The Jack Grealish (and occasionally England) Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570

[The_jagster]

There's nothing wrong with two yellows in five games being a ban, they are meant to be for persistent fouling or cynical/reckless play so getting a suspension for two of them is a fair punishment. 

I still think that for an attacking player like Foden it shouldn't come into your thinking, you should be able to avoid a yellow whereas a defensive player might have to take a useful foul at some point.

If the argument is that anyone coming in can still be effective and it's a squad game, play your best side on the day and make a replacement if you need to next game. It's not as though the gulf in opponent strength is that significant.

[EnterUsernameHere]

8 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

There's nothing wrong with two yellows in five games being a ban, they are meant to be for persistent fouling or cynical/reckless play so getting a suspension for two of them is a fair punishment. 

I still think that for an attacking player like Foden it shouldn't come into your thinking, you should be able to avoid a yellow whereas a defensive player might have to take a useful foul at some point.

If the argument is that anyone coming in can still be effective and it's a squad game, play your best side on the day and make a replacement if you need to next game. It's not as though the gulf in opponent strength is that significant.

They extended the knockout phases but didn't change when cards are wiped...

I get your point but 2 cynical challenges over 5 games seems harsh to me.

Edited July 1, 2021 by EnterUsernameHere

[Bigwig]

2 hours ago, The_jagster said:

If the argument is that anyone coming in can still be effective and it's a squad game, play your best side on the day and make a replacement if you need to next game. It's not as though the gulf in opponent strength is that significant.

Yes this seems a bit odd. If you can afford to drop someone for Ukraine then presumably you can manage without them against Czech or Denmark.  The slight exception is possibly trying to avoid having both Rice and Phillips booked as Henderson can only cover one of those spots. 

[themadsheep2001]

8 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

Yes this seems a bit odd. If you can afford to drop someone for Ukraine then presumably you can manage without them against Czech or Denmark.  The slight exception is possibly trying to avoid having both Rice and Phillips booked as Henderson can only cover one of those spots. 

The entire point was based around the fact we have both DMs on yellow cards. We've made at least one change ahead of every game so this isn't out the ordinary either

 

[Bigwig]

7 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The entire point was based around the fact we have both DMs on yellow cards. We've made at least one change ahead of every game so this isn't out the ordinary either

 

Yeah I agree with that, but people are also taking about possibly dropping Maguire for Mings. If you afford to lose Maguire for a quarter-final against Ukraine you can presumably afford to lose him in a semi-final against Czech or Denmark. 

[Pukey]

Henderson coming in makes complete sense, there's basically no reason not to. If Rice and Phillips both get booked then that would drastically affect planning for the semi final should we get there, but play Henderson with one of them you're not weakening the squad, and worst case scenario you just play Henderson again in the semi (assuming we get there) 

And just an aside, and I know I've made the point a million times, but 3 years ago half our fan base were wanting Phillips sold and now people are discussing protecting him as he's too important to England going forward, this is so wild to me

[themadsheep2001]

6 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

Yeah I agree with that, but people are also taking about possibly dropping Maguire for Mings. If you afford to lose Maguire for a quarter-final against Ukraine you can presumably afford to lose him in a semi-final against Czech or Denmark. 

Just because we can afford to, doesn't mean we necessarily should though. I doubt it will happen, but given we make a couple of changes, why not two on cards? Mount is likely to be recalled anyway, and I can see the system shifting again

[pearcey_90]

8 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

Denmark beat us less than 12 months ago. Czech Republic beat us less than two years ago. Don't know about anyone else but I'm not taking anything for granted.

Denmark in the SF would be my only concern because of how blunt and poor we were in that game we lost to them. 

Playing someone crap like AMN at LWB in a 5 didn’t help, neither did having Mount RW and Maguire playing drunk. So that’s 3 big changes that won’t happen again, and even in Denmark win, it was a penalty. But it was just about how little we created.

[themadsheep2001]

Feel like the next two teams offer a different threat, hard to break down but good and clever on the counter. Not something we're always good as dealing with. Need to be on it, especially when you consider the teams that have already fallen by the wayside

[Rob1981]

Jesus Christ. Some people are absolutely determined to see the worst in everything. We have literally waited 25 years for a result like we had on Tuesday, can’t people just enjoy it?

”Can’t beat Germany because Southgate is too negative!” until we do beat them and the tactics work brilliantly, but then it doesn’t count properly because Germany weren’t very good and Southgate was lucky and Phillips could have been sent off and Muller should have equalised.

Now we shouldn’t be rotating any players for Ukraine because it makes us look complacent. But also we should be able to win comfortably with a changed team and if we don’t we don’t deserve a place in the final anyway.

Bit of positivity please. When it finally comes home you will look back on these few days as a magical time in your life. You won’t even remember whether or not Declan Rice was rested when we thumped Ukraine.

[Smallen]

Our bench vs Germany was incredible. Whatever side we put out it’s coming home.

[Rob1981]

I know I’ve gone about this but Southgate’s greatest achievement over 4-5 years has been changing the culture around England meet-ups and creating the club mentality and building a rounded squad of players.

We were always going to use 20+ players and swap people in and out. We planned for this all along, look back at qualifying and the Nations League and the friendlies and how different players were rotated and given experience in different systems and situations.

[skybluedave]

Looking back at the game. No denying it was a terribly dull, limited chances, cagey game between 2 well match sides. Not complaining obviously. But it did remind me of one of those dull top 6 encounters you'd see in the EPL. 

[craigcwwe]

9 hours ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

On a related note, the yellow card rules are too harsh in my view. Seems nonsense you can get 2 yellows in 5 games and miss the semi final.

Agreed. Bit harsh, should be max three yellows from five games for a ban. 

[Barry Cartman]

14 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Looking back at the game. No denying it was a terribly dull, limited chances, cagey game between 2 well match sides. Not complaining obviously. But it did remind me of one of those dull top 6 encounters you'd see in the EPL. 

I thought it was actually better watching the highlights back, Pickford makes 2 great saves, Neuer saves from Sterling, Kane wastes a simple chance right on half time. I think its a fine line between nervy and dull 

[Barry Cartman]

Foden's ridiculous Yellow he got in the 1st game seems to have cost him a lot of game time in this tournament 

[The_jagster]

The main praise I'll give Southgate is that he picks the team that he thinks will work in a given match. I don't necessarily agree with all of his decisions but he's dropped Foden who the media have really hyped up this season and brought Shaw in after leaving him out for the first game.

You often get managers rigid to a fault or changing stuff just in the hope that it works.

[The_jagster]

18 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Foden's ridiculous Yellow he got in the 1st game seems to have cost him a lot of game time in this tournament 

Fortunate really as it made Southgate select a more effective option against Germany.

[arenaross]

oh christ, what have you done?

[Barry Cartman]

1 minute ago, arenaross said:

oh christ, what have you done?

What, he's right, Foden came out and Saka got his chance and deserved to start against Germany 

[Rob1981]

14 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

The main praise I'll give Southgate is that he picks the team that he thinks will work in a given match. I don't necessarily agree with all of his decisions but he's dropped Foden who the media have really hyped up this season and brought Shaw in after leaving him out for the first game.

People moan that he isn’t a good tactician but I think he is the first manager since Glenn Hoddle to change systems mid-tournament depending on our opponents’ strengths and weaknesses. Not just chucking the same formation out every game and only changing the odd player if there is an injury or a suspension.

 

[Barry Cartman]

Plus playing Trippier left back 1st game which everyone hated, then explaining afterwards he wanted more experience to help Mings out in his 1st major game, then proceeds to play Shaw for the rest of the tournament and not just keep Tripper there because we won and kept a clean sheet 

[craigcwwe]

37 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

The main praise I'll give Southgate is that he picks the team that he thinks will work in a given match. I don't necessarily agree with all of his decisions but he's dropped Foden who the media have really hyped up this season and brought Shaw in after leaving him out for the first game.

You often get managers rigid to a fault or changing stuff just in the hope that it works.

Yeah, he doesn't get dragged into the media hype around players and makes his own decisions, not being swayed by media and fan demands and hype. It's refreshing. You might not agree with a decision here or there but you can't argue with the results, not just this tournament either, his entire reign so far. 

[ham_aka_stam]

He just seems to have confidence in all the players to do a job if required, decisions are made based on who's best suited to the game at hand.  No shoe-horning players in.  I like it.

[Rob1981]

Time to get that statue up on Wembley Way, move Bobby Moore round to the side entrance or something.

[skybluedave]

If we do win these Euros I'd defo like a tribute to Thomas Muller. Not a statue but maybe name a street after him.

[BigV]

2 hours ago, Rob1981 said:

Jesus Christ. Some people are absolutely determined to see the worst in everything. We have literally waited 25 years for a result like we had on Tuesday, can’t people just enjoy it?

”Can’t beat Germany because Southgate is too negative!” until we do beat them and the tactics work brilliantly, but then it doesn’t count properly because Germany weren’t very good and Southgate was lucky and Phillips could have been sent off and Muller should have equalised.

Now we shouldn’t be rotating any players for Ukraine because it makes us look complacent. But also we should be able to win comfortably with a changed team and if we don’t we don’t deserve a place in the final anyway.

Bit of positivity please. When it finally comes home you will look back on these few days as a magical time in your life. You won’t even remember whether or not Declan Rice was rested when we thumped Ukraine.

When you've been that bad for many years/not lived up to the name and stature, people are always going to be picky. Excuses are brought in and it just goes like every other football game. 

I'd argue its better to be a pessimist cause you're covered both ways win or lose. We all know what happens to optimists when things dont go their way *cue german kid crying meme* 

[Pukey]

35 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

People moan that he isn’t a good tactician but I think he is the first manager since Glenn Hoddle to change systems mid-tournament depending on our opponents’ strengths and weaknesses. Not just chucking the same formation out every game and only changing the odd player if there is an injury or a suspension.

 

As rubbish as some of our performances in the nations league were, I think it's paid dividends now in a more important time. He's seen Rice and Phillips as a key partnership to give us defensive strength, and playing them together back then has given them more game time and therefore a stronger understanding. It feels like there's very good reasons for everything he's doing. 

I get that it's not been thrill a minute, but I don't see how people can argue he got anything wrong against Germany. Seen people on twitter saying "we only looked good when Grealish came on!!!!" without realising that bringing him on at that time was a specific part of the plan to beat them. 

People as well thought he only matched them up because of the Portugal game, but he's mentioned we knew we'd be likely facing Germany for 18 months. They've planned for that game, and many others, for ages. There's a good article in the Athletic about the analysis department that covers how much they've done looking at every team. Not that other teams are just winging it of course, but the 3-4-3 wasn't a spur of the moment decision.

[Barry Cartman]

If you read any Twitter/Facebook thread, Sterling has done nothing except score 3 tap ins 

[Rob1981]

10 minutes ago, Pukey said:

Seen people on twitter saying "we only looked good when Grealish came on!!!!" without realising that bringing him on at that time was a specific part of the plan to beat them.

100%. Keep it tight for an hour and then use the pace off the bench when mistakes are creeping in. People saying it was dull but it was a brilliant tactical battle. Captivating in its own way, same as Italy v Austria. Depends what you want from your football.

But like you say, too many idiots on the socials see Grealish coming into the game and having a hand in the goals and think we could have started him and been 3-0 up at half time.

 

[Baptista_8]

You don't bring Grealish on for his pace.

[Astafjevs]

12 minutes ago, Pukey said:

As rubbish as some of our performances in the nations league were, I think it's paid dividends now in a more important time. He's seen Rice and Phillips as a key partnership to give us defensive strength, and playing them together back then has given them more game time and therefore a stronger understanding. It feels like there's very good reasons for everything he's doing. 

I get that it's not been thrill a minute, but I don't see how people can argue he got anything wrong against Germany. Seen people on twitter saying "we only looked good when Grealish came on!!!!" without realising that bringing him on at that time was a specific part of the plan to beat them. 

People as well thought he only matched them up because of the Portugal game, but he's mentioned we knew we'd be likely facing Germany for 18 months. They've planned for that game, and many others, for ages. There's a good article in the Athletic about the analysis department that covers how much they've done looking at every team. Not that other teams are just winging it of course, but the 3-4-3 wasn't a spur of the moment decision.

Sorry but how can he know that it was likely they'd be facing Germany? They were in a tough group and had to finish 2nd to play England. And they haven't been particularly good, relative to other big nations, for a while so it was no guarantee they'd get out their group at all. 

Southgate deserves credit but I kind of feel it's now going a bit over the top. Planning for Germany 18 months in advance because he senses they're going to play them at the Euros - Germany weren't even playing a back three regularly 18 months ago. Bringing on Grealish at that moment was a 'part of the plan', and not simply because England weren't creating a great many clear chances and probably needed something different.

[Pukey]

1 minute ago, Astafjevs said:

Sorry but how can he know that it was likely they'd be facing Germany? They were in a tough group and had to finish 2nd to play England. And they haven't been particularly good, relative to other big nations, for a while so it was no guarantee they'd get out their group at all. 

Southgate deserves credit but I kind of feel it's now going a bit over the top. Planning for Germany 18 months in advance because he senses they're going to play them at the Euros - Germany weren't even playing a back three regularly 18 months ago. Bringing on Grealish at that moment was a 'part of the plan', and not simply because England weren't creating a great many clear chances and probably needed something different.

They obviously knew they were facing one from that group. They didn't just plan for Germany obviously.

[Rob1981]

4 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

You don't bring Grealish on for his pace.

His ability to take the ball past people then, **** me must you argue with everything.

[m_fenton]

19 minutes ago, Pukey said:

They obviously knew they were facing one from that group. They didn't just plan for Germany obviously.

You'd think that was obvious wouldn't you 

[Rob1981]

12 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

Southgate deserves credit but I kind of feel it's now going a bit over the top. Bringing on Grealish at that moment was a 'part of the plan', and not simply because England weren't creating a great many clear chances and probably needed something different.

We had a very clear plan to approach it cautiously, try and control the pace of the game, cede possession at times because we had switched to a system with an extra defender, then turn the screw in the last half hour. 

Grealish coming on to do what he did was only possible because the first hour of the game had gone exactly to the script.

I posted before the game that I didn’t want us scoring in the first half hour. So many big games in tournament we have played it “the English way”, chased after an early goal, then frozen and put everyone behind the ball, then tried to survive the onslaught and conceded. If you look at the big games that we’ve lost in the last 20-odd years, the vast majority of them we have actually been ahead at some stage and then not been able to manage the game out.

[Pukey]

2 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

You'd think that was obvious wouldn't you 

I think the way I worded it made it sound like they planned specifically for Germany, but yeah I would have thought people would have worked out they didn't just plan for Germany. Hell, if we finished second or third we'd have faced completely different teams so they obviously will have looked at absolutely everyone.

[The_jagster]

I disagree that we were more attacking when Grealish came on, we just happened to score first, both teams were incredibly negative all game. 

Sterling takes it past the German central midfield on his own, it was the same as France in that it was reliant on forwards doing something outstanding.

Now you could argue that was the best possible tactic but **** me it was dull, Werner, Muller, and the two Kane chances are all from very quick counters having won the ball back high up the pitch rather than good attacking moves.

Edited July 1, 2021 by The_jagster

[martinji]

Personally I'd like to see us pick whatever Gareth things is the strongest team for Saturday, which may involve changes anyway.  This may be contentious but I think the fact we'll be travelling for the first time and won't have the support in the stadium that we've had so far, makes this a slightly tougher game for me than for either possible semi at Wembley, even though I agree Denmark have looked far better than Ukraine so far.  However I totally get the arguments for rotating defensive players on yellow, giving people more minutes, bringing Mount back in etc, and here's the key thing - I trust that whatever Southgate chooses to do, will turn out to be right.  And it feels good being able to say that about our manager

 

[mark1985]

[The Golden boy]

1 hour ago, skybluedave said:

If we do win these Euros I'd defo like a tribute to Thomas Muller. Not a statue but maybe name a street after him.

Maybe name a corner after him.

[Anthrax Dave]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves!

[skybluedave]

 

[ham_aka_stam]

2 hours ago, skybluedave said:

If we do win these Euros I'd defo like a tribute to Thomas Muller. Not a statue but maybe name a street after him.

Muller, Close!

[skybluedave]

Muller Corner!

 

Edit: Missed Golden Boys post there. Wasn't stealing his joke

Edited July 1, 2021 by skybluedave

[Smallen]

If Rice scores the winner in the final you could put him and Muller together.

[pearcey_90]

3 hours ago, Barry Cartman said:

Foden's ridiculous Yellow he got in the 1st game seems to have cost him a lot of game time in this tournament 

Wonder what the narrative would’ve been around him had his shot gone in and not hit the post against Croatia. 

[samuelawachie]

23 minutes ago, ham_aka_stam said:

Muller, Close!

Muller Klose. 
Fixed that for you.

[ham_aka_stam]

You haven't fixed anything. But thanks

[oche balboa]

3 hours ago, skybluedave said:

If we do win these Euros I'd defo like a tribute to Thomas Muller. Not a statue but maybe name a street after him.

Maybe a corner somewhere?

 

Edit- FFS

Edited July 1, 2021 by oche balboa