fm23 still too many old players in squads in future and not enough youth development

[albertocerdeira.4]

I cannot put the proof now because I'm out, but I tested this morning with a Macbook until 2030 and for example in the England National Team there were only 2 players under 26, as well in the biggest teams the average age have increased as it was before

[bobbyb12345]

23 minutes ago, CFuller said:

Has anyone actually bothered running any tests to see if the situation has improved since the full update? Or are we just going to assume it hasn't been fixed?

TBF this would be easier if there was a change list... 

[RedLichtie]

100% guarantee they haven't touched it. Doubtful itll be fixed in this iteration.

[Daveincid]

Lots of moaning and disrespectful posts in this thread and so little facts....Kinda sad to be honest. And then the community wonders why some devs do not visit the forums that often.

I already wrote before:

The issue is almost fixed and only affects some top Nations because in those, the reputation increase must be exponentially higher as in other Nations. For the majority it works fine. Some tweaks in the pre-game editor that's all. 

 

[Platinum]

5 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Lots of moaning and disrespectful posts in this thread and so little facts....Kinda sad to be honest. And then the community wonders why some devs do not visit the forums that often.

I already wrote before:

The issue is almost fixed and only affects some top Nations because in those, the reputation increase must be exponentially higher as in other Nations. For the majority it works fine. Some tweaks in the pre-game editor that's all. 

 

What are you going to change the reputation increases to? Asking so I can do it myself too

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Platinum:

What are you going to change the reputation increases to? Asking so I can do it myself too

You'll see once my file is released. My simulation isn't that far yet but I even take the blame when I was wrong and the issue is still there (which won't happen)

[Zapoleon]

12 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Lots of moaning and disrespectful posts in this thread and so little facts....Kinda sad to be honest. And then the community wonders why some devs do not visit the forums that often.

I already wrote before:

The issue is almost fixed and only affects some top Nations because in those, the reputation increase must be exponentially higher as in other Nations. For the majority it works fine. Some tweaks in the pre-game editor that's all. 

 

If the problem is almost fixed and only affects some nations though surely that gives them very little excuse to have not fixed it? 

 

[RedLichtie]

21 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Lots of moaning and disrespectful posts in this thread and so little facts....Kinda sad to be honest. And then the community wonders why some devs do not visit the forums that often.

I already wrote before:

The issue is almost fixed and only affects some top Nations because in those, the reputation increase must be exponentially higher as in other Nations. For the majority it works fine. Some tweaks in the pre-game editor that's all. 

 

Aren't the "some top nations" the nations that are played by the vast majority of customers? 

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Zapoleon:

If the problem is almost fixed and only affects some nations though surely that gives them very little excuse to have not fixed it? 

 

"Excuse"? Do they need to write an excuse for every little bug? This is exactly what shocks me. Paying 40 bucks and then thinking you own the company? Lots of posts like that in recent times. Balancing the whole game-world is extremely difficult, so when I say "easy" I might miss some knock-on effects they see and I don't

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb RedLichtie:

Aren't the "some top nations" the nations that are played by the vast majority of customers? 

Doesn't matter. All Nations must be balanced otherwise it has knock-ons elsewhere

[RedLichtie]

Just now, Daveincid said:

Doesn't matter. All Nations must be balanced otherwise it has knock-ons elsewhere

That's what I mean. The top nations that the vast majority play in have issues with young player development and reputation. If it's something that can be fixed by your editor file then surely it should've been sorted for full release?

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb RedLichtie:

That's what I mean. The top nations that the vast majority play in have issues with young player development and reputation. If it's something that can be fixed by your editor file then surely it should've been sorted for full release?

Agree. It's not that I haven't told SI but there seems to be a reason why they haven't included some changes. As I said, maybe I'm overlooking something but for me personally, only the result counts. My changes worked in FM21/22 so as long as the mechanics haven't changed it will also work for FM23

Edited November 8, 2022 by Daveincid

[RedLichtie]

Just now, Daveincid said:

Agree. It's not that I haven't told SI but there seems to be reason why they haven't included some changes. As I said, maybe I'm overlooking something but for me personally, only the result counts. My changes worked in FM21/22 so as long as the mechanics haven't changed it will also work for FM23

I wasn't having a dig at you at all btw. I think you do some great work adding alot of realism to the game. Just a strange bug that they can't seem to properly fix. 

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 32 minutos, Daveincid dijo:

Lots of moaning and disrespectful posts in this thread and so little facts....Kinda sad to be honest. And then the community wonders why some devs do not visit the forums that often.

I already wrote before:

The issue is almost fixed and only affects some top Nations because in those, the reputation increase must be exponentially higher as in other Nations. For the majority it works fine. Some tweaks in the pre-game editor that's all. 

 

I guess that for you it's normal that in 2030 there aren't more than 2-3 players under 25 years old playing for each big national team or big club.

 

And also I guess that for you it's normal that we have spent years without seeing a normal number of full backs with +14 crossing.

 

For me it's not normal, and at least you have to respect that people complain about a issue that for most of us kills the reality inmersion of long saves.

 

But I suppose that you prefer to defend a millionare profit company that doesn't want to improve a reported issue

 

[Daveincid]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb RedLichtie:

I wasn't having a dig at you at all btw. I think you do some great work adding alot of realism to the game. Just a strange bug that they can't seem to properly fix. 

Oh I don't feel attacked personally in any way  I only have issues when some posts contains nothing else as moaning without (sometimes) any knowlege at all. (Not you in person). It's one of my main areas I do mods so I react very sensible when there are missinformations. As I said, there is still an issue but it's massively improved compared to FM21/22, so they are working on it.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Daveincid

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

I guess that for you it's normal that in 2030 there aren't more than 2-3 players under 25 years old playing for each big national team or big club

I never said that, read my earlier posts and you will know. You might also read the post from Neil Brock, could be worth it.

vor 3 Minuten schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

And also I guess that for you it's normal that we have spent years without seeing a normal number of full backs with +14 crossing.

Lot's of guessing

vor 4 Minuten schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

For me it's not normal, and at least you have to respect that people complain about a issue that for most of us kills the reality inmersion of long saves.

Oh I do, I do it myself constantly but with facts, data and with some respect towards the devs. Believe it or not, this way is much more effective.

vor 5 Minuten schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

But I suppose that you prefer to defend a millionare profit company that doesn't want to improve a reported issue

I don't defend them at all, I want them to get it fixed too. But with respect and I also respect that there might be reasons why they have another view as I do. I'm not amused but all I can do is explaining them again and again and again. Sometimes I just wonder what would happen if the parents of some users would know how they write in forums like this. I personally would be ashamed of myself. 

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 13 minutos, Daveincid dijo:

I never said that, read my earlier posts and you will know. You might also read the post from Neil Brock, could be worth it.

Lot's of guessing

Oh I do, I do it myself constantly but with facts, data and with some respect towards the devs. Believe it or not, this way is much more effective.

I don't defend them at all, I want them to get it fixed too. But with respect and I also respect that there might be reasons why they have another view as I do. I'm not amused but all I can do is explaining them again and again and again. Sometimes I just wonder what would happen if the parents of some users would know how they write in forums like this. I personally would be ashamed of myself. 

I didn't insult or disrespect nobody, the only thing I said it's that if you have the same issues for years and you don't solve that, the main reason it's because you dont have enough interest in solve the issues.

 

As Neil said, they have priorities and limited resources, and I complain about them dont have the  focus priority in this.

 

I think its more disrespectful telling people that have paid for a product that we don't own the company for paying 40€, because we only are very disappointed with SI because they dont have the main focus in this area.

Edited November 8, 2022 by albertocerdeira.4

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

I didn't insult or disrespect nobody, the only thing I said it's that if you have the same issues for years and you don't solve that, the main reason it's because you dont have enough interest in solve the issues.

the accurate representation of player development has massively improved in FM23. It was terrible in FM21 and terrible in FM22. So I disagree 100%. They do care and this year (luckily) it seems to have a higher priority!

vor 5 Minuten schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

As Neil said, they have priorities and limited resources, and I complain about them dont have the  focus priority in this.

See answer above

vor 6 Minuten schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

I think its more disrespectful telling people that have paid for a product that we don't own the company for paying 40€, because we only are very disappointed with SI because they dont have the main focus in this area

See answer above above. My answer was indeed with some anger but this doesn't apply to everyone who's critical and provides constructive feedback.It goes to those constant moaners who do nothing else as that.  So depending where you see yourself, don't feel offended at all  

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 8 minutos, Daveincid dijo:

the accurate representation of player development has massively improved in FM23. It was terrible in FM21 and terrible in FM22. So I disagree 100%. They do care and this year (luckily) it seems to have a higher priority!

See answer above

See answer above above. My answer was indeed with some anger but this doesn't apply to everyone who's critical and provides constructive feedback.It goes to those constant moaners who do nothing else as that.  So depending where you see yourself, don't feel offended at all  

If you think it improved a lot and it's ok when the amount of players under 25 playing in big teams and big National Teams it's by far lower in 2030 than in 2022 I have anything to discuss with you.

 

You have lot of topics with data about this issue in the bug tracker, you can see it yourself.

 

If for you that's ok it's fine, for me it's not and never will be, and as a client, I have my right to express my opinion respectfully

Edited November 8, 2022 by albertocerdeira.4

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

If you think it improved a lot and it's ok when the amount of players under 25 playing in big teams and big National Teams it's by far lower in 2030 than in 2022 I don't have to discuss nothing with you.

 

You have lot of topics with data about this issue in the bug tracker, you can see it yourself.

 

As I wrote: There is still an issue in the biggest Nations but on the other hand in over 30% of all Nations the national team get's too young. But this seems to been overlooked a lot. The football world is bigger as England,France,Italy and Spain.

vor 2 Minuten schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

If for you that's ok it's fine, for me it's not and never will be, and as a client, I have my right to express my opinion respectfully

sure!

[TheAwesomeGem]

The problem is, I am having issues on club level too. Teams like Arsenal, Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and pretty much any Premier League team, the average age keeps increasing to unrealistic level. Maybe there are two different issues we are talking about here. 

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb TheAwesomeGem:

The problem is, I am having issues on club level too. Teams like Arsenal, Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and pretty much any Premier League team, the average age keeps increasing to unrealistic level. Maybe there are two different issues we are talking about here. 

Similar issue, not 100% but almost. The less leagues you load, the bigger the negative impact.

[zindrinho]

11 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Similar issue, not 100% but almost. The less leagues you load, the bigger the negative impact.

Could this be a reason the AI always picks up a bunch of free old african/south american players to the norwegian top tier league every year for as long as I can remember? The fact that I only load Norway as playable, and then all* the other european leagues as view-only only? 

My laptop gets pretty warm during matches, but can handle processing days where other teams play matches in full detail (world cup f-ex) pretty well, just goes slow but doesnt get hot. Not sure how it'd do if there were 10-15 leagues playing matches in full detail on the same day every week-end..

[Daveincid]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb zindrinho:

Could this be a reason the AI always picks up a bunch of free old african/south american players to the norwegian top tier league every year for as long as I can remember? The fact that I only load Norway as playable, and then all* the other european leagues as view-only only? 

Sounds plausible to me. I bet that Norway has a transfer preference for some african Nations.

The transfer activity in "view-only" or "unloaded" leagues is lower in general. So if you have only 1 playable nation you'll probably see that in a lot of "view-only" leagues the amount of domestic players increases.

vor 10 Minuten schrieb zindrinho:

My laptop gets pretty warm during matches, but can handle processing days where other teams play matches in full detail (world cup f-ex) pretty well, just goes slow but doesnt get hot. Not sure how it'd do if there were 10-15 leagues playing matches in full detail on the same day every week-end.

I've undervolted mine a bit to avoid my laptop runs too hot. If you do have some IT-knowledge this might help? Another way could be to disable auto-continue. This gives the CPU more breaks to cool down again

Edited November 8, 2022 by Daveincid

[TheAwesomeGem]

47 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Similar issue, not 100% but almost. The less leagues you load, the bigger the negative impact.

I have followed your thread and loaded all the leagues and set most of the big leagues in full detail. Hope it will result in more decent youth products that can be used across all the teams. I will also use In Game Editor to boost their reputation too since that's the biggest factor on who AI Manager decides to pick.

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb TheAwesomeGem:

I have followed your thread and loaded all the leagues and set most of the big leagues in full detail. Hope it will result in more decent youth products that can be used across all the teams.

There is no issue with young players being too weak (low CA). Main issue is a too low reputation.

vor 2 Minuten schrieb TheAwesomeGem:

I will also use In Game Editor to boost their reputation too since that's the biggest factor on who AI Manager decides to pick.

This could be already enough to improve the behaviour. Not sure if its "the biggest" factor but It's definetly a very important one

[zindrinho]

32 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Sounds plausible to me. I bet that Norway has a transfer preference for some african Nations.

The transfer activity in "view-only" or "unloaded" leagues is lower in general. So if you have only 1 playable nation you'll probably see that in a lot of "view-only" leagues the amount of domestic players increases.

I've undervolted mine a bit to avoid my laptop runs too hot. If you do have some IT-knowledge this might help? Another way could be to disable auto-continue. This gives the CPU more breaks to cool down again

Norwegian leagues should have a preference for a few selected young african talents every year, but when half the teams get five or six 32-35 yr old brazilians or the Jordan Ayew type older africans on mega-wages it seems very odd. Yet in a " we need to win NOW" terms it makes a lot of sense, great technical players, free, still have a cpl years in them. With more leagues loaded perhaps there's more competition for these older players?

If undervolting is anything like over-clocking I should be able to do that! Burned my previous ssd hard drive in this laptop completely to ruins, not playing FM though just running a lot of programs at once. Really not keen on that happening again so under-volting sounds right up my alley  

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb zindrinho:

With more leagues loaded perhaps there's more competition for these older players?

this

vor 2 Minuten schrieb zindrinho:

If undervolting is anything like over-clocking I should be able to do that!

It's not directly OC. It's an optimisation of how much power your CPU draws for the same speed. Less power on your CPU = lower thermals. Just google it, it's a fascinating topic

 

[zindrinho]

5 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

this

Right on! Thanks for your patience man  

6 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

It's not directly OC. It's an optimisation of how much power your CPU draws for the same speed. Less power on your CPU = lower thermals. Just google it, it's a fascinating topic

Sounds like the same process more or less, download a program, use it to UV, run benchmark-tests to see result. Should be within my realms of possibilities  

[crpcarrot]

how come in my FM 21 save i'm seeing t the opposite all the best players in the world are 29/30 ive had to break my own rules and buy 30 YO pay him the highest wahge to finally get my team 2nd in EPL year 2035.

i dont have all the leagues loaded byt quite a few are all the mian countries and 2nd tier european leagues. maybe its till not enough.

also should point out the options for loading a league are not very clear and its a bit too late to chage it once youve started.

 

[el_manayer]

I got lost in this discussion. Asking for a short summary, is this still an issue? Was it solved? It only happens if you load very few leagues?

[TheAwesomeGem]

2 hours ago, el_manayer said:

I got lost in this discussion. Asking for a short summary, is this still an issue? Was it solved? It only happens if you load very few leagues?

No one has tested it yet I don't think.

[SuperMeppen]

This thread has been interesting, because you could go back 10+ years to see lots of talk about long-term AI squad building and the quality of newgens/development/reputation (either too good/not good enough/not getting played/not willing to go on loan etc). It's been an issue for years and years, just wearing slightly different clothes - I think I recall even as far back as FM 2007 having the problem of AI squads being awful once current players had retired.

I mean the simple answer to it is that whilst I have no doubt that SI do put some resource into looking at it and making tweaks, it's never going to be a massive priority (and I also accept it's probably a mammoth task to try and fix on such an old codebase). SI will put money and time into stuff that the majority of players are likely to experience - and like it or not, I'd imagine (and be fairly confident in saying) that the vast majority of the fanbase will pick a big club in a big league, play a few seasons (perhaps no more than 5 or 6), then quit and start all over again with somebody new. They will never encounter these issues (and many others that generate a lot of posts on here). This forum is not going to be anywhere near representative of the userbase as a whole in how they play.

I think those hoping for SI and their Sega overlords to do anything to change this are sadly misguided. FM is locked into a yearly release schedule and will always need new shiny stickers to put on the box to give people a reason to want to upgrade beyond database changes. Wasn't it FM21 (or 22?) where one of the touted headline features was being able to influence a nation's youth development, but somebody ran some really extensive tests and the actual impact was close to 0 - and it was confirmed by SI that it was working as intended? Again, most players would never, ever play long enough to ever see anything from that feature (even if it did drastically change things), but it sure sounds like a good thing to have!

I don't really blame SI, they are working within the constraints placed upon them, not just by Sega, but the userbase too - whilst people will say they would prefer SI to skip a year, I don't think the majority of players would. Besides, it would be commercial suicide, especially when, as I say, the vast majority of people won't even see/think/care about any problems.

The only thing that would ever see significant change (perhaps even building a new game from scratch) is if a worthy competitor showed up and started eating SI's lunch. But which companies can you see wanting to put in the money to take SI on? I can't think of any, and so this cycle will continue until enough people stop talking about how 'this will be the last time I buy it on release' and, you know, actually stop buying it (and the irony there is that if too many people stopped buying it, there's even less incentive for Sega to want to provide enough funding needed to fix everything).

And so the world continues to turn.

[Zapoleon]

On 09/11/2022 at 17:34, el_manayer said:

I got lost in this discussion. Asking for a short summary, is this still an issue? Was it solved? It only happens if you load very few leagues?

No evidence it has been fixed yet. If you load only a low amount of leagues the problem is worse. If you load tons the problem is still there but it is not as bad. 

[RandomGuy.]

On 09/11/2022 at 17:34, el_manayer said:

I got lost in this discussion. Asking for a short summary, is this still an issue? Was it solved? It only happens if you load very few leagues?

It works perfectly if you buy the editor, edit the game yourself, load every league and then ignore the top clubs/countries.

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 7 horas, RandomGuy. dijo:

It works perfectly if you buy the editor, edit the game yourself, load every league and then ignore the top clubs/countries.

Touché.

 

See people defending SI in this particular topic makes me think about the governors we have.

 

But they need hours of testing after one year with the issue, (24 h x 365 days).

 

At least, it would be better if they dont make fun of us. If I go to my boss to say "I need several hours of testing" for an issue in an app that has been there for a year I would be fired in a second.

[Dotsworthy]

6 minutes ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

At least, it would be better if they dont make fun of us. If I go to my boss to say "I need several hours of testing" for an issue in an app that has been there for a year I would be fired in a second.

Sounds like you have a boss that doesn't know much about software development 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Dotsworthy

[CFuller]

1 hour ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

See people defending SI in this particular topic makes me think about the governors we have.

But they need hours of testing after one year with the issue, (24 h x 365 days).

To be fair, "one year" in this case does not mean "365 days". Again, my bug report for FM22 was posted just six months ago. I can't remember if there were any substantial reports before then. Feel free to correct me if there were.

Also, I hope you're not expecting video game developers to constantly test their games for 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Even Blizzard would say that's a bit extreme. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by CFuller

[Zapoleon]

Wonder if any of the new changes this patch will  improve or fix this issue:

   - Improved CA progression rates for players in inactive leagues

- Improved Attribute distribution – NewGen generation + progression (eg. Crossing for fullbacks)

- Tweaks to NewGen reputation

[Mcfc1894]

I'll holiday a save now to see if it's been fixed may take a couple of days if anyone has a quicker PC who would be able to do it sooner would be appreciated 

[TheAwesomeGem]

1 hour ago, Mcfc1894 said:

I'll holiday a save now to see if it's been fixed may take a couple of days if anyone has a quicker PC who would be able to do it sooner would be appreciated 

I am on it!

[TheAwesomeGem]

Looks like the issue is still present on the latest update. Loaded the top 4 leagues in Playable, the rest of the leagues in view only, and all international competitions in Full Detailed mode. Average age is very high.

[Mcfc1894]

23 minutes ago, TheAwesomeGem said:

Looks like the issue is still present on the latest update. Loaded the top 4 leagues in Playable, the rest of the leagues in view only, and all international competitions in Full Detailed mode. Average age is very high.

 Newcastle and Arsenal not having a single player aged under 26 with more than 10 starts is crazy for a game that strives on "realism" 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Mcfc1894
.

[Valencia7]

8 hours ago, TheAwesomeGem said:

…

How do you get CA and PA shown as a number instead of star rating? Is this part of the skin or is it something else?

[XaW]

17 minutes ago, Valencia7 said:

How do you get CA and PA shown as a number instead of star rating? Is this part of the skin or is it something else?

In-game editor allows for that.

[fc.cadoni]

13 hours ago, TheAwesomeGem said:

Looks like the issue is still present on the latest update. Loaded the top 4 leagues in Playable, the rest of the leagues in view only, and all international competitions in Full Detailed mode. Average age is very high.

The problem is on database clearly, not in the code. England, Italy, Spain - Youth Award (Winning World Reputation) is not here, so any youngster from these countries will struggle to break into national team (and high reputation clubs). Look here.

[paveltopskiy]

20 минут назад, fc.cadoni сказал:

The problem is on database clearly, not in the code. England, Italy, Spain - Youth Award (Winning World Reputation) is not here, so any youngster from these countries will struggle to break into national team (and high reputation clubs). Look here.

So is there a way to fix AI not playing youngsters by tweaking the database in the editor? If so, what exactly should be changed?

[fc.cadoni]

15 minutes ago, paveltopskiy said:

So is there a way to fix AI not playing youngsters by tweaking the database in the editor? If so, what exactly should be changed?

The Winning Home - World Reputation across entire database in Youth Awards. Otherwise, still young people will not earn reputation (more) - so AI will not pick them (which gonna directly development as well, since competitive matches is key for 18 y/o and older).

[paveltopskiy]

1 час назад, fc.cadoni сказал:

The Winning Home - World Reputation across entire database in Youth Awards. Otherwise, still young people will not earn reputation (more) - so AI will not pick them (which gonna directly development as well, since competitive matches is key for 18 y/o and older).

Can you specify what's the exact change in the amount of reputation received that should be implemented so the newgens are starting for clubs and nations again? I am not so familiar with the editor to fully understand what you mean

[Platinum]

I initially thought it was only due to the incorrect reputation scores for awards, but I did a test with fixed reputation scores and it didnt solve the problem. I think newgens arent getting the required game time so dont develop to become first team starters  even though they clearly have potential to be top players.