~28 of them, then 4-5 will manage it too. That's just a statistical reality. And because of what @fidelitywars says which is spot on - not everyone enjoys being that analytical about things. And it kind of points at a bigger point and this may be a controversial thing to say around here, understandably so - you don't really need to do the stuff we get up to in this forum to get results if that's what you care about. People get success with all sorts of wild downloaded tactics that they never change for any game. I say 'understandably' because the real reason we're all here is we enjoy the tactical side of the game, to different extents obviously but still. We all want to buy the illusion that FM sells. And I share that - I want the team to play a certain way, I want to feel rewarded for what are basic tactical decisions but in my head I'll tell myself they're making all the difference, etc. It's precisely for these reasons that this issue with FM19 is so egregious in my opinion. It makes games too samey, it seriously limits the beautiful football moves you want to see because those are difficult to pull off against such negative tactics, it forces you to play a certain way. It makes the journey boring as hell.
  4. I'm at the point now where I'm absolutely convinced it is not intended behavior of the AI and no one can tell me otherwise. I'm sorry to @Rashidi and others and this is not a dig at anyone but I'm well past the point of having it explained to me that it's just the "AI being smart with mentality". 90 percent of league games against a completely parked bus that doesn't register a shot on goal and doesn't change even when they're down? Nah, I'm not having it. It's broken code, not a design decision. File under "Bugs", of the almost game-breaking variety. Can only echo the last two comments, these are the exact same experiences I have with FM19. My last league game was at home vs Hertha Berlin, league leaders with a 4 point gap from me. Storming the league, trashing teams, unbeaten. Game of the season so far right? They actually parked the bus. Full contain mode, no shots on goal, like the teams at the bottom of the table play against me. Got the 1-0, think from a penalty on a set piece. They stuck with it - didn't change their tactics a bit, didn't give a flying toss about attempting to equalize - the league leaders! Game ended with a comfortable 3-0 win for me. They were never near this game. It was only at 3-0 down after more than 80 minutes that they figured "hmm, maybe we should try and score a goal" and changed from the parked bus. It's hard for the game to surprise me at this point but this was the worst I've seen yet, the sheer absurdity of the situation caught me by surprise, I genuinely wasn't expecting them to do that. It convinced me that the AI isn't even following any sort of logic. It's like somewhere in the code, half the algorithm is missing. I also happen to be a programmer and it feels to me like those instances where I debug my code and see the same things happening every time regardless of input, like I forgot to run some check somewhere and a flag is never set, ever, so the same section of code is always executed even when it shouldn't be. The type of thing that seems so obvious once you finally catch it. It will be fixed\changed, whether in a patch for FM19 or for FM20 I don't know. But I'm convinced it cannot be intended behavior. So any discussions on it's merits, whether it's good for "challenge" (my results in FM19 haven't been any different from past FM's - it's just that the journey tends to be far more boring) etc can be shelved for now, from my point of view. We need SI to notice this, but I get that they're on holidays or just coming back or w\e.
  5. They do in cups too. Just played an away game in the cup, parked bus for 80 mins til they finally went 1-0 down from a set piece. Who does this? What is the logic? What was the plan exactly? To drag me into extra time for the sake of it? To penalties so their own squad can get hammered physically by ET as well? Can any of the staunch defenders of this hyper realistic game point me to perhaps one of the FA Cup games this weekend where one team parked the bus for 90 mins? Is the AI even concerned with getting a result at this point, or is it simply playing to ruin the player's enjoyment? This issue + ME issues turn this game into an unbearably bad edition of FM if I look at it objectively. Never before has been it easier to play for a 0-0, never before has 0-0 been this common, never before has it been easier to turn a 0-0 into a daylight robbery 1-0 with a goal that doesn't come from any real football move - set piece, long shot, etc - which are the most common goals in FM19. This is the FM for the Tony Pulis, Jose Mourinho, Sam Allardyce et al school of managers. Rob teams blind or be robbed yourself. The only thing that keeps me playing FM19 right now is my attachment to my save, my regens etc. I'm already in 2027. If my save gets corrupted tomorrow I am back to FM18 without giving it a milisecond's thought. There isn't even a shadow of doubt in my mind about that. For all it's flaws, of which there were many, it is miles ahead of this one in terms of pure entertainment value\fun factor. FM19 is a snoozefest broken up by the odd fun game when the AI decides it wants to play football against you. Fun is the exception to the rule. That there is so little said in these forums about this issue is extremely telling of where people's attentions are. It's astonishing so that few people have even noticed this. Undoubtedly some of those who did have convinced themselves that it makes sense for the AI to behave like this, it's realistic, etc. Mhm.
  6. Let's have a chat about players' reasoning for wanting to leave - they're all understandable with one exception. Can anyone logically explain players deciding they want to leave for the simple reason of "they want me"? "Wants to leave as X have made him top target". Sure, they might a bit crap, a smaller club, whatever - but hey, they want him guys! They even sent some scouts and everything! Talk to the player to convince him to stay - "It will give me a chance to be the main man". Said the Key Player status, highest paid, Team Leader striker with the highest reputation in the team. Hello? Player interactions and lack of context, name me a better duo. The game needs a lot of improvement in many areas when it comes to it's ability to contextualize information. Too many things just seem to happen in a vacuum without the game considering other factors, it's a real lack of attention to detail that this franchise used to pride itself on. Also no idea if this is intended or a bug but a lot of player chats seem to end very abruptly and again in a way that makes no sense. After the player said that to me I told him I can't lose his influence in the dressing room (this is typically pretty effective with influential players), his response? "I'm not prepared to go over this again, bye.", chat finished. I've seen this multiple times in instances where we never had that chat before, including this. And another thing on player chats - why is the appearance of certain responses seemingly random? There's one response that convinces the player and is actually the only one that makes sense in this particular situation and it's telling them that they're too important and influential to let go, but upon multiple reloads I've noticed that it only appears sometimes. If there is a way to placate the player and it's not an unavoidable unhappiness situation clearly, then why is it basically a dice roll as to whether it's provided to me or not?
  7. This is the line of thought I used to follow up until recently but having really observed things more carefully I'd be very careful with doing this. "Inviting" a team that's parking the bus to play doesn't really work if they don't want to play, which very often the AI will not. All you'd be doing is inviting them to knock the ball around endlessly in their own half with no one getting forward & leaving any space to exploit during your attacking transitions. You will just end up with 30% possession and even less chances to score. I don't think people realize just how negative the AIs tactics can get in some of these classic 0-0 games. I'd advise making sure the AI is actually trying to play football before pressing lower & giving them time on the ball. Watch what they do in full match mode.
  8. Yep, it's an issue with FM19 that I feel doesn't get raised anywhere near as often as it should. Both the frequency & the type of tactics used is bizarre and is nothing like football IRL. Frequency - I swear that 80% estimation is not just hyperbole to make a point. Everyone does it against me. I get teams in the top half in great form themselves routinely parking the bus at home. Tactics - truly just playing for a 0-0. I've watched the AI in full match and observed what it does. Defend duties everywhere, full backs don't cross the halfway line, etc. 11 men behind the ball & no attempt to counter attack. These are the type of tactics you only see used IRL to hold onto a result in the last minutes - the AI plays this way for the whole 90. It's no wonder I concede so few goals year in year out - these tactics often don't register a single shot on goal. You can drop dline & press lower to see what they do with the ball, they will simply dominate possession by keeping the ball in their own half and rarely playing it forward. Did I say playing for a 0-0? Sometimes I doubt even that since even being a goal down they will not change their tactics until the 85th minute at least. It's my biggest problem with the game by a huge margin. SI have taken it too far, the AI has got to pick their defensive tactics less & those themselves have got to be less negative and at least allow it to counter attack outside of specific scenarios.
  9. People point to tactics and honestly with THAT many 0-0's there's definitely an issue with OP's tactics I mean that's half your games, but 0-0's are surprisingly common when you play a top team in your league due to the extreme negativity of the AI. I'm comfortably sitting top and having pretty easy success with a top team in Germany but still end up with 3-4 of them a season. The AI is absolutely relentless with it's negative tactics, especially when you're in good form. Been to the tactics forum, got the t-shirt, I beat most parked buses but you can't beat them all - statistically, when the opposition in 80% of your league games tries to play for a 0-0 (and I wish I was exaggerating the number - I promise that I'm not), it's bound to succeed sometimes. Simple law of big numbers.
  10. This is helpful in general and I thank you for it, but personally this kind of thing has not been an issue for me i.e big matches in the CL. We do well in big games and I actually won the CL last season having beaten Barcelona, Liverpool then Bayern in the final. I just play our normal game with maybe some slight adjustments against these top sides and trust we'll come out on top, defensively we're always good in these games and in general. For example the game that preceded said third 0-0 of the season? A 3-0 thrashing of Bayern at their place, who were hot on my tail in the league and in great form. No special preparation, I've just had Bayern's number all along and we tend to hammer teams that give us space with quick transitions. What I'd be more interested in is entirely from the standpoint of your attacking play and how you analyse during or before the game when you expect a parked bus or facing one and during the game you see that you're just not creating any good chances. I watched your video where you beat Huddersfield and it was pretty great to see how you managed to create that ridiculous amount of space for Gomez on the right, I think being able to do that consistently is what a lot of people really wish they'd be able to do. I find the AI far better at getting 0-0 draws against me than it is at actually beating me with top teams. It feels highly competent in one and not so much in the other which is why people win the biggest trophies with small teams in a relatively short time frame in FM. In fact I'm almost into January and we're still unbeaten in all competitions and actually in some ridiculous unbeaten streak stretching back to last season. We don't lose, it's 0-0's at home vs teams that come to stink up the place which are the bane of our existence. Honestly this all sounds like great results right? Cause it is. The tactic is ok on paper. It's adjusting things during a game that I struggle with.
  11. Are you sure about this? There are two attributes that I've never ever seen changing and always considered them "built in" to the player and those are Aggression and Natural Fitness. Maybe there are certain events that can happen that would change them and I've never encountered them.
  12. @Neil Brock Can't answer for OP but personally I also feel a lot of slowness and slugishness compared to previous FM's. It's neither in the match nor in processing but just the UI itself is often chugging along and response times are low with lengthy pauses between clicking on say a player and the profile coming up. This is most noticeable with the tactics screen which takes a good 2-3 seconds to come up I think, I also saw that this acknowledged by SI but it's not just the tactics screen, it happens with most UI elements only to a lesser extent. A good example is the inbox, there's an annoying little pause when clicking space to go to the next unread message.
  13. The striker thing I also considered mentioning, you're absolutely right. The crushing majority of strikers are pacy advanced forward types with great physicals and scoring related attributes but typically poor passing, vision, teamwork, flair etc. Good luck playing a system with a false nine in 2026 guys. The whole thing is pretty darn frustrating. It's not just the difficulty in finding players that suit certain roles, it also makes for a pretty bland game world as so many of the world class regents are basically the same player and there's no sense of uniqueness to them.
  14. Thank you for the responses. @summatsupeer the point of the screenshots wasn't stats but to show the average positions of the opposition to illustrate what I'm struggling with. Third 0-0 at home now having watched most of the game on Full Match and made multiple adjustments to roles + duties during the game to address what I thought I saw, this time to the team dead in last. Ultra defensive 5-4-1 this time, my thought was exploit the flanks but it didn't work. I realize the key thing is roles and duties but most times I can't pick up on these subtleties and understand which roles + duties to change and where. I made a lot of changes during that game, especially with the players on the flanks but not just. Interestingly the one and only thing that actually made us look more likely to score was taking off my striker and subbing in a tall, strong, burly target man type and putting him on TM-A role to occupy CB's. He got some headers in and more importantly won a penalty which we missed. I'll keep chipping away at it and refer to this thread when in need. More than anything what would help is understanding how people analyse where the problems are, I mean in actual in game terms. What do you do? Watch 2D on full match for a bit? Look at shots, or heatmaps? I don't really see what I'm missing but it is what it is. I'm glad at least some people are enjoying the FM19 AI's newfound... err.. tactical nous of putting 11 men + the kit guy + the cafeteria lady on the edge of their box.
  15. @FMunderachiever I'm not sure what the game would consider "risky" for CB's. Logic dictates that it simply depends on the situation. If they're not under pressure then attempting the long ball when there's a safe simple passing option would be the risky move, however if they are being pressed then it's refusing to clear it long which would be the risky move. When it comes to CB's and roles I think you have to differentiate between hoofed clearance type of balls and actually more calculated diagonal\through balls. The former is what you'd expect from a NNCB when under the tiniest bit of pressure. The latter is what you'd expect from a BPD. So to answer your question I think it depends on what you mean by "long ball". If you want a defender to actually take his time on the ball, look up and attempt an actual long pass then BPD. It's subtle but pretty obvious when you think of real life examples - take Van Dijk at Liverpool vs Carragher at Liverpool. Both play\played the odd "long ball", but there's a big difference in the context and what their idea is with it.
  16. Second successive 0-0, carbon copy of the last game - Seen maybe 3 highlights on extended during the entire 90 mins, from either team. I've put it on full match and seen with my own two eyes the opposition striker hold onto the ball for a good couple of seconds and not a single Hamburg player crossed the halfway line to support him or get forward. This is Hamburg, 4th in the BL, Europa League winners, unbeaten in 8 league games and in great form, one of the best teams in the league at the moment. It's just relentless. It's this, week in, week out without fail. It's not a tactical tool, it's not situational, none of that, it's just this, again and again and again. I don't even care about the results, who does in FM? I just want to see some football. I've followed the common route of "it's your tactics - go to the tactics forum for advice". Clearly no one can point out the obvious flaws, what advice I was given has been applied and it's actually leading to a better main tactic overall - but when the AI sets up like this it looks the same as it always has. So what's a guy to do exactly?
  17. If I lost it'd be better! At least that means the AI pulled one over me and I have something to work with. I'd take losing some and winning some ahead of multiple 0-0 results every season. I just personally can't quite understand SI's thinking on this since the parked bus situation is just completely out of control. It's too negative and the AI does it far too often. Here's an analysis screenie of my last game - Defensive 4-1-4-1, just sit ultra deep and narrow, 11 men behind the ball. This isn't counter attacking underdog football, it looks even more extreme than SI's default Park the Bus preset. There isn't even the pretense of trying to nick a goal, in most of these games (this one included) they don't register a single shot on target and sometimes not a single shot on goal at all. You'd think at least they'd play for set pieces but that doesn't happen either when you don't leave your own half. This is full on contain mode. You maybe see teams playing like this for the last 10-15 mins to hold onto a precious lead, why is the team in 6th place in the BL playing like this for 90 mins, at home? It's frustrating because I feel like I do understand what is happening on the pitch, there's nothing out of the ordinary here, it's a team just covering every inch of their box with 10 players. It's not sophisticated. I just don't see a way around it. I'd love for SI to engage with people more on this and explain why the AI is so much more negative and chooses to do so much more often than in FM18, but for that there needs to be a bigger mass of people asking the question which right now isn't happening unfortunately. At times I even wonder whether it's intended at all, when 80% of my games are like this then you realize it even ignores AI manager tendencies and they all just default to this, plus sometimes the AI doesn't even try attacking until the 88th-89th minute when they're losing, it's like they're playing for a 1-0 defeat and makes no sense.
  18. You need some luck and\or individual brilliance. I can accept that my tactics are not super effective against a parked bus but I maintain that the parked bus in general is too effective in FM19 and those two factors will always be huge. Following some of the advice here I've had slightly better experiences against parked buses in that we tend to at least create more and put teams under the cosh more, but actually creating high quality chances and scoring is still a struggle. Typically IRL when teams manage to park the bus to the extent the AI does it in FM19 (which is far rarer IRL than in FM19, I'm talking teams not even attempting to counter attack) against the big sides it requires top defensive performances from the players - hard work, maintaining concentration for 90 mins, positioning and discipline etc. It's incredibly difficult to do for 90 mins without one cog in the machine collapsing somewhere at some point and bringing the whole thing crashing down. In FM19 it feels easy, it's like the parked bus just stinks the place out and drags both teams down to a terrible game of football. The AI's defenders will always end up with just average ratings having not really needed to perform that well.
  19. I mentioned this in the feedback thread and I feel like the more I progress in my save the more frustrating this is starting to become. I feel like there's a genuine issue with regen attribute spreads being too limited and certain roles being virtually impossible to recruit for past a certain point in the game. I'm coming into the summer of 2026 in my save now, most 23-24 old players are regens at this point and here is basically the breakdown of attribute spreads - Central defenders - no BPD's and barely anyone with even the potential to become one through training. All the top regen CB's have incredible physicals (quickness in particular seems to be weighted far more heavily than in past games for CB's) but very few have anything that passes for even decent technique\passing\first touch etc. Full backs - this one I feel is the biggest issue. I can't for the life of me find any well rounded full backs, never mind attack minded ones. Dribbling & crossing seem to basically be ignored for full backs. Off the Ball tends to be extremely poor. I've searched extensively (with a top club, scouting network etc, not a second division side) and cannot find a single left back in world football at the moment who is <25 yo and has over 12 crossing. I'm struggling to find a single player for even something as simple as a wing back on support duty who's not expected to do anything crazy on the ball, just you know... don't be a complete clogger. This is even worse with crossing & dribbling being unavailable for individual training anymore so what you see is what you get especially when the player is 22, 23 and doesn't have a lot of development left in him. Central midfielders - Playmaker types are by a huge margin the most common types of regen MC's I see. If you want a DLP you have an embarrassment of riches to choose from, but very difficult to find physical & hard working BBM types who are top class. Wide players - lack of inside forwards. Lots and lots of lots of pacy winger types. Now obviously I realize some roles are a bit specialized and need to be trained at a very young age but then why doesn't the AI do this, ever? Some roles I also feel aren't specialized and there should be many more of them coming through, such as more attacking fullbacks, non-playmaker MC's etc. Anyone else having a similar experience? Am I the only one seeing this as a real issue?
  20. I don't want to just to copy paste a tactic, I want to create something to fit my team. I appreciate the help but I want to do things in a certain way and the frustration comes from not being able to do that and not so much from the results. S'alright, you can't win them all and overall my tactic is doing pretty well for me. If being unable to break down the bus is it's weakness then so be it, although I maintain there are ME issues at play that I can't account for - for instance your tactic has a F9, I used to love the F9 role for breaking down a bus in past versions but in FM19 the role doesn't function like I expect it to anymore. I realize now that my above post came off sounding a bit frustrated and bitter but it really is just about having accepted somewhat that anything I do to improve my tactics from what I've got will have very marginal profits if any, clearly me & other members of the forum don't see that much wrong with it on the face of it, no glaring issues popping out. To be perfectly honest I've got a feeling that optimizing my set piece routines will yield more points in those types of games than any changes I make to my base tactic at this point, so that's probably something else to look at.
  21. Overall through all and any changes nothing actually changes, it's still a festival of 0-0's and 1-0's for me with no good chances, no shots on target and no real football. If we can't score from the initial transition then we can't score period, ball goes out wide -> cross blocked -> a nothing corner, repeat until there's no more hair left to pull or you've understandably fallen asleep in front of the monitor at the sight of the scintillating football on display. Sometimes it's a 0-0, others it's a predictable 1-0 defeat from the opposition's only shot on goal. Typically I can tell from the first 10 minutes how a game is going to go, if it goes a certain way I've taken to simply turning on fastest highlights possible & fast forward to the end of the game, take the result and move on. I appreciate the feedback but I'm done trying. Will ride it out with the tactics I have & roll with the punches and try to enjoy the game as much as possible regardless.
  22. You can see it in the analysis tool of individual players for a specific match , there's a Chances tab where you can see CCCs and half chances the player had in a match. For me this comes in spells. I have spells when the strikers bang everything in and spells where they miss everything. I remember one match in particular where due to the way the opposition played my pacy striker had 5 CCCs in a single game, all of them 1v1s and all were fired straight at the keeper. Looking at how the chances are missed is crucial and for me the core of the issue is players are trying the wrong type of finish from the offset - I can't even remember the last time I saw a shot go wide in a 1v1, for my money it just never happens, what they do is always aim at center of goal and fire it straight at the keeper. You see no attempts to go far post when coming at the keeper from an angle.
  23. Another one for the "how long has this issue been around and not fixed" list for me is players not playing on loan. This is just infuriating to no end cause I remember mentioning this as far as back as FM17 or even earlier. Teams offer to take a young player on loan with a First Team squad status and he ends up not playing a single damn minute, never in the matchday squad and playing for the reserves. I remember back then people were basically telling me it's my fault and I should look at their squad and figure out if the player will be getting gametime, it was ridiculous to suggest then and it is now. If the team offers First Team status then it's reasonable to expect the player to play. It's not even that he's not an automatic pick but that they literally don't give him a single minute off the bench, it seems malicious almost, like domestic clubs taking your players then never playing them to hinder their development. Shouldn't be happening. Now granted it doesn't happen as often as it used to in past editions and I'm happy to report that most loanees do play about as much as you'd expect but there shouldn't ever be an instance of this happening.
  24. I guess I haven't mentioned anything about the defence, well defense is rock solid as is so I'm reluctant to change anything for that purpose, I've had the best defence in the league every single season for a while now and am very happy with the system defensively. I will give it a shot as it makes sense. Generally my fear has always been leaving myself vulnerable to a counter especially by being ultra attacking on one flank, which an AP-S, WB-A and MEZ-A very much sounds like to me. But the more I watch these games vs parked buses the more I realize these teams are playing even more defensively than I thought. Typically they don't register a single shot on goal as long as the score is 0-0, even their "attacking transitions" is typically a lone striker just holding onto the ball and trying to play it back, literally no effort to even counterattack. So it looks like I can be as adventurous as I want and not get punished. Any thoughts on the role for the striker?
  25. I realize how an IWB actually plays but you still need a basic level of positional familiarity at DL\DR. If you play someone there who has no idea how to play the position it tanks their decisions and who knows what else. And training someone to play it from scratch is a very long process.
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