fm23 still too many old players in squads in future and not enough youth development

[Mcfc1894]

This is England national squad just 2 players under the age of 27 and Chelsea only one starting player under the age of 27 this is really immersion breaking for long term saves this was similiar for fm 22 not sure why more hasn't been done to balance this one of the greatest things about fm is seeing wonderkids now all the best singings are only 25 plus 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Mcfc1894
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[Dagenham_Dave]

That's really dIsappointing, it was the biggest thing that ruined FM22 for me. Criminal that it doesn't look like it's been addressed. 

[GreenTriangle]

It would be interesting to check their reputation (world reputation). At the beginning of the game (130000 players) there are 2700 players having a good reputation, 662 very good, 164 superb and 5 exceptional. The percentage would be 21 per thousand for good, 5 per thousand for very good and 1 per thousand for superb. If the number of players having these reputations is not kept at a similar level throughout the game, it's normal for the AI to prefer older players.

In a save before the update, this was the ratio in 2039 :

- players having a good world reputation : 830 (29 years and less) and 1276 (30 years and more).

- players having a very good world reputation : 296 (29 years and less) and 510 (30 years and more)

- players having a superb world reputation : 93 (29 years and less) and 196 (30 years and more)

Normally there should be more players aged 20-29 than those aged 30 and over. Obviously, there is a problem. For now there is no save that has fully tested the game containing the update, but probably such a save will appear in the next few days

Edited October 26, 2022 by GreenTriangle

[CFuller]

This was the main thing that put me off a long-term save on FM22. Big teams and nations over-reliant on older players, and hardly bringing any youngsters through other than the odd generational talent. If it's still like this on FM23, then what's the point in playing on beyond the first 5 seasons?

I'm convinced that it's (at least partly) related to player reputations not growing fast enough. On FM22, there were very few high-reputation youngsters in 2030 compared to at the start of the game, but the reduction of high-CA youngsters wasn't quite as bad.

I've not had time to run any tests on FM23, but I fear this might still be a problem.

[Dotsworthy]

30 minutes ago, CFuller said:

I'm convinced that it's (at least partly) related to player reputations not growing fast enough. On FM22, there were very few high-reputation youngsters in 2030 compared to at the start of the game, but the reduction of high-CA youngsters wasn't quite as bad.

Indeed it was. Davidincid created a db file that added huge amount of reputation boosts for younger players in an attempt to get them competitive with older players. Not sure how successful it was though.

This has always been an issue, the only reason it effected FM22 is because of older players now lose CA slower causing the imbalance.

[CFuller]

1 minute ago, Dotsworthy said:

Indeed it was. Davidincid created a db file that added huge amount of reputation boosts for younger players in an attempt to get them competitive with older players. Not sure how successful it was though.

This has always been an issue, the only reason it effected FM22 is because of older players now lose CA slower causing the imbalance.

Yes, I used Dave's files on my FM22 save. They helped a little by boosting the reputations of some young player awards, but modders can only do so much.

[celtic_fc]

That and rotation being non existent for AI managers absolutely kills long saves.  No point in even bringing it up these days as it's been an issue for so long.

Edited October 26, 2022 by celtic_fc

[Mars_Blackmon]

report it as a bug

[trevjim]

AI squad building is something that I and countless others have been pushing for years and it never seems to get addressed.

You get the old player bias as mentioned but you also still get teams buy a player for £60mil and play his 8 times over 3 years and then sell him on to another team to do the same. 

It's such a shame that this is overlooked again

[Daveincid]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Dotsworthy:

Not sure how successful it was though.

successful 

[mielony]

This is very bad news, does it really make sense to continue playing? I haven't finished my first season yet and I'm wondering whether to end it. The problem with AI building the squad really put me off FM22. I wish it had been fixed I am disappointed.

[KingCanary]

I noticed on the LeoFM thread that his first sim to 2039 still had 8 of the top 12 players in the world were players who existed when the game started which is just incredible to me. 

This is such a big issue and I can't believe it isn't sorted yet. I'm in 2031 on my FM22 save and every time the top 50 players comes up it reminds me how broken this is (currently 2 regens have cracked the top 50). 

[DP]

Can only think that it’s by design at this point to help players ‘win’ and get small teams up the league. 

If this is addressed it will make long term saves more challenging and hence you’ll get fewer ‘fm stories’ of players taking teams from the conference to the champions league. That’s the essence of FM and I can see why they may not want to harm that. 

This is currently the sole reason stopping me buying modern FMs but the lack of communication on it means maybe it’s intentional. 

[Johnny Ace]

11 hours ago, CFuller said:

This was the main thing that put me off a long-term save on FM22. Big teams and nations over-reliant on older players, and hardly bringing any youngsters through other than the odd generational talent.

It wasn't restricted to national and big teams either, even pottering around the lower leagues, most of the teams had squads with an average age of closer to 30. This is where most of high PA youngsters that were left underdeveloped by the bigger teams ended up    

[diLLa88]

The issue to me lies a lot in the fact that AI managers always chooses the best squad in terms of current ability, opposed to the the more real life approach of easing promising talent into the squad by giving them playtime as a substitute or as a starter in the easier games for the purpose of developing talent for the long term benefit of the club.

Due to this, AI talents develop badly and reputation does not increase due to not playing, and reputation and CA of older players remain high due to always playing games.

[GreenTriangle]

I don't think there are many FM players who prefer long careers. There are such players, but I don't think they represent a majority. Many FM players play 2 or 3 or maximum 5 years with a team, then start a new career. And most FM players want to see their favorites, the players they know in real life. Probably some would be surprised if a well-known player would lose his place in the first team because of a 21-years-old newgen.

[KingCanary]

11 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

I don't think there are many FM players who prefer long careers. There are such players, but I don't think they represent a majority. Many FM players play 2 or 3 or maximum 5 years with a team, then start a new career. And most FM players want to see their favorites, the players they know in real life. Probably some would be surprised if a well-known player would lose his place in the first team because of a 21-years-old newgen.

That isn't really the issue though- a person playing a 3 or 4 season career wouldn't see their favourite players being replaced in game or in real life. The issue is that players who are playing 10-11 seasons in are seeing the same players rated as the best in the world. For longer term players the evolving game world and watching young players develop is part of the joy.

IRL I'd imagine the overlap between a list of the best players in 2012 and now is minimal- yet in my game the list in 2021 and the list in 2031 is almost the same. That is a big issue.

[DarJ]

4 hours ago, mielony said:

This is very bad news, does it really make sense to continue playing? I haven't finished my first season yet and I'm wondering whether to end it. The problem with AI building the squad really put me off FM22. I wish it had been fixed I am disappointed.

You’re being to dramatic. Why don’t you play the game for yourself and make your own decision. If you stopped playing is not like the issue is going to be solved anyway (if they do solve it before release then I’ll take back my word)

I just have a problem with people making decisions based on other people’s comments 

[KingCanary]

4 hours ago, DP said:

Can only think that it’s by design at this point to help players ‘win’ and get small teams up the league. 

If this is addressed it will make long term saves more challenging and hence you’ll get fewer ‘fm stories’ of players taking teams from the conference to the champions league. That’s the essence of FM and I can see why they may not want to harm that. 

This is currently the sole reason stopping me buying modern FMs but the lack of communication on it means maybe it’s intentional. 

I don't think it is that.

The issue in previous FM games was that players turned 30 and their physical attributes kind of dropped off a cliff. It meant that there was little to no use in keeping experienced players as their ability diminished so quickly.

Last season seemed like an overcorrection to the issue- rather than attributes dropping off a cliff they now don't deteriorate enough. So AI teams are keeping squads full of 30-35 year olds as they all remain good enough.

[fc.cadoni]

It’s an issue for youngsters not gain enough reputation; nothing to do with AI choose players with higher CA (that’s normal behaviour).

 

[Slippy_]

31 minutes ago, KingCanary said:

IRL I'd imagine the overlap between a list of the best players in 2012 and now is minimal- yet in my game the list in 2021 and the list in 2031 is almost the same. That is a big issue.

Our of interest I checked this out based on the 2012 Ballon d'Or list and I would say out of the top 23 players nominated you could make arguments for maybe 4 or 5 who are still some of the best in the world. Pretty low ratio. I doubt on your save the Ballon d'Or nominations only include 4 or 5 top players from 2021.

 

[el_manayer]

Year after year, the same problems are still unresolved

[potbellypigs]

16 hours ago, celtic_fc said:

That and rotation being non existent for AI managers absolutely kills long saves.  No point in even bringing it up these days as it's been an issue for so long.

Is this still a thing in 23? I hate seeing the likes of Utd, City, Chelsea etc all playing their main team in the 3rd round of the Carabao Cup against the likes of Mansfield or something.

[tozequio]

I don't believe this is a game breaking bug, but it would be nice to have some feedback from SI on this, mainly having into mind this is not new on FM 2023, as it's a long known problem from the game.

[diLLa88]

2 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

It’s an issue for youngsters not gain enough reputation; nothing to do with AI choose players with higher CA (that’s normal behaviour).

 

I would say it isn't normal behavior.

A real life manager would not always choose it's best player in all circumstances. Of course one does it more than the other, but this could also be coded as a preference in line with preferred tactic and playstyle.

[TheAwesomeGem]

There appears to be 2 different issues here. Firstly AI Manager only picks the team with the highest CA and not take account of PA and another issue is that there aren't good enough Youth Gen to recoup the old players. Please report the bugs so they can get looked it.

[Mars_Blackmon]

Lack of injuries, lack of reputations boost and lack of Ai preferring to play high PA players over CA players.

[rusty217]

How common is this though? Some teams absolutely do that in real life, so it should certainly be possible, just not common for all teams obviously. Also, was this done before or after the bug fix for player development? That may well affect it too.

[KingCanary]

2 hours ago, rusty217 said:

How common is this though? Some teams absolutely do that in real life, so it should certainly be possible, just not common for all teams obviously. Also, was this done before or after the bug fix for player development? That may well affect it too.

I can't speak for 23 but in 22 it was really common, especially with international teams where you'd see lots of squads with about 1 or 2 players under the age of 27/28 at most.

[fc.cadoni]

15 hours ago, diLLa88 said:

I would say it isn't normal behavior.

A real life manager would not always choose it's best player in all circumstances. Of course one does it more than the other, but this could also be coded as a preference in line with preferred tactic and playstyle.

It is not normal behavior even in real life managers to pick the best players?

Same happens in FM which is pick with CA (CA is the sum of all attributes).

Again, the problem is in database (not in the code) and need an investigation. If the youth awards get a boost, while older players decline reputation (in small ratio) then AI will pick youngsters more frequently. As we know playing games helps players to develop as well as training etc.

[diLLa88]

6 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

It is not normal behavior even in real life managers to pick the best players?

Same happens in FM which is pick with CA (CA is the sum of all attributes).

Again, the problem is in database (not in the code) and need an investigation. If the youth awards get a boost, while older players decline reputation (in small ratio) then AI will pick youngsters more frequently. As we know playing games helps players to develop as well as training etc.

Not in all situations no. It really depends on the club, league and type of game.

A premier league team like Man Utd IRL, being in the situation where they are, are inclined to play their best team in every single game because they are not in shape to rotate freely (poor squad depth in some positions, poor results in previous seasons, lots of media pressure).

A team who is dominating in their league however can in some cases rotate freely and leave some of their best players on the bench for a game to provide rest, give other players a chance, etc. This is also the case for certain cup games, European games. In FM however, even in those games, the AI usually just picks the best player available - every single time.

Also, some managers IRL are more inclined to rotate than other managers -> pep for example rotates much more frequently than mourinho.

Edited October 28, 2022 by diLLa88

[chewbaccaloveaddiction]

On 27/10/2022 at 08:42, Daveincid said:

successful 

What did you change?

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb chewbaccaloveaddiction:

What did you change?

a lot

[DP]

36 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

a lot

Does it address anything to do with the long term challenge at all? For example once you are an established team winning leagues. Are there any changes that gives you an actual competitive rival?

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb DP:

Does it address anything to do with the long term challenge at all? For example once you are an established team winning leagues. Are there any changes that gives you an actual competitive rival?

Read my thread, watch my videos and you'll understand it a lot more

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Daveincid

[JamieTC13]

I thought this is something that they worked on for FM23, clearly not. This is just game ruining and how they could not address this is baffling. It shouldn't be down to modders to try and fix, its very poor from si tbf

Edited October 28, 2022 by JamieTC13

[tozequio]

3 horas atrás, JamieTC13 disse:

I thought this is something that they worked on for FM23, clearly not. This is just game ruining and how they could not address this is baffling. It shouldn't be down to modders to try and fix, its very poor from si tbf

Has this been reported in the bug tracker?

Edited October 28, 2022 by tozequio

[Mcfc1894]

1 hour ago, tozequio said:

Has this been reported in the bug tracker?

To many old players in squads in the future https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-early-access-beta-bugs-tracker/757_medical-and-development-centre-training-and-finances/to-many-old-players-in-squads-in-the-future-r10184/

[TheAwesomeGem]

Can confirm the issue still persist on the latest update.

[DMaster2]

3 ore fa, Mcfc1894 ha scritto:

To many old players in squads in the future https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-early-access-beta-bugs-tracker/757_medical-and-development-centre-training-and-finances/to-many-old-players-in-squads-in-the-future-r10184/

I bet a beer we won't see any relevant change on this at all this version, will be probably an "headline feature" for FM24

[TheAwesomeGem]

19 minutes ago, DMaster2 said:

I bet a beer we won't see any relevant change on this at all this version, will be probably an "headline feature" for FM24

Something as trivial as this should not be a headline feature. It's more of a bug with manager AI, reputation system and player growth/development.

[DMaster2]

10 ore fa, TheAwesomeGem ha scritto:

Something as trivial as this should not be a headline feature. It's more of a bug with manager AI, reputation system and player growth/development.

Dynamic manager timeline shouldn't be an headline feature as well so nothing surprise me at this point

[DJ Sir Matthew]

13 hours ago, TheAwesomeGem said:

Something as trivial as this should not be a headline feature. It's more of a bug with manager AI, reputation system and player growth/development.

Didn't @Miles Jacobsonsay in a blog post that they had balanced this issue to help fans of long-term saves like himself? 

[JamieTC13]

16 hours ago, TheAwesomeGem said:

Something as trivial as this should not be a headline feature. It's more of a bug with manager AI, reputation system and player growth/development.

To be fair i think it was terrible this year for the features and i have seen so many of the big football manager youtubers proper slating the game features this year as well, they have just done a new video about how bad they think it is this year

 

[Teep]

3 hours ago, DJ Sir Matthew said:

Didn't @Miles Jacobsonsay in a blog post that they had balanced this issue to help fans of long-term saves like himself? 

He did say it, but it doesnt look fixed at all

[JamieTC13]

2 minutes ago, Teep said:

He did say it, but it doesnt look fixed at all

That i what i was thinking, it doesn't seem like its improved at all

[eXistenZ]

So what im reading is that if you want to do a long journeyman or a Vanarama to PL save which will encompass more than a decade, we better wait?

Cause basicly all my saves are to bring a small club from the lowest league to the european top (french national, 3rd bundesliga, spanish 4th division, etc...)

Edited October 29, 2022 by eXistenZ

[CFuller]

I wouldn't start any long-term save on the beta (but that's just my preference) - and absolutely not while this is still an issue.

I'm also considering a non-league save. The last time I did one on FM13, it took me 17 years to get a team to the Championship, and the AI squads were pretty well-balanced with mostly newgens. I don't want to get to that point in 2039, where I'm managing in the Premier League or Championship, and most of my opponents' squads are dominated by 30-somethings that I recognise.

I'll run a holiday save over the next few days (with just the English leagues loaded) and see how things are looking.

Edited October 29, 2022 by CFuller

[eXistenZ]

Well i wasnt planning to do it in the beta, but i wonder how much they will change at release, or we should wait for the first proper patch

[LeoFM]

Miles said in a blog post that they've worked on improving the long term game world balance.

I'm still wondering what he was refering to, not seen anything of that so far. If anything it's just got worse.