"The future of football manager" discussion

[the_hdk]

On one hand i'm happy with progres. Women Football in FM sounds very exciting and i'm curious how that is going to work.

Finally getting some decent newgen graphics also sounds good. (really hope on AI generated real like faces like the NEWGEN mod)

What i'm a bit afraid of is that they will go the same way some other developers are going (Paradox/Firaxis) where games become more flashy...better graphics etc. but are empty inside. the gameplay is gone.

[Federico]

6 minuti fa, the_hdk ha scritto:

On one hand i'm happy with progres. Women Football in FM sounds very exciting and i'm curious how that is going to work.

Finally getting some decent newgen graphics also sounds good. (really hope on AI generated real like faces like the NEWGEN mod)

What i'm a bit afraid of is that they will go the same way some other developers are going (Paradox/Firaxis) where games become more flashy...better graphics etc. but are empty inside. the gameplay is gone.

Paradox's games are anything but empty inside I think. FM is finally going to move onward on certain aspects of the game but with a solid background from a 20 years old experience.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Federico

[anagain]

I just want to know if the new feature to export an FM23 save to FM24 will work if you run add on leagues.

Hopefully the game can just simulate without those leagues.

 

I'm sure we'll know more later.

[DarJ]

1 minute ago, anagain said:

I just want to know if the new feature to export an FM23 save to FM24 will work if you run add on leagues.

Hopefully the game can just simulate without those leagues.

 

I'm sure we'll know more later.

It probably would become if you create a save file on one computer with the extra leagues you can load that save on a different pc that doesn't have the extra leagues download 

[H_a_a_k_o_n]

Great news for us oldtimers! 

Save game compatible. Thats amazing and a holy grail i did not think i would see. My 20-year old suggestion of ingame maps could also happen then!  :-)

And great to hear a fresh new "start" with FM25. We need that every 10-20 years :-) 
 

 

[the_hdk]

42 minutes ago, Federico said:

Paradox's games are anything but empty inside I think. FM is finally going to move onward on certain aspects of the game but with a solid background from a 20 years old experience.

their last games...CK3...vicky3 have been horrible and just for flashy tik tok generation.  if fm is going to go the same way than i'm just too old for it aswell

[pizzachips]

I wish FM 25 was coming out today

Great news, thanks SI for the transparency & communication.

[grade]

22 minutes ago, the_hdk said:

their last games...CK3...vicky3 have been horrible and just for flashy tik tok generation.  if fm is going to go the same way than i'm just too old for it aswell

I think for a new game (i mean new game like Cities Skylines 1 and 2 are different games, not the refresh we were having with FM), we should go with a brand new perspective. FM25 is going to break with several legacy systems, they are starting new and adapting to the reality of market today. We who have known the games from 80's, 90's, 2000's, have evolve and we adapted to it. We have is to be open minded, that we were then and be open minded today as well. That is coming from a person that hates Facebook, thinks tik tok is waste of time (not to mention the issue with certain country have our data). :P 

[forameuss]

A refreshing display of honesty there, and a rare insight into what's being worked on.  They've alluded in the past about working on multiple versions and longer-term projects, but little more than that.  Usually you just assume that's them working on a step forward in AI, but this is further than I ever thought we'd get.  

The stuff about 24...I've covered it elsewhere, but I can't help but feel they've put a bullet in one knee of 24 before it could even start running with this kind of article, but I expect it'll still sell incredibly well even if they don't nail their promises of various marketing buzzwords.  It's hard to really imagine what kind of proper, meaty features they could put in to an "end of series" style game, so maybe this is the time to add those little ones in and properly polish what's there as a fitting send-off.  The keeping old saves...I'm in the minority, but I'm largely unmoved by it.  It's never really been a particular interest of mine, although granted that could just be simply because it's never been an option before (and never seemed like it would be).  If I end up coming to the end of 23 and have something I want to keep going, then I'll probably be glad of it, but at the moment...shrug.

As for 25...well, it all sounds very impressive.  I'm not going to immediately buy a ticket to the hype train that others have already jumped on because from what we know of SI, they have a very particular view of what their product should be.  Just because they're moving engine doesn't mean...well, anything really.  We have no idea just yet what it means for the game, but it certainly is interesting.  As for women's football, I'm a little disappointed it's being held off, but I know (and support) the reasons why they're doing that.  Introducing it for 24 would have been a massive boon for that product, but leaving it for 25 and tying it into everything that's new probably gives them a nice clean break, and would likely mean development on the feature can be truly next-gen (rather than current-gen for 24, then updated).  

As always, it's a wait and see.  SI haven't always got it right, but I think their approach is still noticeably better than a lot of more lauded developers.  

1 hour ago, anagain said:

I just want to know if the new feature to export an FM23 save to FM24 will work if you run add on leagues.

Hopefully the game can just simulate without those leagues.

 

I'm sure we'll know more later.

This sort of stuff is where you can start seeing problems potentially coming into the feature.  I think though - I could be wrong of course - that whatever database changes you make are largely "baked into" your save once you've started it, so I guess technically there shouldn't be a problem with just carrying that save over.  If you're still using the same database as you were before, then you're just really worrying about any of the new features interacting with old data correctly, and that's not a problem exclusive to edited databases.  

Probably one of the many interesting technical questions they've had to ask and work on.  I doubt they'd just go down the route of simulating without them, as that could end up causing more issues than it solves.

3 minutes ago, Renyy said:

Miles said on Twitter it should, but they probably won't offer any help to you if it doesn't because it's "not our content". Feels a bit cheap when the editor is a first party tool and whatever you create in there is no less SI's content than whatever you create in the main game. Not to mention SI does have one or two "official" downloadable leagues as well.

Just because you used their product to build it doesn't mean they should accept all responsibility for fixing it because of the monster you made.  They could be a bit more forthcoming about supporting custom editor files, but where do you draw the line?  You simply can't test every single outcome that the editor allows, and you'll burn incredible numbers of hours trying.  They'll of course support the leagues they created because...well, they created them.  They know exactly what went in, and they're relatively simple.

Edited June 29, 2023 by forameuss

[FM1000]

People need to understand that the new features for FM24 will be features that don't depend directly on the UI or Graphical engine..

So squad building, tactics, AI, transfers, training, even the ME (the ME exists even without it's graphical representation) can all be improved and carried on to FM25.

One thing I don't understand is the womans football, or the hype for it...

I mean who even watches woman football IRL?

Maybe someone does in the USA or UK but rest of the world does not care one iota.

So for me that would be a non feature.

Edited June 29, 2023 by FM1000

[Gangor]

4 minutes ago, FM1000 said:

People need to understand that the new features for FM24 will be features that don't depend directly on the UI or Graphical engine..

So squad building, tactics, AI, transfers, training, even the ME (the ME exists even without it's graphical representation) can all be improved and carried on to FM25.

One thing I don't understand is the womans football, or the hype for it...

I mean who even watches woman football IRL?

Maybe someone does in the USA or UK but rest of the world does not care one iota.

So for me that would be a non feature.

I for one don't care about the Italian leagues. Who even watches Italian football? Certainly not me or anyone I know. Remove it and save on licencing and research costs!

[Johnny Ace]

21 minutes ago, FM1000 said:

I mean who even watches woman football IRL?

The people that go to the games and watch it on TV?

[SimonHoddle]

9 hours ago, rhydymwyn said:

My first thought is: Please, please, please don't kill off 2D mode and/or put the game out of reach for people without a high-end graphics set-up. Graphics improvements are fine and dandy, but I still play in classic 2D mode. The game never looked "real" enough to bother watching, and honestly, I love the option to zip through a match using the fastest settings. Make all the improvements (and "improvements") you want, but please don't make the game inaccessible to those of us who don't bother with in-game graphics to begin with. Or maybe I'm the only one?

My second thought is: thank you for taking the time to get the women's game "right". Looking forward to lifting the Champions League trophy with Kerr & Co. at Chelsea in FM25. (Sorry, Emma, but you can take the men's team, if you'll have them.)

This shows how tough it is for SI. Your opinions are entirely valid. I beg to disagree though. Surely the most important thing about any football is the football itself! The ME and graphics have been neglected IMO and it’s about time they took a jump forward. I’m sure you’ll still be able to do instant results anyway as the match sounds like an add-on to you anyway?

[samrnpage]

Lots of people watch womens football, stop being daft

Remember, back in the early 1900s womens football was banned because it was becoming more popular than the mens game, resulting in less money for the mens game, so guess what the men did? Banned women from playing football.... 

I doubt ill have a meaningful save with a womens side, I might have a bit of a play around with it, and will probably follow the leagues on my saves, but that's about it. However my daughter is buzzing for the womens game to be added in and that is genuinely an amazing thing. Playing FM with my Son AND my Daughter. Win for me

[SimonHoddle]

31 minutes ago, FM1000 said:

People need to understand that the new features for FM24 will be features that don't depend directly on the UI or Graphical engine..

So squad building, tactics, AI, transfers, training, even the ME (the ME exists even without it's graphical representation) can all be improved and carried on to FM25.

One thing I don't understand is the womans football, or the hype for it...

I mean who even watches woman football IRL?

Maybe someone does in the USA or UK but rest of the world does not care one iota.

So for me that would be a non feature.

The rest of the world doesn’t care one iota 😂 😂 😂. And you are the voice of the remaining 7 billion outside US and UK? look at the viewing figures for the upcoming World Cup, you may be surprised!

perhaps, just a thought, just don’t play the women’s football on FM? I don’t think we’re going to be forced by SI to do that.
 

[Rashidi]

2 hours ago, the_hdk said:

On one hand i'm happy with progres. Women Football in FM sounds very exciting and i'm curious how that is going to work.

Finally getting some decent newgen graphics also sounds good. (really hope on AI generated real like faces like the NEWGEN mod)

What i'm a bit afraid of is that they will go the same way some other developers are going (Paradox/Firaxis) where games become more flashy...better graphics etc. but are empty inside. the gameplay is gone.

If you have any familiarity with the Unity engine you will realise that with the greater computational advantage coupled with the possibilities with the new user interface, it’s a great step forward.

[stockwellpete]

30 minutes ago, FM1000 said:

I mean who even watches woman football IRL?

Maybe someone does in the USA or UK but rest of the world does not care one iota.

So for me that would be a non feature.

Lots of women right across the world do for starters (eg. Philippines, Nigeria, New Zealand etc). And some men. I watched the all of the KO stages of the last women's Euros and they were really exciting matches. I am looking forward to the women's World Cup too. Football is no longer just a man's game and that is a good thing..

[Rashidi]

35 minutes ago, FM1000 said:

One thing I don't understand is the womans football, or the hype for it...

I mean who even watches woman football IRL?

Maybe someone does in the USA or UK but rest of the world does not care one iota.

So for me that would be a non feature.

You don’t have to understand it, one just needs to respect another persons point of view or decision. There are plenty of people who are looking forward to it, and there are also plenty of people who find some existing features disengaging, but that doesn’t mean the vision of the developer is wrong.

They have a vision they want realised, and it won’t make everyone happy, nothing ever does. All we can ask for is that it’s the best work they can put out. FM23 had some great features and some very forgettable misses, each year they try and improve and get better. And that’s all I can really ask for. 

[Rashidi]

I for one am very excited about the Unity engine. It will be a new programming language, allowing for more computational complexity. What I really like is the potential for machine learning. It’s an engine that can be coded to learn and adapt to human decisions.

[grade]

11 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

If you have any familiarity with the Unity engine you will realise that with the greater computational advantage coupled with the possibilities with the new user interface, it’s a great step forward.

The question, how much a leap will be minimium requirements for FM25?

Genuine question, no clue the requirements for computer to run an engine like Unity.

[the_hdk]

19 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

If you have any familiarity with the Unity engine you will realise that with the greater computational advantage coupled with the possibilities with the new user interface, it’s a great step forward.

new is not always better.  but lets see. I dont want to be negative to extreamly positive untill we actually start to see how it will all look like.

[Welshace]

15 minutes ago, grade said:

The question, how much a leap will be minimium requirements for FM25?

Genuine question, no clue the requirements for computer to run an engine like Unity.

Unity has pretty well established methods to cater to lower end systems, it just all depends on what SI decide to produce and what direction they want to go.

 

Unity is a wonderful direction to go in, and i'll be super interested in how it will handle a game like FM

[XaW]

22 minutes ago, grade said:

The question, how much a leap will be minimium requirements for FM25?

Genuine question, no clue the requirements for computer to run an engine like Unity.

Seems like 2D is staying, so older specs might still be runnable on that, but who knows currently...

[gunnerfan]

40 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

If you have any familiarity with the Unity engine you will realise that with the greater computational advantage coupled with the possibilities with the new user interface, it’s a great step forward.

I've been hoping you would join the conversation. Do you expect any major new tactical opportunities to arise in FM24 or 25?

[gunnerfan]

9 minutes ago, XaW said:

Seems like 2D is staying, so older specs might still be runnable on that, but who knows currently...

I'm glad to hear it. Whenever I try a new tactic or make a major change to an existing one, I use 2D because it's easier to see what's happening across the entire pitch. Also, when I was having issues with my GPU, 2D was the only way I could play a match without the game crashing.

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, gunnerfan said:

I'm glad to hear it. Whenever I try a new tactic or make a major change to an existing one, I use 2D because it's easier to see what's happening across the entire pitch. Also, when I was having issues with my GPU, 2D was the only way I could play a match without the game crashing.

Yeah, I like 2D myself, but I also like to see 3D at times, so glad both will be possible still going forward.

[Nick_CB]

43 minutos atrás, Rashidi disse:

You don’t have to understand it, one just needs to respect another persons point of view or decision. There are plenty of people who are looking forward to it, and there are also plenty of people who find some existing features disengaging, but that doesn’t mean the vision of the developer is wrong.

They have a vision they want realised, and it won’t make everyone happy, nothing ever does. All we can ask for is that it’s the best work they can put out. FM23 had some great features and some very forgettable misses, each year they try and improve and get better. And that’s all I can really ask for. 

You talk as if a good part of the public that consumes the game asked for this feature (women's football).

 I believe it will be a new feature that in practice will be ignored by more than half of the players, as it happens in FIFA.

I respect your opinion, but to say that there are players looking forward to this is a huge exaggeration. 

[Carambau]

So no one is going to buy FM24 as all will be waiting for FM25?

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, Carambau said:

So no one is going to buy FM24 as all will be waiting for FM25?

Have you seen the amount of people who have asked for a version without new features and just polishing and bug fixes? You'd be surprised how many....

Also, I read that there are several features that was planned for FM23, but didn't reach the cutoff that will be added, and depending on what that is it could be worth it. Each to their own though.

[Johnny Ace]

7 minutes ago, Carambau said:

So no one is going to buy FM24 as all will be waiting for FM25?

I'd buy FM24 for the new DB and a bit of polish on FM23, plus we're getting new features. 2,000 to 3,000 hours of entertainment, absolutely 

[GIMN]

24 minutes ago, Nick_CB said:

You talk as if a good part of the public that consumes the game asked for this feature (women's football).

 I believe it will be a new feature that in practice will be ignored by more than half of the players, as it happens in FIFA.

I respect your opinion, but to say that there are players looking forward to this is a huge exaggeration. 

That's a great counter argument.  I remember when the Latvian leagues got added.  Oh the fervour and excitement here was impossible to contain.  Every player, and I mean every single one, immediately played in the Latvian leagues.  That was justification enough.  And that's good because it's a popular league.  According to https://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm (I have no idea on how accurate this is) the average attendance for the most attended side, Riga FC was 806.  That's just over half West Ham Ladies average attendance this season, the WSL team with the lowest average attendance.

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, GIMN said:

That's a great counter argument.  I remember when the Latvian leagues got added.  Oh the fervour and excitement here was impossible to contain.  Every player, and I mean every single one, immediately played in the Latvian leagues.  That was justification enough.  And that's good because it's a popular league.  According to https://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm (I have no idea on how accurate this is) the average attendance for the most attended side, Riga FC was 806.  That's just over half West Ham Ladies average attendance this season, the WSL team with the lowest average attendance.

well said. There are loads of niche features and leagues that many don't use in the game. No one bats an eyelid. Women's football gets mentions and some lose their minds. I'm sure it's just a coincidence though. Like many other features/leagues in the game, people don't have to use it. But it's telling on those people how much this particular feature is one they beat on. 

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

I for one am very excited about the Unity engine. It will be a new programming language, allowing for more computational complexity. What I really like is the potential for machine learning. It’s an engine that can be coded to learn and adapt to human decisions.

When the AI starts hammering users harder than ever I don't want to hear any complaints

[Carambau]

43 minutes ago, Nick_CB said:

You talk as if a good part of the public that consumes the game asked for this feature (women's football).

 I believe it will be a new feature that in practice will be ignored by more than half of the players, as it happens in FIFA.

I respect your opinion, but to say that there are players looking forward to this is a huge exaggeration. 

You are just ******** your pants that a womans team will trash your EPL team 

[kandersson]

I think FM24 will be the new FM12, basically the 'final version' of this cycle. I still consider FM12 one of the best (if not the best) game of the series overall so I expect FM24 to offer a similar experience.

[masno]

I remember that I commented somewhere about that SI was planning to make something big years ago, that they had a entire new development team with ideas to put the game in the next level, and finally we understand why this changes took so long.

While the change with unity is nice for the graphical side of the game, my interest is with this new changes, SI will finally take the step to a more modern approach to tactics, with modern football and their concepts ready to be used in game, there is years that the game ME have a hard time to let us play a more defensive or slow approach in the game without being heavily punished by however plays gegenpressing. Hoping that they will finally make this changes for the game, turn into a true simulation of modern football.

[samrnpage]

It's amazing how the bigots get so emotional over something like womens football being included in a football game. Its such snowflake mentality haha

[FM1000]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

I for one am very excited about the Unity engine. It will be a new programming language, allowing for more computational complexity. What I really like is the potential for machine learning. It’s an engine that can be coded to learn and adapt to human decisions.

If they can translate the current ME complexity into the unity graphical and animation module that would be a dream come true.

And for God sake I hope we have proper dribbling, different kind of shots, passes and tricks in the unity engine, there is no excuse now.

[ElJuanvito]

You know, I have kind of mixed feelings. I never cared that much about the graphics, and I even like that FM can run on a potato. On the other hand, I was already thinking of upgrading my hardware to run Cities Skylines 2. Still, I'm looking forward to any new announcements, and I'm excited that futfem is finally coming.

 

Being able to port saves between versions is a big deal! I wonder if 23 > 25 ports will be possible, probably not but I'll still hope.

[(sic)]

3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

 What I really like is the potential for machine learning. It’s an engine that can be coded to learn and adapt to human decisions.

And the implications of it are...big, to say the least.

The AI teams might finally learn how to play against you, so all this talk about "they wont add x, because the AI wouldn't be able to handle it" should be gone. Which means, more tactical options, more realistic game of football being played, etc.

 

[(sic)]

And another thing for people that are skeptical about FM25 and so on.

Yes, FM25 might very well be almost the same game, just with a brand new engine. But just the fact that they're switching to a brand new engine, means a lot for the future of the game.

The stuff that the new engine will allow, is going to be of massive help for the game to progress and move forward. There are probably going to be many more new features added to the game in FM26,27, etc. just because the engine might allow something that isn't currently available or possible in the current engine. Another thing is the system requirements going up, it also means the same thing, more stuff will be possible in game, and they wont have to worry about catering to people that use laptops from 2010.

So even if FM25 stays relatively the same feature wise, just the implications of what it can become and what new features could be added / which current features could be largely expanded upon, should make anyone be positive about this.

 

It all depends on how the SI will deal with this change to Unity, but I'm hopeful they won't mess it up too badly. I can deal with some bugs, if we get an overall better gaming experience.

[RinusFM]

Taking your saved game to the next version would be incredibly amazing.  From what I've observed, FM22 didn't introduce many new features, with Wide-Centre being the most recent addition. FM23 introduced Squad Dept Planner, but not much else. I believe versions from 2020 to 2023 should be compatible for conversion to FM24 or FM25.

For the sake of ensuring long-term player satisfaction, it might be wise to extend the gap between releases from 1 year to 2 years.

Honestly, I'm thrilled that we can finally convert long-term saves to a new version now, but I do feel that the current yearly release cycle is a bit too short.

I am also curious how FM25 is going to handle regen faces. Preferably Newgan-like would be awesome. These fake "real life-like' pictures are immersive.

Edited June 29, 2023 by RinusFM

[fc.cadoni]

2 hours ago, Carambau said:

So no one is going to buy FM24 as all will be waiting for FM25?

I would buy FM24, it is my favorite game. 

[gunnerfan]

1 hour ago, ElJuanvito said:

You know, I have kind of mixed feelings. I never cared that much about the graphics, and I even like that FM can run on a potato. On the other hand, I was already thinking of upgrading my hardware to run Cities Skylines 2. Still, I'm looking forward to any new announcements, and I'm excited that futfem is finally coming.

 

Being able to port saves between versions is a big deal! I wonder if 23 > 25 ports will be possible, probably not but I'll still hope.

Presumably, if you port a save from 23 to 24, you should be able to port it from 24 to 25.

One other thought: I’m certain that it will take several iterations (read: years) for SI to realize FM’s full potential under Unity. Patience is the order of the day.

Edited June 29, 2023 by gunnerfan

[Novem9]

I'm still on FM22 and have already accepted that this will be my last edition of the game, when suddenly this news appeared! 

This is very cool, I'm glad to hear, because I think that the game is in dire need of the next step. I hope not to see those bugs with columns in the composition menu and others. I wonder if the game will use a multi-core architecture and will it provide faster processing days? I'll be looking forward to seeing the new stadiums with CORNER stands. It would be great to have a more powerful form editor without buying an in-game editor. When you play a long save, you want to update the design of the home kit, as well as the colors of the away and reserve kits. It remains only to wish good luck!

[STANNY08]

I read the blog post yesterday, and I'm excited for the future of FM, however, I just came here in a panic because some wires seem to have gotten crossed somewhere. H&J on Talksport just said that this year's game will be the last ever! 😦 I had to come here to confirm that wasn't the case. 

[Johnny Ace]

6 minutes ago, STANNY08 said:

I read the blog post yesterday, and I'm excited for the future of FM, however, I just came here in a panic because some wires seem to have gotten crossed somewhere. H&J on Talksport just said that this year's game will be the last ever! 😦 I had to come here to confirm that wasn't the case. 

Eem, no. FM24 and 25 were pretty much confirmed yesterday so at least the next 2 versions are a pretty safe bet 

[Nick_CB]

2 horas atrás, Carambau disse:

You are just ******** your pants that a womans team will trash your EPL team 

[enigmatic]

22 hours ago, santy001 said:

This was something I had long been a supporter of myself. There was a discussion from someone at SI and while there are positive merits to the idea, functionally it would mean each possible combination of settings would need to be tested extensively to the extent that it would be the equivalent to sustaining additional versions of the game. Bugs would have to be categorised on which settings they do/do not impact etc. It's possibly something to hope for in the future, but would be a substantial challenge to implement with how the game works in more recent times.

I think the happy medium would be to turn off some of the sillier side effects from delegation (e.g. if press conferences are delegated to the assman, the assman should make boring comments that have no effect on motivation, and certainly not be able to get you sacked!) and significantly improve the DoF (a core responsibility anyway). Default training is half decent but should probably manage fitness in congested weeks better

And technically all the "instant result" functionality already exists in the main game as well as touch, you just need a custom skin to access it.

 

 

For related reasons, I have to admit I see significant drawbacks to "carrying over saves". Understand why it appeals to people that have ongoing saves (this may even include me!) but makes a lot of evolution to existing data models (attributes, transfer decision making, general tactical framework) either difficult or impossible. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by enigmatic

[Cal585]

Super excited for changes coming in FM25!

I didn't end up getting FM23 and was a bit meh on whether I'd get FM24, but if it's going to be the final "complete" version of this cycle of games with features that were missed out on FM23 (in addition to any already planned for 24?), I'm definitely on board.