Match Engine Update 13.2.1 - ME 1325 Constructive feedback here please

[Chris21]

Tuning the ME in terms of statistics shouldn't be too difficult. Just take 100 real matches of Premier, 100 of Champ and 100 of League 1 and so on. Grab the statistics from the real games and set the ME accordingly to reproduce more or less the same amount of highlights, depending of course on the teams involved that may influence one or the other team, in terms of chances balance.

This latest one is the most irritating issue IMO.

Hire this guy SI! He has the solution!

#sarcasm

[Herbert Fandel]

I cannot help thinking that the FM 12 ME with the other "features" of FM13 (FMC, role search funtions etc) "bolted on" would be the perfect FM for me. I imagine this was unrealistic and a new ME needed to be given its head in the market place.

On that basis, the usual "patching life" (ie period from release of demo to final patch) is usually 5-6 months. Maybe this release that could be stretched to 8-9 months so patches/hot fixes could be release up until June/July 2013. I do not want to delay the release of FM14 but surely that extra "in the field development feedback", assuming that the ME from FM13 will be exported entirely in its most stable form into FM14, would be extremely helpful.

I don't want to disagree with any of this (especially as you say "for me" and not something along the lines of "obviously 200X better")

I do also think that an extension of the patching life would be justified in the case of FM 13, and contrast that to the comments made recently by PaulC which, as I remember, justified an interpretation that it was nearly over for FM13, and that work on FM 14 had begun.

As someone who has hotly defended the benefits of the early release of an 'imperfect' game, I completely agree that keeping patching the FM 13 engine so that it is consistent with what will be in FM 14 would be a good idea for the benefit of the ME, to allow the community to have its wicked way with it for the greatest time possible, and hopefully meaning that the release FM 14 engine is as good as possible One assumes that the FM 14 engine won't be 'new' and therefore (in my limited knowledge) compatability wouldn't be an issue.

One remaining concern is that 95% of the feedback they get isn't of great value, so maybe they would be just as well only releasing the updates to a smaller group of people, which presumably includes their staff and quasi-staff, and is probably what they will be doing anyway, which brings me full circle again, and I don't know what I believe any more.

oh well

[PaulC]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/320432-Next-match-engine-update-fixes-so-far...(-updated-10th-January-)?p=8178724#post8178724

Just so you see where we are in terms of the next ME update.

[RTHerringbone]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/320432-Next-match-engine-update-fixes-so-far...(-updated-10th-January-)?p=8178724#post8178724

Just so you see where we are in terms of the next ME update.

Thanks, that's a lot of stuff.

Dribbling, underhit passes (and keepers responses to them) and long shots are all the big problems for me.

Will be interesting to know if the tuning to long shots increases the number of through balls.

How does the process work - are ME1326-1328 considered complete and so that allows you to compile a fix list for them?

[dazbowski]

Can't come quick enough, cheers.

[edgar555]

My new two-penneth worth:

I cannot help thinking that the FM 12 ME with the other "features" of FM13 (FMC, role search funtions etc) "bolted on" would be the perfect FM for me. I imagine this was unrealistic and a new ME needed to be given its head in the market place.

On that basis, the usual "patching life" (ie period from release of demo to final patch) is usually 5-6 months. Maybe this release that could be stretched to 8-9 months so patches/hot fixes could be release up until June/July 2013. I do not want to delay the release of FM14 but surely that extra "in the field development feedback", assuming that the ME from FM13 will be exported entirely in its most stable form into FM14, would be extremely helpful.

Unfortunately extending the patch cycle would delay FM14, so I highly doubt they will take that route. If they can get a hotfix done and then work towards the Feb/March update there is no reason why the ME can't be balanced enough to leave us with a good game until FM14. The key to the hotfix/3rd patch being good enough is all about testing though, I'm not convinced that the Beta testers are giving it their all, hence the number of issues that slip through into the released patches. This then makes it appear as if we are the testers. Its a fact that the mass release will always throw up more issues due to the number of people and the fact that there are so many variables but I think if SI were more selective with their testers and also gave them more direction (ie: test the following set ups/leagues etc) there would be less of the 'obvious' issues.

[Emmeth]

Hire this guy SI! He has the solution!

#sarcasm

Well, if you have a better idea than bashing mine you are welcome to post, c'mon brave heart !

[Emmeth]

Not to mention when I set Overload and all of my players, back to the opposite goal as they like to play.., keep on passing calmly the ball to my own keeper to repeat the tragedy over and over when I set Overload as strategy. That's outrageous.

Paul C, do you have any news patch related for this issue ?

It seems that despite the strategy set, players keep on doing the very same thing. If you set " Contain " they do a certain thing, if you set " Overload " they do the very same thing.

Thx

[Generation-Next]

I'm sure Paul C has already given us news relating to the patch?

Read!

[Herbert Fandel]

I agree that 'Overload' could be implemented better, but its is far from as bad as you make out.

My understanding of it is - The players will pass back to their keeper as that is often the seeming best option, as if you have gone overload with lots of attackers and the opposition is defensive, then all your players will be crowded out by their defenders, instead of available. The player sees all your marked teammates, notes his open GK, and makes the pass. Going overload doesn't equal more goals, or better play, it just makes your players supposedly do what you are telling them, but with a bit more of an attacking mentality. If what you are telling them to do doesn't work, then (depending on the reaction of the opposition manager) making them do the same thing but on overload may not work either, especially in the scenario I point out above. Of course I have zero idea how the ME works, so could be totally wrong.

To make Overload work better to reflect a real life scenario, your players should, for example, still try big lofted balls into the box from the halfway line in this overcrowded, defense sitting back, scenario, so it could be done better.

MakievilPT just posted how going overload got him a 4-3 turnaround, and it often works for me if accompanied by the correct tactical changes to counter what the opposition manager is doing.

I agree the difference could be made more visible, but I don't think it is as 'outrageous' as you make out, and of course consider that if your defenders were pinging optimistic balls forward and having opposition defenders heading them back up the pitch, as often happens irl, a number of players would then complain that the ME had your players making hopeless balls. It's not a 'win' button.

[luka_zg]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/320432-Next-match-engine-update-fixes-so-far...(-updated-10th-January-)?p=8178724#post8178724

Just so you see where we are in terms of the next ME update.

so..no through balls?

[Ptje]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/320432-Next-match-engine-update-fixes-so-far...(-updated-10th-January-)?p=8178724#post8178724

Just so you see where we are in terms of the next ME update.

I really hope you will get the dribbling and long shots right next time as they are still a big issue. Wingers and fullbacks cutting inside when instructed other wise and with PPM's 'Hugs line" and 'Runs with BDR' still happen too often. For me basically the ignoring off tactical instructions seems a big issue.

About your post before, the ball physics really DO need to be looked at imo. The acceleration after bounce and frictionlessness seems to affect First touch a lot in a way too unrealistic way. Im talking about poor first touch 10-20 yards happening a lot, also with players with a good/great (15-20) first touch. This interupts basic coherent play/buildup.

[David Siddall]

In a desperate attempt to get this thread back on track, here's how I conceded my first goal of the season:

[video=youtube;nLCJWgR-3dc]

...I think I just unlocked 'pre-school' mode.

Thanks for the post do you have the match PKM you could upload so we can review it please

Details on how to upload can be found here http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/319072

Thank You

[vasilli07]

so..no through balls?

I believe this is a small fix of the through balls.

- Made most players a favour more direct passes slightly

[edgar555]

so..no through balls?

So... no patience? Or no understanding that a combination of some of those fixes will result in more through balls?

For example:

I believe this is a small fix of the through balls.

- Made most players a favour more direct passes slightly

[Keyzer Soze]

I think the through balls issue is more related with the movement of the more advanced players, rather a issue that midfield players dont want to make through balls.

Players upfront are just too static, and because of that we dont see through balls to them.

[BiggusD]

"- Slightly reduced defender reactions at lower levels"

Are these things Attribute related, league related or CA related?

Edit: that is, how exactly are these changes tested? Soaks? Specific experiments?

Will a DC in League One with 10 in everything except 15 in Anticipation, Positioning and Agility react faster if he was transfered to a Championship club, or will he react exactly as fast as a Premier League DC with 15 in everything? Or what?

[Keyzer Soze]

"- Slightly reduced defender reactions at lower levels"

Are these things Attribute related, league related or CA related?

The logic answer is attribute related, but that's a good question!

[Chris21]

Well, if you have a better idea than bashing mine you are welcome to post, c'mon brave heart !

I don't need ideas. I'm playing the game and enjoying it. Few bugs of course but the one only that actually annoys me is the pause bug before a goal otherwise its more than playable.

[scott MUFC]

i scored from a through ball the other day.

the Dribbling thing is Left and right Midfield, i put Neymar there and watch the destruction unfold

can the Away thing be sorted out, opposition should play better at home yes, but I shouldn't play worse as well.

[kazm]

So... no patience? Or no understanding that a combination of some of those fixes will result in more through balls?

For example:

I do expect stuff to indirectly fix the no tb problem.

But no I don't have patience. I did not pay SI because I wanted to be patient. I didn't expect the game to be perfect on release but there are still some standards I expect when buying a game. There is something in between perfect and terrible. And a football game with no througballs is terrible. That does not mean the rest of the ME can't be way better than the fm12 me, that is probably the only thing that makes it even somewhat bearable to play this game.

[AAlywan]

"- Slightly reduced defender reactions at lower levels"

Are these things Attribute related, league related or CA related?

Edit: that is, how exactly are these changes tested? Soaks? Specific experiments?

Will a DC in League One with 10 in everything except 15 in Anticipation, Positioning and Agility react faster if he was transfered to a Championship club, or will he react exactly as fast as a Premier League DC with 15 in everything? Or what?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/343200-Regarding-the-Match-v1327-changelist

[edgar555]

I do expect stuff to indirectly fix the no tb problem.

But no I don't have patience. I did not pay SI because I wanted to be patient. I didn't expect the game to be perfect on release but there are still some standards I expect when buying a game. There is something in between perfect and terrible. And a football game with no througballs is terrible. That does not mean the rest of the ME can't be way better than the fm12 me, that is probably the only thing that makes it even somewhat bearable to play this game.

The patience comment was at someone who is commenting on an update that is still a work in progress. Before release there may be other items added to the changelist.

My comment has no bearing or relevance to 'being patient' over this ME.

[Emmeth]

Going overload doesn't equal more goals, or better play, it just makes your players supposedly do what you are telling them, but with a bit more of an attacking mentality.

I have never stated Overload means more goals as you wrote neither better play, it is just that having played amatorial football for some years and being a football fan since many decades I think to recognize the difference between when a team wants to defend wasting time and when a team wants to recover from a bad situation in latest minutes of a match in a Cup semi-final for instance.

Well, I am not able to spot any difference within the ME if I set " Contain " and if I set " Overload " when I should be able to spot small differences even switching from Standard to Counter, for example.

Told that, I am playing FM13 therefore I like it but the ME is far from reproducing " the mentality ", as you correctly pointed out.

I came to the conclusion that the ME is not supposed to reflect the strategy but that's only a cosmetic-folkloristic representation of the match.

[Vladimir]

Few reoccuring issues with the match engine:

-a lot of post/crossbar shots.

-every fluke goal is disallowed. A lot of crosses going straight in but some foul is always made and the goal disallowed.

-very few goals from direct freekicks

Otherwise looks good. Long shots could result in a goal more often.

[Emmeth]

Few reoccuring issues with the match engine:

-a lot of post/crossbar shots.

-every fluke goal is disallowed. A lot of crosses going straight in but some foul is always made and the goal disallowed.

-very few goals from direct freekicks

Otherwise looks good. Long shots could result in a goal more often.

I agree on each point you mentioned.

[Freakiie]

Changes are looking good, but why the lowered reactions? I already think that reaction times (on defenders) are absolutely horrible already. I think it's rather attackers that could use a slight reduction since they appear to be quite a bit faster. Also does the better tackling off the ball near the goal mean that defenders finally react to crosses instead of just watching in awe as the striker volleys it in?

I also agree that fluke goals/woodwork hits from crosses are way to often. The "accuracy" for hitting the woodwork and the ball bouncing back into the area should be reduced a lot I think. Also goalies should claim crosses a lot more, especially the ones that fly close to the goal.

Direct freekicks seem to be better than in FM12. I scored a few that were hit pretty well and not just goalie flukes and to be honest that's with an awful FK taker and he has no PPMs so it can't be like the "rifles freekicks in" PPM which seemed to be the trick to scoring FKs in 12.

[cruyff14]

Since this update I have an average of two players a game picking up knocks or injuries putting my players out for weeks at a time is this down to the collision aspect of the match engine being to high as it seems far to high to me.

[Keyzer Soze]

Few reoccuring issues with the match engine:

-a lot of post/crossbar shots.

-every fluke goal is disallowed. A lot of crosses going straight in but some foul is always made and the goal disallowed.

-very few goals from direct freekicks

Otherwise looks good. Long shots could result in a goal more often.

Apart from the "very few goals from direct freekicks" i agree with everything.

IMO, since the last patch, the amount of goals from free kicks are well enough balanced.

[ChelseaSince86]

@ PaulC which change between 1326 and 1328 indicates that fullbacks and wingbacks now tackle the winger? Thus hopefully meaning a slight reduction in backpost goals

[Herbert Fandel]

@ PaulC which change between 1326 and 1328 indicates that fullbacks and wingbacks now tackle the winger? Thus hopefully meaning a slight reduction in backpost goals

For me it isn't lack of tackling that leads to this but lack of marking at the back post. But - for me this type of goals have been greatly reduced since the beta

[jasse]

re Paul Cs latest update. Paul great stuff there. big kuddos for that. That was all I personaly missed and what added to the frustration. great update and really and for that. Even in my darkest frustration I never doubted you guys work, but it just felt so annoying. but again you come with great update and whats more important, you guys have been listening to us gamers, our bitching, our constructive stuff, our thoughts and frustration. and with that as the base you work on the patch. Kuddos and thanx. am waiting for that patch like a kid waits for christmas! (or me for my missus, when she puts that outfit on, after midnight lol)... neh, I´d stay with FM 13 anyway :-)

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

In a desperate attempt to get this thread back on track, here's how I conceded my first goal of the season:

[video=youtube;nLCJWgR-3dc]

...I think I just unlocked 'pre-school' mode.

Have you tried increasing width by several notches?

[Target Practice]

Haha, I think I'd need to increase it by more than a few notches!

[Bobble2002]

i just had a striker in the Blue Sq North pull off the best dummy ever ,

Clear through on goal with the goalie advancing on him and a defender close behind on either side .

He then at full speed stepped over the ball and backheeled it to a dead stop and stopped himself in 12 inches of pitch

Then as the defenders flew past him he turned to perfection and passed a perfect ball to a team mate 6 yds away to fire into an unguarded net .

If it was real and in the premiership they would show it over and over again on tv as an unbelievable goal .

Firstly because of they way he backheeled the ball and stopped dead from running at full speed making sure it stopped so that the 2 defenders could not kick it away.

Then the way he turned and laid off the pass with such precision while the defenders were still wondering where he and the ball went

The only thought in my mind was did he actually backheel it or did he actually over run and it his his heel . Whilst not believing it would be possible to stop and turn that fast i still admired the goal

[Leon_fogo]

I have played in traditional 2d as I made the long minutes.

I post my observations here:

The game played by many insists sides (many crossings), taking a few shots with exchanging passes through the center, dribbling.

Many kicks so ridiculous (being too weak, or completely without direction, reaching out almost by side)

Many balls on the beam, this being very unrealistic

Players never kick into the box, always prefer to play the ball sideways or backwards

I think you should be invested in improving the dynamism of the game, with more touches, played ball and played principlamente diversify both passes, crosses long and short comings as well as submissions from individual plays.

[gpassosbh]

Why don't release this match engine 1326 and 1328 as beta and hotfix for us to test and help with a better ME??

[gate]

Why don't release this match engine 1326 and 1328 as beta and hotfix for us to test and help with a better ME??

Because we are paying customers, not beta tester.

I stoped playing FM13 since ME1325. I would rather SI takes time to deliver a moderate ME update than going too far again. We already , literally, beta tested ME with "not enough shoots" and "too many shoots". Hopefully, we will get better balance this time.

[Jari Rantanen\'s Shorts]

i just had a striker in the Blue Sq North pull off the best dummy ever ,Clear through on goal with the goalie advancing on him and a defender close behind on either side .He then at full speed stepped over the ball and backheeled it to a dead stop and stopped himself in 12 inches of pitchThen as the defenders flew past him he turned to perfection and passed a perfect ball to a team mate 6 yds away to fire into an unguarded net .If it was real and in the premiership they would show it over and over again on tv as an unbelievable goal .Firstly because of they way he backheeled the ball and stopped dead from running at full speed making sure it stopped so that the 2 defenders could not kick it away.Then the way he turned and laid off the pass with such precision while the defenders were still wondering where he and the ball went The only thought in my mind was did he actually backheel it or did he actually over run and it his his heel . Whilst not believing it would be possible to stop and turn that fast i still admired the goal

Just slam on the brakes and they'll fly right past...

[jasse]

Just slam on the brakes and they'll fly right past...

hahaha Top Gun!!!

[eric1000]

Perhaps, but this guy was talking about what is in front of them. The numbers vociferously complaining in front of SI are less than the numbers in front of them playing the game. I was talking about what is in front of them.

The number of total sales minus active players is of litle meaning, as there could be any number of reasons for not playing.

What else is 'in front of them' except for these numbers?

No, you were trying to twist the meaning of my comment to suit yourself. The people on these boards complain about unsatisfactory aspects of the game because they care about it and want FM to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, which at the moment it isn't. There have been a lot of excellent improvments in this years game over last years but the ME as it stands isn't one of them. People who deny the problems are really not helping SI or the game one bit. As for the majority of people who bought the game and that do not post on forums, I can't speak for them all as I do not know them. In fact I only know one person in that group and he played the game for maybe a week before it went on the dreaded dusty shelf and he went back to FM12 with much the same complaints as being aired here.

[Linkoping]

%@#$@#@!

I am done until the next patch is released. Being a *huge* favorite is now a ridiculous struggle.

Here is an example. I'm the OVERWHELMING favorite going into this match as Woking FC vs Bassingstoke in the Blue Square Bet South (i modified the db to drop Woking down to the BSS so I could start with them).

http://chattypics.com/files/LONGSHOTS_zw1un93tnu.jpg

Woking vs Bassingstoke

Shots: 26 vs 8

On Target: 10 vs 0

Look at the graph showing all my shots in that game. There are about ~18 long shots from outside the box vs 8 in the box.

Meanwhile EVERY SINGLE PLAYER has Long Shots set to Rarely + Work The Ball Into The Box touchline shout is used.

It's ridiculous. It's like this almost every single game.

[jujigatame]

Even with "tight marking" set on all wingers almost every goal I allow is a cross to the back post. This happens over and over and over again. I see the problem, but my tactical adjustment is just totally ineffective. I get wingers flying in at the back post and nobody is anywhere close to marking them. This kind of thing is really demoralizing and basically makes me think that tactics don't matter.

[Linkoping]

i just had a striker in the Blue Sq North pull off the best dummy ever ,

Clear through on goal with the goalie advancing on him and a defender close behind on either side .

He then at full speed stepped over the ball and backheeled it to a dead stop and stopped himself in 12 inches of pitch

Then as the defenders flew past him he turned to perfection and passed a perfect ball to a team mate 6 yds away to fire into an unguarded net .

If it was real and in the premiership they would show it over and over again on tv as an unbelievable goal .

Firstly because of they way he backheeled the ball and stopped dead from running at full speed making sure it stopped so that the 2 defenders could not kick it away.

Then the way he turned and laid off the pass with such precision while the defenders were still wondering where he and the ball went

The only thought in my mind was did he actually backheel it or did he actually over run and it his his heel . Whilst not believing it would be possible to stop and turn that fast i still admired the goal

I love the top gun references of previous replies.

I'm inclined to say the player definitely over ran the ball. I'm playing in the BSS and my players do this all the time, but without the elegance of the back heel dead stop. They are often clear through on goal but at the last second when they should shoot they instead over run the ball and the defenders catch up and come sliding in to knock it out of bounds.

[Target Practice]

It seems there's a minority of folks here who don't really understand exactly how hard it is to churn out a new game every year whilst making continuous forward progress.

Yes, there are issues with the Match Engine - issues which can arguably have an influence on the outcome of the match. This is something that needs to be fixed, and will be. However, you're asking a computer to accurately mimic the actions and behaviour of 22 (23 if you include the ref) human beings (who by their very nature are complex and unpredictable - footballers even more so than most!), and to do it in a way that simulates the real thing. Just take a moment and think about what a huge task that is, and how accurately (for the most part) the ME portrays it.

So when you develop an entirely new match engine, and you do so inside a year, it is perhaps unreasonable to expect SI to get every single aspect of it entirely right the very first time of asking. I didn't play the beta, so I can't comment on how it's improved in comparison to the current ME, but I'm willing to bet that it's a significant improvement in most areas, and I doubt I'm going too far by suggesting that by the time SI have finished patching the current build, it will in turn be a considerable improvement on what we have now.

The fact is, the days of 'perfect' software are over. Games have reached a point where they are now so mind-bogglingly big and complex that expecting every single hiccup to be found and then ironed out whilst still releasing it in the same decade it was announced simply isn't feasible in most cases. Be glad that we live in an age where patches can be downloaded from the internet in a matter of seconds rather than having to wait for a games magazine to include them on a cover CD, and that's if the developers even bother to patch the game - many didn't and still don't *looks pointedly at EA Sports*.

Bottom line is this - if you want the Football Manager games to improve and you also want yearly releases, you have to accept that there are going to be bumps in the road. It appears that a small minority of folks seem to expect a flawless game that's released bang on time and that gets better every year. Unfortunately, as nice as that would be, it simply isn't a realistic expectation.

Look at it this way - if it was easy to make a game like Football Manager, why doesn't it have any serious competition? If there's one thing the games industry as a whole is good at, it's finding something that works and then repeating it ad nauseum, and there's certainly a big enough market for at least one rival IP, but no-one's ever managed to mount a proper challenge to SI. That's because anyone with half a brain knows what a damn good job SI do, and how hard it would be to do a better one.

[BiggusD]

It seems there's a minority of folks here who don't really understand exactly how hard it is to churn out a new game every year whilst making continuous forward progress.

Yes, there are issues with the Match Engine - issues which can arguably have an influence on the outcome of the match. This is something that needs to be fixed, and will be. However, you're asking a computer to accurately mimic the actions and behaviour of 22 (23 if you include the ref) human beings (who by their very nature are complex and unpredictable - footballers even more so than most!), and to do it in a way that simulates the real thing. Just take a moment and think about what a huge task that is, and how accurately (for the most part) the ME portrays it.

So when you develop an entirely new match engine, and you do so inside a year, it is perhaps unreasonable to expect SI to get every single aspect of it entirely right the very first time of asking. I didn't play the beta, so I can't comment on how it's improved in comparison to the current ME, but I'm willing to bet that it's a significant improvement in most areas, and I doubt I'm going too far by suggesting that by the time SI have finished patching the current build, it will in turn be a considerable improvement on what we have now.

The fact is, the days of 'perfect' software are over. Games have reached a point where they are now so mind-bogglingly big and complex that expecting every single hiccup to be found and then ironed out whilst still releasing it in the same decade it was announced simply isn't feasible in most cases. Be glad that we live in an age where patches can be downloaded from the internet in a matter of seconds rather than having to wait for a games magazine to include them on a cover CD, and that's if the developers even bother to patch the game - many didn't and still don't *looks pointedly at EA Sports*.

Bottom line is this - if you want the Football Manager games to improve and you also want yearly releases, you have to accept that there are going to be bumps in the road. It appears that a small minority of folks seem to expect a flawless game that's released bang on time and that gets better every year. Unfortunately, as nice as that would be, it simply isn't a realistic expectation.

Look at it this way - if it was easy to make a game like Football Manager, why doesn't it have any serious competition? If there's one thing the games industry as a whole is good at, it's finding something that works and then repeating it ad nauseum, and there's certainly a big enough market for at least one rival IP, but no-one's ever managed to mount a proper challenge to SI. That's because anyone with half a brain knows what a damn good job SI do, and how hard it would be to do a better one.

I don't think this is news for anyone.

The problem is that FM12 sets the bar, and compared to what it felt like playing it last year, FM13 is a poorer game. The fact that if you went back to FM12 now you would likely feel that FM13 is a step forward does not disprove this point; At this point in time FM13 feels worse than we remembered FM12 to be - maybe unfair but still true.

[Korleone]

Thanks for the post do you have the match PKM you could upload so we can review it please

Details on how to upload can be found here http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/319072

Thank You

[video=youtube;nLCJWgR-3dc]

.. no suggestions for his tactic??

[Target Practice]

I don't think this is news for anyone.

The problem is that FM12 sets the bar, and compared to what it felt like playing it last year, FM13 is a poorer game. The fact that if you went back to FM12 now you would likely feel that FM13 is a step forward does not disprove this point; At this point in time FM13 feels worse than we remembered FM12 to be - maybe unfair but still true.

I don't disagree, and I'm not trying to blindly defend SI or FM13 - more trying to put a little perspective out there for the 'OMFG WE R PAYING FOR BETA' brigade.

In any situation where you're going from a well-tested and thoroughly honed but slightly dated system to a newer and more powerful, but still somewhat raw and unrefined system there are going to be teething troubles, particularly in a yearly release cycle where there's only a finite amount of time to build AND test the engine. This is the unfortunate situation FM13 finds itself in - it's the first incarnation of the newest Match Engine, people are adjusting to the change, and doing so in the preferred method of gamers everywhere - by going on the internet and complaining about it.

Sometimes you have to take a sideways step (or even a slight backwards step) to go forwards in the long term. Look at CM4 - undoubtedly one of the weakest entries in the whole series, and probably one of the most bug-riddled as well (remember when clicking your tactics screen up just after scoring a goal made that goal cease to exist? THAT is a major bug, never mind too many long shots! ) - however, it also served as a platform for some of the biggest and best changes in the series, and without it, there's a pretty good chance we'd still be working with text-only commentary. I'm not suggesting FM13 is going to revolutionize the series or anything like that (and nor should anyone reasonably argue that FM13 is as bad as CM4 was at this stage in its lifespan), but perhaps FM13 and the new ME is a 'sideways step' - a short term hit for a long-term gain.

[milnerpoint]

It seems there's a minority of folks here who don't really understand exactly how hard it is to churn out a new game every year whilst making continuous forward progress.

Yes, there are issues with the Match Engine - issues which can arguably have an influence on the outcome of the match. This is something that needs to be fixed, and will be. However, you're asking a computer to accurately mimic the actions and behaviour of 22 (23 if you include the ref) human beings (who by their very nature are complex and unpredictable - footballers even more so than most!), and to do it in a way that simulates the real thing. Just take a moment and think about what a huge task that is, and how accurately (for the most part) the ME portrays it.

So when you develop an entirely new match engine, and you do so inside a year, it is perhaps unreasonable to expect SI to get every single aspect of it entirely right the very first time of asking. I didn't play the beta, so I can't comment on how it's improved in comparison to the current ME, but I'm willing to bet that it's a significant improvement in most areas, and I doubt I'm going too far by suggesting that by the time SI have finished patching the current build, it will in turn be a considerable improvement on what we have now.

The fact is, the days of 'perfect' software are over. Games have reached a point where they are now so mind-bogglingly big and complex that expecting every single hiccup to be found and then ironed out whilst still releasing it in the same decade it was announced simply isn't feasible in most cases. Be glad that we live in an age where patches can be downloaded from the internet in a matter of seconds rather than having to wait for a games magazine to include them on a cover CD, and that's if the developers even bother to patch the game - many didn't and still don't *looks pointedly at EA Sports*.

Bottom line is this - if you want the Football Manager games to improve and you also want yearly releases, you have to accept that there are going to be bumps in the road. It appears that a small minority of folks seem to expect a flawless game that's released bang on time and that gets better every year. Unfortunately, as nice as that would be, it simply isn't a realistic expectation.

Look at it this way - if it was easy to make a game like Football Manager, why doesn't it have any serious competition? If there's one thing the games industry as a whole is good at, it's finding something that works and then repeating it ad nauseum, and there's certainly a big enough market for at least one rival IP, but no-one's ever managed to mount a proper challenge to SI. That's because anyone with half a brain knows what a damn good job SI do, and how hard it would be to do a better one.

I don't disagree, and I'm not trying to blindly defend SI or FM13 - more trying to put a little perspective out there for the 'OMFG WE R PAYING FOR BETA' brigade.

In any situation where you're going from a well-tested and thoroughly honed but slightly dated system to a newer and more powerful, but still somewhat raw and unrefined system there are going to be teething troubles, particularly in a yearly release cycle where there's only a finite amount of time to build AND test the engine. This is the unfortunate situation FM13 finds itself in - it's the first incarnation of the newest Match Engine, people are adjusting to the change, and doing so in the preferred method of gamers everywhere - by going on the internet and complaining about it.

Sometimes you have to take a sideways step (or even a slight backwards step) to go forwards in the long term. Look at CM4 - undoubtedly one of the weakest entries in the whole series, and probably one of the most bug-riddled as well (remember when clicking your tactics screen up just after scoring a goal made that goal cease to exist? THAT is a major bug, never mind too many long shots! ) - however, it also served as a platform for some of the biggest and best changes in the series, and without it, there's a pretty good chance we'd still be working with text-only commentary. I'm not suggesting FM13 is going to revolutionize the series or anything like that (and nor should anyone reasonably argue that FM13 is as bad as CM4 was at this stage in its lifespan), but perhaps FM13 and the new ME is a 'sideways step' - a short term hit for a long-term gain.

Finally, someone with a bit of sense around here.

[axh14u]

[video=youtube_share;rgOf9OzJ5dw]

The first save is rubbish but I don't have a problem with that as that is what happens. However the keeper makes no move to try and stop the second shot. Keepers work on drills to get up quickly off the floor and attempt a seconds save, my keeper was still standing after the first save so should have been able to make an effort to save the second.