"The silent majority", aka FM can't change much

[RBKalle]

With the annoucement of the announcement of FM20, we're all speculating about new features, tweaks, improvements etc, with predictions and wishlists ranging from reasonable and long overdue to complete and unrealistic fantasies.

Still, I feel we're missing the point, by a big margin.

If you've ever taken a tour on one of the many FM groups on Facebook, you'll know what I mean... Thousands of FM players posting screenshots of outlandish scorelines, ridiculously one-sided top-matches ending with waterpolo scorelines, adventurous tactics you wouldn't dare on FIFA/PES, laundry list of expensive transfers or of suspiciously impressive newgens and wonderkids, years-long winning streaks...

In short: the average FM gamer is a lazy guy who's in there to lead whichever club he picks (usually his favourite one and/or a Top Club with a bottomless pit of money) to world domination as soon as he can til he gets bored and starts it again in a different country.
The sheer amount of high-scoring games and of incredible wins makes me think they're all using one of the "supertactics" (likely with bugged set-pieces) to achieve such success so quickly.

Basically FM is, to the majority of the customers, a rather straightforward Power Fantasy where the key is signing better players and clicking Continue to win matches and to see players develop.

So in that scenario, why should SI kill themselves to fine-tune AI transfers, squad building and tactical instructions and I/O results in the ME, while the biggest portion of the players are happy with the game exactly because of those features not being that refined and thus still "exploitable"?
It makes little sense focusing on what is, sadly, marginal stuff that a small, but dedicated, minority wants.

When people finds out Gegenpressing is the most effective style, most will simply use it. Few crazy and stubborn souls will instead try to get Hoofball to work anyway, but that'll likely lead to season upon seasons of midtable finishes in League One. Hardly stuff you brag about on social media. Or a compelling scenario to keep on playing for weeks or months.

So, long story short: FM is "easy" and "flawed" in some aspects because a more realistic, yet punishing, game would alienate a huge section of the customers. While we joke about "Football Therapist 2019", a more appropriate nickname should be "Football Messiah 2019" considering the Power Trip aspect of the game is its biggest selling point...
Changing it would be counterproductive and just poor business.

Like, in F1 games you can jump into a Williams and likely win races. If it was really realistic, you'd be lucky to finish 10th in a race of attrition... But who'd pay to play a chore of a game?

[leviathan1904]

Nobody will pay money for getting frustrated in the long run. A "really realistic" football manager game would mean that 99,9 precent of all gamers have no success and stop playing it. 

Do you have a chance to play the football manager in a more realistic way than the average gamer? Yes, you have. And this is the most important aspect. 

Edited August 31, 2019 by leviathan1904

[phnompenhandy]

I see what you're saying, but I think it's an unfair attack on SI.

SI have to make the game enjoyable to a huge spectrum of players, from your lazy casuals to us diehards.  By your very definition, those lazy players are not going to put in an effort to tweak default settings to make it easier for them, but we are. So it makes sense to make the game in such a way as those of us who want a better challenge simply make the choices to customise the game to how we like it. We are perfectly free to avoid the editor and choose a difficult club in a difficult league, and set further restrictions like a Youth Challenge. What the casuals choose to do and post on social media is not something that need bother us in the slightest.

[shirajzl]

These kind of discussions always come down to the business aspect of things. Gaming is industry, business lead for profit, which I think we often forget.

If early CMs were realistic affairs where you needed 30 years to get from Conference to PL or if you took a mid-table club and had to spend 10 years in mid-table before maybe getting a UEFA Cup spot, this franchise would be, quite bluntly, dead. Games need to be accessible and at least somewhat easy to be fun, and fun for a lot of people simply means winning.

Fixing intricate things in the game OP mentioned also pose an unnecessary risk for SI as a company. We know the old "SI don't have competition, they're lazy and don't care about improving the game". No, I honestly think they care a great deal, it's just that trying to fix some core issues would likely lead to the need of a big overhaul and a few shaky releases before things settle properly. Why would they risk it? Sales number are great every year, people who are interested in the game generally like it, so why plunge yourself in such a risk? That's not prudent in any aspect of life, let alone in business.

[RBKalle]

34 minuti fa, phnompenhandy ha scritto:

I see what you're saying, but I think it's an unfair attack on SI.

It wasn't meant as such!

It was more the realization of our take on the game being a minoritarian one.

If anything, SI are right in keeping it "power-trip-friendly"

19 minuti fa, shirajzl ha scritto:

These kind of discussions always come down to the business aspect of things. Gaming is industry, business lead for profit, which I think we often forget

As said above, it's indeed a smart strategy.

an imperfect AI frustrates a few hundreds diehards who may actually enjoy NOT being able to sign dozens of great free agents or to breeze through divisions.

but that same challenge would alienate thousands of FM-ers who are after a nice relaxing ride.

Then again, a happy medium could be feasible.

 

[shirajzl]

9 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Then again, a happy medium could be feasible.

Feasible, yes, but very, very difficult. The two extremes we're talking about are so far apart that a "happy" medium would be like a compromise in marriage; no one is really happy.

Think about it. On one hand, we have hard core fans who play literally hundreds, if not thousands of hours of FM every iteration, trying out all sorts of tactics, leagues, clubs, challenges...On the other hand, we have an average gamer who buys FM, spends 30 hours playing it with a downloaded tactic, wins everything with Man Utd and leaves the game until next year, perfectly pleased with the whole experience, value for money and all.

[Novem9]

Well if you have any alternative for FM let me know please! Possibly some guys from SI will buy this game too if it really good 

Unfortunatelly we dont have alternative because create a match engine by current developer technology is very very very difficult project.
We can buy or not new version of FM. But it must be personal decision for everyone. 

In the end - its just a game. Change your expectations and enjoy. Or dont play if you can't. Not a big choice, but you keep your nerves. 

FM addiction is horrible thing  We all want better and better every next dose

[RBKalle]

24 minuti fa, shirajzl ha scritto:

Feasible, yes, but very, very difficult. The two extremes we're talking about are so far apart that a "happy" medium would be like a compromise in marriage; no one is really happy.

Think about it. On one hand, we have hard core fans who play literally hundreds, if not thousands of hours of FM every iteration, trying out all sorts of tactics, leagues, clubs, challenges...On the other hand, we have an average gamer who buys FM, spends 30 hours playing it with a downloaded tactic, wins everything with Man Utd and leaves the game until next year, perfectly pleased with the whole experience, value for money and all.

I know...

And that's the sentiment behind my original post.

Actually I think the biggest category of FM'ers is the one of those playing the easy-hardcore way, if this makes any sense. Those who pick a random club somewhere, fire up a SuperTactic, sign all the available wonderkids and hidden gens they can put their paws on (courtesy of countless downloadable shortlists and word-of-mouth) and then go on to have stellar, longish careers dominating the world with Forest Green or FC Santa Claus.

The "5 seasons with City and then let's move on to FIFA or God of War" folks are indeed many but they aren't dedicated enough anyway to notice or be affected by a shift in the long-term dynamics.

Regardless of AI's improvements, you could still realistically go on to have huge success with a Top Club within the first few seasons. All you need is a plug-in tactic and as many reloads as you feel acceptable

On the other hand, a tougher AI would indeed affect the "rags to riches in 5 seasons" brigade. A lot. And that's a slice of the pie SI/SEGA can't really afford to lose.

We know we'll all be there in 2-3 months, moaning about the newest "pointless" feature and about the long-term issues still affecting the game. But also ready to take on the Gibraltar Academy challenge or to tackle the "new and improved" TC (now with 3 new roles and Fluidity Options!) with the same enthusiasm.

You know what? The more I think about it, the more I'm both surprised and happy that FM hasn't "sold out" completely to the casuals and to the Power Trip players...

It could be better (AI, transfers, CA+PA+Rep, quirky ME etc) but it could also be a lot worse, with "Click Continue to Win" being THE only viable playing style.

I guess lurking around Facebook groups has given me a new perspective and a renewed appreciation of the whole game, seeing how people treat it...

[rdbayly]

I’ve given up following all prominent You Tube series because it’s a gegenpress steamroll fest. 

There is giant swathe of the user base that simply wants to win and then declare their achievements ‘remarkable’.

I’d appreciate it if users had a clearly defined tactical identity they persisted with, but the inconvenient truth is that people pick what works in the iteration (striker less narrow in 17, 3 up front last year, gegenpress this year). 

Its a shame the game does not reward the user for solid ideas, yet showers them in trophies for going with flavour of the month for this or that version.

The embarrassing ease with which you can sign star players is a primary reason this game lacks challenge.

Add overly defensive AI and passive transfer policy, it’s no wonder it rains quadruples for the continue button mashers.

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by rdbayly

[kingking]

I don't understand the point OP is trying to make... 

To me this thread says "People love winning on FM 19"

that is like saying "water is wet"

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by kingking

[Bababui]

I might be a majority of one but I wish the game would allow me to invest my profits back into the club as I see fit. Im playing a youth challenge starting in the 7th level of the pyramid and I would like to invest in my youth and training facilities at the expense of any scouting or transfer budget. I realize I could do this through an editor (if I knew the cost to expand) but it feels like cheating. Please SI give me the opportunity to play a save this way.

[masno]

The solution is simple, but SI themselves already said they dislike the idea. Difficulty levels would be the solution to please both publics. You want the classic FM experience, where AI is not so smart to build squads like players are, and you can climb leagues more easily like always, use the classic difficult and be happy with your experience.

But if you are already a experienced player,want to have a real challenge, AI really acts like a real manager, doing business and making tactical changes, exploiting our weakness and everyone actually fighting for success. You will be able to have the 3 save files as always,because corrupt saves always happen, but at the second you or the AI socre a goal,the game insta save to prevent you from reloading. No way to put anything you downloaded in your save,  if you are really looking to cheat, go and do one by one. This hardcore option would have the same ME as the base game, the same tools and features, the only diference would be in the AI smartness to prevent us to simply climb to the top in 5 seasons or less. This would please the guys that play the game with super-tactics, would please the ones that urge for more hardcore options in the game, and would give a real approach to the simulation side with a AI that actually acts like a human being.

[Malicious Penguin]

I'll be honest, I've become the type of person who finds a tactic with positions that suit my squad, and use that - primarily because, before FM19, the tactics had become too in-depth for me. It's one thing I love about FMT, the fact you can see if your tactic works without needing familiarity. I enjoyed getting Hereford to the EPL in consecutive seasons, but then I got bored - it was an empty 'victory'. I want mid-table obscurity!

This thread has made me rethink things. I'm going to fire up FMT again, start a new game, with a lower league/non-big team, and see how I get on. 

 

 

[RBKalle]

3 ore fa, rdbayly ha scritto:

I’d appreciate it if users had a clearly defined tactical identity they persisted with, but the inconvenient truth is that people pick what works in the iteration (striker less narrow in 17, 3 up front last year, gegenpress this year). 

DING DING DING!

We have a winner!

At some stage, after weeks/months of banging your head agains the wall while trying to figure out why your apparently reasonable setup in the TC just doesn't translate at all to the ME and your desired playing style simply isn't happening, you go "sod it!" and go with whichever combination is all the rage in the current version, even if it's far from your original plan.

Which is a shame and makes the game much more boring and uninteresting, because most "success stories" involve only a handful of formations and styles.

3 ore fa, kingking ha scritto:

I don't understand the point OP is trying to make... 

To me this thread says "People love winning on FM 19"

The point is: "most FM players want to win with as little effort as possible, so SI are understandably not killing themselves to make the game particularly challenging/unforgiving especially in the long run".
It's not what we hardcore FMers would want, but it's smart business.

We'll keep on playing an "easy" game, finding workarounds. Guys who'll brag about a quintuple with Wigan in 2021-22 will be horrified to find out they won't be able to overachieve so much and will likely stop playing and not come back for 2021

2 ore fa, masno ha scritto:

Difficulty levels

On paper, why not. But how?

FM is a complex game. In RPG or action games you can increase the encounter rate, alter the enemies' level-scaling to make it harder or easier. In driving or sport games you can alter the AI's attributes or the modifiers.

But FM is basically a game of numbers based on reality. Playing at "easy" you shouldn't get opponents' CA cut by 20%, just like Joe Bloggs from Bumfluff Utd shouldn't reach Messiesque levels when you face him at Hard level.
Even by applying modifiers to stuff like Reputation to make transfers more difficult, it'll be fake difficulty. Like, a foreing low-level club won't turn down 20M for one of their players, and he won't turn Liverpool down because "difficulty level!!!".

Frankly, an anti-reload feature would be enough to nip in the bud most "incredible careers"...

[masno]

7 horas atrás, RBKalle disse:

 

On paper, why not. But how?

FM is a complex game. In RPG or action games you can increase the encounter rate, alter the enemies' level-scaling to make it harder or easier. In driving or sport games you can alter the AI's attributes or the modifiers.

But FM is basically a game of numbers based on reality. Playing at "easy" you shouldn't get opponents' CA cut by 20%, just like Joe Bloggs from Bumfluff Utd shouldn't reach Messiesque levels when you face him at Hard level.
Even by applying modifiers to stuff like Reputation to make transfers more difficult, it'll be fake difficulty. Like, a foreing low-level club won't turn down 20M for one of their players, and he won't turn Liverpool down because "difficulty level!!!".

Frankly, an anti-reload feature would be enough to nip in the bud most "incredible careers"...

Well, this is not for us to discuss, but for SI devs themselves. I gave a idea based on what I see and play, but behind the curtains this game can be way more complex than we think. But as I said, SI already said they are not interested in difficulty levels because they think FM should represent real life, and real life don't have different difficulties. My opinion is that they are necessary, one day SI will get in a two-path decision where they will have to decide if they are gonna increase the difficult of the game increasing the realism, and getting some players to be mad at it, or getting the game easier to please the casuals, getting the hardcores mad.

[alian62]

Should a difficulty level then be installed   easy,  mediam,  hard , very hard . 

[RBKalle]

5 ore fa, masno ha scritto:

one day SI will get in a two-path decision where they will have to decide if they are gonna increase the difficult of the game increasing the realism, and getting some players to be mad at it, or getting the game easier to please the casuals, getting the hardcores mad.

Are you sure?

The hardcores don't have any other option to get their "fix", and they have already shown they'll go to great lengths to create the difficulty level themselves (self-imposed restrictions, even a skin with complete attributes masking). And if anything fails, there's still the tactical side of the game to challenge and explore.

The casuals will kick FM to the curb if they won't win the CL final upon the third reload, or if there won't be any more "supertactics" or overpowered styles that can almost guarantee insta-success to most.

Here's a gem from a FB group... Even a few other members questioned its legitimacy, and it's a place where such scorelines are as common as a 1-0 was in late 80s Serie A...

[FlorianAlbert9]

The possibility are 2:

-difficulty level (normal and pro)

-keep the Touch at this level and make the normal FM harder.

 

When i read that the answer to that debate about difficulty Is "take an obscure club in an obscure country" or "play with only u21” i think that is not a proper solution:

Said that i always play with MTK in Hungary and try to have the most u21 (not all only 'cause i like to have a player who stay in the club for all his career) and that with FM17 i spent 30year before i can win CL. 

Said that, this have to be my choice, not the way to make game harder. 

Yes, it's a game and even in the pro-level should be the possibility ti win the CL with an obscure club. But with more more time

And to be a top club manager should be the harder thing, as IRL.

 

[Malicious Penguin]

18 hours ago, RBKalle said:

At some stage, after weeks/months of banging your head agains the wall while trying to figure out why your apparently reasonable setup in the TC just doesn't translate at all to the ME and your desired playing style simply isn't happening, you go "sod it!" and go with whichever combination is all the rage in the current version, even if it's far from your original plan.

Which is a shame and makes the game much more boring and uninteresting, because most "success stories" involve only a handful of formations and styles.

This is 100% accurate

[99]

Em 31/08/2019 em 09:30, RBKalle disse:

With the annoucement of the announcement of FM20, we're all speculating about new features, tweaks, improvements etc, with predictions and wishlists ranging from reasonable and long overdue to complete and unrealistic fantasies.

Still, I feel we're missing the point, by a big margin.

If you've ever taken a tour on one of the many FM groups on Facebook, you'll know what I mean... Thousands of FM players posting screenshots of outlandish scorelines, ridiculously one-sided top-matches ending with waterpolo scorelines, adventurous tactics you wouldn't dare on FIFA/PES, laundry list of expensive transfers or of suspiciously impressive newgens and wonderkids, years-long winning streaks...

In short: the average FM gamer is a lazy guy who's in there to lead whichever club he picks (usually his favourite one and/or a Top Club with a bottomless pit of money) to world domination as soon as he can til he gets bored and starts it again in a different country.
The sheer amount of high-scoring games and of incredible wins makes me think they're all using one of the "supertactics" (likely with bugged set-pieces) to achieve such success so quickly.

Basically FM is, to the majority of the customers, a rather straightforward Power Fantasy where the key is signing better players and clicking Continue to win matches and to see players develop.

So in that scenario, why should SI kill themselves to fine-tune AI transfers, squad building and tactical instructions and I/O results in the ME, while the biggest portion of the players are happy with the game exactly because of those features not being that refined and thus still "exploitable"?
It makes little sense focusing on what is, sadly, marginal stuff that a small, but dedicated, minority wants.

When people finds out Gegenpressing is the most effective style, most will simply use it. Few crazy and stubborn souls will instead try to get Hoofball to work anyway, but that'll likely lead to season upon seasons of midtable finishes in League One. Hardly stuff you brag about on social media. Or a compelling scenario to keep on playing for weeks or months.

So, long story short: FM is "easy" and "flawed" in some aspects because a more realistic, yet punishing, game would alienate a huge section of the customers. While we joke about "Football Therapist 2019", a more appropriate nickname should be "Football Messiah 2019" considering the Power Trip aspect of the game is its biggest selling point...
Changing it would be counterproductive and just poor business.

Like, in F1 games you can jump into a Williams and likely win races. If it was really realistic, you'd be lucky to finish 10th in a race of attrition... But who'd pay to play a chore of a game?

I ended up talking about that, here:

 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

9 hours ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

The possibility are 2:

-difficulty level (normal and pro)

-keep the Touch at this level and make the normal FM harder.

 

I disagree, there are a lot of people who struggle with the game already, so there needs to be a third option: Easy.

 

11 hours ago, RBKalle said:

Here's a gem from a FB group... Even a few other members questioned its legitimacy, and it's a place where such scorelines are as common as a 1-0 was in late 80s Serie A...

That doesn't really surprise me if it's a two legged competition though. Even the AI in 16-18 was overturning 4/5/6/-0/whatever first leg defeats with alarming regularity on my saves. But the lopsidedness of his results there, 6-1/8-2 suggests to me he's gone attacking/overload, fluid the usual nonsense that elects thirty odd shots without too much hassle. Had the AI attacked him in the second leg he may be facing another 6-1 defeat imo.

 

On 31/08/2019 at 09:30, RBKalle said:

Basically FM is, to the majority of the customers, a rather straightforward Power Fantasy where the key is signing better players and clicking Continue to win matches and to see players develop.

I don't see what's wrong with that though, that's why a lot of people initially picked up the game. It's more fun being Sir Alex Ferguson (in your career) than it is unsuccessfully getting demolished week in and week out. But this isn't really a new debate, it's been discussed for a long time that there will supposedly come a day when SI have to pick and choose, but so far they can sit on the fence since the game caters to near enough every group at the moment.

[enigmatic]

The main reason FM is easy to overachieve is that it's essentially impossible to build a tactics engine that simulates an enormous variety of AI and player tactics that doesn't have certain setups which are significantly more successful than others. And human players look for them and share notes, whilst the AI managers just sticks with playing the tactical frameworks programmed into them

Even in a comparatively simple game like Civilization, where the AI is optimised to beat the player rather than programmed to attempt to replicate how a particular manager and team is likely to respond to match situations, the "difficult modes" rely on giving it massive numerical advantages.

So FM would be easy to find a way to beat regardless of what the player base wanted.

(FM does have a few things which appear to be calibrated with player enjoyment in mind, like relative ease of job progression with the right reputation, dynamic values which mean that certain teams can be improved to ridiculous lengths and the effects of team cohesion being very, very powerful if you keep your side together. But it'd be impossible to build a match engine that wasn't easy to beat without either making it very simple, or completely changing the approach so instead of Jose Mourinho being programmed to play like Jose Mourinho, he just picked the tactical setup most likely to beat you based on simulated games)

 

[RBKalle]

2 ore fa, 99 ha scritto:

I ended up talking about that, here:

You made a very good point, and I indeed agree with you.

A brutally realistic FM would be as much fun to play as a RPG game where your Lv1 character will get killed by sewer rats for the first 10-15 hours of gameplay and even the easiest fetch quest would take you weeks of dedicated and careful playing time.
By the time you MAY be good enough to move on to the main quest, you'll likely be so frustrated and bored with the game you wouldn't pay it if you got paid to...

Sure, people enjoy challenging games like the Dark Souls series, Cuphead and Sekiro. Some even enjoy dull, dreary and ultimately unfulfilling games like Papers Please too... But all those are/were titles for a niche of aficionados.
Changing FM from the beloved Power Fantasy to a realistic, frustrating and definitely laborious affair where you'd be lucky to win a League Cup or to steal a CL/EL spot if managing outside the Top6 would alienate the majority of the current playing base. Nevermind playing in third-rate countries where making it to th EL Group Stage ONCE in a decade would still be a club and career highlight.

1 ora fa, isignedupfornorealreason ha scritto:

I don't see what's wrong with that though, that's why a lot of people initially picked up the game

I never said there's something wrong with that thought...

Nobody picks up ANY game hoping it'll be 90% slog, 5% fun and 5% success. Still, I often wonder what's the point of all the in-depth stuff (and of our endless discussions about how we can improve things) while the vast vast majority of the players could easily be as happy with CM3...

[sporadicsmiles]

The point you touch on is that FM is an easy game to play, but a fiendishly difficult one to master. Indeed it has a really steep learning curve without much to guide you. Now if we take "people want to win" as a truth, then most people will pick the easiest way to do that. Which is to use downloaded tactics, sign wonderkids, use the in game editor, etc. And if people get enjoyment from the game this way, fair play to them. I would argue this is how most people play every sports game. People who play Madden will find plays that the AI cannot handle and run them over and over to go 16-0 and to the superbowl every year. When I play F1 games I search for good setups rather than doing it all myself, which is essentially the same thing.

Does this mean FM has no need to innovate? From a money perspective, you are probably correct. Look at Fifa, which has a hugely loyal fan base who buy games that are essentially roster updates every year. However, FIFA also gets a lot of hate for this, and a lot of people do get quite annoyed at the lack of effort, innovation and bug fixing in the game. Which is just standard EA policy. Just go look at all the FIFA rant videos on YouTube. This is where, in my opinion, FM is different. They perhaps do not have to innovate. But they still do. Each year they make the game better. Either by adding new features, or by polishing some of the older ones. The points you touch on. Squad building, transfer, etc. They are the hardest things to get right, because you have to code the AI to behave like a human. Which is not possible. You pretty much have to code it so the AI makes semi intelligent decisions based on the information they have. It is not just ease of programming but also computation time that has to be considered. When I am looking to buy a player I will check his attributes carefully, his scout report, work out if he fits the exact role I want, check specific attributes carefully, etc. The AI cannot be so detailed, because you will increase the processing time, and not everyone has a high end machine that can handle that. While I know you do not mean this in a derogatory way to SI, I want to point out that they are incredible at interacting with their fans, fixing bugs, engaging with community ideas for future games, etc. By far the best of any sports title I know.

As to the point of whether a majority of people play as you say, I would challenge that assumption. The majority of those active on social media, streaming, etc. certainly seem to play that way. But there is a confirmation bias built in there. Only people who are proud of themselves and want to make themselves look good will post. I am not going to post my 0-0 borefest anywhere. Or my season where I finish 13th in the league and meet all my expectations and nothing more. I think it is truly difficult to know how most people play the game. These boards (particularly on the tactics forums) have a solid hard core of players who try to play football as it is in real life. Other sites are full of exploits and brags and people who game the game. I doubt either are a meaningful representation of reality. It is like doing a survey of 60 year olds about skateboarding and concluding it is not popular.

Interesting discussion you started!

 

[Welshace]

Came in to say what is said every year... (and already in this thread)

 

Difficulty levels of some sort... let people decide the level of challenge in a more overall manner than setting your managers experience...

 

I want the AI to be more ruthless and clever at more difficult levels, I want them to work out our tactics much sooner, I want them to be more dynamic within the match engine reacting to changes we make at half time... I want the slight chance of injury each match being adjusted slightly into a more realistic manner and vice versa on lower difficulty levels, I want making money easier at lower levels of difficulty..   

I also know, however, that this all requires a complete rewrite of the code, which is a mammoth task.

[FlorianAlbert9]

The issue in make AI smarter Is all in match engine. 

It seems to me that there Is almost zero correlation between the Managers' CA and their actual ability in the game as like all Managers' attributes count nothing but only the used tactic.

(That's Is also a point for the research where, if i correct, the teams' CA is not based at all on manager, but only on past year results. Very funny in a managerial game).

While i think tactic itself means nothing IRL (cause otherwise, all will use the same one) and what make difference between a top club manager and a poor one Is in the ability to use right tactic for the players he has (or to choose the right players for the tacticts he want), the ability to keep players at their best, the ability to face pressure etc..

In that the only one step possible Is to limit the tactics avaible. It's painfull step i know.

But SI could give us 20 set tactics*, but that with the right players, they all works. So in that way also the AI could works better.

*It could be 5 ready tactics and the other 15 hide in a system like the One we have now (but less flexible of course)

[forameuss]

People asking for difficulty levels may as well just accept the fact that it's never going to happen.  Both because there doesn't seem to be an appetite for such a thing from SI (haven't they specifically said as much?) and because it would be a nigh-on-impossible thing to actually get right.  Think about it, currently we have a match engine that, let's face it, creaks at times.  It's still, by an incredible distance, the best example of its type out there, but a system that mature and that complex is always going to be a balancing act.  Now imagine SI take that system and try and build in artificial throttlers.  You're taking a system designed to "think" in a way, and artificially boosting or hindering it.  That sounds like it would either be fraught with issues, or so incredibly static that it would be little fun in practice.

[Lucas]

Reminds me of this: 

and this: 

And all that was 8 years ago, so it'll be even more complex these days.

Difficulty levels will never happen not just because it's impractical in this scenario, but also because it goes against realism and being immersed into FM. 

Reality doesn't quite have a difficulty level you can pick, and it's all subjective anyway. 

FM strives to be a simulation, not a game, per se.

[bigmattb28]

On 31/08/2019 at 09:30, RBKalle said:

adventurous tactics you wouldn't dare on FIFA/PES,

You lost me as soon as you mentioned FIFA & PES on an FM forum.

[asdpoo]

2 hours ago, forameuss said:

People asking for difficulty levels may as well just accept the fact that it's never going to happen.  Both because there doesn't seem to be an appetite for such a thing from SI (haven't they specifically said as much?) and because it would be a nigh-on-impossible thing to actually get right.  Think about it, currently we have a match engine that, let's face it, creaks at times.  It's still, by an incredible distance, the best example of its type out there, but a system that mature and that complex is always going to be a balancing act.  Now imagine SI take that system and try and build in artificial throttlers.  You're taking a system designed to "think" in a way, and artificially boosting or hindering it.  That sounds like it would either be fraught with issues, or so incredibly static that it would be little fun in practice.

Difficulty levels are very easy - boost or reduce the opposition's player attributes by a number while the ME keeps working as it is. Game designers just don't like the idea, but sadly, as big business interests take over and selling to a wider audience becomes priority, we get to what OP wrote.

Or I just hate SEGA, I don't know.

Edited September 2, 2019 by asdpoo

[forameuss]

13 minutes ago, asdpoo said:

Difficulty levels are very easy - boost or reduce the opposition's player attributes by a number while the ME keeps working as it is. Game designers just don't like the idea, but sadly, as big business interests take over and selling to a wider audience becomes priority, we get to what OP wrote.

Or I just hate SEGA, I don't know.

...so, the incredibly static part I wrote then?  If you think the ME is purely about who has the biggest number to the degree that what you're suggesting would actually work, then can I recommend Top Trumps?

You can always rely on the wider gaming community to gate-keep and try to treat more people enjoying something you enjoy as something bad.

[Lynchyy]

1 hour ago, Lucas said:

Reminds me of this: 

and this: 

And all that was 8 years ago, so it'll be even more complex these days.

Difficulty levels will never happen not just because it's impractical in this scenario, but also because it goes against realism and being immersed into FM. 

Reality doesn't quite have a difficulty level you can pick, and it's all subjective anyway. 

FM strives to be a simulation, not a game, per se.

This is 'Hit Nail On Head' kind of stuff.

Hardcore players play FM. Softcore players play FM Touch. Isnt that it?

I play FM Touch as I don't have time for full FM and enjoy the Pick a tactic sign some players rinse and repeat.

[Lucas]

1 hour ago, Lynchyy said:

Hardcore players play FM. Softcore players play FM Touch. Isnt that it?

 

No. Please don't call me a softcore player  

FM Touch is somewhere in the middle slightly because it has more in the way of gamey features (cf: unlockables) and differentiation on certain features to enable faster gameplay, but it still strives to be a simulation otherwise it wouldn't use as much of full FM as it does. 

FM Touch just tweaks certain FM things or ignores them completely, so it's still very much a sim.

FM Mobile is designed as a game, as it's specifically designed to be something you can pick up and play.

[yolixeya]

1 hour ago, asdpoo said:

Difficulty levels are very easy - boost or reduce the opposition's player attributes by a number while the ME keeps working as it is.

That would be just as frustating as PES on legend difficulty where players with 80ish strength perform like they are 99 in duels. Most people don't want harder game per se but more realistic one and for that AI must be improved which is extremely difficult thing to do I guess. After all, what we reffer as AI isn't really artificial intelligence, doesn't really read the game and make conscious decisions like human manager so a lot of problems stem from there.

I think that squad building is one of the factors that make game too easy and it could be made more difficult. It should be harder to build the squad to win the promotion, to build the squad to stay clear of relegation etc. It's too easy to find a player who is way above your current level who is willing to join your club. It should be harder to find him or he should be more reluctant to sign for your club or there shoud be fewer players who fit that profile or maybe all of the above. You would not see players complaining that it's too easy if they could not build the squad so easy. FM19 was a step in right direction moving from exploitable tutoring to mentoring, maybe now SI should follow that up with changing the scouting system as I feel it is also exploitable. You may not know which players will be absolute beasts and best players in the game but you can easily find future stars. Maybe scouting should be still fairly easy and managable especially if you have good scouts, but it should be more vague so we have more hit and miss type of signings which will help with squad building difficulty.

[Carninho]

the way you stereotype FM gamers makes this whole thread garbage to me 

[FMExperiment]

Personally I think SI should fix the exploitables faster. It's been a whole year of high line pressing and set piece exploits, it's a bit lazy.

You can't make tactics harder because then stock tactics would have to be weaker by default. If studying your opposition made victories significantly easier then not studying would have to be significantly detrimental.

From what I see outside of exploits most things in FM just customise your style or add "micro modifiers" that give a tiny boost to your chance of winning (like team shouts, morale management, extra training). That's probably how it should be and is.

FM is as hard as you want it to be. The limitations and challenges you impose on yourself determine the difficulty. Success is not hard in FM unless you go out of your way to make it so (pick weak teams, attribute masking, no exploits).

To me FM is about developing youth and taking a small club to the top. That's how I enjoy it. Someone else might enjoy using the editor to find the best players or downloading the best tactics. It's ok. 

[RBKalle]

6 ore fa, bigmattb28 ha scritto:

You lost me as soon as you mentioned FIFA & PES on an FM forum.

Maybe because you didn't bother reading/understanding why I brought them up?

In arcade-simulation games you are actually taking control of the players, you can field a 4-3-3 where the two fullbacks are actually wingers and all the midfielders are AMC with zero defending skills. If you're good enough at the game, you'll win despite the formation and the selected players are horribly unbalanced.

In FM you can't tiki-taka your way to a 4-0 win with Agüero as CM (as you already have 5 more Forwards already in the starting lineup). Major tactical flaws or selection absurdities will be punished (and should be punished even more IMO).

2 ore fa, Carninho ha scritto:

the way you stereotype FM gamers makes this whole thread garbage to me 

Dude, start following some of the groups on Facebook... I'm not stereotyping, I'm merely reporting what people usually post in there.

Out of 10 new posts, 4 are requests for wonderkids/good signing for X club, 4 are screenshots of ridiculous results (of which, 90% are unrealistic big wins, often shocking giant-killings, 10% are 'I got FM'ed' matches where the user's team got like 60 shots, only 6 on target and 20-30 between long and blocked shots. and the rest are general discussion or specific bugs/issues/questions

[forameuss]

3 hours ago, Carninho said:

the way you stereotype FM gamers makes this whole thread garbage to me 

 

19 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Dude, start following some of the groups on Facebook... I'm not stereotyping, I'm merely reporting what people usually post in there.

The way you ask me to follow some of the groups on Facebook makes this whole thread garbage to me

[RBKalle]

Can't tell whether it's sarcasm or not, but seriously, those groups were an eye-opener to me.

Until then I only had a tiny frame of reference: the few friends or acquaintances dedicated enough to bother with such a complex game. And even they rarely made it past season 5/6 either with their (editorially enhanced) favourite Top Club or with one of the local sides.

Then FB showed me there's a whole world of "serial winners", whose Top Club Starting XI is likely the same, with all the usual Top Players, Utility Superstars, Cheap Diamonds in the Rough, Wonderkids etc. And whose tactical setup is one of the Instawins tactics. Or a rather straightforward homemade Gegenpress good enough to allow them to win by brute force.

[Lucas]

1 minute ago, RBKalle said:

those groups were an eye-opener to me.

Why? People have been using walkthrough stuff for years. 

A lot of people don't want to spend time learning how to play a game they just want to get to their end point and then move on to something else.

[Svenc]

On 31/08/2019 at 10:54, leviathan1904 said:

Nobody will pay money for getting frustrated in the long run. A "really realistic" football manager game would mean that 99,9 precent of all gamers have no success and stop playing it. 

Actually, if the game were to be "realistic", in particular in the short-term, lots of Players would find success -- simply by added seasonal luck (and having a damn good side). Only in the longer run would be the better Managers more successful (relative to their Clubs), and the lesser ones less so. Currently, not everybody is even a Manager though. Even though that's assumed he were by given Job opportunity.

As it is, the game pretends to simulate "Football Management"; yet lets all parties involved make Basic mistakes and contradictory instructions you would never actually see in Football from an actual manager, so... It's basically set up like a basic learning sim (from the AI end also)… The game's actual premise is as follows: That Players live the "Fantasy" of being an actual Manager. The game's actual "challenges" can be as follows: letting playerse figure out the use of a midfield Pivot in a Possession based tactic, how to protect a backline, how to deal with the Dressing room -- let alone how Transfer negotations may be to handle on a Basic Level is already a bit of a stretch though -- and guaranteed Frustration as is, because make no mistake -- loads have no idea whatsoever of either, and can be punished badly for it. Limiting all parties involved to actual Football stuff may have the added effect of leveling the playing field between AI and human Manager also though.

That said, to me purely from a design point of view, FM's target audience is too Broad, and it's gotten broader. Everybody's a footie fan these days. There are plenty enough AAA games I enjoy (Arkane Studios <3) , but in the niche space you tend to find more focused games that take an idea and run with it all the way. Speaking About "realism", SI actually simulate a perfect template to balance it all. Actual Managers have assistants proper for like anything. No Need to hold an area overly back if stuff can be optionally delegated to assistants, which is also AI, which means assistants improve alongside to AI. Whatever direction it is, casual, whatever, I tend to prefer games that actually take that by the balls and run with it. Else it's just Frustration and wasted potential -- lots of really really fun actually casual games.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Svenc

[RBKalle]

3 ore fa, Lucas ha scritto:

Why? People have been using walkthrough stuff for years. 

A lot of people don't want to spend time learning how to play a game they just want to get to their end point and then move on to something else.

A walkthrough wouldn't help you beat Final Fantasy or Skyrim with a Level40 character while the "suggested" level to make it as an average player is Level 65-70, and a mediocre player may need up to level 90 to succeed with relative ease.

Old point-and-click adventures were the only games where a walkthrough was actually a gamechanger (and gamekiller in a way). You got key info about WHERE to go, WHAT to do and HOW to do it. So yes, a Myst walkthrough actively killed the fun of the game giving you all the tools to complete it.

In FM terms, wonderkid lists and overpowered tactics are the equivalent of old Trainers Mods. In Action-RPG terms, you're not getting a list of locations where top weapons can be found inside chests, or directions about where to go to grind XP for some easy levelling up. You're more or less downloading savegame that allows you to start with a lot of money and high-level equipment. So your character will be much stronger than he was supposed to be and despite your lack of gaming skills you can still thrive and breeze through the game.

[forameuss]

4 hours ago, RBKalle said:

Can't tell whether it's sarcasm or not, but seriously, those groups were an eye-opener to me.

Until then I only had a tiny frame of reference: the few friends or acquaintances dedicated enough to bother with such a complex game. And even they rarely made it past season 5/6 either with their (editorially enhanced) favourite Top Club or with one of the local sides.

Then FB showed me there's a whole world of "serial winners", whose Top Club Starting XI is likely the same, with all the usual Top Players, Utility Superstars, Cheap Diamonds in the Rough, Wonderkids etc. And whose tactical setup is one of the Instawins tactics. Or a rather straightforward homemade Gegenpress good enough to allow them to win by brute force.

Well anything Facebook-based is usually going to be utterly awful.  This place isn't great at times, but I'd expect it probably represents the more level-headed examples of the community, as they've actually sought out the proper community.  Those that are...less level-headed...will likely move away from here because they can say whatever they like without fear of reprisal.  Whether that's something infraction worthy to boost their ego, or just a mental conspiracy theory that they want to go unchallenged.  That's what I expect you'll find on these groups.

For more examples, see the comments on any Facebook post, on, say, football news, or any kind of news.  Facebook comments will be absolute murder, whereas on an official community will probably be a bit better.

So that's why, if someone in one of these groups told me it was raining, while I was getting wet, I'd still have to check myself to make sure.

[Carninho]

Facebook is for showing off, sulking and venting anger. 

 

*cant believe I've come back to this thread

[oblongata21]

4 hours ago, Carninho said:

Facebook is for showing off, sulking and venting anger. 

 

 

Youre right, I joined a group there and left almost immediately.

Half is a bunch of people playing with overpowered teams, boasting of how they got promoted 5 times in a row then went on to win the champions league the next season. The other half is just whining about how much they hate the game

[duesouth]

There's no question this is a complex issue for SI.  There are different ways to play the game - you can download a tactic that wins - or you can battle away yourself trying to develop one, or anywhere in between - and however you play it, you can have a lot of fun.  Now, if SI changed the match engine to adapt to these super tactics so they work for a short time and then you'll struggle, people will stop playing the game and won't buy the next installment.  If profits go down, SI will have to cut costs, which would likely mean less people hours spent developing the game, so they are in a tough place having to appeal to a wide variety of ways to play the game.

I was a big CM guy when I was younger and 2/3 years ago re-installed CM 03/04, and enjoyed many hours of playing.  I decided this year to make the jump to FM - which has and hasn't been easy.  As someone said above, the game is easy to play in that you can create a tactic, training schedule etc. and not feel like you don't know what to click - but, as I discovered, to develop a good tactic is not easy.  Thinking about difficulty level, I'm not sure the game needs it.  If I want hard, I'll take over at a cash strapped team with no experience/badges and perhaps even make it a youth only challenge.  I would say as a new FM player, a little more help would have been welcome.  So, perhaps an option for "I'm a new player" to have an Assistant Manager flag up conflicting options in your tactic - or perhaps some recommended clubs for new players - a decent squad and patient board (I went for amateur status Dalum in Denmark for my first save as that was my last save in CM03/04 - but I think a "warning, this is really difficult for beginners" message would have been helpful as I bit off far more than I could chew).  There are the guides when you start, and the tactical templates, but I think they could have gone a little further.  Certainly my Assistant Manager was leading me down the wrong path and my defending was too passive, which also meant I wasn't scoring much either on defensive and defending very deep.  Ignoring my Assistant didn't cross my mind in my first season of this brand new game - now I do most of the time - so that element I think could serve as somewhat of a difficulty level, that the attributes of your Assistant would be ignored and you'd get detailed and helpful suggestions.  The tactical templates are a start because they essentially ask you "what style of football do you want to play?", but I think that could be better and I would expect them to be in FM20 with another year of development time.

I think also pointers of why you lose might help - have your Assistant show you the oppo's 4-2-3-1 beat you because you had a lower defensive line and a higher line of engagement, so there was too much space for them to play in - and then have the game point to where you can analyse that for yourself.  There's so much to that side of FM, I still find it a bit overwhelming.

There's no question this game has been brilliant value for money for me.  I've not picked top clubs to manage and am currently doing the San Marino Challenge, so probably haven't helped myself (again, so many different ways to play the game - the community creating league/kit etc. packs adds to that even more).  There have been frustrations - I got relegated with San Marino Calcio from Serie C to D which stung - but got promoted straight back up and have just got promoted to Serie B via the playoffs - and I doubt that feeling of achievement could be replicated by (m)any games out there.  I'm also pretty sure you can play many games and still be learning after 500+ hours, which I very much am.  So, hats off to SI, as given the complexity of the game and issues like this, I think they do a nice job, and that's reflected in the fact they are the market in football management sims, let alone the market leader.

[Kieranovks1]

Easy fix add a iron man mode, I bet 90% of these 3 season win streaks would stop, casuals can just play and reload till they win. Fm is a simulation more than a game in my eyes being part of a experience that plays out whether I decide to participate or not. Such as dimming 30  years into the future and seeing what's changed. Imo Fm is best with no reloads where every wrong tactical choice, lucky a.I goal and last minute gut wrenches are felt hard would be cool to have an option for no reloads as a way to help people play like this who want to but get tempted by the reload and also as a badge for all the face bookers you tubers who claim these scorelines and streaks

 

 

 

[jcp1417]

I'll never understand the "make me not able to cheat" mentality. Want to win legitimately? don't cheat. don't exploit. It's really that simple

[masno]

1 hora atrás, jcp1417 disse:

I'll never understand the "make me not able to cheat" mentality. Want to win legitimately? don't cheat. don't exploit. It's really that simple

The problem with it is we don't know if the game is just to easy right now with guys that conquer all in 4-6 seasons with a team of a obscure league at the point that this is frequent, or that maybe half of the guys that do this are actually cheating.
Lets suppose a hardcore/iron man mode is introduced in FM, and by the end of the year the data states that just 10% of the player base used this mode, and just 2% won actual continental competitions back to back,while the others had normal careers, conquering some titles, getting sacked, but playing fair. After all this data being brought up, the same people continue to claim the game is to easy,but doesn't show if their saves are or not IM/HC mode. What we could suppose from it is that the game is indeed hard from most of the player base, and that things should be kept in this way. But instead, we see that half of the player base actually are playing HC/IM mode, and most of them are actually owning the AI, then it's time to rethink on the difficult of the game.

[Svenc]

18 hours ago, duesouth said:

 I would say as a new FM player, a little more help would have been welcome.  So, perhaps an option for "I'm a new player" to have an Assistant Manager flag up conflicting options in your tactic - or perhaps some recommended clubs for new players - a decent squad and patient board (I went for amateur status Dalum in Denmark for my first save as that was my last save in CM03/04 - but I think a "warning, this is really difficult for beginners" message would have been helpful as I bit off far more than I could chew).  There are the guides when you start, and the tactical templates, but I think they could have gone a little further.  Certainly my Assistant Manager was leading me down the wrong path and my defending was too passive, which also meant I wasn't scoring much either on defensive and defending very deep. 

Let's take this from a different perspective. I still find it interesting that everybody would Point out how the game would allow this many Pretty bad "tactics", yet nobody Questions that. After all, in Football Teams don't suffer due to "horrible tactics".  They are managed by schooled personell.

- Why does the game allow conflicting Options? Some of which may happen by accident too. After all, within the fiction of the game world, it's actual Managers competing against one another (the AI btw suffers from this as well to some extent). Here's the answer: Because the game hasn't translated over to Football concepts fully, everybody is allowed to home cook their own brew of the mentaly-player role/Duty-Team/Player instruction recipe -- and occasionally may get a Little lost in Translation (or do horrible stuff you'd never actually see on a Football pitch, which is what the game after all tries to simulate).

- The assistant advice (should defend deeper) likewise can only improve with actual context. Which is the aforementioned templates that "could have gone a step further". They're actual Football concepts not fully embraced yet. An assistant for a Deep block defending side would a) give totally different advice than one in a high line Pressing side. b) It would also look at completely different data, as "We are  conceding a lot of shots" obviously in itself may not be hugely much of a concern when doing a "Dyche" -- what those shots look like, however, may. 

Purely tactically, the resulting gampelay was less one of figuring out how to get fairly "Basic Things going" which  Managers should have no Problem with (AI due to its dynamicism can go wrong as well imo). And more About Picking a prefered style to a somewhat suited Squad, as well as optionally making in-game Risk/reward decisions further shifting the odds a few (perhaps optionally assistant managed as well): Should we go for the 2-0 or Keep what we have? Assistants are AI, so win-win for all. Additionally, SI wouldn't Need to worry About the hundreds of combinations in mentality role Duty et all -- but could Focus on, well, actual Football, both when realistically balancing their ME (counter based Football vs Possession based Football etc), as well as not get distracted by the inevitable Feedback of "TOO MANY LONG SHOTS etcetc" when every single Player 90 minutes is pushed against the Opposition box 90 minutes 38 match days all Season and inevitably forced to make hurried decisions due to the lack of Depth and inevitable time had before getting engaged involved.

Garbage out, garbage out.

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Svenc