England - Euro 2016 Thread

[DeafParrot]

He only wrote that article because Sterling is black?

[Anti Spiral]

Sterling wasn't good against Iceland, but he was much better that most of the team on the night. One of only a few players who looked remotely bothered.

[Vynal Seven]

Last week I would have scoffed at even a remote suggestion that Sterling criticism is anything to do with being black as opposed to just playing really, really terribly but now with this country I just don't know.

[Bootador]

He only wrote that article because Sterling is black?

No this is the Liverpool old boy argument (the wage counter which has appeared on multiple article, google "His future earnings since you landed on this page site:telegraph.co.uk" and you'll find most apart from the most recent ones which City have forced The Telegraph to remove).

The black argument is a more sketchy one based on the lack of criticism players like Kane get while players like Sterling & Sturridge get in the neck rather easily..

[Weezer]

It's a bit lame but not really offensive. I'm guessing they did it because never has a British player been so unworthy of such a ridiculously high transfer fee and massive salary.

[ajw10]

He only wrote that article because Sterling is black?

There's a history of the press picking on black players.

There's also a history of FSG using the press to badmouth any player that has left one of their sporting franchises.

Obviously though the stuff about Sterling earning loads, having 9 kids and being a greedy money grabber with little to no ability has nothing to do with either of those things

[ajw10]

It's a bit lame but not really offensive. I'm guessing they did it because never has a British player been so unworthy of such a ridiculously high transfer fee and massive salary.

You're acting as if the Andy Carroll transfer never happened.

No this is the Liverpool old boy argument (the wage counter which has appeared on multiple article, google "His future earnings since you landed on this page site:telegraph.co.uk" and you'll find most apart from the most recent ones which City have forced The Telegraph to remove).

The black argument is a more sketchy one based on the lack of criticism players like Kane get while players like Sterling & Sturridge get in the neck rather easily..

All you have to do is look at the way the press treat Yaya Toure compared to how they treated Berbatov

[Weezer]

Sterling was £15 million more than Carroll, that's quite a significant amount.

But yeah, I had forgotten about Andy Carroll

[Baptista_8]

Berbatov > Toure though.

I do feel sorry for Sterling now. He needs some time out of the spotlight.

[pearcey_90]

Christ, the state of you two. The kid had a bad tournament, a terrible season and shouldn't have been anywhere near the squad, **** knows what this has done to his obviously brittle confidence.

A terrible season?

If that's a terrible season then what was Silvas, Navas, Nasri, Yayas etc?

Hyperbole saying he shouldn't have been anywhere near the squad. Actually embarrassing some of the stuff levelled at Sterling. Not his fault the team whenever he played offered **** all movement so he didn't have no one to pass to apart from rose. He's been great at Man City dropping off playing quick one twos and getting beyond a defence (this is when his finishing ability lets him down). For England he can't do this as no ****ing midfielder would move towards him to give this option, so he was left with having to at times beat two men and he's no Messi/Robben who are great at that.

Whilst Sterling hate is hyperbole, the Rashford was better is more. Deserves no criticism but let's not forget one of his 'takes on' counts as running past someone and leaving the ball behind as he continues running ffs

[Bootador]

As long as he does 17 a game though

[Hom3r]

People seem to find it weird that the one natural(ish) wide player in the squad who is the only person to try and people on loses the ball more than Rooney who just smashes it 30 yards to a full back and Lallana passing it to the man next to him all game. Although I saw a stat that Alli lost the ball more than any player at the tournament and his criticism has been pretty quiet.

Sure Rashford looked encouraging off the bench a couple of times, but lets see how he deals with the spotlight in a couple of years and some bad runs of form. Remember Sterling and Barkley were seen the same as Rashford at his age.

Again, for this terrible season he got 11 goals all comps from out wide... It really shows how short peoples memories are that they can only remember the games at the end of the season when he was coming back from injury.

[Heartwork]

Berbatov > Toure though.

I do feel sorry for Sterling now. He needs some time out of the spotlight.

Pretty much what I said. Take him out of the next couple of England squads and tell him to keep his head down, concentrate on his football and getting his confidence back at club level. Kane needs a kick up the arse because that was the worst overall tournament performance I've seen from a single England player in a long time. There are some strikers who are brilliant at club level but can't bring it at international level, like Andy Cole. Starting to think Kane might be one of those. Although we'll see how he fits into the new manager's system.

[grff]

Whilst Sterling hate is hyperbole, the Rashford was better is more. Deserves no criticism but let's not forget one of his 'takes on' counts as running past someone and leaving the ball behind as he continues running ffs

And yet Rashford dribbled past more players than any other player, despite 4mins of game time. Let's face it, Sterling is in the team for his dribbling skills especially as his creativity, passing and shooting isn't the best. I do admit having him on the left wing with no left foot does him no favours at times.

I thought Sterling was pretty mediocre last night which was a stand out performance seeing as his team mates were dreadful in comparison.

[ajw10]

http://thesetpieces.com/features/trying-break-raheem-sterling/

All the major journalists seem to be backing Rooney to stay in the side. I wonder who the senior player was.

[VamPook]

Cmon, Rashford comes on as FRESH LEGS AFTER 85 MINS, Iceland players had been busting a gut for 85 minutes, I think being out sprinted slightly by an 18 year old is hardly surprising.

[Icelander83]

Cmon, Rashford comes on as FRESH LEGS AFTER 85 MINS, Iceland players had been busting a gut for 85 minutes, I think being out sprinted slightly by an 18 year old is hardly surprising.

Our right back is also rapid as ****, it's the biggest reason he's a professional footballer, never mind in the national team. I wouldn't fancy Sterling to beat him in a foot race, especially if he's dribbling a ball in the mean time. 85 minutes later? I'd certainly fancy Rashford to win that foot race

[scott MUFC]

and bringing on a striker when 2-1 down on 85 minutes is just freaking dumb, 20 minutes too late

[VamPook]

[Razzler]

It's a tournament exit if we're not comparing salaries to doctors, nurses and soliders

[Wiggins Top Boys]

personally i think Jamie Carragher nails quite a lot of the issues in his Daily Mail article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-3664847/JAMIE-CARRAGHER-S-DAMNING-VERDICT-English-players-weak-think-making-men-creating-babies.html

[Smiley Dan]

Some fair points but it's not really very constructive.

[pearcey_90]

Good read and agree the players are pampered too much early doors and quite a few may not actually like football.

Only part disagree with is Klinsmann.

[B-Real]

personally i think Jamie Carragher nails quite a lot of the issues in his Daily Mail article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-3664847/JAMIE-CARRAGHER-S-DAMNING-VERDICT-English-players-weak-think-making-men-creating-babies.html

I've read that argument quite a few times the past years in the Dutch media about young Dutch players - especially affter their previous campaign - and also about a lot of Anderlecht youth players after they lost the title last year. I don't think it's an English thing rather than a worldwide phenomenon. I think it's more about a generation gap, where a lot of older players see how much has changed in comparison to when they were young.

There are a lot more arrangements concerning training and school, the facilities have changed immensely, and there are constantly agents hanging around the training fields offering better deals.

Also until 10-15 years back you could score 50 goals for the reserve side and play a succesful youth tournament and only a handful of people would know. Now the same players would be world famous before they even make their debut in the first team. Online and social media don't make it very easy for them either.

But again, you could argue in English football there is just more of it. More attention from tabloids and more money. But personally I have my doubts that it's an English issue and the direct cause of their early exit.

I mean German, French and Spanish youngsters have the same obstacles and they seem to be doing relatively alright?

[Wiggins Top Boys]

It's definitely not constructive but he's being paid by the daily mail to write about the england team so it was never going to be.

And for sure and it's just a few of many issues, not the definitive direct reason by itself but he still nails it nonetheless, the thing that he fails to mention which inflates the problem in England over anywhere else is the Premier League factor, the money, the self importance, the lack of English players coming through meaning that when one does come through they are overhyped and the protection he was speaking of goes into overdrive and makes everything worse.

but then Carragher is paid by sky to analyse the premier league so...

[Weezer]

Also these English players in the Premier League are playing alongside the likes of Aguero, Mahrez, Ozil, Lloris, Eriksen, Silva etc. Of course they're going to look better players for their club teams. Sturridge and Sterling don't have Luis Suarez to fall back on any more.

[Razzler]

We certainly don't have many players in creative roles at club level but nevermind, foreign players isn't an issue or anything. No need to change anything, let's do everything the same as we've always done it

[forameuss]

The solution, probably, is the same solution that Scotland should and ultimately won't go for. It needs a German style commitment to completely overhauling the game. They saw their team go out at a group stage and calmly (well, probably not calmly) admitted that something had to change. So they put into action a plan that would take years and years to come to fruition. A decade in fact, as ten years after going out of the group stage of Euro 2004, they won the World Cup in 2014. They had a plan and they saw it through.

But can anyone really see England doing that kind of thing and sticking to it? Too much pressure, too much criticism, and a couple of years into it when, oh my God, they failed AGAIN, they would quietly go back to normal. If they really want to realise the potential that there is in the country, then it's going to take some hard times. They don't have the stomach for it.

[Vynal Seven]

The solution, probably, is the same solution that Scotland should and ultimately won't go for. It needs a German style commitment to completely overhauling the game. They saw their team go out at a group stage and calmly (well, probably not calmly) admitted that something had to change. So they put into action a plan that would take years and years to come to fruition. A decade in fact, as ten years after going out of the group stage of Euro 2004, they won the World Cup in 2014. They had a plan and they saw it through.

But can anyone really see England doing that kind of thing and sticking to it? Too much pressure, too much criticism, and a couple of years into it when, oh my God, they failed AGAIN, they would quietly go back to normal. If they really want to realise the potential that there is in the country, then it's going to take some hard times. They don't have the stomach for it.

Haven't we already done that? It why we're going to win the 2022 World Cup iirc.

[Smiley Dan]

Here "history" means since the war (God, I just mentioned it!):

Germany have a history of long term investment, doing things right and organisations driven by practitioners.

The UK has a history of short termism, "value" oriented approach with organisations driven by bean counters.

Guess who has the healthy, diverse product driven economy. And the winning football team.

[Razzler]

It needs a German style commitment to completely overhauling the game. They saw their team go out at a group stage and calmly (well, probably not calmly) admitted that something had to change. So they put into action a plan that would take years and years to come to fruition. A decade in fact, as ten years after going out of the group stage of Euro 2004, they won the World Cup in 2014. They had a plan and they saw it through.

Difference being German could do this.

For the FA to do something similar they have to go cap in hand to the Premier League clubs. Have a fantastic plan with more opportuities for young players, etc etc and then who will implement this plan? German FA can get clubs to cooperate a lot easier as they wield some authority, the FA are toothless in the face of premier league clubs, they cannot dictate to them, they're running their own show

[forameuss]

Haven't we already done that? It why we're going to win the 2022 World Cup iirc.

Was that really a plan though, or just them saying "no changes, but we'll win in 2022"?

Difference being German could do this.

For the FA to do something similar they have to go cap in hand to the Premier League clubs. Have a fantastic plan with more opportuities for young players, etc etc and then who will implement this plan? German FA can get clubs to cooperate a lot easier as they wield some authority, the FA are toothless in the face of premier league clubs, they cannot dictate to them, they're running their own show

England could do that too. It's not that they couldn't, it's that they won't. But agree otherwise, the horse has effectively bolted.

[Weezer]

Club football is far too important in this country. Most England fans would be strongly against any proposals that could possibly impact there club negatively in order to help out the national team anyway. They might all be calling for more opportunities for young English players now but wait until they find out their beloved Chelsea couldn't pick a team of international superstars because they were obligated to include a set number of Englishmen.

It's funny how immigration is a massive issue for some British people until they find out their club wants to sign the next Ecuadorian wonderkid

[sc91]

Club football is far too important in this country. Most England fans would be strongly against any proposals that could possibly impact there club negatively in order to help out the national team anyway. They might all be calling for more opportunities for young English players now but wait until they find out their beloved Chelsea couldn't pick a team of international superstars because they were obligated to include a set number of Englishmen.

It's funny how immigration is a massive issue for some British people until they find out their club wants to sign the next Ecuadorian wonderkid

I'd agree for the top 6-7 clubs in the country (mainly those competing in European competition) but for the rest of us I'd say that there would be support for measures to aide the national team.

[Wiggins Top Boys]

Difference being German could do this.

For the FA to do something similar they have to go cap in hand to the Premier League clubs. Have a fantastic plan with more opportuities for young players, etc etc and then who will implement this plan? German FA can get clubs to cooperate a lot easier as they wield some authority, the FA are toothless in the face of premier league clubs, they cannot dictate to them, they're running their own show

as with many of the other problems being discussed, nearly everything boils down to this

[grff]

I also think a factor could be that whilst other countries tend to have players that will go abroad and ply their trade, it's almost non-existent to have an English player move to a foreign club in their prime.

Yes, the Premier League is of an high standard but that's because of overseas players. English players on the fringes of first team football would rather drop down to the Championship and therefore a lower level standard than take a chance on playing abroad.

[Weezer]

Because most of them can still earn more money in the Championship than they can in top European leagues.

[heddy]

He seemed a bit upset hehe

[Razzler]

England could do that too. It's not that they couldn't, it's that they won't. But agree otherwise, the horse has effectively bolted.

Well, they couldn't really put it into action without the aid of the clubs. They can't come and make sweeping changes. The Premier League is such a global juggernaught that is all about profit and not about youth or the English national side (despite this being one of the reasons for a premier league when they broke away, aid the national side)

Everyone is so busy slapping themselves on the back about this marketing behemoth that has been created and 40m for that guy, 50m for that guy (not that clubs actually build teams, as evidenced by CL performances in recent seasons) and hey, let's look at that richest clubs list and see how many English sides are on it that no one has taken any interest in what it's all for

There will be English players at clubs, of course and no doubt we can always put out a half decent XI (on paper) but there is no depth cause there's so few players there. They're expensive cause there's so few of them and there is no reason for big clubs to give a damn about bringing youth through. The fact there has been discussions about incentivising clubs to play youth is utterly ridiculous

It's not our league anymore for our benefit, it's for the world to watch and any rich bloke to make money from as he sees fit. National side is of no concern and we created this.

We have to decide what we want, super big time league watched around the world (full of middling overseas players that are cheaper btw as well as some top stars) or a better national side cause there is no way we're getting both and by handing premier league the running of the league the FA pretty much decided what they wanted, football run for the sake of the clubs and the profits

We can't fill those middling spots with homegrown players now cause of the policy of the last decade or two. Work needs to start now and we may see some benefit down the line. Young players, waaaaaaaay more coaches and and so on but it's a catch-22 with clubs buying from midtable France or Germany, South American, etc rather than Championship or Lower or investing in youth

Wenger being manager isn't going to change a thing. Root & Branch examination number 26 coming up drawing the same conclusions followed by the same inaction and then some transfer window activity happens and and the media jumps up and down and gets excited again

Go out a tournament and 'not enough English players' etc but when someone buys someone from Spain or Germany that media forgets all about that and gets excited like it's a new wonderous toy "how will he do" - "where will he play" "will he adapt" etc. Transfer windows are now won and lost, 'who won the window' as fans get excited about which far flung players will be arriving and which 2 out of 6 might be not bad to good, if only there were homegrown players that could be merely good

I mean, forget the lack of English players and go through some premier league squads and see which ones are actually really a talent of note. Failure to address this 10, 15 years ago is why nothing has changed since, still the same issues and no one wants to address the premier league sized elephant in the room

[Wiggins Top Boys]

I was going to use the exact same phrase in my last post

Premier league sized elephant in the room

Don't worry lads. B teams in league three will save us!

[craigcwwe]

Whilst the FA and the PL are on different wavelengths then not much will change sadly, they are not going to join forces for the betterment of the national side so really the FA are facing a losing battle. As a nation we are always going to be producing good to very good players, one of the issues we have is that we don't produce enough of them. And then when a Kane, Alli or Sterling come along at 18/19/20 the media and fans big them up and then knock them down, big them up and then knock them down again. Then it's this or that player is going to win us the WC or the Euro's.

Most PL clubs would rather go out and splash £10-15m on some mid tier Spanish/German/French player instead of giving promising English players the chance.

Pochettino is a coach that has given many current England players their chance at both Southampton and Spurs, where would Harry Kane be now if Spurs had appointed a different manager that looked straight at the foreign transfer market for a striker instead of looking into your own clubs youth team? I very much doubt Kane would be playing for England that's for sure. And it's not just Kane either, Shaw, Bertrand, Clyne, Alli, players given a platform to perform by Pochettino. Granted not all of them were already at the club etc but he saw their talent and gave them a chance. Not enough manager's do this because quite frankly they don't want to take a risk on an unproven youngster, they'd rather blow £10-15m+ on a proven foreign player. All the while the talent pool for the English national team manager is decreasing.

More needs to be done on the PL's end to ensure the future of English football on the international stage, make it so teams have to field 2-3 English player's in their starting line ups would be a good place to start.

[outlander]

Do people really suggest that limit on foreign players will improve te qulity of local players?

That's the stupidity level of Russian sport authorities.

Of course, the players quality gets worse because of such limits, the Russian national teams start to perform worse, so what? Correct, they propose even heavier limits as the young generation needs further aid to get better and give a boost to the national team. And it results in even worse quality.

Would be a proper laugh if England goes the same route.

[forameuss]

Do people really suggest that limit on foreign players will improve te qulity of local players?

That's the stupidity level of Russian sport authorities.

Of course, the players quality gets worse because of such limits, the Russian national teams start to perform worse, so what? Correct, they propose even heavier limits as the young generation needs further aid to get better and give a boost to the national team. And it results in even worse quality.

Would be a proper laugh if England goes the same route.

If there's a limit on foreign players, then that means there's more spaces in the squad for home-grown players. Perhaps a talented 19 yo player who would usually have played in the U20s now gets a shot in the first time, and improves far more than he would have had there been a foreign player in front of him.

It's easy to see situations where a foreign player limit would work, without it being a magic bullet.

[bestbrother]

I think an issue is, not just that we import players, but why do English players rarely go abroad, to top tier teams and develop their game?

Is it because they (the players) get too much here to bother?

Or is it because our players are not seen good enough to play in 'x' league?

Go back to our 86 and 90 World Cup squads and we had players that tried their hand abroad, varying success, but they did it and a few players on the back of that carried it on. 2 of our best World Cup efforts since 66.

[forameuss]

I think an issue is, not just that we import players, but why do English players rarely go abroad, to top tier teams and develop their game?

Is it because they (the players) get too much here to bother?

Or is it because our players are not seen good enough to play in 'x' league?

Go back to our 86 and 90 World Cup squads and we had players that tried their hand abroad, varying success, but they did it and a few players on the back of that carried it on. 2 of our best World Cup efforts since 66.

I think it's the bolded part. It's not as if English players are **** - there's plenty good enough to go to leagues around the world and be successful. Unlikely they're going to go and play at Barcelona/Real Madrid/Bayern, but nothing wrong with one going to a German side challenging for a Champions League spot or similar elsewhere.

You could point to the culture part, making a lazy stereotype about English players being too thick and anglicised that they can't settle elsewhere, but I'm not convinced.

Put simply, why would the most talented English players want to leave? You've got clubs here paying ridiculous amounts to your club, and even more ridiculous amounts to you to tempt you, just because you're English and they need home-grown players. Why would you go anywhere else? I imagine it trickles down too with players are less attractive players getting better contracts simply because they're at a club in the richest league in the world.

It's probably a number of factors, but money is a big, big one,

[Weezer]

I think it's the bolded part. It's not as if English players are **** - there's plenty good enough to go to leagues around the world and be successful. Unlikely they're going to go and play at Barcelona/Real Madrid/Bayern, but nothing wrong with one going to a German side challenging for a Champions League spot or similar elsewhere.

Thing is unless they end up at teams like Barcelona/Madrid/Bayern they can earn more money staying on the bench here. They could even earn more money in the Championship than most Bundesliga/Serie /Ligue 1 sides could afford.

You've also got players that have multiple caps and been reasonably successful at England youth levels like Lewis Baker and Nathaniel Chalobah that are already multiple millionaires without ever playing a Premier League game.

edit: a quick Google says Chalobah has actually managed 4 Prem games on loan for Burnley, but only 65 minutes game time in total, 2 years ago.

[aiston]

https://streamable.com/amm8

Can't believe the media missed that. Rooney lucky not to get sent off.

[aiston]

Kane's highlights from the Iceland game.

https://streamable.com/d6oy

[Carmi88]

https://streamable.com/amm8

Can't believe the media missed that. Rooney lucky not to get sent off.

failing to control himself and lacking leadership qualities!? not possible!

[outlander]

If there's a limit on foreign players, then that means there's more spaces in the squad for home-grown players. Perhaps a talented 19 yo player who would usually have played in the U20s now gets a shot in the first time, and improves far more than he would have had there been a foreign player in front of him.

It's easy to see situations where a foreign player limit would work, without it being a magic bullet.

That's not how it works though. Take a look at some examples who have such limits. You are right. A player at 19 who is local get the place in the starting team. He gets huge money. What is the incentive for him to improve. To earn 2 times more he will need huge amount of work and dedication. Is it worth it? The reality is that it's not.

I gave you an example of Russia. There were so many young superstars in the last year, yet basically noone had any serious further development. Looks at Dzagoev or Kokorin. Especially, the latter. He is talented and if he does nothing to improve himself he still gets big payouts from transfer every few years. He had to improve massively to have a further step in the career which is not worth it with the limits in place, as his position of strength is not going to change.

Or look at Arshavin. He was a great player who developed quite a bit, yet he had to have a pay cut I think just to move to the top level football. Player who were worse than him had the same pay level in Russia and they had no reason to improve.

That's what happens with the foreign player limits. You will see more ENglish players in the squads obviously. You will see more younger players. You won't see more top class player, that would the opposite.