The Jack Grealish (and occasionally England) Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570

[Barry Cartman]

Sterling literally makes the 1st goal and finishes it, but somehow its all because Grealish came on a made a little pass to Shaw  

 

 

[Baptista_8]

You shouldn't underestimate the weighting of the pass to allow Shaw to put in first time without breaking stride though. We see it all the time with him and Targett, he weights the pass perfectly for the overlapping fullback to run onto it.

And I'm not playing down Sterling's role in the goal at all, he did superbly.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Baptista_8

[Rob1981]

I'd forgotten about Maguire's yellow.  Wonder if we will see Mings coming back in for Ukraine, make sure Maguire's yellow is wiped off before a potential semi.

Not sure if I'm happy about Mings in the back three though.  He did really well in the back four but the others have all played the other system loads for England going back to WC2018.

[Astafjevs]

 

Definitely shouldn't underestimate playing a simple 5 yard ball into space.

[Baptista_8]

Gotta keep playing Maguire. He makes a huge difference and needs the match fitness.

[Baptista_8]

Just now, Astafjevs said:

 

Definitely shouldn't underestimate playing a simple 5 yard ball into space.

No you shouldn't because no doubt many players would have messed that move up.

[Astafjevs]

It doesn't matter if Maguire gets banned for the SF. It's Denmark or Czech Republic ffs  If England can't beat those without Maguire in the XI, or indeed without any of the players who are on a yellow card, then you might as well stop playing and give future tournament places to someone else.

[Barry Cartman]

2 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

You shouldn't underestimate the weighting of the pass to allow Shaw to put in first time without breaking stride though. We see it all the time with him and Targett, he weights the pass perfectly for the overlapping fullback to run onto it.

And I'm not playing down Sterling's role in the goal at all, he did superbly.

I'm glad Grealish came on and he did well when he did, but the idea he changed the game or was our best attacker is nonsense. We won the game because by far our best player in the tournament, was immense (other than that lapse when tackled) in that last 15 minutes, Germany couldn't handle him

Cannot believe people even now don't give Sterling the respect he deserves for England  

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Barry Cartman said:

I'm glad Grealish came on and he did well when he did, but the idea he changed the game or was our best attacker is nonsense. We won the game because by far our best player in the tournament, was immense (other than that lapse when tackled) in that last 15 minutes, Germany couldn't handle him

Cannot believe people even now don't give Sterling the respect he deserves for England  

This. Sterling was our best attacker, followed by Shaw. It was a lovely cameo by Grealish, but let's not pretend he was the single handed saviour

[XuluBak]

2 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Sterling literally makes the 1st goal and finishes it, but somehow its all because Grealish came on a made a little pass to Shaw  

 

 

It wasn't about the little pass Grealish made, it was about his presence, threat, and seeming mentality shift from England. Sterling starts that goal and finishes it, but part of the reason Shaw had so much space to put the ball in was Germany overreacting to Grealish. 

As I said during the match, some people were having a go at Sterling for dribbling the ball away, but wtf else was he supposed to do? He had no support. Saka was largely irrelevant, especially in the second half, that some people were upset he was coming off instead of Sterling was comical. 

 

[The_jagster]

It's because Sterling also makes a lot of errors, and if the errors come before the goal then obviously people get frustrated. Now obviously they are different players but compare that to Modric who is normally excellent all game.

It's not really the pass to Shaw that Grealish did well but drawing two defenders towards him which gives Shaw the space. But it is Sterling that made the goal by taking out the midfield in the first place.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, The_jagster said:

It's because Sterling also makes a lot of errors, and if the errors come before the goal then obviously people get frustrated. Now obviously they are different players but compare that to Modric who is normally excellent all game.

It's not really the pass to Shaw that Grealish did well but drawing two defenders towards him which gives Shaw the space. But it is Sterling that made the goal by taking out the midfield in the first place.

Half his errors come from losing the ball because there's not enough support for him. So I get frustrated but also I sympathise with him a lot

[Baptista_8]

Sterling made an error which could have been costly, but our shape at the time didn't help him. Apart from that, there was no doubt he played well. No-one's doubting that are they?

[Pukey]

I think people, for whatever reason, just focus on the bad things Sterling does, rather than everything else. He's an attacking player, of course he's going to lose the ball, of course some dribbles aren't going to come off. It can be frustrating, but he is a huge, huge part of this team. 

[Baptista_8]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Half his errors come from losing the ball because there's not enough support for him. So I get frustrated but also I sympathise with him a lot

He does ignore simple passing options sometimes though.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Pukey said:

I think people, for whatever reason, just focus on the bad things Sterling does, rather than everything else. He's an attacking player, of course he's going to lose the ball, of course some dribbles aren't going to come off. It can be frustrating, but he is a huge, huge part of this team. 

Definitely. I don't think you can understate his importance

[Barry Cartman]

4 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

Sterling starts that goal and finishes it, but part of the reason Shaw had so much space to put the ball in was Germany overreacting to Grealish. 

 

This part is nonsense isn't it though

No German player is even arsed about Grealish, they're all chasing Sterling and reacting to him, Sterling even plays a dummy over the ball to reach Grealish, who just taps a simple pass to Shaw

Its all this overreaction to Grealish like your post there which goes over the top about him

[The_jagster]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Half his errors come from losing the ball because there's not enough support for him. So I get frustrated but also I sympathise with him a lot

I think it's a bit of both. He made one great dribble to the edge of the area, and there were two England players running in support to the edge of the box. He could and should have easily passed it then but kicked it against the defender goalside and list it instead, it's stuff like that where you can't really blame the team shape.

[Barry Cartman]

 

12 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

It's not really the pass to Shaw that Grealish did well but drawing two defenders towards him which gives Shaw the space

Again he doesn't though, i'm not sure what people are watching in that goal, the whole German defence is out of shape because half of them have gone off chasing Sterling, Grealish doesn't do anything other than receive a pass and play a simple ball, no defender has done anything because of him other than stand their ground in the 1 second or so he had the ball 

[The_jagster]

1 minute ago, Barry Cartman said:

 

Again he doesn't though, i'm not sure what people are watching in that goal, the whole German defence is out of shape because half of them have gone off chasing Sterling, Grealish doesn't do anything other than receive a pass and play a simple ball, no defender has done anything because of him other than stand their ground in the 1 second or so he had the ball 

Watch both of the right sided German defenders, Rudiger and I'm assuming Ginter, both get drawn into Grealish leaving Shaw the space because the RCB goes to the ball.

[Bigwig]

I don’t think the defenders even know Grealish is there until he receives the ball.

Two get drawn to him once he receives it, but that pretty much happens to any player who gets the ball in that position. He was obviously involved in the goal and deserves credit but it’s not like he was the key piece of the move. 

[Barry Cartman]

3 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Watch both of the right sided German defenders, Rudiger and I'm assuming Ginter, both get drawn into Grealish leaving Shaw the space because the RCB goes to the ball.

Shaw has all that space because everyone is reacting to Sterling, Grealish hardly has the ball for a second 

[XuluBak]

2 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

 

Again he doesn't though, i'm not sure what people are watching in that goal, the whole German defence is out of shape because half of them have gone off chasing Sterling, Grealish doesn't do anything other than receive a pass and play a simple ball, no defender has done anything because of him other than stand their ground in the 1 second or so he had the ball 

Yes, he does!  Kimmich should be wide, he's not because he pinches in to help with Grealish. Rudiger is there. Goretzka was kinda lazily taking away the inside. Even Ginter, who briefly, kinda sort picks up Sterling on his run is paying more attention to the ball than he is to Sterling, then when the ball goes wide to Shaw, Kimmich is too late, and Ginter completely loses Sterling trying to blockout the cross. 

Three players make that goal. Sterling starts and finishes, Grealish, and Shaw. If any one of those three players aren't involved, there's no goal. Period. Saka wasn't getting in those positions and if he were, Germany isn't overreacting that badly....

 

[XuluBak]

5 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Watch both of the right sided German defenders, Rudiger and I'm assuming Ginter, both get drawn into Grealish leaving Shaw the space because the RCB goes to the ball.

Ginter picks up Sterling, briefly. Rudiger, Goretzka (again, kinda sorta) and Kimmich react to Grealish. More than anyone else, Kimmich getting drawn inside leaves Germany incredibly vulnerable. He can't get back out to Shaw and because of that Ginter completely leaves Sterling. 

[The_jagster]

Just now, Barry Cartman said:

Shaw has all that space because everyone is reacting to Sterling, Grealish hardly has the ball for a second 

I have said earlier on that Sterling made the goal  

Grealish fakes his body to shoot so both Rudiger and the other player move across to block, as the RCB steps left it gives more room to Shaw. 

When Sterling makes the mistake we have to look at the rest of the defence, when he does well it's all him 

[skybluedave]

Grealish did well when he came on. Wouldn't say he changed the game because that would be a diservice to the other players who did well. 

I think England were starting to squeeze Germany more and apply more pressure. A sub helped (and was needed) also it moved Sterling to the right which is where the goal came from. Grealish did reinvigorate the crowd and give them a lift which can't be underestimated

[RTHerringbone]

Love this 

Can't be happy with a 2-0 so we'll quibble over the role players did or didn't have in a goal 😅

[Barry Cartman]

18 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

I have said earlier on that Sterling made the goal  

Grealish fakes his body to shoot so both Rudiger and the other player move across to block, as the RCB steps left it gives more room to Shaw. 

When Sterling makes the mistake we have to look at the rest of the defence, when he does well it's all him 

Not at all, others contributed, but not having Grealish was our best attacking player

[Yuko]

18 minutes ago, RTHerringbone said:

Love this 

Can't be happy with a 2-0 so we'll quibble over the role players did or didn't have in a goal 😅

Imagine if you had conceded as well

[XuluBak]

8 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Not at all, others contributed, but not having Grealish was our best attacking player

No one said he was...? I said Havertz was the best attacking player on the field until Grealish came on (i.e., until the subs happened for both sides around 70 minutes). That was when the game changed for both teams. I don't think it'd be unfair at all to say Havertz was the best attacking player for either side over the course of the entire match, but I added the qualifier because the game clearly changed with those subs. Sterling switched sides and had more help (Grealish). His impact was greater (after the subs) because of that.  

[RTHerringbone]

So.....have Ukraine got any injuries or suspensions affecting selection on Saturday? 

[Pukey]

37 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Grealish did well when he came on. Wouldn't say he changed the game because that would be a diservice to the other players who did well. 

I think England were starting to squeeze Germany more and apply more pressure. A sub helped (and was needed) also it moved Sterling to the right which is where the goal came from. Grealish did reinvigorate the crowd and give them a lift which can't be underestimated

Yeah, agree with this. Grealish a very good, and very important sub, but to me it wasn't like he started getting the ball and doing a million dribbles or anything so didn't change the game in that sense. He played a very good role though of course, and his assist was very good. It's obvious why people want him to start, but it's also obvious why Southgate benched him - probably already with the plan to bring him on with 20/30 minutes left. And tbf to him as well it doesn't seem he's moaning about it at all and is comfortable with being benched for England, as good as he is. Feels like in the past a player as good as him would be sulking all day long at the very thought of being benched.

[Heartwork]

1 minute ago, RTHerringbone said:

So.....have Ukraine got any injuries or suspensions affecting selection on Saturday? 

Just a couple. I know Popov got injured yesterday.

[ajw10]

I see Saka has gone from being good to "good for a kid". Some right weirdos in this thread, most of which aren't even fans of England

[Baptista_8]

Weirdos because they disagree with you?

[ajw10]

Nah weirdos because they over analyse everything and pretend everything is bad. They like to suck the joy out of everything

Like those that said that Germany would win, but now England have won it doesn't count because Germany are the worst team in football

[Baptista_8]

Haha reading all the differing and in depth opinions in here can definitely have the effect of making people overthink stuff.

[Smallen]

No disrespect to Saka who played well imo, but I do think the positions Grealish took up when he came on made a big difference for us. He drifted centrally behind Sterling and Kane (who actually played like a striker in the second half thank goodness) and filled that gaping space between midfield and attack that was definitely a bit of a problem in the first half.

[skybluedave]

I think Saka did well. Was a threat and caused Rudiger issues. But it was the right time to replace him. He put a shift in for an hour. Also can't underestimate the occasion for him. Comfortably the biggest game he's ever started in his incredibly short career. And didn't look overawed and nervous. Really pleased for him. Plus after seeing more interviews with him this summer, he's a great kid. I wish he was my mate

[XuluBak]

I don't think there's much to overthink. Saka is a very good young player, but he's nowhere near good enough to be starting over England's alternatives at this point. That's not a knock on him. He's 19 with a lot of upside, but they're just better players than him right now. He had a couple moments early, but as everyone else (minus Kane) grew into the match, Saka largely faded. If seemed like he was either too wide, too deep, or too late to be a real factor when England got forward*. He didn't have a bad game, just not a very impactful one. It was no surprise that the game swung as it did within moments of Grealish coming on for him. 

* TBF, maybe that's what he was told to do. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by XuluBak

[ajw10]

1 hour ago, skybluedave said:

I think Saka did well. Was a threat and caused Rudiger issues. But it was the right time to replace him. He put a shift in for an hour. Also can't underestimate the occasion for him. Comfortably the biggest game he's ever started in his incredibly short career. And didn't look overawed and nervous. Really pleased for him. Plus after seeing more interviews with him this summer, he's a great kid. I wish he was my mate

Starting him was the right call (and he should start on Saturday) and subbing him off for Grealish was the right call.

I find it an annoying trait in football fans that see a sub do well and think that he should start. Maybe he did well because he came on as a sub?

Saka is good in possession and makes good decisions. He balances out Sterling's chaotic nature. I think Grealish and Sterling together is a bit too chaotic and doesn't lead to us controlling football matches. The likes of Saka (and Mount/Foden) have the tools to control matches.

[PaulHartman71]

They’re not the Golden Generation, but they are the Greatest Generation. 

[Smallen]

John Terry would never.

[arenaross]

Great from Hendo. 

[fxbghdfn]

Great from whoever manages his twitter account. 

[ajw10]

3 hours ago, ajw10 said:

Nah weirdos because they over analyse everything and pretend everything is bad. They like to suck the joy out of everything

Like those that said that Germany would win, but now England have won it doesn't count because Germany are the worst team in football

 

8 minutes ago, fxbghdfn said:

Great from whoever manages his twitter account. 

 

[Baptista_8]

1 hour ago, ajw10 said:

Starting him was the right call (and he should start on Saturday) and subbing him off for Grealish was the right call.

I find it an annoying trait in football fans that see a sub do well and think that he should start. Maybe he did well because he came on as a sub?

Saka is good in possession and makes good decisions. He balances out Sterling's chaotic nature. I think Grealish and Sterling together is a bit too chaotic and doesn't lead to us controlling football matches. The likes of Saka (and Mount/Foden) have the tools to control matches.

Grealish a chaotic player? What on earth. He would be a better option to help us control possession than Saka.

[ajw10]

Would he? Within a minute of coming on yesterday he dribbled the ball out of play. Keeps hold of the ball a bit too long for me and isn't a good balance for Sterling who needs the ball fed to him quickly. The balance isn't right at all.

Feels a bit like the whole Gerrard/Lampard thing. Sven would have played Mount, Grealish and Foden together and we'd be struggling because the team is unbalanced. Southgate is superior because he actually thinks about how the team plays together.

Take Foden. I think Foden is the most gifted of all the English players but he also might not fit into this England side. He's not as good on the right as Sancho and Saka. I don't think he's as good on the left as Sterling and we don't play with a true number ten. 

I suspect Foden's time will come when Bellingham gets into the side and when Kane's influence wanes

[Baptista_8]

Grealish said in his post match interview that he kept slipping over when he first came on, but he is generally excellent at retaining possession. Wenger said it best when he said he's mastered when to play fast and when to play slow. He knows when to drive, also knows when to just keep the ball. He keeps hold of it when there's no good option on, but his decision making has always been excellent. And I'm not hating on Saka, he's a good player.

I personally think Sterling and Grealish either side of Kane is very balanced.

[GunmaN1905]

3 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

Feels a bit like the whole Gerrard/Lampard thing. Sven would have played Mount, Grealish and Foden together and we'd be struggling because the team is unbalanced. Southgate is superior because he actually thinks about how the team plays together.

Except that Gerrard/Lampard were established stars and those three haven't proven anything yet.

Why is Walker playing then? Because he's older. By far your worst player and has looked like the only weak link so far.