Are we OK with SI launching a pre-order campaign with absolutely no details on new features?

[themadsheep2001]

10 minutes ago, Tyler42 said:

Not really, I just thought about how I can't really remember any difference between the versions from this and last year's game. And how there are not really any "major" new features for the game anymore.

 

And I haven't ordered it yet, I'm going to see if they release the features before the deadline (The 14th iirc)

But yeah, if I would order it without seeing the new feature list, and then find out I wasn't impressed by them of course that would be on me. 

The cut price isn't tied into any of that, hence you reading too much into it. Last years features might not have been to your liking, which is subjective and based on the user, but to say there were not major features would not be true (though that's never been a selling point for me for the most part, personally. The match engine and TC will always remain my selling points)

[Tony Wright 747]

I dont think it is the discount thats the issue here, it's the release date being announced before the features.  Usually the features are set and when SI are happy with them the realease date is announced.  The fact that the realease date is fixed assumes that they are happy with the features already but that there are not any/many new features and they are worried that this will affect pre orders, but I think there are a lot of people who would be happy with this as long as the flaws in FM16 were ironed out

[pheelf]

I think the whole thing was done with the best of intentions by SI but could have been done less clumsily to avoid some of the questions which have arisen.

1) Why is the discount only available if you pre-order?

2) Why do we have to wait until the game is near release for a feature list?

3) Is the discount indicating something about the quality of FM17 for seasoned followers of the series? 

For the most part I consider SI to be a trustworthy and reputable games company (much more trustworthy than most in the games industry) but I don't really like this notion of testing the faith of their most loyal customers.

The question everyone needs to ask themselves is whether they would buy any other game based solely on the name? If yes, then you should have no issue with this but if the answer is no then you are going to have a problem regardless of whether you consider SI to have a good track record or not.

Finally, will some of the posters in this thread stop telling others how they should be feeling about this considering we are talking about people parting with their hard earned money. There seems to be this almost self righteous attitude of...well...I'm alright with it so you should be too. This trend of trying to stifle any opinion which doesn't agree with the groups 'accepted' view isn't really acceptable.

Moreover this self censoring can be damaging for SI as they aren't getting a true reflection of public opinion on the decisions they make. For as long as people remain constructive with their criticism they shouldn't feel like they can't post their opinion without fear of being ostracized and condescended to. In the end, all that will happen is they will stop posting.

Yes, nobody is forcing anybody to buy but it's subtle coercion. "Buy it before a certain time or lose the discount" which is a form of pressure selling which isn't ethical practice from my perspective.

[themadsheep2001]

9 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I dont think it is the discount thats the issue here, it's the release date being announced before the features.  Usually the features are set and when SI are happy with them the realease date is announced.  The fact that the realease date is fixed assumes that they are happy with the features already but that there are not any/many new features and they are worried that this will affect pre orders, but I think there are a lot of people who would be happy with this as long as the flaws in FM16 were ironed out

I think you should read Miles reply about feature announcements. There is a lot more to it than that. You've made a few assumptions, and they aren't particularly correct. The sheer length of the pre order means there is no pressure. If one is being panicked by a promotion that still has over 6 weeks to go, that's on them tbh. 

The idea that one wouldn't be able to find a discount after the promotion is also false. Have some patience, shop around, or wait for the prices thread that is always made each year. 

Gamers in general need to start taking more responsibility for their purchasing decisions. Not taking about just FM, but in general. If you get burned by day one purchases, stop making them, if you get caught in the hype, stop listening to it. 

[Maw74]

4 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

If one is being panicked by a promotion that still has over 6 weeks to go, that's on them tbh. 

Totally, there is no rush for anyone to pre-order, I will be very surprised if info on features etc is not released during that period anyway, if we see/hear nothing until after the date has passed then people will have every right to kick up a fuss.

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, Maw74 said:

Totally, there is no rush for anyone to pre-order, I will be very surprised if info on features etc is not released during that period anyway, if we see/hear nothing until after the date has passed then people will have every right to kick up a fuss.

That's exactly where I stand. 

Despite what some might think, I haven't pre ordered, because my rules for FM are the same for all games I buy. I'm still waiting for more info and I'll pre order/purchase when ready

[Tony Wright 747]

24 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I think you should read Miles reply about feature announcements. There is a lot more to it than that. You've made a few assumptions, and they aren't particularly correct. The sheer length of the pre order means there is no pressure. If one is being panicked by a promotion that still has over 6 weeks to go, that's on them tbh. 

The idea that one wouldn't be able to find a discount after the promotion is also false. Have some patience, shop around, or wait for the prices thread that is always made each year. 

Gamers in general need to start taking more responsibility for their purchasing decisions. Not taking about just FM, but in general. If you get burned by day one purchases, stop making them, if you get caught in the hype, stop listening to it. 

Did you read my post fully.  I said that the discount or the price come to that was not the issue.  I just said it was strange that the release date was announced so early when usually the stance is "when it's ready" which led me to beleive that the features are already set in stone. I would be interested in reading miles reply about feature announcements though, I was unable to find it (a link would be nice)

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Tony Wright 747 said:

Did you read my post fully.  I said that the discount or the price come to that was not the issue.  I just said it was strange that the release date was announced so early when usually the stance is "when it's ready" which led me to beleive that the features are already set in stone. I would be interested in reading miles reply about feature announcements though, I was unable to find it (a link would be nice)

Page 2.

[themadsheep2001]

28 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Did you read my post fully.  I said that the discount or the price come to that was not the issue.  I just said it was strange that the release date was announced so early when usually the stance is "when it's ready" which led me to beleive that the features are already set in stone. I would be interested in reading miles reply about feature announcements though, I was unable to find it (a link would be nice)

Yes I did, and your points about features are answered by miles. Didn't offer link as I had thought you had read the thread, it's on page 2. 

[Lord Rowell]

1 hour ago, pheelf said:

I think the whole thing was done with the best of intentions by SI but could have been done less clumsily to avoid some of the questions which have arisen.

1) Why is the discount only available if you pre-order?

2) Why do we have to wait until the game is near release for a feature list?

3) Is the discount indicating something about the quality of FM17 for seasoned followers of the series? 

For the most part I consider SI to be a trustworthy and reputable games company (much more trustworthy than most in the games industry) but I don't really like this notion of testing the faith of their most loyal customers.

The question everyone needs to ask themselves is whether they would buy any other game based solely on the name? If yes, then you should have no issue with this but if the answer is no then you are going to have a problem regardless of whether you consider SI to have a good track record or not.

Finally, will some of the posters in this thread stop telling others how they should be feeling about this considering we are talking about people parting with their hard earned money. There seems to be this almost self righteous attitude of...well...I'm alright with it so you should be too. This trend of trying to stifle any opinion which doesn't agree with the groups 'accepted' view isn't really acceptable.

Moreover this self censoring can be damaging for SI as they aren't getting a true reflection of public opinion on the decisions they make. For as long as people remain constructive with their criticism they shouldn't feel like they can't post their opinion without fear of being ostracized and condescended to. In the end, all that will happen is they will stop posting.

Yes, nobody is forcing anybody to buy but it's subtle coercion. "Buy it before a certain time or lose the discount" which is a form of pressure selling which isn't ethical practice from my perspective.

Agree with this completely and it is bizarre why a small section of people are writing in a fashion that is likely to limit the true reflection of opinion - you summed it up perfectly.

It doesn't reflect well on SI at all and doesn't protect the brand, in fact it weakens it.

[Cougar2010]

10 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Agree with this completely and it is bizarre why a small section of people are writing in a fashion that is likely to limit the true reflection of opinion - you summed it up perfectly.

It doesn't reflect well on SI at all and doesn't protect the brand, in fact it weakens it.

and yet the question still hasn't been answered "Why shouldn't people be able to pre-order if they so wish?"

I find it bizarre that you want to stop people doing something that has nothing to do with you.  I haven't pre-ordered, I imagine you haven't pre-ordered but why do you want to stop others?

[RTHerringbone]

I'm fine with the concept. I personally don't care what new features are revealed as I'm happy with the core content of the game. Those core components can all be improved, so as long as 17 is a better version of 16, it's all good.

[herne79]

34 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

It doesn't reflect well on SI at all and doesn't protect the brand, in fact it weakens it.

As Miles put it, for at least the last couple of FMs, the game has been made available to pre-order before features have been released.  The pre-order offer was still available after features had been released of course.

This year it's exactly the same, except now we can benefit from an up to 20% discount as well.

I really don't understand how this year, when the only change from previous years is one of financial benefit to us, "it doesn't reflect well on SI and weakens the brand"?

[Lord Rowell]

1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

and yet the question still hasn't been answered "Why shouldn't people be able to pre-order if they so wish?"

I find it bizarre that you want to stop people doing something that has nothing to do with you.  I haven't pre-ordered, I imagine you haven't pre-ordered but why do you want to stop others?

Which isn't what the thread is about, and not what I've said.

[Cougar2010]

9 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Which isn't what the thread is about, and not what I've said.

Thats not quite true.

The original question was "Are people happy with SI announcing the release date/allowing pre-orders without announcing any features?".  Pre-orders being allowed once the release date is known.

A lot of people clearly are happy as they are placing pre-orders while others don't have an issue with it although haven't placed a pre-order.

 

Given you have a choice whether to pre-order or not why is not announcing features such an issue for you?

A) Pre-ordering is a choice.

B) I'm expecting features will be announced over the next six weeks before the pre-order offer ends (If not then there is an issue).

C) You can get a refund if you change your mind at a later date.

 

Given the above three points I can't see why any reasonable person would have an issue with this.  I find it staggering that something SI have done for the last couple of years with no problems has suddenly become a four page thread this year.

[Lord Rowell]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

As Miles put it, for at least the last couple of FMs, the game has been made available to pre-order before features have been released.  The pre-order offer was still available after features had been released of course.

This year it's exactly the same, except now we can benefit from an up to 20% discount as well.

I really don't understand how this year, when the only change from previous years is one of financial benefit to us, "it doesn't reflect well on SI and weakens the brand"?

I personally tend to be very careful when cutting, pasting & quoting people as when doing that there is significant risk of statements being quoted out of context and the further you reduce the quote, the higher that risk is.

As you have quoted me:

1. Where is that quote from?

2. Next time please could you use the proper quote function so we can all see the context? Thanks.

Once again, I see the point of the OP being lost here and the thread tangenting into something else. In one sense its no wonder some are coming on here and wondering why people are moaning about discount, because that's how the thread is being re-framed by some.

The only reason btw I'm continuing to check this thread & post on it is because of the reactions of a few people (I have to be vague there as I've been told). Otherwise, the OP posted, I gave my view. I'd more than likely have just walked away and forgotten about it if there hadn't been a pile-on to present the SI corporate line, to be condescending to concerns that have been expressed and to adopt a dismissive attitude. I don't like censorship and while not direct, what is occurring here is a subtle form of it by constantly re-presenting the corporate line and re-framing those who have concerns in a negative light, also mis-representing their arguments.

SI need to be listening to their consumers via this thread. As has already been said elsewhere in a post I did quote, the SI approach on this thread is counter to that.

Edit - addition: With a quieter approach from SI, this thread would have dribbled down the forum list long ago.

[themadsheep2001]

 

16 hours ago, Pingdinho said:

 

12 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

Thats not quite true.

The original question was "Are people happy with SI announcing the release date/allowing pre-orders without announcing any features?".  Pre-orders being allowed once the release date is known.

A lot of people clearly are happy as they are placing pre-orders while others don't have an issue with it although haven't placed a pre-order.

 

Given you have a choice whether to pre-order or not why is not announcing features such an issue for you?

A) Pre-ordering is a choice.

B) I'm expecting features will be announced over the next six weeks before the pre-order offer ends (If not then there is an issue).

C) You can get a refund if you change your mind at a later date.

 

Given the above three points I can't see why any reasonable person would have an issue with this.  I find it staggering that something SI have done for the last couple of years with no problems has suddenly become a four page thread this year.

SI will be looking at the thread, and most of all looking at the uptake numbers on the previous orders. This is the third year the pre-order has happened. Which means it's clearly working. So I very much expect to see this next year 

[KUBI]

To sum up the 4 pages:

 

[pheelf]

1 hour ago, RTHerringbone said:

I'm fine with the concept. I personally don't care what new features are revealed as I'm happy with the core content of the game. Those core components can all be improved, so as long as 17 is a better version of 16, it's all good.

Which is your opinion that's as valid as anybody else and is not a problem. The issue I have is when somebody presents a contrary opinion and it's roundly dismissed when all they have done is give their answer to the question posed. What's so controversial about stating that you'd like to see what a game is likely to contain before purchasing it?

 

2 hours ago, Maw74 said:

Totally, there is no rush for anyone to pre-order, I will be very surprised if info on features etc is not released during that period anyway, if we see/hear nothing until after the date has passed then people will have every right to kick up a fuss.

This is pretty much spot on. It's more than likely just a waiting game to hear what the new game is going to be like so people can make an informed decision. The only reason why this has become an issue is because earlier in the thread there was the implication that the discount would end before any information was released about the new game which sets up the situation where you would be buying the game on blind faith and if you didn't you would lose your entitlement to the discount proposed which is why it could be seen as unethical. 

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, pheelf said:

Which is your opinion that's as valid as anybody else and is not a problem. The issue I have is when somebody presents a contrary opinion and it's roundly dismissed when all they have done is give their answer to the question posed. What's so controversial about stating that you'd like to see what a game is likely to contain before purchasing it?

 

This is pretty much spot on. It's more than likely just a waiting game to hear what the new game is going to be like so people can make an informed decision. The only reason why this has become an issue is because earlier in the thread there was the implication that the discount would end before any information was released about the new game which sets up the situation where you would be buying the game on blind faith and if you didn't you would lose your entitlement to the discount proposed which is why it could be seen as unethical. 

It's going to end October 14th. That's more than enough time. Pre order or not, we should be hearing about the game as there would be only 3 weeks at most till release. 

[Lord Rowell]

4 minutes ago, KUBI said:

To sum up the 4 pages:

 

I don't think that's a constructive post in this thread. It may have been intended to inject some humour, if so I don't think its appropriate here given the manner in which the views of some have been blatantly dismissed and often misrepresented.

[KUBI]

I think it's a lot of talk past each other. This is an topic in which their is no right or wrong. It's just something people could have different opinions. And in this thread the different opinions are all unsencored and readable for everyone. 

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Lord Rowell said:

4 hours ago, pheelf said:

I think the whole thing was done with the best of intentions by SI but could have been done less clumsily to avoid some of the questions which have arisen.

1) Why is the discount only available if you pre-order?

2) Why do we have to wait until the game is near release for a feature list?

3) Is the discount indicating something about the quality of FM17 for seasoned followers of the series? 

For the most part I consider SI to be a trustworthy and reputable games company (much more trustworthy than most in the games industry) but I don't really like this notion of testing the faith of their most loyal customers.

The question everyone needs to ask themselves is whether they would buy any other game based solely on the name? If yes, then you should have no issue with this but if the answer is no then you are going to have a problem regardless of whether you consider SI to have a good track record or not.

Finally, will some of the posters in this thread stop telling others how they should be feeling about this considering we are talking about people parting with their hard earned money. There seems to be this almost self righteous attitude of...well...I'm alright with it so you should be too. This trend of trying to stifle any opinion which doesn't agree with the groups 'accepted' view isn't really acceptable.

Moreover this self censoring can be damaging for SI as they aren't getting a true reflection of public opinion on the decisions they make. For as long as people remain constructive with their criticism they shouldn't feel like they can't post their opinion without fear of being ostracized and condescended to. In the end, all that will happen is they will stop posting.

Yes, nobody is forcing anybody to buy but it's subtle coercion. "Buy it before a certain time or lose the discount" which is a form of pressure selling which isn't ethical practice from my perspective.

Agree with this completely and it is bizarre why a small section of people are writing in a fashion that is likely to limit the true reflection of opinion - you summed it up perfectly.

It doesn't reflect well on SI at all and doesn't protect the brand, in fact it weakens it.

Better?

Not trying to be dismissive, condescending or present an SI corporate line.  As stated above, I genuinely don't understand why some are seeing this discount and at least intimating there may be something else at play other than SI saying they're giving something back to us.  It may be away from what the OP was asking, but the point has been raised.  Just look at question 3) here and your complete agreement.

If I've misunderstood something then that's my bad, but claims of self-righteous attitudes, bizarre writing fashions, and subtle forms of censorship don't help the discussion either.  Which, at the risk of quoting out of context and paraphrasing, is actually the responsibility of everyone, not just the mods.

Anyway, I'm going back into my tactics hole.  Hopefully the OP (and others) will read Miles' post on page #2 to help them at least understand why SI have made their decision, even if they don't agree with or like it.

[Tony Wright 747]

3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Yes I did, and your points about features are answered by miles. Didn't offer link as I had thought you had read the thread, it's on page 2. 

Thanks for that guys, dont know how I missed it first time around.  having read it I have changed my view somewhat, it would appear that they have not announced any features because they have not completed testing and with the realease date being released early, some of these features won't make the final cut.  Wise strategy

[Malicious Penguin]

Can someone explain to me like I'm 5 what the actual issue is with SI launching a pre-order campaign with no features yet announced?

[deltablue]

19 hours ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

I'm not cool with it at all. It seems a rather insidious practice.

I won't buy until they announce the features , and in a perfect world no one else would either. The whole "lets just thank them for the discount" is also nothing to do with this thread, the 2 points are separate and dismissing people s opinions because they should just be grateful to SI is utterly bizarre.

It is not insidious in the slightest, since that would imply some sort of nasty hidden surprise is involved. There's plenty of time to get information and make an informed decision on pre-ordering, and even if whatever announcements are made aren't quite to your satisfaction, that's very different from what your suggesting. FM gradually evolves over time so I think anyone on these forums who have played multiple versions of the game will know roughly what to expect, as well as the benefit from the new features. Even people who are pre-ordering early have a decent idea of what they're getting, rather than being tempted into making any sort of rash decision in the dark.

[grade]

40 minutes ago, Malicious Penguin said:

Can someone explain to me like I'm 5 what the actual issue is with SI launching a pre-order campaign with no features yet announced?

The issue here it seems, that a lot of people think the promotion will end before any announcements of features are made.

Its not the promotion itself. A lot of people believe that features announcement will be released before the promotion ends. Others, believe that will not happen and they will loose the promotion, just because they want to see what new features will make to FM17.

 from my understanding from miles post this promotion is intended for the loyal fans that pre-order the game regardless of features. What I conclude is that they will not release any features before the end of the promotion. I hope that I'm wrong

[Malicious Penguin]

15 minutes ago, grade said:

The issue here it seems, that a lot of people think the promotion will end before any announcements of features are made.

Its not the promotion itself. A lot of people believe that features announcement will be released before the promotion ends. Others, believe that will not happen and they will loose the promotion, just because they want to see what new features will make to FM17.

 from my understanding from miles post this promotion is intended for the loyal fans that pre-order the game regardless of features. What I conclude is that they will not release any features before the end of the promotion. I hope that I'm wrong

If I'm not mistaken SI/the mods have stated the promotion expires 6 weeks before release, a date which would almost certainly see features announced by.

[Cougar2010]

13 minutes ago, grade said:

The issue here it seems, that a lot of people think the promotion will end before any announcements of features are made.

Its not the promotion itself. A lot of people believe that features announcement will be released before the promotion ends. Others, believe that will not happen and they will loose the promotion, just because they want to see what new features will make to FM17.

 from my understanding from miles post this promotion is intended for the loyal fans that pre-order the game regardless of features. What I conclude is that they will not release any features before the end of the promotion. I hope that I'm wrong

I would be very surprised if that happened, I can't remember a version when no features were announced prior to the beta (which will more or less be released shortly after the promotion ends).

It would also be very poor marketing to announce nothing between now & the middle of October.

If that happens I think it will be a massive own goal from SI and questions will have to be asked about the pre-order offer.

[grade]

Its unlikely yes.

But as Miles said. The beta will be released at the latest 2 weeks before release. it can be early, from my understanding.

If it is 2 weeks before the release on the mark (and we all know this kind of development can have their delays). That means a 4 weeks gap between the release of the beta and the end of the promotion. Also it is been said that the features would be released in the days leading up to the beta release. It was said days, not weeks.

if you make the calculations, in average 4 weeks is around a month or more.

With the information provided, I'm very pessimist that features will be released before the promotion ends. But again I hope I'm wrong.

[Cougar2010]

4 minutes ago, grade said:

Its unlikely yes.

But as Miles said. The beta will be released at the latest 2 weeks before release. it can be early, from my understanding.

If it is 2 weeks before the release on the mark (and we all know this kind of development can have their delays). That means a 4 weeks gap between the release of the beta and the end of the promotion. Also it is been said that the features would be released in the days leading up to the beta release. It was said days, not weeks.

if you make the calculations, in average 4 weeks is around a month or more.

With the information provided, I'm very pessimist that features will be released before the promotion ends. But again I hope I'm wrong.

??????

Release date is 4th Nov, Beta release at the latest two weeks before that = 21st Oct.

Promotion ends 14th Oct.

By my calculations thats a max of one week between the end of the offer & the release of the beta, possibly less.

No idea where you get 4 weeks from.

[grade]

Then never mind, my bad.

The odds of the promotion and release of new beta seemed to have improve.

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

I would be very surprised if that happened, I can't remember a version when no features were announced prior to the beta (which will more or less be released shortly after the promotion ends).

It would also be very poor marketing to announce nothing between now & the middle of October.

If that happens I think it will be a massive own goal from SI and questions will have to be asked about the pre-order offer.

Irrespective of the pre order, I think people would be very unhappy with no key info by October 14th with a release date of November 4th.  I don't expect that to be the case though

[pheelf]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

Better?

Not trying to be dismissive, condescending or present an SI corporate line.  As stated above, I genuinely don't understand why some are seeing this discount and at least intimating there may be something else at play other than SI saying they're giving something back to us.  It may be away from what the OP was asking, but the point has been raised.  Just look at question 3) here and your complete agreement.

If I've misunderstood something then that's my bad, but claims of self-righteous attitudes, bizarre writing fashions, and subtle forms of censorship don't help the discussion either.  Which, at the risk of quoting out of context and paraphrasing, is actually the responsibility of everyone, not just the mods.

Anyway, I'm going back into my tactics hole.  Hopefully the OP (and others) will read Miles' post on page #2 to help them at least understand why SI have made their decision, even if they don't agree with or like it.

Dear oh dear...

How outrageous of me....posting an opinion in a public forum...what was I thinking?...

As for your point about question 3). It was a bit of throwaway question really based entirely on speculation but comes out of a natural skepticism when suddenly the price of something is reduced. SI aren't a charity and generally there is always a reason for such a change, companies don't just throw money away. 

You also state that I've claimed that there is a sense of self righteousness pervading this thread and that by mentioning it that it's not helping the discussion.

Well when you have a post which states and I quote:

"Seriously? What's there NOT to be OK with?

SI has launched a pre-order campaign, there have been no released details on new features.

SO F***ING WHAT? What is the problem??"

That doesn't strike you as being arrogant and totally dismissive of other peoples opinions.

I give up anyway....this is an entirely pointless waste of time having to defend my opinion against people who have no interest what so ever in understanding my point of view.

[KUBI]

Discounts of any kind are part of marketing strategies. Sometimes you like it, sometimes not. At the end it's the product that counts. Nobody has to pre-order it and nobody has to play it.  It's probably the same as when Bruce Springsteen announces a new tour. I will book it, when he comes to my city. Others will wait until they know, what's the line-up is. And yes, I would appreciate if I got a discount for listening to him for so many years. This discount is for fans. It's that simple.  

[danpker]

What about this tweet?

If the beta is around the 24th and the promotion ends on the 14th. Seems a bit tight ?

[KUBI]

Again, it's a promotion and discount for fans. If you think you need to play the demo before you could decide to buy the game, just wait. There will be other discounts, as usual.

[Lord Rowell]

There does seem to be a general consensus here that the pre-order deadline, and the announcement of new features, seem to be pretty tight together.

Now, I completely understand from Miles' post that some features can't yet be announced e.g. may depend on late licensing agreements.

But surely SI know, when its barely 2 months to the announced release date, so about a month and a half to beta, what a significant number of the new features will be? I find it difficult to believe that all the new features need to be held back until then. Unless this game is lacking in significant new features?

Now that said, benefit of doubt here, we've heard that new features announced in the days before beta / pre-order, people do often use the term days loosely and it may be longer than days in the literal sense, so lets hope that SI do have significant new features that they can announce in plenty of notice - I think that is a reasonable expectation, and hope this thread prompts them to address the issues that are being raised here.

[alanschu14]

14 hours ago, pheelf said:

Yes, nobody is forcing anybody to buy but it's subtle coercion. "Buy it before a certain time or lose the discount" which is a form of pressure selling which isn't ethical practice from my perspective.

Stated in a different way, a benefit for one person will always be seen as a penalty by someone else.

The reality is that if the preorder wasn't made available, it's functionally the same as if you don't preorder right now.  The crux of the matter is that people are ultimately peeved that someone else will buy this and receive a discount, but dammit that's not what someone else wants.

If your (royal your, here) preference is simply that the preorder shouldn't be made available, then what it boils down to is jealousy that a different group of people are able to receive a benefit while you are not able to take advantage without compromising some of your other concerns about feature list or whatever.  People overlook though that what they are effectively communicating is "don't make special deals unless they offer benefit to all people equally" which is fundamentally impossible.  Ergo, with or without realizing it, you're asking SI/Sega to never offer any deals because someone somewhere might think that the deal isn't as beneficial to them and as a result unfair and one that shouldn't be made available due to said unfairness.  Of course, we all make exceptions to this for deals that DO benefit us (regardless of whether or not others agree with the benefit).

 

2 hours ago, KUBI said:

Again, it's a promotion and discount for fans. If you think you need to play the demo before you could decide to buy the game, just wait. There will be other discounts, as usual.

Then don't preorder it and fundamentally it behaves exactly the same as if this current preorder never happened.  Again, the issue here is that people are upset/jealous that others will see value and benefit here and as such that unfairness is "wrong" or whatever.

[themadsheep2001]

There is currently nothing about the pre-order (which is in its 3rd year) that stops people from having full and proper info. They can simply show some patience and wait for the info that comes out,especially as the pre order runs for so long. Even ordering once pre order has passed will not stop them getting a good deal from somewhere like greenmangaming. 

[Weller1980]

My pre order is awaiting to see if a new Match Engine is included. I can't play another version with unbalanced crossing and overrated RB.

 

[RTHerringbone]

There is always a new match engine, so you don't need to worry about that. Whether it addresses existing deficiencies is one thing, and whether it adds new quirks is another!

[RiverReveal666]

20, 10 even 5 years ago I wouldnt have minded what SI did, I would still have bought the game at launch and taken up any pre order incentive on offer. In my opinion (and its just that) FM has barely moved forward. back of the box features have left me wanting, while the subtle yearly changes dont for me warrant a full price release. I feel the match engine is the only part of the game that has moved forward, while the off the pitch part of the FM world when playing as a top club is more like a quaint throwback to the 90s rather than an actual reflection of what fooball has become in the last 15 years. A FM release has become more about features like create a club and fantasy draft and less about the football i watch and read about everyday.

Doing timed pre order incentives without actually stating whats new until the timed period is over is (for me) quite an apt snapshot of the direction SI has taken the series. If the demo is good I would happily pay full price, hell I'd pay £100s! If its meh again then I will just wait for the inevitable 66-75% price drops that follow.

 

[santy001]

Some of the "features" people are waiting for, it's always a bit of a confusing one because firstly - we all know the score of what the features of a football manager game are and what they can be. Sure you can want specific details of how in depth it goes, but its an ever iterative process - sometimes a feature may take 2 or 3 years to develop fully before its in the game and usually the foundations for that eventual specific detail are built upon each year.

As great as SI's testing team is no game in the history of games ever gets the volume of testing it gets in the first week of launch. So wanting to know details about how effective crossing is and such its mostly something you're going to have to find out for yourself because no one else is going to play the game like you are. What ultimately happens is that players gravitate towards fairly similar play styles on each FM and tend to end up getting a similar experience which is far less likely in testing as its less likely testers are sharing tactics and insights much the same way the player base does. The crossing and fullback issues are a perfect example because I certainly have known how to bring about those issues, and I have used it to my advantage in network games - but in my solo career efforts it was a complete non-entity because I build teams that negate it both offensively and defensively.

Take this comment for the light-hearted intended nature behind it, but at least you guys get to pick whether you buy and subsequently play FM17 or not! SI force* a free copy on us researchers to keep us addicted, FM addled and keep us working on the data. 

* I think you can say no, but I don't think SI have a response for that answer due to it probably never having been used.

[HUNT3R]

Jeez. 4 pages.

 

SI basically said it's too early to give us nailed down features, but in the meantime here's 20% off for those who were pre-ordering anyway. I cannot see why some are offended by this.

As usual there will be improvements to the ME. Hell, SI even said that they have already made huge strides forward regarding defending of crosses way back in the feedback thread, so you know it's coming. The transfer AI etc will all get improved, as it does every year.

[Guest]

I'm struggling to understand why some people are so upset, this is a pretty simple concept to grasp. Purchase the game on or after release & pay the normal price, buy the game before release & have a history of buying previous releases then get a discount, it's not confusing, unethical or unheard of ground-breaking sales & marketing

The paragraph perfectly shows the disconnect that some people have git sucked into. of course it's important to know what you're buying yet somehow the pre-purchase discount is being viewed as SI forcing people to buy the game without know what it's like (we'll ignore that we actually all know the core aspect of FM17 wil be tactics, matches & transfers just like every other FM)  when it's actually a thank-you for buying sight unseen.

21 hours ago, pheelf said:

Which is your opinion that's as valid as anybody else and is not a problem. The issue I have is when somebody presents a contrary opinion and it's roundly dismissed when all they have done is give their answer to the question posed. What's so controversial about stating that you'd like to see what a game is likely to contain before purchasing it?

 

[treble_yell_:-)]

This thread is now just Moderators talking amongst themselves telling everyone how they should feel.

[Lord Rowell]

3 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

This thread is now just Moderators talking amongst themselves telling everyone how they should feel.

I actually had a little hope for a while that this had slowed down. However based on today's evidence...

[Pingdinho]

22 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

This thread is now just Moderators talking amongst themselves telling everyone how they should feel.

To be fair, you could just as easily characterise those that are not ok with the preorder as telling people how they should feel.

At least the mods are trying to give reasons for why they are ok with the preorder. The problem is this whole debate is so lacking in substance that it has long been exhausted and it's just going round and round and we're all getting cheesed off with each other.

[michael]

2 hours ago, Barside said:

I'm struggling to understand why some people are so upset, this is a pretty simple concept to grasp. Purchase the game on or after release & pay the normal price, buy the game before release & have a history of buying previous releases then get a discount, it's not confusing, unethical or unheard of ground-breaking sales & marketing

The paragraph perfectly shows the disconnect that some people have git sucked into. of course it's important to know what you're buying yet somehow the pre-purchase discount is being viewed as SI forcing people to buy the game without know what it's like (we'll ignore that we actually all know the core aspect of FM17 wil be tactics, matches & transfers just like every other FM)  when it's actually a thank-you for buying sight unseen.

 

 

Agreed. I cannot belive that bandwidth is still being wasted over people moaning that they have a chance to get a discount. Do these people go to the cinema and say " i'm not paying until i've watched the film and know that i like it"