Are we OK with SI launching a pre-order campaign with absolutely no details on new features?

[Jimbokav1971]

 

Are we OK with SI launching a pre-order campaign with absolutely no details on new features?

Absolutely yes!

Nobody is forcing you to buy. If you would prefer to not take advantage of this offer and instead wait until they start talking about new features then that is completely up to you. 

If on the other hand you are more than likely to buy the game anyway, (because you bought it each of the 4 years and every year before that), then what's the risk? It's risk free. You are getting something at a discount that you know fine well that you are going to buy at some point so just say thanks and move on. 

 

 

[Pingdinho]

1 hour ago, Lord Rowell said:

But, re. you have the choice, frankly this is a spurious argument.

Sorry, can you explain that?

You either preorder or not at your discretion. 

[Malicious Penguin]

THREE PAGES?! 

Seriously? 

It's simple: if you don't like it, don't pre-order. There'll probably be cheaper deals elsewhere, or at least on a par with.

I have zero idea why this is a thing. 

[Pingdinho]

Can we have 5% off for every page this runs? 

[psucolonel]

On August 24, 2016 at 16:44, Miles Jacobson said:

most loyal customers. Those that, pretty much every year, pre-order the game without knowing anything about it because the pre-order opens before we announce game features. We are, literally, giving away money because the vast majority of those that pre-order at that stage would do anyway. Are pre-orders higher because of the loyalty scheme? Yes - they are. Which is awesome. It shows it was a good idea and lots of people want to take advantage of it. And it's awesome even though it's costing us money because those same people who are pre-ordering would likely buy the game anyway because to get the maximum discount, which is by far and away the one being used most, they would have to own the last 4 of our games. And I thank them very much for being loyal. And have wanted to do a loyalty scheme for years. And have spoken to Steam about it for years. And SEGA for years. And this year Steam have provided us the capability, and I thank them nearly as much as I thank those that are pre-ordering.

well said I think.  

[GoalieManPat121]

I am fine with them launching pre-orders this early. Its not gonna hurt anything. People are not going to suddenly not buy it because they are offering pre-orders before announcing features. You can always cancel a pre-order if you change your mind.

[Neil Brock]

9 hours ago, Pingdinho said:

Can we have 5% off for every page this runs? 

I think we'll 'add' 5% for every page

(not really). 

[bayern8176]

To be honest i did not enjoy fm16 as much but i have already pre ordered the new one and will continue to buy fm no matter what. The 20% discount was very nice but even if it was not offered i would have still bought the game. 

[OLLMEISTER1]

On ‎24‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 10:14, Wakers said:

Personally I don't pre-order anything. In the age of digital games I think it's a silly thing to do.

 

If anything I wait for the inevitable discount 2 months after release.

 

The issue is there are people out there that are susceptible to marketing. Our brains are susceptible marketing in general. So while I always tell people pre-ordering digital games is silly, I don't think we should let devs and publishers get away with shady marketing schemes, either.

 

Have SI delivered year on year? I'm not sure. For every good version of FM there's one or two really bad ones.

Exactly this!!!!

Don't think I could have summed it up better if I tried.

[alanschu14]

On 2016-08-24 at 07:26, QWERTYOP said:

Aren't you clever! So what are the new features that will dictate whether I want to slap thirty-odd quid down on it or not? "We're not telling you. Shut up and give us your money".

This problem seems easily remedied by not preordering and waiting until you hear details?

[enigmatic]

People already know the new feature which wants to make them buy the game (clubs, people and calendar updated for this season). Also, there will be tweaks to the match engine, although you won't find out if you like the changes until you've bought it and patched it anyway.

 

Is there anybody that preorders on a hunch that new features might include a Botswanan league or boot-cleaning module that's going to be disappointed when the final feature list comes out? It's not as if they're likely to quietly scrap transfers or the 3D match engine

[grade]

No, but there is always hope that SI come to their senses and remove Press Conferences... one can hope.

[gunner86]

Am I OK with the opportunity to pre-order and pay for something now rather than wait til closer to Christmas when I really should be thinking about spending my money on other people?

Yes, yes I am 

[QWERTYOP]

And still people are veering away from what the OP was asking... Nobody's asking if you're ok with a discount, nobody's asking if you're ok with pre-ordering. Good God. If you're going to disagree with the OP, at least do so on the basis of what he was asking!

[gunner86]

Ok...

Yes I'm OK with it. I'd have pre-ordered in March had the option been there. I have no issue with not knowing what new features, if any, are being released.

All I care about is that come (at least) two weeks before November 14th, I will be playing FM17

For what it's worth, and I may be wrong, but hasn't this always been the pattern? I mean, from memory, and again I may be wrong, but doesn't pre-order always become available once the game is officially announced, and then the feature announcements follow later?

[Danchinaski]

On 24/08/2016 at 14:35, QWERTYOP said:

Hey, if you're happy to have your custom taken for granted by S.I (which is exactly what this "tactic" smacks of) then good for you. Thankfully, not everybody feels that way. S.I are very good at treating the FM fanbase with disdain & taking them for granted. Why shouldn't they be, I suppose? We buy the game in our millions every year no matter what. It's almost like the customers are a necessary inconvenience to them sometimes.

I'm not sure what SI owe you. The discount offer is a good one, take it or leave it.

I'm not bothered about new features, either. I'd sooner see some of the fatal flaws in FM16 fixed, for example the stadium expansion bug which required purchase of the IGE to rectify, the ticket price bug which makes any LLM database practically useless, poor AI squad building, an improvement on the reputation system etc etc - there's a lot to like about FM16 and tacked-on, gimmicky new features wouldn't add a great deal to it IMO. I can't speak for anyone else but skimming through the posts on here over the last year or so, particularly in the feedback thread, a regular rage-theme appeared along the lines of "I wish SI would sort out bug x, y, or z rather than give us these poxy new features like a manager avatar rah rah splutter", so if SI have added no new features whatsoever but have rectified many of the flaws in FM16, most people should be happy, surely? 

[saiyaman]

Alright I admit I was curious how features were not announced before a pre-order became available and that's because I generally get FM on the release day.

If what @Miles Jacobson said is true and they have been launching pre-orders for years before announcing features then riddle me this: How in the world are people upset if this is already a well known method?

Is this a right to entitlement in the Sports Interactive Lawbook Section(34534543) Page 2?

[Readingfanman]

Fairly certain it's the first time they've launched with no features at all, this is last years thread with a link to "some of the features" etc, I'm not sure it is a well known method. Regardless of whether it's FM or not, it's not a great practice for the Games industry in general to get into I feel for the consumer surely? 

 

By FM doing it, and people palming it off, a publisher elsewhere will see it as an opportunity to do the same, until you end up ordering games with literally just a name and a general idea on genre.

 

 

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, Readingfanman said:

Fairly certain it's the first time they've launched with no features at all, this is last years thread with a link to "some of the features" etc, I'm not sure it is a well known method. Regardless of whether it's FM or not, it's not a great practice for the Games industry in general to get into I feel for the consumer surely? 

 

By FM doing it, and people palming it off, a publisher elsewhere will see it as an opportunity to do the same, until you end up ordering games with literally just a name and a general idea on genre.

And then it'll just be anarchy!  Water flowing upwards, dogs eating people, England winning something...just anarchy! 

If you think this is the harbinger of "bad practices" in the games industry, then you probably shouldn't do any further research into the actual poor practices currently in place in the industry.  Might blow your mind.

[Readingfanman]

Just now, forameuss said:

And then it'll just be anarchy!  Water flowing upwards, dogs eating people, England winning something...just anarchy! 

If you think this is the harbinger of "bad practices" in the games industry, then you probably shouldn't do any further research into the actual poor practices currently in place in the industry.  Might blow your mind.

Working in the industry, I'm well aware of the bad practices, thanks for the lesson though. Why add one more though?

[themadsheep2001]

Most of the OPs posts have actually been answered. 

A) most of the people buying now, would buy FM regardless, the lack of info right now is irrelevant to them

B) the pre order lasts so long that Info will more than likely be coming out for those who want to wait

C) the pre order will not be the only place where people and get a good deal

D) Marketing is about influencing people, that's its very nature. It's up to people as consumers to analyse that. At some point people need to take responsibility for their purchasing actions 

[Cougar2010]

8 minutes ago, Readingfanman said:

By FM doing it, and people palming it off, a publisher elsewhere will see it as an opportunity to do the same, until you end up ordering games with literally just a name and a general idea on genre.

The important difference here is choice though.

Other publishers may try the same, in fact you already have games that are released in alpha status with people buying into the concept so that the companies can raise early cash to fund the project and thats before you look at those financed by the likes of kickstarter.

However the bottom line is as always you have a choice, SI have given people a choice, no-one is forced to pre-order anything.  People who have taken advantage already do so on the basis that FM is a mature title & they know the basics of what to expect.  That is a world away from buying into just a name & concept.

In general people argue that more options are good & yet here we are in a situation where some of those same people are now complaining when SI have done just that.

[forameuss]

7 minutes ago, Readingfanman said:

Working in the industry, I'm well aware of the bad practices, thanks for the lesson though. Why add one more though?

Because it's essentially not a thing.  Miles has explained exactly why they've done this.  They've seen boosts in their pre-orders, so clearly it's received well enough outside of the tin-foil hat wearers.  Then the rest of the people are exercising their absolute right not to pre-order until they hear more.  Where is the problem?  If other companies want to do that too, and offer something extra to leverage the lack of announced features, go for it.  People will then be totally at liberty to preorder or not.  Again, where is the issue?

This isn't companies putting an embargo on games that are clearly turds just so they don't take a hit.  This isn't a company putting in gambling elements in games aimed at children.  This isn't a company releasing an early access game for the price of a AAA game.  This is a company offering an optional preorder.  And it's made some people absolutely seething for no reason whatsoever.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

7 minutes ago, Readingfanman said:

By FM doing it, and people palming it off, a publisher elsewhere will see it as an opportunity to do the same, until you end up ordering games with literally just a name and a general idea on genre.

 

Already done. Maybe not with actual releases, but it is done with DLC via season passes, especially recently. Games offer a season pass, make some vague comment on what will be in, but actually doesn't disclose anything short of the 'number' of potential dlc. No distinction as to whether it will be expansions or cosmetics etc.

 

People lap it up.

 

Look at No Man's Sky. That's one step further, announce features, remove them before launch, absolutely burn bridges with the fans as a result. Guess what? People are STILL defending the developers/publisher and the game itself.

 

Basically, I don't think SI are doing anything immoral, bad, or wrong. They're offering pre-orders, without announcing features. Nothing major to that. People will either order, or not. People will justify and defend it, or criticise it. (Both for our entertainment, really, cos both sides suck! >_> Third option is to wait and see!  (I'm Joking, just in case I really need to be obvious about it... -_-))

 

Really this is a complete non-issue. (Personally, I'm against pre-ordering and such since I started participating with PatientGamers, but even in this instance it doesn't really bother me, though really I'd say if someone is upset about the game after pre-ordering without knowing the changes, it's their own fault, and I can't really criticise SI for setting up a means to take money that is freely offered tbh.)

[Just-Wool]

Heck 2k does this all the time with WWE and NBA. Pre order has been up for a couple of months and the only new thing we know is Goldberg is in WWE and team USA in NBA. No new features have been released yet to my knowledge.

[Readingfanman]

3 minutes ago, monkeywool said:

Heck 2k does this all the time with WWE and NBA. Pre order has been up for a couple of months and the only new thing we know is Goldberg is in WWE and team USA in NBA. No new features have been released yet to my knowledge.

Very true. Having seen the scheduling on these 2 up to release., it's just an odd practice I find!

[Maw74]

3 hours ago, QWERTYOP said:

And still people are veering away from what the OP was asking... Nobody's asking if you're ok with a discount, nobody's asking if you're ok with pre-ordering. Good God. If you're going to disagree with the OP, at least do so on the basis of what he was asking!

People have answered.

On 8/25/2016 at 14:58, Maw74 said:

 

Personally yes I'm ok with it,

You have the choice, pre-order now or wait for more info and then you can pre-order.

 

56 minutes ago, Readingfanman said:

Fairly certain it's the first time they've launched with no features at all, this is last years thread with a link to "some of the features" etc, I'm not sure it is a well known method. Regardless of whether it's FM or not, it's not a great practice for the Games industry in general to get into I feel for the consumer surely? 

By FM doing it, and people palming it off, a publisher elsewhere will see it as an opportunity to do the same, until you end up ordering games with literally just a name and a general idea on genre.

Well it would have to be a Game/Company that has a history, FM has that so yeah a lot of people are willing to pre-order without any details as they have a very good Idea of what they are getting regardless of any new features, well unless SI go a bit mental and and put teams and players in random leagues.

 

 

[Lord Rowell]

3 hours ago, QWERTYOP said:

And still people are veering away from what the OP was asking... Nobody's asking if you're ok with a discount, nobody's asking if you're ok with pre-ordering. Good God. If you're going to disagree with the OP, at least do so on the basis of what he was asking!

Exhausting isn't it?

[Lord Rowell]

7 minutes ago, Maw74 said:

People have answered.

 

Well it would have to be a Game/Company that has a history, FM has that so yeah a lot of people are willing to pre-order without any details as they have a very good Idea of what they are getting regardless of any new features, well unless SI go a bit mental and and put teams and players in random leagues.

 

 

So you summed it up yourself. this is based on brand strength. Now while some may think that is fair game as a marketing approach, others may think it is still unethical as it doesn't provide the consumer with the full info they need to make an informed purchase. It is an example of assymetric information (seller has more power than buyer) which is unethical.

That's not a good reflection on SI.

Re. consumers, good luck with relying on the brand, but one day expect to get your fingers burned.

[Lord Rowell]

7 minutes ago, Maw74 said:

People have answered.

 

Well it would have to be a Game/Company that has a history, FM has that so yeah a lot of people are willing to pre-order without any details as they have a very good Idea of what they are getting regardless of any new features, well unless SI go a bit mental and and put teams and players in random leagues.

 

 

So you summed it up yourself. this is based on brand strength. Now while some may think that is fair game as a marketing approach, others may think it is still unethical as it doesn't provide the consumer with the full info they need to make an informed purchase. It is an example of assymetric information (seller has more power than buyer) which is unethical.

That's not a good reflection on SI.

Re. consumers, good luck with relying on the brand, but one day expect to get your fingers burned.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Lord Rowell said:

others may think it is still unethical as it doesn't provide the consumer with the full info they need to make an informed purchase.

Then that consumer has the right to wait until he's happy with the information about FM17.

[Maw74]

4 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

So you summed it up yourself. this is based on brand strength. Now while some may think that is fair game as a marketing approach, others may think it is still unethical as it doesn't provide the consumer with the full info they need to make an informed purchase. It is an example of assymetric information (seller has more power than buyer) which is unethical.

That's not a good reflection on SI.

Re. consumers, good luck with relying on the brand, but one day expect to get your fingers burned.

of course it is based on brand strength.

4 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Then that consumer has the right to wait until he's happy with the information about FM17.

Exactly that.

[Lord Rowell]

4 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Then that consumer has the right to wait until he's happy with the information about FM17.

Lovely to see the mod team all singing from the same hymn sheet. Top management. No diversity of opinion whatsoever here

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Lord Rowell said:

Lovely to see the mod team all singing from the same hymn sheet. Top management. No diversity of opinion whatsoever here

It's just coincidence that we're all sane of mind.

[herne79]

SI really are damned if they do and damned if they don't aren't they?

Lets just be happy we're getting a discount for nothing, and if people want to wait to see what the features are before committing to a purchase then everybody wins.

Am I ok with SI announcing this before game info?  Yeh totally - call me naive if you like but I simply view it as a nice gesture on SI's part by giving something back to the community.

[Lord Rowell]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

SI really are damned if they do and damned if they don't aren't they?

Lets just be happy we're getting a discount for nothing, and if people want to wait to see what the features are before committing to a purchase then everybody wins.

Sorry no. There's a discussion to be had here.

In fairness, Miles did briefly engage with it. But for many to just want to sweep the discussion under the carpet really isn't on and I think it is the responsibility of moderators to ensure that discussion flows.

[herne79]

No carpets, no sweeping, just an opinion.

The bottom line is we either believe SI when they say this is a loyalty scheme to give us something back, or we don't.  Personally I do.

And to answer the OP, I'm fine with it.  I think it's a nice gesture, plain and simple.

[themadsheep2001]

Rowell, We know our roles, you don't, so don't attempt to discuss what we are or are not responsible for. The ONLY people who can do that are SI, namely Neil for the most part. No discussion is being swept under so don't make things up. People not agreeing with your view =/= discussion being swept under. So discuss the point rather than snarky comments about mods or the things will be moved on. One person has already been dealt with. 

Play the ball, not the man. Last time I want to have to make this point to anyone, thanks. 

 

 

[themadsheep2001]

11 minutes ago, herne79 said:

No carpets, no sweeping, just an opinion.

The bottom line is we either believe SI when they say this is a loyalty scheme to give us something back, or we don't.  Personally I do.

And to answer the OP, I'm fine with it.  I think it's a nice gesture, plain and simple.

The main reason I have no issue with it is the length, and the fact that Info will undoubtedly come out within that time. I posted my other reasoning earlier, but the time frame is key for me.  If it was say, one week, and well before any chance of info coming out I wouldn't agree. 

Personally I'm a wait and see person on all my purchases. I've got plenty of time to hear about FM17 before I buy or not buy it under pre order.

 

[Just-Wool]

3 hours ago, Readingfanman said:

Very true. Having seen the scheduling on these 2 up to release., it's just an odd practice I find!

They don't have a 20% discount because you bought the past 4 versions either. 

[Pingdinho]

I really hope this nonsense doesn't deter SI having this kind of offer for FM18.

[treble_yell_:-)]

I'm not cool with it at all. It seems a rather insidious practice.

I won't buy until they announce the features , and in a perfect world no one else would either. The whole "lets just thank them for the discount" is also nothing to do with this thread, the 2 points are separate and dismissing people s opinions because they should just be grateful to SI is utterly bizarre.

[Maaka]

Seriously? What's there NOT to be OK with?

SI has launched a pre-order campaign, there have been no released details on new features.

SO F***ING WHAT? What is the problem??

They've launched a pre-order campaign, which means that those who wish can pre-order the game with a discount until october. IF one wishes to pre-order without knowing any "new features", one has THE OPTION to do so. IF one doesn't wish to do so, then one has THE OPTION to NOT!

It's not like they're saying "if you don't pre-order, you can't buy the game", or something similar, if you don't want to pre-order, then you don't do it. Nobody's forcing you to do it.

Sorry, I just don't get why people has a problem with this.

[nbthree3]

If SI want to give us plenty of new features like the things we saw this year, I'm happy enough to get the game! If I was a FIFA fan (which I'm not anymore) then yes, wait until the features are announced. But when you have faith in a game like I do with Football Manager, you assume we'll get some nice stuff.

My expert advice; wait until the features are announced if you are on a low budget (or are skeptical about the discount thing). If you are confident that SI will deliver, the price is yours.

But still, we've got 'till October to do it, a month is easily enough time to decide!

[Pingdinho]

17 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

The whole "lets just thank them for the discount" is also nothing to do with this thread, the 2 points are separate and dismissing people s opinions because they should just be grateful to SI is utterly bizarre.

I don't think so. The discount offer is intrinsic to the very preorder campaign that we are being asked to decide if we are OK with. The discount is a reason why many are OK with the campaign.

I totally get why someone wouldn't want to preorder at this point in time due to the lack of feature announcements. In fact, I would argue that is an entirely reasonable and rational decision. What I don't understand is the offence that it apparently seems people are feeling over the very existence of the choice to preorder at this point in time.

To me this is no different to preordering a book or anything else where the details of what it is you are going to receive are unknown. The terms are crystal clear. The window of opportunity is gapingly large. The choice is entirely free. The lack of feature announcements is obvious.

I am completely comfortable with the consumer being able to make their own decision on if to preorder or not. To be honest I find it questionable and bizarre to hold the position that SI should not make such an offer as that position by definition seeks to deny an option that quite clearly so many are keen to pursue.

And this is the heart of it - it's an option. A choice. The question of whether 'we' are OK with this campaign is a legitimate one I think. But the answer to that question is individualistic, entirely underscored by a person's particular values, and ultimately is probably best measured by whether one makes that preorder or not.

If the point of this discussion is to find a universal answer on the 'ok-ness' of all this, we're clearly going to be disappointed.

[themadsheep2001]

29 minutes ago, Pingdinho said:

I don't think so. The discount offer is intrinsic to the very preorder campaign that we are being asked to decide if we are OK with. The discount is a reason why many are OK with the campaign.

I totally get why someone wouldn't want to preorder at this point in time due to the lack of feature announcements. In fact, I would argue that is an entirely reasonable and rational decision. What I don't understand is the offence that it apparently seems people are feeling over the very existence of the choice to preorder at this point in time.

To me this is no different to preordering a book or anything else where the details of what it is you are going to receive are unknown. The terms are crystal clear. The window of opportunity is gapingly large. The choice is entirely free. The lack of feature announcements is obvious.

I am completely comfortable with the consumer being able to make their own decision on if to preorder or not. To be honest I find it questionable and bizarre to hold the position that SI should not make such an offer as that position by definition seeks to deny an option that quite clearly so many are keen to pursue.

And this is the heart of it - it's an option. A choice. The question of whether 'we' are OK with this campaign is a legitimate one I think. But the answer to that question is individualistic, entirely underscored by a person's particular values, and ultimately is probably best measured by whether one makes that preorder or not.

If the point of this discussion is to find a universal answer on the 'ok-ness' of all this, we're clearly going to be disappointed.

Well said. The second to last paragraph is spot on

[BoxToBox]

What I don't get is, it's pretty standard for FM to be available on pre-order with ages, I'm sure I had 15 and 16 ordered in a similar time frame.

The only difference this year, being a nice discount.....

 

 

[Tyler42]

I was thinking about just waiting for the x-mas sale this time around since the game itself has become a $50 game. But since I have every version down to 2009 on steam I guess I'll just end up pre ordering it. Since its a loyalty discount it's basically saying "Hey, we know you like this game and you'll pretty much buy it no matter what" meaning we don't really care about new features. 

And that got me also thinking about how FM15 vs FM16 just feel like a DB updated and a tweaked game for the normal PC user. The focus seems to be more and more on the Touch (Tablet/phone) players and I feel like since Fifa Manager stopped, the only real competition for FM stopped, now they own this genre and others are miles behind.

I really hope they do something good this year because this year's game didn't impress me that much.

[themadsheep2001]

5 minutes ago, Tyler42 said:

I was thinking about just waiting for the x-mas sale this time around since the game itself has become a $50 game. But since I have every version down to 2009 on steam I guess I'll just end up pre ordering it. Since its a loyalty discount it's basically saying "Hey, we know you like this game and you'll pretty much buy it no matter what" meaning we don't really care about new features. 

And that got me also thinking about how FM15 vs FM16 just feel like a DB updated and a tweaked game for the normal PC user. The focus seems to be more and more on the Touch (Tablet/phone) players and I feel like since Fifa Manager stopped, the only real competition for FM stopped, now they own this genre and others are miles behind.

I really hope they do something good this year because this year's game didn't impress me that much.

I think you've read far too much into it. 

And if you were disappointed with last year and you're ordering anyway without waiting to see what's in it, then surely any future disappointments are on you? Why not just be patient?

[Tyler42]

2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I think you've read far too much into it. 

And if you were disappointed with last year and you're ordering anyway without waiting to see what's in it, then surely any future disappointments are on you? Why not just be patient?

Not really, I just thought about how I can't really remember any difference between the versions from this and last year's game. And how there are not really any "major" new features for the game anymore.

 

And I haven't ordered it yet, I'm going to see if they release the features before the deadline (The 14th iirc)

But yeah, if I would order it without seeing the new feature list, and then find out I wasn't impressed by them of course that would be on me.