fm23 still too many old players in squads in future and not enough youth development

[fc.cadoni]

3 minutes ago, Platinum said:

I initially thought it was only due to the incorrect reputation scores for awards, but I did a test with fixed reputation scores and it didnt solve the problem. I think newgens arent getting the required game time so dont develop to become first team starters  even though they clearly have potential to be top players.

What was the alteration in Pre-Game Editor?

[Platinum]

3 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

What was the alteration in Pre-Game Editor?

Increased the home/world reputation of the awards given to the best player and young player of the year in the big 5 European nations for any awards where it was set to. Also did the same for some other awards such as Top Goalkeeper awards

[paveltopskiy]

9 минут назад, Platinum сказал:

I initially thought it was only due to the incorrect reputation scores for awards, but I did a test with fixed reputation scores and it didnt solve the problem. I think newgens arent getting the required game time so dont develop to become first team starters  even though they clearly have potential to be top players.

Well this is the thing though. They arent getting the required game time because AI chooses the squad based on reputation and the newgens dont receive enough of it, if my understanding is correct.

[fc.cadoni]

2 minutes ago, Platinum said:

Increased the home/world reputation of the awards given to the best player and young player of the year in the big 5 European nations for any awards where it was set to. Also did the same for some other awards such as Top Goalkeeper awards

Hmm did the award winners being make it to national side or being played for high reputation team (-s)?

[fc.cadoni]

3 minutes ago, paveltopskiy said:

Well this is the thing though. They arent getting the required game time because AI chooses the squad based on reputation and the newgens dont receive enough of it, if my understanding is correct.

Yeap, but that's the one side of the story. Not all players - newgens can won these awards, so in general something else is happening.

[Dotsworthy]

I think the issue is endemic to more than just player of the year. For England, seems like there is a lot of key awards that could do with adding reputation fixes:

[fc.cadoni]

3 minutes ago, Dotsworthy said:

I think the issue is endemic to more than just player of the year. For England, seems like there is a lot of key awards that could do with adding reputation fixes:

This one seems like to have a side-chain effect, like transfer value as well. We already know that tweaking World Reputation increase the Transfer Value as well.

[TheAwesomeGem]

21 minutes ago, Platinum said:

I initially thought it was only due to the incorrect reputation scores for awards, but I did a test with fixed reputation scores and it didnt solve the problem. I think newgens arent getting the required game time so dont develop to become first team starters  even though they clearly have potential to be top players.

Yeah I have seen a lot of high potential and high ca player either sitting in the bench or reserves or kept in the u21 team and instead 38 players are getting more appearances. Something is very strange with the Manager AI.

[fc.cadoni]

Spain

 

[fc.cadoni]

Italy - Best Player in Serie A does not earn reputation

Seems like Italy is empty

[TheAwesomeGem]

2 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

Spain

 

This is the reason why a player aged 21 with PA 183 and CA 149 at Reputation 1 and a half star have more appearance in the same team over a player aged 37 with PA 146 and CA 137 that has 3 star reputation.

[fc.cadoni]

Italy, it's completely empty

 

[Platinum]

49 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

Hmm did the award winners being make it to national side or being played for high reputation team (-s)?

Yes but the award winners can often not be from for the big 5 European nations (e.g. the award winner is from Portugal or Egypt), so it doesnt solve the problem for the big 5 nations. 

The award issue is still an issue that contributes to it but I dont think its the main cause. I think @Daveincid may have a different opinion to me though

[obasa_G]

6 minutes ago, Platinum said:

Yes but the award winners can often not be from for the big 5 European nations (e.g. the award winner is from Portugal or Egypt), so it doesnt solve the problem for the big 5 nations. 

The award issue is still an issue that contributes to it but I dont think its the main cause. I think @Daveincid may have a different opinion to me though

How many leagues did you load in your test?

[Platinum]

4 minutes ago, obasa_G said:

How many leagues did you load in your test?

Just the top 5 european nations: England, Spain, Italy, Germany, France

[obasa_G]

2 minutes ago, Platinum said:

Just the top 5 european nations: England, Spain, Italy, Germany, France

Thank you. When you made your changes, how much did you increase the values. Did you put them at the maximum value or you just increased it by a certain percentage?

[Mars_Blackmon]

If injuries are lacking game wide, then how are players going to get game time for development?

[Daveincid]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Platinum:

Yes but the award winners can often not be from for the big 5 European nations (e.g. the award winner is from Portugal or Egypt), so it doesnt solve the problem for the big 5 nations. 

The award issue is still an issue that contributes to it but I dont think its the main cause. I think @Daveincid may have a different opinion to me though

Awards are one of the main issues but definetly not the only one. England itself is a special case because a lot of real players aged 19-22 do have a very high CA, so they will logically still play a major part within the national team in 2030. I won't say that those players are overpowered but it is definetly not helpful (inbalanced)  

Despite that, there are also issues in Nations where the reputation gain or development speed is too fast, so I don't see a chance at all for a "general" fix. It must be done for every nation individually.

[fc.cadoni]

14 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Awards are one of the main issues but definetly not the only one. England itself is a special case because a lot of real players aged 19-22 do have a very high CA, so they will logically still play a major part within the national team in 2030. I won't say that those players are overpowered but it is definetly not helpful (inbalanced)  

Despite that, there are also issues in Nations where the reputation gain or development speed is too fast, so I don't see a chance at all for a "general" fix. It must be done for every nation individually.

So, SI have two roads then.

1. Tweak nation by nation from ground up.

2. Lower the weighting of reputation in equation for AI in terms of picking players.

Second option seems faster and easier.

[TheAwesomeGem]

37 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

So, SI have two roads then.

1. Tweak nation by nation from ground up.

2. Lower the weighting of reputation in equation for AI in terms of picking players.

Second option seems faster and easier.

Definitely need to be addressed by the second option. AI team management in general is very lacking.

[Malarkey73]

The biggest advantage that human players have over the AI are (in my opinion) down to the poor way that the AI picks teams. It has no short term think-ahead prioritisation that will rest your important players for big matches and play backups (often younger players) in easier games. This seems to be the no1 reason you can get an average team to win the Champions League after enough seasons.

It also has no long term think ahead to develop talented young players by playing them more than their current ability suggests. This gives the human player the ability to pick up talent cheaply or free from big clubs with unhappy unused wonderkids. Perhaps there is an element of real life truth to this with some big clubs. But I think the poor squad planning is more a bug than a feature???

These AI deficiencies make the game more fun (easier) for the human player to beat the big clubs. But the poor rotation and poor development AI are probably also the reason why the game gets out of sync and becomes unrealistic over time.

[jlboybeamer]

I am starting to believe that this development “bug” has been done on purpose by SI , to stop people from playing Football Manager Game for too long and therefore not buying the next Football Manager Game. 

I struggle to fathom how this bug can exist when they can easily run a simulation like you guys have been doing and yet still fail to spot this issue. 

You only have to look at the top 50 players in the news section in 2030 to realise that most of the top players in the top 50 players in 2022 are still there and maybe 1-3 regens. 

They just flat out refuse to fix it or have orders to not fix it for game sales sake. Which is greedy.

They just don’t want us to get too much of our money’s worth playing the game into 2030+. 

I am currently into 2032 taking Kettering from National League North into the Championship and my squad is old as hell. Most are in their 30’s, simply because there are no good regens in their 20’s in free agency what so ever and if there is one they have a dumb stat spread for example a seemingly perfect cb with a jumping reach of 8. Most regens lack key stats for their roles in this version. 

Really no point going for long term saves at this point from the bottom leagues up , since you end up with so few choices of decent players when its 2030 onwards.

It’s not just a.i national squads even at club level the a.i teams are old.

This has been my save style since forever and last year was bad but this year it just hasn’t changed. Even with the recent “fix”. 

I also suspect they need to break something in each version in game to make it as a feature in the next game. 

Won’t be surprised to get a feature as 

“ Improved a.i managers and player development tweaks” 

Edited December 3, 2022 by jlboybeamer

[Deego619]

I wonder if there's a means for an unofficial mod to help remedy this somewhat. I know it's unrealistic but adding some squad/starting XI rules 2-3 years into a save to the top leagues might force some of the top club's hands in terms of actually picking youngsters. 

[CFuller]

1 hour ago, jlboybeamer said:

I am starting to believe that this development “bug” has been done on purpose by SI , to stop people from playing Football Manager Game for too long and therefore not buying the next Football Manager Game. 

I struggle to fathom how this bug can exist when they can easily run a simulation like you guys have been doing and yet still fail to spot this issue. 

You only have to look at the top 50 players in the news section in 2030 to realise that most of the top players in the top 50 players in 2022 are still there and maybe 1-3 regens. 

They just flat out refuse to fix it or have orders to not fix it for game sales sake. Which is greedy.

They just don’t want us to get too much of our money’s worth playing the game into 2030+. 

I'm sorry, but this post right here is just tinfoil hat conspiracy-theory nonsense.

Other users like Leo, MCFC and Cadoni put forward strong evidence of an issue and/or make constructive suggestions on how it can be fixed. Destructive criticism like this adds absolutely nothing of value to the conversation. It just drives an even bigger wedge between customers and developers, at a time when they need to work together, not break out into civil war.

Don't get me wrong. I am as disappointed as you are that long-term squad-building is still an issue. I've run another test save the last patch, and though I've only managed to holiday through six years due to major technical issues, things are looking slightly better. Youngsters seem to be getting a few more chances at club level, but it's still incredibly difficult for anyone under 21 to break into a top national team.

As far as I can tell, SI have made some effort to fix this, but there's still A LOT of work to do before long-term saves can become viable again. Balancing squad building and player development in FM is not an easy job, and I think some people in the SI Community need to be a little more understanding of that.

[jlboybeamer]

Ok

Edited December 3, 2022 by jlboybeamer

[jlboybeamer]

17 minutes ago, CFuller said:

I'm sorry, but this post right here is just tinfoil hat conspiracy-theory nonsense.

Other users like Leo, MCFC and Cadoni put forward strong evidence of an issue and/or make constructive suggestions on how it can be fixed. Destructive criticism like this adds absolutely nothing of value to the conversation. It just drives an even bigger wedge between customers and developers, at a time when they need to work together, not break out into civil war.

Don't get me wrong. I am as disappointed as you are that long-term squad-building is still an issue. I've run another test save the last patch, and though I've only managed to holiday through six years due to major technical issues, things are looking slightly better. Youngsters seem to be getting a few more chances at club level, but it's still incredibly difficult for anyone under 21 to break into a top national team.

As far as I can tell, SI have made some effort to fix this, but there's still A LOT of work to do before long-term saves can become viable again. Balancing squad building and player development in FM is not an easy job, and I think some people in the SI Community need to be a little more understanding of that.

 

Conspiracy theory ? I am on my 10th season without going on holiday in game. I have posted bugs in the forums and have provided constructive criticism, I am merely airing out my observation , feedback frustration and disbelief that SI can’t seem to fix this issue two Football Manager editions in.

It’s people like you that has the “ that’s alright and good enough “ mindset/attitude that has stagnated the game of any progress and improvement

[-Jef-]

If SI can't fix what you think is easy to fix then maybe it's not as easy of a fix as you think without breaking other parts of the game?

[Teep]

2 minutes ago, -Jef- said:

If SI can't fix what you think is easy to fix then maybe it's not as easy of a fix as you think without breaking other parts of the game?

Unless *someone* has been able to make a mod for FM22 that, if not completetly fixing, at least improve this issue, meaning it IS easy, and it's impossible SI doesnt know about it.

Not fixing this for FM23 either means :

- they want the game to be broken long term

- they dont want to spend a few days of development fixing that issue because it costs money

 

Either way, they dont deserve your money every year with so little upgrades and fixes

[-Jef-]

I am unaware of such a mod for fm22. And even if someone (i think you are implying @Daveincid and his tremendous work) made a mod that improved youth player development, do you - or anyone else apart from SI - have ability to check if something else didn't break in the process?

 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by -Jef-

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Teep:

Unless *someone* has been able to make a mod for FM22 that, if not completetly fixing, at least improve this issue, meaning it IS easy, and it's impossible SI doesnt know about it.

Not sure if you mean me with *someone*, but if you do: It is NOT EASY. It is by far the most difficult thing to get right.

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 11 minutos, -Jef- dijo:

If SI can't fix what you think is easy to fix then maybe it's not as easy of a fix as you think without breaking other parts of the game?

That's a SI problem, not mine. In FM21 the balance was good and since FM2022 they completely break the game in this particular topic. 

I don't believe in conspiracies, only think that they touch something that could need a lot of work to solve and they dont want to put more resources into this because for them it's not as important.

 

Somebody made a simulation of 10 years since the last update?

[-Jef-]

But they did put the work in and it's been improved.

[Teep]

5 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Not sure if you mean me with *someone*, but if you do: It is NOT EASY. It is by far the most difficult thing to get right.

Of course I mean you I'm not saying making it the first time was easy, but you've done it in FM22 and 23, and SI has the files. Took you a few days to update from 22 to 23. Nothing out of reach for SI, who has all the "from the inside knowledge" you dont have on top of it.

[Teep]

1 minute ago, -Jef- said:

But they did put the work in and it's been improved.

Doesnt look like it according to all the tests that have been made in FM23 and since the update got out ...

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Teep:

Of course I mean you I'm not saying making it the first time was easy, but you've done it in FM22 and 23, and SI has the files. Took you a few days to update from 22 to 23. Nothing out of reach for SI, who has all the "from the inside knowledge" you dont have on top of it.

You probably don't know that there were a lot of changes needed and it still doesn't work perfect for all Nations

SI has head researchers across the world who adjust a lot in their leagues so I don't even see the issue being at the devs of SI.

 

[Teep]

12 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

You probably don't know that there were a lot of changes needed and it still doesn't work perfect for all Nations

SI has head researchers across the world who adjust a lot in their leagues so I don't even see the issue being at the devs of SI.

 

I know there is a  lot of changes, but if a single person (you) was able to do it, there's no reason SI isnt able to do it either. Be it starting from scratch or taking an inspiration on what you did.

We come back to the root of the issue : they dont want to invest money into fixing the game, because they likely saw that under X% people play more than 10 years, and fixing long term saves will not increase their profit margin.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Teep

[-Jef-]

Again, as brilliant as daveincid is his fix for development might break something else in the game that's a no-no in SIs eyes.

12 minutes ago, Teep said:

Doesnt look like it according to all the tests that have been made in FM23 and since the update got out ...

 

Also, how much testing was done after the update? Was it the same save/detail level as before?

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Teep:

I know there is a  lot of changes, but if a single person (you) was able to do it, there's no reason SI isnt able to do it either. Be it starting from scratch or taking an inspiration on what you did.

We come back to the root of the issue : they dont want to invest money into fixing the game, because they likely saw that under X% people play more than 10 years, and fixing long term saves will not increase their profit margin.

You didn't read or understand my answer right? The devs can't solve the issue because it's mainly not part of their responsibility.

When players in Mexico or Costa Rica developing way too fast but those in France too slow, how should a developer write the code which works the same for all Nations? I would say that in this case the HR's of those Nations should take a closer look at it. There is some serious lack of understanding how everything works. I won't blame anyone, it took me 2 years to understand maybe 80% of all the connections while I probably never understand it 100% without working for SI. 

[Teep]

3 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

You didn't read or understand my answer right? The devs can't solve the issue because it's mainly not part of their responsibility.

When players in Mexico or Costa Rica developing way too fast but those in France too slow, how should a developer write the code which works the same for all Nations? I would say that in this case the HR's of those Nations should take a closer look at it. There is some serious lack of understanding how everything works. I won't blame anyone, it took me 2 years to understand maybe 80% of all the connections while I probably never understand it 100% without working for SI. 

I did understood, I'm not saying hire 1 dev, but SI can put time on the issues.

Quick math, putting 1 year of work-time of 1 person (so could be 4 people for 3 months, for instance) to fix various issues will cost them 50-100k in salary/benefits, meaning they'd need to sell a few thousands EXTRA copies based on these features only to make a profit. They sold 1 million copies by last summer, meaning they'd need a 0.5% sale increase because of these features/fixes to cover the cost - and they likely saw it wasnt worth it.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Teep

[-Jef-]

I give up.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Teep:

but SI can put time on the issues.

which they did, as you can see in the changelog.

vor 1 Minute schrieb Teep:

Quick math, putting 1 year of work-time of 1 person (so could be 4 people for 3 months, for instance) to fix various issues will cost them 50-100k in salary/benefits, meaning they'd need to sell a few thousands EXTRA copies based on these features only to make a profit. They sold 1 million copies by last summer, meaning they'd need a 0.5% sale increase because of these features/fixes to cover the cost - and they likely saw it wasnt worth it.

Always funny when users telling a company how they should run their business.  Anyways, I also hope the issue get's solved one day

[Teep]

Just now, Daveincid said:

which they did, as you can see in the changelog.

Always funny when users telling a company how they should run their business.  Anyways, I also hope the issue get's solved one day

I'm not telling them how to run their business, I'm saying they arent investing money into these issues because they are a business. Their goal isnt to make the best possible football simulation at all cost, but to make money, as it's a company, not a NPO.

All of the issues raised, be it long term saves, set pieces, graphics, etc, could be solved with money. Not doing it is a choice SI makes to maximize their profit, like every business is doing. Exactly like most companies stopped making durable products and having factories in the west, to planned obsolescence and cheap labor in 3rd world countries. #profit

[andu1]

Can someone tell me how this player would be a star player on MUFC at 20 years old if that bug was so gamebreaking as some people believe? This is a save started from beta.

Also i am curious at how many leagues people use to load in their saves? I never start a save without all the major nations loaded

[Daveincid]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb andu1:

Can someone tell me how this player would be a star player on MUFC at 20 years old if that bug was so gamebreaking as some people believe?

 

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Daveincid:

When players in Mexico or Costa Rica developing way too fast but those in France too slow, how should a developer write the code which works the same for all Nations?

Mexico in general is overpowered in terms of CA and development, that's why. 

Edit: But you are right! It exactly shows that there isn't a general issue with too slow player development

Edited December 3, 2022 by Daveincid
Additional text

[Zapoleon]

As disappointed as I am that it appears this issue has still not been improved enough or fixed. The fact is they did make a clear effort to try and make it better. Changing a few things with the last patch. Still, patches to come So hopefully its an issue to remain committed to trying to improve. 

[Zapoleon]

5 minutes ago, andu1 said:

Can someone tell me how this player would be a star player on MUFC at 20 years old if that bug was so gamebreaking as some people believe? This is a save started from beta.

Also i am curious at how many leagues people use to load in their saves? I never start a save without all the major nations loaded

The Problem mainly affects certain nations like England etc Some nations like Mexico actually have the opposite problem where they get too many insane young players. 

[andu1]

5 minutes ago, Zapoleon said:

The Problem mainly affects certain nations like England etc Some nations like Mexico actually have the opposite problem where they get too many insane young players. 

If so then copy/paste Mexico data to other nations? If its just database related

[obasa_G]

12 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

 

Mexico in general is overpowered in terms of CA and development, that's why. 

I found something interesting when looking through the database in the pre game editor. When looking through the nations you mentioned that have fast youth development (Mexico, Costa Rica and Norway), I had a look at the value of the youth importance for every club in their nation and I found something interesting. In Mexico about 91.5% of their clubs have a youth importance of at least 10. In Norway about 44% of their clubs have a youth importance of at least 10; in Costa Rica, about 60% of the clubs there have a youth importance of at least 10. 

Comparing that with top nations like France and England there is probably a significant difference. In England only about 16% of the clubs in the country have a youth importance of about 10; while for France, about 13% of the clubs in the nation have a youth importance of at least 10.

Could this be added to one of the many factors why youth development is slow in some countries and fast in some other ones?

[andu1]

If you look closely that player i posted played 79 games for Atlante between 15-18 years old. It means that Mexican newgen players either have the correct starting rep somehow linked to how Mexico is setup in the databse? Someone must dig in the db to check if Mexico has something ticked or some values that other nations dont

[andu1]

4 minutes ago, obasa_G said:

I found something interesting when looking through the database in the pre game editor. When looking through the nations you mentioned that have fast youth development (Mexico, Costa Rica and Norway), I had a look at the value of the youth importance for every club in their nation and I found something interesting. In Mexico about 91.5% of their clubs have a youth importance of at least 10. In Norway about 44% of their clubs have a youth importance of at least 10; in Costa Rica, about 60% of the clubs there have a youth importance of at least 10. 

Comparing that with top nations like France and England there is probably a significant difference. In England only about 16% of the clubs in the country have a youth importance of about 10; while for France, about 13% of the clubs in the nation have a youth importance of at least 10.

Could this be added to one of the many factors why youth development is slow in some countries and fast in some other ones?

Actually that is worth an investigation for sure!