Licensing - Clamp Down On Graphics

[Saint_Lane]

News starting to spread of a clamp down on 3rd party sites hosting graphics and picture packs for Football Manager. 

FM Scout:

"We feel obliged to our community to announce that due to licensing reasons we had to take down all graphical addons containing official club logos and player faces. These graphics are trademarked and/or copyrighted material owned by their respective trademark and copyright holders."

FM Base:

"In the last few days, you may have seen speculation surrounding the future of graphics packs for Football Manager on social media and other fansites. This is due to licensing issues, with legal action being threatened upon graphics creators using trademarked material in their work. This issue is one that has impacted not only graphics creators and fansites but the entire community, as shown by the action taken by 2game in stopping all affiliate partnerships involving Football Manager."

There has been no comment from sortitoutsi.net.

 

Whilst there seems to be little room for debating the legitimacy of these claims, the hosting and distributing of Logo's / Player Faces & 'License Fix Downloads' are clearly breaches of Trademark against the copyright holders. It would be very sad, and i believe extremely damaging to the Football Manager series if these features were not available. I personally would not enjoy the game half as much without the availability of these graphic packs and License fixes (Such As German National Team, proper competition names etc.).

I believe the team at SEGA would come under a lot more pressure to implement and purchase rights for the major teams & leagues if these features were not readily available from the community. The team at Football Manager have been extremely lucky that the community have provided a solution to this in recent years. They've saved a great deal of resources not having to invest in acquiring the licenses whilst still reaping the benefits of having a game that so readily supports users being able to implement the graphical / licence fixes very easily themselves.

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Saint_Lane

[Tyburn]

I wouldn’t play this game, that has been with me for literally half of my life, if I couldn’t mod it with graphics anymore.

I’m interested to know what the actual issue is with licensing. Is it purely the hosting of these images that is the problem? Seems bonkers as everything is readily available individually from the internet anyway, and no one is making any money from it.

SI would have had to have changed the fundamentals of the game structure, with id’s etc if this was a problem. Which they haven’t. So I’m a little confused. 

[VP.]

Obviously cannot say much but at the moment it isn't quite as bad as it may seem.

[Saint_Lane]

6 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

I wouldn’t play this game, that has been with me for literally half of my life, if I couldn’t mod it with graphics anymore.

I’m interested to know what the actual issue is with licensing. Is it purely the hosting of these images that is the problem? Seems bonkers as everything is readily available individually from the internet anyway, and no one is making any money from it.

SI would have had to have changed the fundamentals of the game structure, with id’s etc if this was a problem. Which they haven’t. So I’m a little confused. 

I agree. I think the game would lose all appeal to me if graphical mods could no longer be applied to game. 

So the issue with licencing is relatively clear. Only the Trademark owners have legal rights to use and distribute the property they own. Any website or user that uploads Graphics intended for distribution is in breach of  Copyright Law.  With regards "No one is making money from it" - Well we've both just said we wouldn't buy the game without the graphical packs. So SI are certainly benefiting from it & Sortitoutsi.net charge a subscription that allows users to more easily download their graphic packs. 

And I agree on your last point. SI could well come under increasing pressure to change the background working of the game to prevent users so easily implementing the graphics & licencing adjustments.  I am not an expert here mind, so others could maybe shed more light on how that could work.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Saint_Lane

[Tyburn]

I see. It’s the distribution of the images that’s the problem. Although disappointing, especially for new players, it’s not actually the end.

As long as SI aren’t forced to change the layout and id’s it’s going to be ok.

Distributing code and techniques I don’t think contravenes any laws. People would just have to hunt down their own images. Painful granted.

The licensing fix though is an interesting one. Not sure how that works tbh.

Edited November 10, 2019 by sidslayer

[Viking]

Rumors... But yeah, without proper logos and league names I would probably shelve FM.

[Saint_Lane]

21 minutes ago, SortitoutsiVP said:

Obviously cannot say much but at the moment it isn't quite as bad as it may seem.

...Really hope your are right SoritoutsiVP

[kevhamster]

31 minutes ago, SortitoutsiVP said:

Obviously cannot say much but at the moment it isn't quite as bad as it may seem.

This sounds encouraging. Having the custom graphics really helps the immersion so the hard work that goes into these packs is very much appreciated! 

[Quacky]

If this is the case its another creep of the most annoying application of copyrights.

 

There simply is no legal alternative for us to have all logos in game, so what are they protecting themselves against. If anything actual logos in game will spread the teams brand.

[sporadicsmiles]

I mean, what does that even achieve? For example, I already have all the logos for clubs. You can reuse them. So if you have them this does not really affect you.

As for not being able to get hold of logos and face packs... well see how well copyrighting has worked on pirating games (which I am not condoning mods, no warnings for me please). This will not stop people getting hold of things they want. 

[tyro]

I have to say, recently these licensing trends are really starting to limit the normal people in general.

This hear is just one example, another is the distribution of movies or series not available even if you like to pay for it in certain countries. Other examples are the horrendous fees they charge to watch various leagues and the regular TV channels cannot show them anymore. I haven't seen Champions League games at all last year, simply because they are only available on paid channels at this point. I don't see all of them. I could probably pay 30€ or so a month to watch them, however, I believe that there will be less people watching it in general if it is so limited.

This is a theme going throughout all media at the moment. And it just limits the enjoyments in various areas of normal people.

It would be great if they'd implement some sort of exception to the general licensing laws for these types of games for example but they won't because it's a lot of money.

[pizzachips]

If you already have the facepacks logos etc from fm19 can we simply just add them to fm20's version or is that to simplistic?

[Tyburn]

Just now, pizzachips said:

If you already have the facepacks logos etc from fm19 can we simply just add them to fm20's version or is that to simplistic?

Yes. They can just be added.

[louissiscool]

They could just host the graphics on a third party website and leave a disclaimer saying they are merely links to the content, couldn't they?

[Saint_Lane]

1 minute ago, louissiscool said:

They could just host the graphics on a third party website and leave a disclaimer saying they are merely links to the content, couldn't they?

With my  limited knowledge   ...That would not be adequate to avoid claims of infringement. 

[Team Woopie]

What I’m not sure about is how fm scout have been able to continue hosting a couple of large graphic packs if they’ve been threatened? They’ve removed a load but have kept for example the massive DF11 mega face pack

[RBKalle]

Ah screw them greedy clubs/players...

It's clear what they're trying to do... If they can't stop random people from creating and distributing a bunch of copyrighted, but widely used, images on non-commercial material, they'll lobby with Sega/SI in order to make the old graphical add-ons unusable from FM21 onwards (or already in FM20 with a patch?) and force the devs to make the game as "unmoddable" as possible, in order to sell them an expensive official license.

Hopefully, "some people" on the net will find a way (they usually always do), but it'll be more complicated, inconvenient for us end-users. Which is a shame and a disgrace. Nobody's making money with that kind of harmless copyright-override. At worst already filthy rich clubs and organizations are losing what to them is chump change by not extorting some money from SEGA for the EPL official license.

And well, without graphical patches, FM would lose a lot of appeal.

Let's hope they'll realize it'd be a PR own goal for little monetary gain,

BTW, is it known who started this madness?

Edited November 10, 2019 by RBKalle

[cel1234]

What is crack is you have permission from teams ?? Obviously not on about big teams but lower leagues.

Edited November 10, 2019 by cel1234

[Gross_Ballon]

I would 100% give up playing football manager if I had to play it with no facepacks or graphics! would 100% walk away after 17 years ! or I would make my own or like bootleg whiskey in the 30s I would find a way to rebel against the scum ! imagine this game with ZEBRA ! and no facepacks lol (Puke) 

[louissiscool]

Did anyone else not think the writing was on the wall for this with the arsenal edition?

[Kostas98]

For them to release 'special editions' when they knew that those packs exist shows that this had a sizeable probability to happen.And apparently it did.But I don't know if SI can do anything about it or where this comes from (either Sega or some teams).I mean if it continues is there a legal issue for them since they are not the ones that are distributing the copyrighted material?They could just ignore it and let the packs be distributed via torrents or something.

[Stamatis]

Is it really OK to keep packs with copyrighted material - free for all and not hosted in-house - and wait for copyright claims to fly in? 

Is it possible for copyright holder to start legal proceedings without giving a cease and desist warning? 

Is it enough to add a disclaimer saying the site is not responsible for the content of external links shared? And possibly have a DMCA notice as well? 

Do you know if there is a safe way to continue advertising (not hosting nor producing) such packs? 

[Brasilia88]

As a person who lives in Brazil, the game is not available for THIS very reason. The clubs and players are all unavailable. Therefore, they all get acronyms and fake names. The mods that are available fix the issues and make the Brazilian leagues playable.  

 

[Tony Wright 747]

Wonder if this is another reason why stadiums have not been made modable.  If this escalates it could be the death knell for the franchise.

[Harrison Bored]

1 hour ago, louissiscool said:

Did anyone else not think the writing was on the wall for this with the arsenal edition?

Been a long time of wall writing given they did an Arsenal edition with FM11 - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Football-Manager-2011-Arsenal-Edition/dp/B0071AZO1C

[janrzm]

2 hours ago, louissiscool said:

Did anyone else not think the writing was on the wall for this with the arsenal edition?

I thought the exact opposite to be honest.  

28 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Wonder if this is another reason why stadiums have not been made modable.  If this escalates it could be the death knell for the franchise.

I think the issue behind stadiums is something else. For years we've managed to use player faces, kits and logos. Makes absolutely no sense to me that somehow the use of a stadium likeness would be more offensive to clubs than using the elements I've mentioned.

On a personal level, if these modding elements weren't available I would simply stop playing and make better use of my spare time......

In reality, I don't see how they could possibly police this. You can find anything you want online if you want to go down that route, software, films etc. Personally I'd prefer a licenced solution, if I can play millions of songs on Apple Music for the 6 people in my household at $20 a month then there simply has to be a way of addressing this. 

I would also love to know who or what clubs are behind this move because I see it as a PR disaster in the making for a club, player, management company, sporting body etc.

Edited November 10, 2019 by janrzm

[Roy Race 9]

3 hours ago, RBKalle said:

Ah screw them greedy clubs/players...

It's clear what they're trying to do... If they can't stop random people from creating and distributing a bunch of copyrighted, but widely used, images on non-commercial material, they'll lobby with Sega/SI in order to make the old graphical add-ons unusable from FM21 onwards (or already in FM20 with a patch?) and force the devs to make the game as "unmoddable" as possible, in order to sell them an expensive official license.

Hopefully, "some people" on the net will find a way (they usually always do), but it'll be more complicated, inconvenient for us end-users. Which is a shame and a disgrace. Nobody's making money with that kind of harmless copyright-override. At worst already filthy rich clubs and organizations are losing what to them is chump change by not extorting some money from SEGA for the EPL official license.

And well, without graphical patches, FM would lose a lot of appeal.

Let's hope they'll realize it'd be a PR own goal for little monetary gain,

BTW, is it known who started this madness?

stopped these too

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/english-soccer/manchester-united-prove-spoilsports-for-panini-cheapskates-1.3808872

£££££££££££££££

Edited November 10, 2019 by Roy Race 9

[Team Woopie]

4 hours ago, Team Woopie said:

What I’m not sure about is how fm scout have been able to continue hosting a couple of large graphic packs if they’ve been threatened? They’ve removed a load but have kept for example the massive DF11 mega face pack

Just answered my own question....while the download appears to still be on the site, fm scout has actually removed the download button. 
 

Agree with others that if it becomes impossible to customise fm then I’m out (after 25 loyal years). Would be awful to not play anymore but there would be no immersion without the graphics 

[Archibalduk]

2 hours ago, Stamatis said:

Is it really OK to keep packs with copyrighted material - free for all and not hosted in-house - and wait for copyright claims to fly in? 

Is it possible for copyright holder to start legal proceedings without giving a cease and desist warning? 

Is it enough to add a disclaimer saying the site is not responsible for the content of external links shared? And possibly have a DMCA notice as well? 

Do you know if there is a safe way to continue advertising (not hosting nor producing) such packs? 

Copyright and trade mark laws are intended to stop people from "using" logos and trade marks without their permission. You cannot just add a disclaimer to your website because you're still infringing the copyright/trade mark holder's rights. In the UK the person claiming infringement would need to send a "letter before action" before bringing a claim to court (this is a requirement under the UK's Civil Procedure Rules).

The sad reality is that the only way you can comply with the law is by seeking a licence from the copyright/trade mark holder which they would obviously charge for.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Archibalduk

[janrzm]

59 minutes ago, Roy Race 9 said:

stopped these too

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/english-soccer/manchester-united-prove-spoilsports-for-panini-cheapskates-1.3808872

£££££££££££££££

To be fair I get them stopping these. As good as they are someone is making money out of it.

I see the FM modding as a little different. A chance for clubs and players to give back and be part of the wider football community. I understand some of these hosting websites are generating revenue from traffic or ads and maybe thats a conflict that needs looking at. 

Football has become so cash driven and much of that at the expense of regular fans its sickening if not predictable that someone would look at these elements and think theres another revenue stream to be exploited. 

As I've said, no logo's, no faces, no immersion, no interest. So hopefully something legit will get sorted.

[Chris21]

Quite frankly this would be a disgrace. All the hard work from people down the years for zero profit too

I'd also be in the camp of giving up the game if this happens

Edited November 10, 2019 by Chris21

[RBKalle]

21 minuti fa, janrzm ha scritto:

So hopefully something legit will get sorted.

Yes...

EA Sports FIFA Manager 2022 with 25 fully licensed leagues (minus a handful of clubs), FIFA 12's downgraded match engine and a half-assed management module.

Oh and some rehash of FUT for maximum profit

Edited November 10, 2019 by RBKalle

[seagull84]

if this were to happen in a strict manner I would end up either stuck playing with this generation of players or even worse not playing at all.

I love the game and have played since the CM days but this would be a killer.... I literally stop playing if I encounter a player with no face, a team with no logo / stadium/ kit etc... and won't continue until its sorted.

luckily (thanks to a 30gb + folder) I don't have to do this very often anymore

Edited November 10, 2019 by seagull84

[janrzm]

2 minutes ago, seagull84 said:

if this were too happen in a strict manner I would end up either stuck playing with this generation of players or even worse not playing at all.

I love the game and have played since the CM days but this would be a killer.... I literally stop playing if I encounter a player with no face, a team with no logo / stadium/ kit etc... and won't continue until its sorted.

luckily (thanks to a 30gb + folder) I don't have to do this very often anymore

I hear you.

I won't sign anyone without a face....that's after searching online and making my own cutout if I have to. 

[seagull84]

9 minutes ago, janrzm said:

I hear you.

I won't sign anyone without a face....that's after searching online and making my own cutout if I have to. 

back in the days before the big comprehensive packs I'd even been known to go searching on Myspace for the face of some random Scandinavian kid I'd signed!!

[Lenzar]

Logos, kits and player faces have been a thing since FM2005.

Why is this suddenly an issue?

[kevhamster]

35 minutes ago, Lenzar said:

Logos, kits and player faces have been a thing since FM2005.

Why is this suddenly an issue?

I would guess it's literally one or two clubs causing a stink about their trademarks being used without permission.

[forameuss]

To be honest, this seems like something that should have happened a long, long time ago.  It always seemed quite an odd situation - SI paying for a good load of licenses (and probably paying a lot) but with some missing, yet the game is coded specifically in a way to allow people to change that, and websites out there freely hosting ways of essentially rendering the licenses pointless.

Can't say it'd bother me a massive amount to be honest. I've put the real name fix on, but haven't downloaded any graphics.  I don't play the game that much these days, to be honest, doubt not having graphics would make that any better or worse.  If people really did follow through on not buying the game then expect there would only be one party suffering, and that's SI.  Not that any of this is really their fault.

11 hours ago, RBKalle said:

Yes...

EA Sports FIFA Manager 2022 with 25 fully licensed leagues (minus a handful of clubs), FIFA 12's downgraded match engine and a half-assed management module.

Oh and some rehash of FUT for maximum profit

EA are hardly immune to this either.  They lost all rights to anything related to Juventus this year, likely because the price being asked for was far too high to be worthwhile.  And that's from a company/publisher/development team that must have more money than God at this stage.

[Lenzar]

19 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Can't say it'd bother me a massive amount to be honest. I've put the real name fix on, but haven't downloaded any graphics.  I don't play the game that much these days, to be honest, doubt not having graphics would make that any better or worse.  If people really did follow through on not buying the game then expect there would only be one party suffering, and that's SI.  Not that any of this is really their fault.

 

The generic logos in the game are utterly horrible. They're worse than the PES ones, which are already pretty bad.

 

[forameuss]

5 minutes ago, Lenzar said:

The generic logos in the game are utterly horrible. They're worse than the PES ones, which are already pretty bad.

Meh.  They're basic, but they likely have to be.  I'd prefer they were basic, primary colours ones than them trying to jazz them up and them getting worse.

Although who knows, if they were forced to block off modding routes for this, maybe they'd put more effort into them (which could go either way).

[DoubleDenimSuccess]

19 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I mean, what does that even achieve? For example, I already have all the logos for clubs. You can reuse them. So if you have them this does not really affect you.

If future versions of the game have differing ID's attached to each club/competition etc it would effect, as the said already downloaded graphics would not go to the correct club/competition as per previous versions.

Here's hoping SI do not change all ID codes for each graphic for future versions.

I may be wrong but I think my above argument is right. Hoping to be proved wrong however!

[Tyburn]

As far as I can work out this is a distribution issue. The sites hosting the files with the sole purpose of distributing the images is suddenly now an issue.

Nothing wrong with what SI are doing re id’s, layout etc. Otherwise it would already have changed.

Also seems that nothing is wrong with what sortitoutsi is doing on their website. They may have to stop the “packs” but having individual images of players, for example, on the site as a reference (not packaged up for distribution) is totally fine.

Edited November 11, 2019 by sidslayer

[Bothan Spy]

I don't think it's too much to worry about. Modding has been part and parcel of gaming for years. If they tried to clamp down on it, it will just go underground.

Playing FM without graphics is like having a Christmas tree that you can't decorate with baubles and tinsel...

[autohoratio]

49 minutes ago, Lenzar said:

The generic logos in the game are utterly horrible. They're worse than the PES ones, which are already pretty bad.

 

 

43 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Meh.  They're basic, but they likely have to be.  I'd prefer they were basic, primary colours ones than them trying to jazz them up and them getting worse.

Although who knows, if they were forced to block off modding routes for this, maybe they'd put more effort into them (which could go either way).

There are ways to custom additional default logos to the game, just takes some fiddling about with the Resource Archiver and creating new logo bases with the same colour format at the current ones.

[luka_zg]

There will ALWAYS be a way to get all the graphics no matter what anyone does. Have you been living under a rock? Music, movies, apps...you name it. You can get everything for free if you want so I don't see a way they will be able to stop people get to their files one way or the other. There is always a way people.

BTW there is absolutely no way I'd play this game if I couldn't rename ZEBRE or any other fictional club name. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by luka_zg

[forameuss]

4 minutes ago, luka_ said:

There will ALWAYS be a way to get all the graphics no matter what anyone does. Have you been living under a rock? Music, movies, apps...you name it. You can get everything for free if you want so I don't see a way they will be able to stop people get to their files one way or the other. There is always a way people.

BTW there is absolutely no way I'd play this game if I couldn't rename ZEBRE or any other fictional club name. 

Until SI code specifically against it, then it becomes a lot harder.  At the moment the coding around it is basically an open, unlocked door with SI turning their backs.  File distribution isn't the issue.

[luka_zg]

Just now, forameuss said:

Until SI code specifically against it, then it becomes a lot harder.  At the moment the coding around it is basically an open, unlocked door with SI turning their backs.  File distribution isn't the issue.

And why would they do that? They are not breaking any laws and can code as they want. They are perfectly aware people will not play the game with fake names, logos and players. Because it will get to that.

[forameuss]

4 minutes ago, luka_ said:

And why would they do that? They are not breaking any laws and can code as they want. They are perfectly aware people will not play the game with fake names, logos and players. Because it will get to that.

They won't do it up until the point they're told they have to.  You could go after people hosting the files like they are, but a far more efficient way to go after these breaches in licensing would be to block off the capability.  It's easy to see a situation where the rights holders are able to put pressure on SI to change things.

It's not something they'd want to do, but then I'd imagine they'd want to just put real names, kits, logos in the game anyway, but they legally can't.  As soon as that becomes the case with the moddable aspects, anything they want to do goes out the window.

[luka_zg]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

They won't do it up until the point they're told they have to.  You could go after people hosting the files like they are, but a far more efficient way to go after these breaches in licensing would be to block off the capability.  It's easy to see a situation where the rights holders are able to put pressure on SI to change things.

It's not something they'd want to do, but then I'd imagine they'd want to just put real names, kits, logos in the game anyway, but they legally can't.  As soon as that becomes the case with the moddable aspects, anything they want to do goes out the window.

Ther is no legal way they can put pressure on the SI. So what pressure are you talking about?

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, luka_ said:

Ther is no legal way they can put pressure on the SI. So what pressure are you talking about?

Well I'm glad you took time out from your latest case to post the legal standing, but I'm still not sure that would stand up.

SI have left the game open to modding, and specifically open to modding in ways to get around licenses.  Yet such things are, naturally, not to be discussed on the forums.  As it can get people into trouble, up to and including SI.  You've already said that it's impossible to stop people from hosting the files.  The movie industry realised that pretty quickly.  Go after one source, and it's likely another several will pop up.  Or you, as the rights holder, could just go to the one place that would stop it.  Coincidentally, that source already pays you a lot of money.  

Again, it's easy to see where pressure could come.