Match Engine Update 13.2.1 - ME 1325 Constructive feedback here please

[rooneyviet]

just dont get it.

why new ME? SI can use old ME and add more features to it.

the old ME has no problem

[kilik]

I woke up today and realised im not motivated to play this game while this ME stays the same. Seeing a new update that didnt change anything was the last straw.

I cant see another long run ended in a stupid long shot.

reinstalling fm 12 for the mean time

[RTHerringbone]

Yeah Iam aware of creative freedom having potentially big influence on players actions but I do not have much creative freedom with most of my players and those who are selfish are usually reduced to almost minimum. Overall my Creativity is mostly set to somewhere in the middle so this should not happen.And the most important thing is: It did not happen prior to 13.2 so it is a flaw in ME, i had no problems with players running like morons all the time in 13.1.3

I'm 100% not denying it is a problem - it is and is one of the glaringly obvious differences between the latest patches (along with reduced through balls and increased long shots).

Hopefully the next update can take the edge off things, but the swing between the last two patches shows just how finely balanced everything is.

[El Casa De Munson]

<<sticky post clip>>

Weather Condition: 14º, dry

I had this 2 days ago, my striker hit the post and it just lodged there and then he sauntered over and kicked it in. MacZidane said it was because my passing slider was too high.

[Kriss]

just dont get it.

why new ME? SI can use old ME and add more features to it.

the old ME has no problem

You couldn't be more wrong tbh, and this has been explained many times.

[Kingofpilot]

the swing between the last two patches shows just how finely balanced everything is.

Well I have quite the opposite feeling - the game is far from balanced.

[RTHerringbone]

Well I have quite the opposite feeling - the game is far from balanced.

That's my point - SI try to fix problem A, but problems B and C emerge as a result.

As with anything complex, you can't be sure that fixing one element doesn't knacker another, especially when an awful lot of the elements are interrelated.

[Kingofpilot]

That's my point - SI try to fix problem A, but problems B and C emerge as a result.

As with anything complex, you can't be sure that fixing one element doesn't knacker another, especially when an awful lot of the elements are interrelated.

I absolutely agree but I would prefer SI to not use paying customers as beta testers because this game seems like a huge beta test for fm 2014. I´ve already almost given up on this game, so SI should better deliver at the end of the year.

[RTHerringbone]

I absolutely agree but I would prefer SI to not use paying customers as beta testers because this game seems like a huge beta test for fm 2014. I´ve already almost given up on this game, so SI should better deliver at the end of the year.

I am not particularly enjoying the game at the moment. My team is winning but only as a result of the imbalances in the ME - I have massively potent wide players who score or contribute to 90% or my goals, the remainder being from corners or infrequent through balls.

What I want is for the future patches to address the imbalances so I get a more realistic spread of goals and through more avenues than principally the flanks.

That is key for me. I want control of my team, and I want to be entertained. I'd be happier to lose 3-0 but understand and accept why, than to win 3-0 with one dimensional football.

The thing keeping me hooked is newgen development. I know that I will win games and competitions as things stand, so my focus is on scouting, recruiting and training newgens.

Hopefully by the time everything has settled down, I'll have a squad of prime youngsters ready to kick @ss.

[Herbert Fandel]

I absolutely agree but I would prefer SI to not use paying customers as beta testers because this game seems like a huge beta test for fm 2014. I´ve already almost given up on this game, so SI should better deliver at the end of the year.

I don't have any time for this argument.

Yes in an ideal world SI would be able to test billions of hours of gameplay, and release it on time without bugs.

That is impossible.

SI are only able to test a limited number of hours, limited by budget, staff, and even the number of hours in the bloody day.

By releasing the game, and continually updating it, they can get feedback and information from a much larger amount of play hours, which can give more detail, or at least throw up a lot more in-game scenarios.

Yes the updates released haven't been great, but don't attack the strengths of the system...

[Ross1]

right, I dont really watch the 3d or 2d match engine, but I am concerned about it producing realistic results.

http://i.imgur.com/bdGLx.png

So far, theres a pretty clear problem with goals. After 15 games thats 6 sides who have conceded less than 10 goals. In total, I think it works out at less than 2 goals a game in the league, when it should be closer to 3. Im pretty sure thats more than any random variation could possibly produce.

[Kingofpilot]

I don't have any time for this argument.

Yes in an ideal world SI would be able to test billions of hours of gameplay, and release it on time without bugs.

That is impossible.

SI are only able to test a limited number of hours, limited by budget, staff, and even the number of hours in the bloody day.

By releasing the game, and continually updating it, they can get feedback and information from a much larger amount of play hours, which can give more detail, or at least throw up a lot more in-game scenarios.Yes the updates released haven't been great, but don't attack the strengths of the system...

I know they cant hire 10000 beta testers but it doesnt take anything from what I said. This year the game is in transition (ME at least) but it still costs the same. If the ME is so complicated than they should have waited another year. It would have been better than playing a game that looks completely different every time they patch it. They are lucky to have such a loyal fanbase (deservedly) but if there was more competition I think this would never happen, they wouldn´t dare to release tha game in this state because competition would probably eat them. They probably think: Well the game is like a beta version but players will buy it (we wont tell them that is like it is)and since there is no other relevant manager game on market they will buy it next year, they have no other choice.

[jujigatame]

Yes clearances need a boost. Too many too bad ones. In addition, the commentary indicates that they are excellent clearances, which make things even worse. The disconnect between the commentary in general and what actually happens on the pitch has been there for years, and it is worse now than ever. An "Excellent pass" hits an opponent directly in the path to its target, an "fantastic team effort" is a loose ball which one opponent picks up first, etc etc... I think everyone would be better off if the commentary got rid of the superlatives and "headliny" approach entirely.

It really makes me curious as to what the player is "thinking" i.e. whether poor clearances are due to poor decision making, or failure to execute on what the game thinks is a good decision, or what. When a defender in position to deal with a cross (standing near the corner of the 6-yard box) "clears" it by flicking it lightly towards the penalty spot, I am just thoroughly baffled as to what to make of it.

[Svenc]

Can somebody explain to me how the closing down mechanism works, e.g. at least from FM 2011 onwards I barely see a difference between least aggressive and most aggressive settings, and I am talking watching matches in full. You get to see low work rate midfielders being told to "stand off" chasing the ball carrier all throughout the opponent's half, and equally no "don't close him down" OI will stop two or occasionally three players stepping up and closing said opponent down even when he isn't even near your own area (or the players opting to leave their defensive position and closing down).

[Kriss]

I If the ME is so complicated than they should have waited another year.

Waiting another year would have resulted in miniscule progress compared with what will be achieved by letting the masses dissect it now, it's a painful experience for all concerned but the expression "no pain no gain" was never more appropriate.

[Kriss]

It really makes me curious as to what the player is "thinking" i.e. whether poor clearances are due to poor decision making, or failure to execute on what the game thinks is a good decision, or what. When a defender in position to deal with a cross (standing near the corner of the 6-yard box) "clears" it by flicking it lightly towards the penalty spot, I am just thoroughly baffled as to what to make of it.

I have a feeling decision making and awareness are both factors in this.

[milnerpoint]

I know they cant hire 10000 beta testers but it doesnt take anything from what I said. This year the game is in transition (ME at least) but it still costs the same. If the ME is so complicated than they should have waited another year. It would have been better than playing a game that looks completely different every time they patch it. They are lucky to have such a loyal fanbase (deservedly) but if there was more competition I think this would never happen, they wouldn´t dare to release tha game in this state because competition would probably eat them. They probably think: Well the game is like a beta version but players will buy it (we wont tell them that is like it is)and since there is no other relevant manager game on market they will buy it next year, they have no other choice.

There wouldnt have been another year. There might not have even been another FM if they did that.

You have to consider exactly why there is no competition when you think about this game. If it was easy to do, we have a plethora of football managment sim games, but no one else in the world of computer games can do it better than SI. Even a major company like EA cannot compete.

[jamie7191]

PLEASE HELP!!! I'm getting so frustrated with this game, I bought it last night and after 5 attempts to install the game it keeps coming up with the error message "an error occurred while updating football manager 2013 (connection timeout)".

Then gets stuck on 99%. Please help me out ive been trying for 3 hours now. And have also tried restarting steam but no luck.

[jujigatame]

I have 100 % "cracked" the ME !!!

- Maximum low on width

- Maximum low on tempo

- High on defensive line

- Tight marking on fullbacks and wingers, with personal man marking on wingers with my own fullbacks.

With these instructions I concede nothing and win comfortably with 60-70% possesion.

The opposition gets zero out of theyre wingers and fullbacks this way, and therefore is complitely neutralized.

Enjoy

I actually had been having lots of problems with wingers running wild on my 3-defender formation, so I tried tight marking all wide players as you suggest. My team that was allowing 1.5 GPG only allowed 1 total in the 2 games since I implemented this change. Obviously I'll see how it works in the long term but this is pretty promising so far.

[Kingofpilot]

Svenc: There is too much randomness in the ME, so thinking about it too much will probably result in minimal accomplishments. Players do what they want to do, your infleunce is severely limited this year. The best solution is to watch football on TV, it is roughly the same experience as playing fm 13.

[Keyzer Soze]

I had this 2 days ago, my striker hit the post and it just lodged there and then he sauntered over and kicked it in. MacZidane said it was because my passing slider was too high.

The passing slider was too high?

Can someone (MacZidane maybe) please explain to me this?!?!?

[El Casa De Munson]

The passing slider was too high?

Can someone (MacZidane maybe) please explain to me this?!?!?

I was taking the ****, MacZidane will say anything to defend the ME

[Kriss]

The passing slider was too high?

Can someone (MacZidane maybe) please explain to me this?!?!?

No, he's banned for 2 weeks.

[Kingofpilot]

Iam ill so I have plenty of time to spend on this forum LOL so I´d like to ask Kriss: Do they really need that many beta testers(US)? Everyone can see what´s wrong with the game after 5 matches. I know that bugs are different and the more reports the better but Iam speaking about the general performance of the ME. If this is so complicated, why didnt they release the beta in september? They would have had more time to polish it. The long shots issues etc. are a matter of balance which can be seen by everyone, you dont have to have thousands of players reporting it. I truly believe that they seriously underestimated how f....ed up this ME is, and there is no excuse for this.

[mortiscausa]

No, he's banned for 2 weeks.

Lol did he made car analogies ?

[mrdorf]

With all the ME problems (I'm reading as I haven't got the game) why don't SI just release the game in the year that it's titled. e.g. FM13 should come out this year. End of March might be ideal as they could extensively test the game (give Cleon, WWFan, etc. the chance to have a looksie) and also add in the Jan transfers. I realise there will still be issues with the game but hopefully only minor.

[milnerpoint]

Surely the picking on one poster is as detrimental to this thread as some of his posts are?

[Herbert Fandel]

With all the ME problems (I'm reading as I haven't got the game) why don't SI just release the game in the year that it's titled. e.g. FM13 should come out this year. End of March might be ideal as they could extensively test the game (give Cleon, WWFan, etc. the chance to have a looksie) and also add in the Jan transfers. I realise there will still be issues with the game but hopefully only minor.

I really dont think this would improve the process, just delay it. Yes the game would be marginally better released to public in Jan than Sept, but for me this change would be lesser than the benefits of public feedback. After all, the recent updates were made by SI staff alone, and look how people like them.

Surely the picking on one poster is as detrimental to this thread as some of his posts are?

I completely agree, just as detrimental and infinitely more pathetic.

[Kriss]

Iam ill so I have plenty of time to spend on this forum LOL so I´d like to ask Kriss: Do they really need that many beta testers(US)? Everyone can see what´s wrong with the game after 5 matches. I know that bugs are different and the more reports the better but Iam speaking about the general performance of the ME. If this is so complicated, why didnt they release the beta in september? They would have had more time to polish it. The long shots issues etc. are a matter of balance which can be seen by everyone, you dont have to have thousands of players reporting it. I truly believe that they seriously underestimated how f....ed up this ME is, and there is no excuse for this.

Bet I'm more ill than you seriously, I made these points several times in detail, you can't have too many opinions on the ME especially and while you think you found all the problems after 5 matches you didn't.

You just found a few of the symptoms.

The long shots aren't just a matter of balance, even things like defender decision making can play a part in them (it's that complex)

The decision to go with this ME was right imo and courageous too because PaulC was well aware of the risks, but I still stay the eventual gains in getting it up to speed will make the pain worthwhile.

[Keyzer Soze]

Kingofpilot, i think sometimes we (users of the forum) forget one thing that is very important: we are the minoraty!

I mean, the people that come to this forum and give the feedback is what? 1% of the people who play the game? So, what about the others 99%? What do they feel about the game? Perhaps they are happy and playing the game, and thinking there is no issues to fix at all!

So when you say "...Everyone can see what´s wrong with the game after 5 matches...", it's not everyone, but a minoraty that play the game.

One other thing that i think is important, about why theres some feedback that can only came from us (the users) and not the SI testers: We, test the game on a higher level. Why?

Well, for starters, we play with teams from Brazil to Russia, from third division on Portugal to the top team in England. We use tactics from the "simple" ones from the TC (all in default) to some really strange ones (i saw a few days ago a very succeful tactic with no fowards). The range of hypotheses that we put the game into test is so much larger, when compare to any team of beta testers.

that's why, i trully think that, despite some very bad pieces of feedback that we can see in this forum, i believe that the ME (and the whole game) bennefits more, and improves more with our feedback then with hundreds of hours playing by the SI testers.

[Svenc]

Svenc: There is too much randomness in the ME, so thinking about it too much will probably result in minimal accomplishments. Players do what they want to do, your infleunce is severely limited this year. The best solution is to watch football on TV, it is roughly the same experience as playing fm 13.

I disagree, it is just that there are defensive settings that have been rather subtle for a while now. The one traditionally (man/zonal marking, which both are zonal and hard to tell apart), the other, closing down, I'm not too sure off. Closing down is almost always triggered in some way, except when maybe you're really sitting deep and the opposition has the ball in its own half, but maybe I'm looking for something wrong. From my experience there is no real way you actually can tell a side to have the opponent plenty time on the ball in areas you deem to be not dangerous. And liquewise, players OInstructed not to be closed down will be closed down regardless.

[jsl]

Yes in an ideal world SI would be able to test billions of hours of gameplay, and release it on time without bugs.

That is impossible.

SI are only able to test a limited number of hours, limited by budget, staff, and even the number of hours in the bloody day.

By releasing the game, and continually updating it, they can get feedback and information from a much larger amount of play hours, which can give more detail, or at least throw up a lot more in-game scenarios.

Yes the updates released haven't been great, but don't attack the strengths of the system...

Thing is, you definitely don't NEED billions of hours of testing to spot that the defenders are unable to defend crosses from byline, or that the keepers make some ridiculous mistakes quite often, or that there are silly amount of cross bars etc - everyone here spotted them by themselves pretty quickly. Of course one tester can't spot ALL of the bugs/flaws in the game, but for some of the main problems in the ME you don't need 100 beta testers spending hours and hours to spot - you need one person and a few hours.

[Kriss]

that's why, i trully think that, despite some very bad pieces of feedback that we can see in this forum, i believe that the ME (and the whole game) bennefits more, and improves more with our feedback then with hundreds of hours playing by the SI testers.

100% correct.

[Kriss]

Thing is, you definitely don't NEED billions of hours of testing to spot that the defenders are unable to defend crosses from byline, or that the keepers make some ridiculous mistakes quite often, or that there are silly amount of cross bars etc - everyone here spotted them by themselves pretty quickly. Of course one tester can't spot ALL of the bugs/flaws in the game, but for some of the main problems in the ME you don't need 100 beta testers spending hours and hours to spot - you need one person and a few hours.

But SI don't want just the obvious flaws, they want and need the expert insights people here give on the subtleties which will combine to make the ME realistic rather than just staistically correct.

[jsl]

The decision to go with this ME was right imo and courageous too because PaulC was well aware of the risks, but I still stay the eventual gains in getting it up to speed will make the pain worthwhile.

If this happens within FM13, sure. But if FM13 will end up being just a "public beta" for FM14, I will feel betrayed for paying for it.

[rooneyviet]

You couldn't be more wrong tbh, and this has been explained many times.

ok, I just come here and not read all the comments, so still confused and not understand.

[Chris21]

I'm just waiting for the 'pause' bug to be fixed. Really annoying see the game pause before the ball goes into the goal. ME is fine for me otherwise. Some silly things but nothing that's stopping me playing like in 13.1

[Keyzer Soze]

I'm just waiting for the 'pause' bug to be fixed. Really annoying see the game pause before the ball goes into the goal. ME is fine for me otherwise. Some silly things but nothing that's stopping me playing like in 13.1

Yeah, this bug is a big spoiler!

Everytime there is a goal, we know it 1 second before!

[Federico]

I'm not a great fan of FM13, I'm disappointed as the most of people here, but just i can't understand how so many people say FM12 was better. Hey, it was an ironed out, fully experienced match engine and yet full of bloody bugs. And playing it now, and for now I mean in this very moment, it's just and simply unwatchable. It was easy to manage, to win and to exploit. It had good spots and it had bad spots.

A new ME was necessary, and don't get me wrong I'm fuming on playing it (well actually I decided for a break until the next patch..), I'm sure everybody wanted the game to have steered in a different direction, but this step had to be taken. I'm still confident, to my eyes this ME is a TECH ERA forward compared to the earlier ones.

[Sussex Hammer]

I disagree, it is just that there are defensive settings that have been rather subtle for a while now. The one traditionally (man/zonal marking, which both are zonal and hard to tell apart), the other, closing down, I'm not too sure off. Closing down is almost always triggered in some way, except when maybe you're really sitting deep and the opposition has the ball in its own half, but maybe I'm looking for something wrong. From my experience there is no real way you actually can tell a side to have the opponent plenty time on the ball in areas you deem to be not dangerous. And liquewise, players OInstructed not to be closed down will be closed down regardless.

Must confess closing down is a real issue I think. I have tried a few experiments. Increasing closing down, decreasing closing down and leaving it on default. Default came out on top and that wasn't great!!! Decreasing it my intention was to have players back off and keep their shape but they still closed down. More aggressive closing down seemed to have no effect as players just by pass the closing down player with a pass usually forward. You just get torn apart because tackling is difficult to get right.

[Kriss]

If this happens within FM13, sure. But if FM13 will end up being just a "public beta" for FM14, I will feel betrayed for paying for it.

The aim is to have the FM13 ME in great shape asap, it's that simple.

[mrdorf]

I really dont think this would improve the process, just delay it. Yes the game would be marginally better released to public in Jan than Sept, but for me this change would be lesser than the benefits of public feedback. After all, the recent updates were made by SI staff alone, and look how people like them.

Not having a go but that sounds like we're just Beta testers.

[Keyzer Soze]

Lets be honest:

It took 3 games (FM2010, FM2011 and FM2012) and "i dont know how many" patches to get ME from 2012 to that level. 3 games, 3 years of hard work from SI.

Now, with the new ME we are already at a superior level. So, just give the SI guys a little more time so they can polish the ME a little bit more. I think that we are at that phase were it's all about finding the right balance (long shots, dribbles, cut inside, hug the touchline, etc etc). It take times, and perhaps we will see step fowards and step backwards, but its the way to make things go.

[Herbert Fandel]

Not having a go but that sounds like we're just Beta testers.

No, just unofficial testers. BETA is when the game isn't necessarily releasable, which, despite numerous bugs, it is and always has been, as evidenced by the thousands of people happily playing it.

Of course I would rather have a perfect game than be a tester, but I would rather be a tester than have a game which was never altered after the in-house team were done, or was never released.

People making the point you are trying to make always make the same mistake - although what you are saying seems logical, you are comparing it to some kind of intangible ideal, and not any of the available realities. Compared to the other realistic options, the current set-up is the most productive. I'm not saying the patches are perfect, and there are many non-ME issues that annoy me no-end, but if you actually think through what you are asking for it doesn't sound very good

[Svenc]

Must confess closing down is a real issue I think. I have tried a few experiments. Increasing closing down, decreasing closing down and leaving it on default. Default came out on top and that wasn't great!!! Decreasing it my intention was to have players back off and keep their shape but they still closed down. More aggressive closing down seemed to have no effect as players just by pass the closing down player with a pass usually forward. You just get torn apart because tackling is difficult to get right.

On top of that, I often struggle to see a big difference between sides meant to "stand off" versus those that are told to "hassle the opponent", apart from the obvious differences: the tight vs. the loose marking, the easy vs. the hard tackling, and at best the slight d-line adjustments. But in terms of the movement and runs made towards the ball carrier, I really dunno. There must be a difference, as "hassle the opponent" was once considered a "cheat" shout by some, i.e. deemed to be a tad too effective I think. But that effect, if it was there, must have been lost in ME iterations that followed. And with it likely the sensibility of the CD slider. For the record, this goes all the way back to FM 2011 at the least.

[jujigatame]

I'm not a great fan of FM13, I'm disappointed as the most of people here, but just i can't understand how so many people say FM12 was better. Hey, it was an ironed out, fully experienced match engine and yet full of bloody bugs. And playing it now, and for now I mean in this very moment, it's just and simply unwatchable. It was easy to manage, to win and to exploit. It had good spots and it had bad spots.

A new ME was necessary, and don't get me wrong I'm fuming on playing it (well actually I decided for a break until the next patch..), I'm sure everybody wanted the game to have steered in a different direction, but this step had to be taken. I'm still confident, to my eyes this ME is a TECH ERA forward compared to the earlier ones.

I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment that FM12 was the better game, but I think I understand where it comes from. In FM12 I think I generally saw less head scratching plays, and it required much less fine tweaking to get my team to play reasonably well. As it stands in FM13 I have to remember to set scads of OIs and shouts before every game for my team to play the way I'd like.

[Mastouris]

why do people cry so much...i cant feel anyone who says that ME is not good or the game being unplayable(thats a joke and cut it out already)......how can SI take your comments as serious when you say that fm2012 is better than 2013 when the difference is so obvious...

[Herbert Fandel]

I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment that FM12 was the better game, but I think I understand where it comes from. In FM12 I think I generally saw less head scratching plays, and it required much less fine tweaking to get my team to play reasonably well. As it stands in FM13 I have to remember to set scads of OIs and shouts before every game for my team to play the way I'd like.

You can pre-set shouts you know? Group them all together into one set shout. Not exactly onerous.

Like I have said before, if someone says they found FM12 more enjoyable, then fine, that is their opinion. If they say it is definitely better then they are wrong.

(of course some could reasonably argue enjoyable = better, but in this case it isn't)

[PaulC]

This is where we are at:

I am working daily on the 13 ME to provide an update for you hopefully well before the February data update but no date has been set as it isnt ready yet. So far despite having reduced long shots and improved defending vs dribbling etc the knock-ons have left things unbalanced. For example there are not enough goals at lower levels but plenty at higher ones. So until I can sort that out, hopefully without new knock-ons I cant schedule an update. If we can rebalance quickly then we will release one ASAP and then decide thereafter if more improvements are needed before or on the data update.

Sorry I cant be more specific!

On a couple of other issues that have been raised I also want to have my say:

- Ball physics. We are far happier with the ball physics in 13 than with what we had in 12, which had a less realistic model. That doesnt mean all is perfect as shown by the odd curve bug but those are rare enough that we concentrate elsewhere for the remainder of the 13 process.

- Reverting to the 12 ME. We consider the 12 ME as "stable" as it was, to be far inferior to the 13 ME. There is roughly a -100000% chance that we will ever revert. We respect the opinions of those who disagree but the only advice I can give them unfortunately is to play 12 instead. Look on it as buying the latest album by a band you like. You get it but it turns out you prefer the album before so you listen to that instead. It happens and we know we can't please everybody.

Thanks all,

Paul

[jujigatame]

@Herbert Fandel:

That's good to know, but again, I don't really think I should have to set "work ball into box" at all times just so my team doesn't take 20 absurd long shots in every match. Nor do I think I should have to set "tight marking" on all wide players lest they dribble down the byline to the near post unfettered, or score from long crosses at the back post with extreme regularity. It is irritating, and these weren't problems I remember experiencing in FM12.