fm23 still too many old players in squads in future and not enough youth development

[Malarkey73]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

TL:DR: There is an issue, but it relates to reputation rather than development in isolation. Then cascades from there.

If there where no development, how would this happen in my game:

In your earlier post you showed biographies of a small selection of 4 wonderkids/young internationals. They all seemed to be  highly unusual Jude Bellingham types.

By this I mean that they were new-genned into clubs in which they appeared to be good enough (or nearly) to enter the first team at ~17 years old. Only the top one had been out on loan elsewhere (at 16 or 17? to Fleetwood for one year) before becoming first team at 18ish. Essentially three of them hadn't really gone through any youth development at all - and one only minimally . 

Is this typical of the other young internationalists you have mentioned in your simulation? Or just an accident of the ones you chose to show?

If typical then I don't think this really solves the issue. You can create a higher rate of magical first team ready 17 year olds but still have the underlying mechanics of loans, reputation, play time broken. Essentially its frustrating as you can just forget the mechanics of trying to develop youth with coaches loans etc micomanaging it yourself. It doesn't matter.. Occasionally a Jude Bellingham will just appear ... or not. It makes you fell like a mug for wasting your time.

 

[abcdf]

10 ore fa, Deego619 ha scritto:

My two cents:

• CA now declines slower than older FMs, world class players maintain their ability into their mid 30s.
• PA is now more difficult to develop than older FMs, both for the player and for the AI.

Whilst I think these two changes were made with the best intentions for realism, players did fall off a cliff attribute wise once they hit 30, and it was far too easy to develop any youngster you wanted through tutoring/playtime, were they the right changes for game balance?

As long as the AI manager still works with the intelligence of "Oooo reputation good, me like, you play", then the previous status quo was probably for the best. 

Agreed, the current status of the AI is unable do deal with the increased difficulty in developing players. They do not play their best youngsters, often they do not loan them and let them rot in the B team, and when they do offer them for loan, other AI teams don't make any offers for them.

On the other side, as I said in my post in the previous page, it is completely unrealistic that players cannot develop playing in a B team. It happens all of the time in real life. In the game instead, you need to constatly loan them to a side that ideally plays in a major league in order to make the reach a first team level CA. If they play in the B team, their growth gets stuck and never gets them to be good enough to play in the 1st team. So the whole game remains in this loop of half developed players that never reach their potential.

If this is the status of the AI, the previous (pre FM22) way of developing players was honstly better for the overall game.

[ILRzz]

17 hours ago, abcdf said:

I agree, the third point of my post is probably the most important one. But I don't believe that it is because it's hard coded for B teams not to be considered legit. It just happens that the majority of B teams play in ****** leagues that do not allow players to grow beyond a certain treshold because they become too good for the league. At best B teams can play in Spanish 2nd league league, which ,because of the (wrong) way growth has been developed in game, does not allow players to develop past a certain treshold (around 130sh CA). All of this GIVEN that the player we are talking about has GODLY Ambition and Professionalism attributes. Otherwise it is simply not going to grow at all, no matter how much playing time he gets. 

In order to have the issue fixed, in short, player's growth should just be made quicker and simpler to achieve, without being tied so closely to how much "high level" playing time a player gets.

That theory about the irrelevancy of B teams is certainly worrisome, considering how central they are in player development paths in some countries (Spain & Germany most of all, as noted in an earlier post). Even if the situation isn't quite hard coded, they (or a comparable lower division loan program) should offer a possible development pathway towards first team football.

Here's a real-life example of a high-profile club running a self-imposed youth challenge of sorts. I'm of course talking about Bilbao's unique Athletic Club. These are their current first-team ingrown players, and their B Team / loan histories. The B Team has played in Segunda Division B (3rd tier) when these players did their internships there. Loans have been in 2nd tier or lower La Liga level. Current loans out aren't listed (these would include, for example, Unai Nuñez with 100 La Liga matches and an international cap with Spain).

GK
Unai Simón - star - 2 full seasons in B squad
Julen Agirrezabala - backup - 2 full seasons in B squad

DF
Daniel Vivian - starter - 2 full seasons in B squad + 1 loan season
Yeray Álvarez - starter - 2 full seasons in B squad
Iñigo Lekue - rotation - 2 full seasons in B squad
Aitor Paredes - backup - 2 full seasons in B squad

MF
Mikel Vesga - starter - 2 full seasons in B squad + 2 loan seasons
Oihan Sancet - starter - 1 season in B squad
Iker Muniain - star - 1 season in B squad
Unai Vencedor - rotation - 2 full seasons in B squad
Oier Zarraga - backup - 1+ seasons in B squad

FW
Jon Morcillo - backup - 2 full seasons in B squad + partial loan season
Iñaki Williams - star - 2 partial seasons in B squad
Nico Williams - star - 1 full season in B squad
Gorka Guruzeta - backup - 4 full seasons in B squad, 2 seasons elsewhere (Segunda), signed back to Athletic
Asier Villalibre - backup - 3 full seasons in B squad + 3 partial season loans

Some of these players have "graduated" to starting 1st team roles straight from the B squad. Others have bounced around a bit as backups or loanees for a few years. But the point is that even in real life a resource-rich youth development focused club currently sitting in a Champions League qualification spot can field a reasonable starting 11 solely from club-grown players. And a majority of these players have been able to develop enough in the 3rd tier to jump up and contribute to the main club.

---

That said, I haven't played FM23 (still in FM20), but based on this discussion I get the impression that player development is more unpredictable and difficult now (which I think is VERY good, personally), but the club-management AI doesn't know how to do it properly (which is bad), and that the older, easier development model covered a lot of these AI shortcomings so the issues weren't as visible. 

[abcdf]

3 minuti fa, ILRzz ha scritto:

That theory about the irrelevancy of B teams is certainly worrisome, considering how central they are in player development paths in some countries (Spain & Germany most of all, as noted in an earlier post). Even if the situation isn't quite hard coded, they (or a comparable lower division loan program) should offer a possible development pathway towards first team football.

Here's a real-life example of a high-profile club running a self-imposed youth challenge of sorts. I'm of course talking about Bilbao's unique Athletic Club. These are their current first-team ingrown players, and their B Team / loan histories. The B Team has played in Segunda Division B (3rd tier) when these players did their internships there. Loans have been in 2nd tier or lower La Liga level. Current loans out aren't listed (these would include, for example, Unai Nuñez with 100 La Liga matches and an international cap with Spain).

GK
Unai Simón - star - 2 full seasons in B squad
Julen Agirrezabala - backup - 2 full seasons in B squad

DF
Daniel Vivian - starter - 2 full seasons in B squad + 1 loan season
Yeray Álvarez - starter - 2 full seasons in B squad
Iñigo Lekue - rotation - 2 full seasons in B squad
Aitor Paredes - backup - 2 full seasons in B squad

MF
Mikel Vesga - starter - 2 full seasons in B squad + 2 loan seasons
Oihan Sancet - starter - 1 season in B squad
Iker Muniain - star - 1 season in B squad
Unai Vencedor - rotation - 2 full seasons in B squad
Oier Zarraga - backup - 1+ seasons in B squad

FW
Jon Morcillo - backup - 2 full seasons in B squad + partial loan season
Iñaki Williams - star - 2 partial seasons in B squad
Nico Williams - star - 1 full season in B squad
Gorka Guruzeta - backup - 4 full seasons in B squad, 2 seasons elsewhere (Segunda), signed back to Athletic
Asier Villalibre - backup - 3 full seasons in B squad + 3 partial season loans

Some of these players have "graduated" to starting 1st team roles straight from the B squad. Others have bounced around a bit as backups or loanees for a few years. But the point is that even in real life a resource-rich youth development focused club currently sitting in a Champions League qualification spot can field a reasonable starting 11 solely from club-grown players. And a majority of these players have been able to develop enough in the 3rd tier to jump up and contribute to the main club.

---

That said, I haven't played FM23 (still in FM20), but based on this discussion I get the impression that player development is more unpredictable and difficult now (which I think is VERY good, personally), but the club-management AI doesn't know how to do it properly (which is bad), and that the older, easier development model covered a lot of these AI shortcomings so the issues weren't as visible. 

Exactly, Spanish teams rarely loan their talents. And the same happens in the game as well (partially because the loaning process, is, as I said, broken). The problem is that in the game they do not develop past a certain treshold if they play in the 2nd/3rd divsion in the B team. And they never get to be good enough for the first team.

[Platinum]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

Just had a look. Here is the breakdown:

*Italy: 2
*England: 2
*Spain: 2
*France: 3

Also a few more:

*Germany: 5
Brazil: 2
Argentina: 5
Turkey: 3
*Scotland: 4
Japan: 3
Morocco: 2
*Netherlands: 3

From these I have the leagues marked with a * as playable.

So there are players up-and-coming in various places around the world, but there is still an issue, but I think, as has been noted by several, including @Daveincid, that the issue is more related to player reputation, rather than actual development. Which in turn impacts development later on, of course. So the development until somewhere from 18 to 24 is fine, the various age is player dependent, but from then on the players are lacking match practice at a high enough level since the AI managers are picking higher reputation (read :real life players with a set reputation) rather than a similar newgen who is lacking the same reputation. Also, the AI targeting in regards to transfers is also not good enough, in my opinion, and I hope it will be improved more in the future.

TL:DR: There is an issue, but it relates to reputation rather than development in isolation. Then cascades from there.

If there where no development, how would this happen in my game:

One of the best situations I've seen - but of course every database set up is different and there is also random chance. The problem seems to be biggest in the big 5 european nations, there are lots of nations where players develop really fast. And yep it does look like its reputation that is causing the problem which is something I had also mentioned - to be clear I'm not saying the players can't develop, I'm saying they arent developing because of squad management (reputation) issues.

[XaW]

27 minutes ago, Malarkey73 said:

In your earlier post you showed biographies of a small selection of 4 wonderkids/young internationals. They all seemed to be  highly unusual Jude Bellingham types.

By this I mean that they were new-genned into clubs in which they appeared to be good enough (or nearly) to enter the first team at ~17 years old. Only the top one had been out on loan elsewhere (at 16 or 17? to Fleetwood for one year) before becoming first team at 18ish. Essentially three of them hadn't really gone through any youth development at all - and one only minimally . 

Is this typical of the other young internationalists you have mentioned in your simulation? Or just an accident of the ones you chose to show?

If typical then I don't think this really solves the issue. You can create a higher rate of magical first team ready 17 year olds but still have the underlying mechanics of loans, reputation, play time broken. Essentially its frustrating as you can just forget the mechanics of trying to develop youth with coaches loans etc micomanaging it yourself. It doesn't matter.. Occasionally a Jude Bellingham will just appear ... or not. It makes you fell like a mug for wasting your time.

Well, I picked them at random, but let's take a deeper dive then, as I don't know!

Oliver Murphy was not selected for the first team for a few seasons (played a lot at youth level though) before he was loaned out to Fleetwood and at his return he became a regular at Sunderland before taking a step up to Norwich and then to Bayern. Sounds like a plausable development process and not a Bellingham-esque one-in-a-million to me... He was a good talent, but not ready for the Championship, but got a year in League One to develop at the correct age and then took steps from then on.

Jawad Alami came through at Sochaux, but mostly played for the 2nd team before slowly getting a chance back in 2023/24 when the club was fighting for promotion in Ligue 2. The next season he got his break as they played in Ligue 1 and had some good season for them before they got relegated back to Ligue 2 and he went to Leverkusen in Germany.

Camilo Pessanha started with a bang in Brazil before taking the step to Europe via Belgium before he joined Leipzig.

Pablo played for Valencia Mestalla for 3 years before joining the first team there for two strong seasons before he got a big move to Liverpool.

So looking at this, only Camilp Pessanha generated ready for first team football, and the rest had to develop in the youth teams before getting a chance. So I'd say for me it looks like this is not the Bellingham type careers in general.

Based on this I very much reject your claims that it's utterly broken and that no players develop for the AI and that you only have to rely on ready made newgens. And I have to repeat myself, since it often seems to go missing, I DON'T THINK THE GAME IS DOING EVERYTHING CORRECT HERE. I very much don't I think there are some big issues in regards to AI team selection and AI squad building in general, but I also don't think this is worse than what it was. Of course, it could very well be that my setup negates the issue, and that others with other setups experience it differently, but that is why I encourage everyone who believe they have issues here to add to the bug report with their saves and an explanation of WHAT your are seeing and WHY you think it's wrong.

30 minutes ago, Platinum said:

One of the best situations I've seen - but of course every database set up is different and there is also random chance. The problem seems to be biggest in the big 5 european nations, there are lots of nations where players develop really fast. And yep it does look like its reputation that is causing the problem which is something I had also mentioned - to be clear I'm not saying the players can't develop, I'm saying they arent developing because of squad management (reputation) issues.

Then we are mostly in agreement. There are issues, but I feel that this thread and a lot others are overgrown by hyperbole and vast generalization of issues. Yes, there are issues, and yes, it should be looked at further, but it's not as black and white as has been stated here in the thread.

The next part is not aimed at your, Platinum, but more of a broader view of this thread...

Database setup is obviously a key to why people experience it differently, and I also think that some people are heavily influenced by confirmation bias. I'm not trying to downplay this as an issue, or stop focus on it, on the complete opposite, I encourage bug reports, since this is what I enjoy the game for most! I'm simply trying to balance the feedback a bit, since some of these things quickly turn into a mob of torches and pitchforks without need! There is enough polarization going on elsewhere in the world and we don't need this to be a "either you agree this is a broken feature or you think it's perfect" type of debate. Having a balanced view on things are fine.

[Malarkey73]

19 minutes ago, XaW said:

So looking at this, only Camilp Pessanha generated ready for first team football, and the rest had to develop in the youth teams before getting a chance. So I'd say for me it looks like this is not the Bellingham type careers in general.

Okay I can see that the biographies have misled me somewhat as though they are claimed to be first team they have not played but instead been sent to B- teams and so on.

Oliver has a single loan before becoming a first teamer at 18(or so), Jawad is a first teamer at 17 (regular at 18 ) after one year in youth, Camilo is a Bellinghamesque prodigy - but Pablo I agree looks realistic and I would say "working as intended" as he appears to have become first team at 20ish after several years development. 

But overall I agree this is neither as bad as it appeared at first glance nor evidence that all is well.

[abcdf]

59 minuti fa, XaW ha scritto:

Well, I picked them at random, but let's take a deeper dive then, as I don't know!

Oliver Murphy was not selected for the first team for a few seasons (played a lot at youth level though) before he was loaned out to Fleetwood and at his return he became a regular at Sunderland before taking a step up to Norwich and then to Bayern. Sounds like a plausable development process and not a Bellingham-esque one-in-a-million to me... He was a good talent, but not ready for the Championship, but got a year in League One to develop at the correct age and then took steps from then on.

Jawad Alami came through at Sochaux, but mostly played for the 2nd team before slowly getting a chance back in 2023/24 when the club was fighting for promotion in Ligue 2. The next season he got his break as they played in Ligue 1 and had some good season for them before they got relegated back to Ligue 2 and he went to Leverkusen in Germany.

Camilo Pessanha started with a bang in Brazil before taking the step to Europe via Belgium before he joined Leipzig.

Pablo played for Valencia Mestalla for 3 years before joining the first team there for two strong seasons before he got a big move to Liverpool.

So looking at this, only Camilp Pessanha generated ready for first team football, and the rest had to develop in the youth teams before getting a chance. So I'd say for me it looks like this is not the Bellingham type careers in general.

Based on this I very much reject your claims that it's utterly broken and that no players develop for the AI and that you only have to rely on ready made newgens. And I have to repeat myself, since it often seems to go missing, I DON'T THINK THE GAME IS DOING EVERYTHING CORRECT HERE. I very much don't I think there are some big issues in regards to AI team selection and AI squad building in general, but I also don't think this is worse than what it was. Of course, it could very well be that my setup negates the issue, and that others with other setups experience it differently, but that is why I encourage everyone who believe they have issues here to add to the bug report with their saves and an explanation of WHAT your are seeing and WHY you think it's wrong.

Then we are mostly in agreement. There are issues, but I feel that this thread and a lot others are overgrown by hyperbole and vast generalization of issues. Yes, there are issues, and yes, it should be looked at further, but it's not as black and white as has been stated here in the thread.

The next part is not aimed at your, Platinum, but more of a broader view of this thread...

Database setup is obviously a key to why people experience it differently, and I also think that some people are heavily influenced by confirmation bias. I'm not trying to downplay this as an issue, or stop focus on it, on the complete opposite, I encourage bug reports, since this is what I enjoy the game for most! I'm simply trying to balance the feedback a bit, since some of these things quickly turn into a mob of torches and pitchforks without need! There is enough polarization going on elsewhere in the world and we don't need this to be a "either you agree this is a broken feature or you think it's perfect" type of debate. Having a balanced view on things are fine.

Exactly proving my point, most of these players came up in smaller teams where they had the chance to play first team since they were younger. The big problem is often present in bigger teams, where those players do not get the chance to play first team from a young age, often do not get loaned, and just get stuck in the reserves team forever until they are too old to develop. Development that does not happen in B or reserves teams.

Moreover, you cannot try, again, to downplay the issue since you have witnessed 4 AI players grow and develop. The sample is insignificantly small. In order for the game to be realistic, hundreds of new players should come out in replacement to older ones, not 4 or 5.

In order to evaluate the situation OBJECTIVELY we would need an excel file with the exact number of players of a certain level at the start of the game, and then something like 10 years in the future. And this study has been done, I believe in this exact post, and it proved that the amount of good players decrease over time because of the development issue. This is a scientifically valid way of studying this phenomenon, not screenshotting 4 players and saying that at the end of the day it is not that big of a deal because 4 players made it in a database of thousands.

Nobody is doing any mobs of torches, we all just love playing the game and thus want to see important issues like this fixed.

Edited December 5, 2022 by abcdf

[Daveincid]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Malarkey73:

nor evidence that all is well.

Nobody in this thread wrote that everything works well, but it's definetly not that bad as some people mention

[XaW]

15 minutes ago, Malarkey73 said:

But overall I agree this is neither as bad as it appeared at first glance nor evidence that all is well.

Exactly, but I don't think anyone has said that all is well?

12 minutes ago, abcdf said:

Exactly proving my point, most of these players came up in smaller teams where they had the chance to play first team since they were younger. The big problem is often present in bigger teams, where those players do not get the chance to play first team from a young age, often do not get loaned, and just get stuck in the reserves team forever until they are too old to develop. Development that does not happen in B or reserves teams.

I think I showed that Pablo had the development you specifically mention here. But again, it's not as good as it should be, but not as bad as you portray it either.

13 minutes ago, abcdf said:

Moreover, you cannot try, again, to downplay the issue since you have witnessed 4 AI players grow and develop. The sample is insignificantly small. In order for the game to be realistic, hundreds of new players should come out in replacement to older ones, not 4 or 5.

Where have I downplayed it? It's very small sample, but it's my current game and gave a few examples only. I've specifically asked people to report their issues since it can vary with database setup? Both of you are creating paper tigers to tear them down. Why?

15 minutes ago, abcdf said:

In order to evaluate the situation OBJECTIVELY we would need an excel file with the exact number of players of a certain level at the start of the game, and then something like 10 years in the future. And this study has been done, I believe in this exact post, and it proved that the amount of good players decrease over time because of the development issue. This is a scientifically appropriate way to study this phenomenon, not screenshotting 4 players and saying that at the end of the day it is not that big of a deal because 4 players made it in a database of thousands.

Yes, and that's why I AGREE THAT THERE IS AN ISSUE. Don't know why that is so hard to graps? Either you only read parts of my responses, or I'm horribly bad at highlighting that I don't think everything is ok. Please re-read my posts here, because I DON'T THINK THIS IS WORKING AS IT SHOULD. I mean, do I have to increase the text size or bolden it?

17 minutes ago, abcdf said:

Nobody is doing any mobs of torches, we all just love playing the game and thus want to see important issues like this fixed.

You haven't been paying attention in the feedback thread, or just read this whole thread, have you? We've removed posts in here because people can't control their anger and went into name calling already. And I don't think you have read my posts if you don't think I wish to see this vastly improved! Other than some test saves, I don't think I've bought a player since FM18 or so, because I only play youth-only saves. This topic is for me the most important part of Football Manager as a whole, because it's what I focus on when i play. I've literally spent thousands of hours on youth development, so yes I do care, most likely more than most other people that this is sorted out. But there is a difference of petitioning for it to be fixed with bug reports, well thought out feedback, and suggestions to how it can be better vs throwing toys out of the pram and looking for pitchforks!

[abcdf]

41 minuti fa, XaW ha scritto:

I think I showed that Pablo had the development you specifically mention here. But again, it's not as good as it should be, but not as bad as you portray it either.

Ok, but if it happens one time out of fifty it is still unsatisfactory. How could it constitute a statistical proof on anything? Why are you trying to defend the indefensible. I mean, you should strive for a better game as well. Instead it looks like you just want to defend the developers at all costs (as if somebody attacked them, we just reported, again, a 2 year-old bug, without any insults or anything like that, for which we had to contribute OUR free time to find examples and report them (for free) and is still not fixed)

Not as bad as I portray it? In 2030 there are only teams full of 30 years old. Try to have a look at it yourself, launch a holiday game with the DEFAULT database and share your findings.

You give off the vibe of: chill SI, slow it down. I am enjoying the game, so it's not a problem if 30 other people in this post only aren't. I have found 1 newgen in the entire country of Spain that developed well, they are exhaggerating the problem. Let's wait for another 2 years to see it fixed.  I mean, I understand that you like the game as it is, but why do you feel the need to say that other people that aren't are just looking for pitchforks and overstating stuff, while in reality there is indisputable evidence that the problem IS prevalent and honestly it is becoming kind of shameful that it hasn't been solved in 2 years.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this post into a chaotic mess of people going after each other's ideas so let's get back to constructive feedback on the issue.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by abcdf

[Malarkey73]

11 minutes ago, XaW said:

Exactly, but I don't think anyone has said that all is well?

No I know.  The point I have been trying to raise is that even if the endpoints were correct the mechanism is still problematic. Another single example here is my save in 2027. Brighton have a 52 man squad.

Those who have actually played are with a single exception (Ashley Phillips) over 26 - (oops thats wrong Jeremy Sarmiento is 23 and has played 3 times)

 

The top youth prospect Daniel Pitchford (19) has never been loaned but has been two seasons sitting in first team never played. He has not been available for the youth team during that time - ie hasn't played at all.

Interestingly Jung Jung-Hyung was loaned to a Korean team for one year but now in first team he is also rotting (though playing internationals for Korea). Possibly he is the magic player in this squad of the roughly 30 youth to early 20s non playing team that may ever play for this team.

Maybe that is realism? maybe if I simulated another 4 years I could say look Jung Jung Hyung developed normally. But its ignoring my lived experience of the game that Brighton wouldn't behave this way... 

anyway that's my last word on this. I'm ill off work and spending waaay too much time on this...

[XaW]

4 minutes ago, abcdf said:

Ok, but if it happens one time out of fifty it is still unsatisfactory. How could it constitute a statistical proof on anything? Why are you trying to defend the indefensible. I mean, you should strive for a better game as well. Instead it looks like you just want to defend the developers at all costs (as if somebody attacked them, we just reported, again, a 2 year-old bug, without any insults or anything like that, for which we had to contribute OUR free time to find examples and report them (for free) and is still not fixed)

Once again, where am I defending anything? I said my personal opinion is that it's better than it was, but still not satisfactory. Are you reading my posts or just stuck in a loop?

6 minutes ago, abcdf said:

Not as bad as I portray it? In 2030 there are only teams full of 30 years old. Try to have a look at it yourself, launch a holiday game with the DEFAULT database and share your findings.

In your save, perhaps, but I don't see the same, as I've shown in here. That is why I want people to report it! Different setups can create different results.

7 minutes ago, abcdf said:

You give off the vibe of: chill SI, slow it down. I am enjoying the game, so it's not a problem if 30 other people in this post only aren't. I have found 1 newgen in the entire country of Spain that developed well, they are exhaggerating the problem. Let's wait for another 2 years to see it fixed.  I mean, I understand that you like the game as it is, but why do you feel the need to say that other people that aren't are just looking for pitchforks and overstating stuff, while in reality there is indisputable evidence that the problem IS prevalent and honestly it is becoming kind of shameful that it hasn't been solved in 2 years.

Where have I done so? When I report bugs? When I give my view in the feedback thread that I think this a key thing for SI to focus on? Where? I don't want SI to wait for anything here. I want SI to have this as their main focus! You are creating paper tigers, and I refuse to be one of them! I've written in multiple places here that I think the system needs more work, but you are acting like I've said it's perfect. NO! I don't think so. Why is this so hard for you to wrap your head around? I asked if I needed to increase the text size and embolden it, and I guess I have to; I DON'T THINK THIS IS WORKING AS WELL AS I WANT IT TO. Clear enough now?

[XaW]

8 minutes ago, Malarkey73 said:

No I know.  The point I have been trying to raise is that even if the endpoints were correct the mechanism is still problematic. Another single example here is my save in 2027. Brighton have a 52 man squad.

Those who have actually played are with a single exception (Ashley Phillips) over 26 - (oops thats wrong Jeremy Sarmiento is 23 and has played 3 times)

 

The top youth prospect Daniel Pitchford (19) has never been loaned but has been two seasons sitting in first team never played. He has not been available for the youth team during that time - ie hasn't played at all.

Interestingly Jung Jung-Hyung was loaned to a Korean team for one year but now in first team he is also rotting (though playing internationals for Korea). Possibly he is the magic player in this squad of the roughly 30 youth to early 20s non playing team that may ever play for this team.

Maybe that is realism? maybe if I simulated another 4 years I could say look Jung Jung Hyung developed normally. But its ignoring my lived experience of the game that Brighton wouldn't behave this way... 

anyway that's my last word on this. I'm ill off work and spending waaay too much time on this...

Yup, it's still an issue and should be improved. Exactly why I want people to upload saves highlighting the issue to SI to get more variants of it.

[Daveincid]

Some users should invest their time into proper data evaluation instead of spreading missinformations. I feel sorry for you @XaW!

How about posting proper data?

For example comparing CA-values of the pre-game editor and ingame after X years?

Pre-game editor:
U21 players with a CA130+ = 120
U21 players with a CA150+ = 9

Ingame in February 2037 (12 playable leagues in 12 Nations and 24 other top leagues as "view only": 
U21 players with a CA130+ = 90 (lower because of the size of the test db, not all players with a CA130+ were loaded in that setup)
U21 players with a CA150+ = 12

So there are actually even more U21 players with a CA150+ as in 2022....Player development IS NOT too slow, end of story.
But it is INBALANCED in terms of Nations. So England for example has only 1 player with a CA140+ in 2037 compared to 6 in the pre-game editor.

Why especially young english players do not develop their CA AND reputation quick enough?
1. The EPL is one of the best leagues in the world and especially financially the nr.1. So they always aim to buy the best players worldwide, regardless (most of the time) of Nationality.
2. If now other Nations are overpowered and produce more players which have Premier league-Level, they will be bought by english clubs which in the end lowers the chances for english players to get enough playing time. 
3. Mexico (2nd. Screenshot) has 6 players with a CA140+ in 2022 but 20 in 2037, 8! of them are playing in England

Ingame 2037 U21 players CA130+:


Mexican U21 players CA140+ in 2037:

[priority76]

@Daveincid Hi, is this on the default database or using your increased realism files?

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb priority76:

@Daveincid Hi, is this on the default database or using your increased realism files?

default. Mexico is fixed with my files

[albertocerdeira.4]

I am reviewing all the data I have, actually a league simulated until 2030 and, apart of the reputation problem, I think that the loan market as other of the most relevant areas for this issue.

 

Big teams care more about to make money from loans that from saving money of wages and develop new players.

 

It's as easy as see the first market, Bryan Gil, Tottenham player, is available on loan. They ask the full wages + 1,25 M€ if he plays or 3,25M€ if he don't plays.

 

This is as unreal as we all know most of loans are ONLY for a part of the wages, and it is completely unrealistic to see loans of very young players for an unreal amount of money.

 

The consequences of this? Players with 19 years stuck in B teams or without playing because they are not ready for the first team and the team asks for a big amount of money for the teams he is capable of playing.

 

Don't know if there is a topic in the bug tracker, but I think it could be fine to open it

[Daveincid]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

 

I am reviewing all the data I have, actually a league simulated until 2030 and, apart of the reputation problem, I think that the loan market as other of the most relevant areas for this issue.

 

If you have only 1 playable league then this isn't a surpize. The transfer market will only be simulated accurate in playable leagues. In such tiny setups it's even worse. 

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 1 minuto, Daveincid dijo:

If you have only 1 playable league then this isn't a surpize. The transfer market will only be simulated accurate in playable leagues. In such tiny setups it's even worse. 

I have the big 5 leagues as playable and 15 more as non playable loaded, but because my laptop wouldn't run more

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

I have the big 5 leagues as playable and 15 more as non playable loaded, but because my laptop wouldn't run more

The less leagues loaded, the less accurate the simulation. It was always like that. With only 5 playable leagues the transfer market won't be very well balanced but still better as with 1 league only

[Malarkey73]

29 minutes ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

The consequences of this? Players with 19 years stuck in B teams or without playing because they are not ready for the first team and the team asks for a big amount of money for the teams he is capable of playing.

Yes . A million times this. And quite apart from balance it makes hugely frustrating gameplay to have your DoF overrule your loans. So you fire him and the HoYD overrules you.

[fc.cadoni]

53 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

The less leagues loaded, the less accurate the simulation. It was always like that. With only 5 playable leagues the transfer market won't be very well balanced but still better as with 1 league only

One of the reason why I have wrote back, about being clear if it's loaded playable or view only. This make massive difference.

[abcdf]

4 ore fa, XaW ha scritto:

Once again, where am I defending anything? I said my personal opinion is that it's better than it was, but still not satisfactory. Are you reading my posts or just stuck in a loop?

In your save, perhaps, but I don't see the same, as I've shown in here. That is why I want people to report it! Different setups can create different results.

Where have I done so? When I report bugs? When I give my view in the feedback thread that I think this a key thing for SI to focus on? Where? I don't want SI to wait for anything here. I want SI to have this as their main focus! You are creating paper tigers, and I refuse to be one of them! I've written in multiple places here that I think the system needs more work, but you are acting like I've said it's perfect. NO! I don't think so. Why is this so hard for you to wrap your head around? I asked if I needed to increase the text size and embolden it, and I guess I have to; I DON'T THINK THIS IS WORKING AS WELL AS I WANT IT TO. Clear enough now?

Dude, I am not going to answer in detail because I do not want to fuel this meaningless debate with you. I think your agenda has been exposed enough troughout this post, I don't need to add anything. 

I'm sick and tired of having to battle through all these SI "defending" bots to get a game (for which I paid good money) fixed.

Good life

Edited December 5, 2022 by abcdf

[Dotsworthy]

3 hours ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

It's as easy as see the first market, Bryan Gil, Tottenham player, is available on loan. They ask the full wages + 1,25 M€ if he plays or 3,25M€ if he don't plays.

Yeah this is annoying. Unwanted expensive first team players sure, but under 23 players on modest wages it seems a little excessive.

3 hours ago, Daveincid said:

The less leagues loaded, the less accurate the simulation. It was always like that. With only 5 playable leagues the transfer market won't be very well balanced but still better as with 1 league only

In that case. If I have a youth prospect at league two level in England, I need league two as playable in order to get enough satisfactory loan offers? View Only I presume has much much less transfer activity?

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Dotsworthy:

In that case. If I have a youth prospect at league two level in England, I need league two as playable in order to get enough satisfactory loan offers? View Only I presume has much much less transfer activity?

in most cases yes. As you wrote: transfer activity is "much less" but not zero, so especially to improve player development in England I would load the first 2 if not 3 leagues as playable. 

[XaW]

3 hours ago, abcdf said:

Dude, I am not going to answer in detail because I do not want to fuel this meaningless debate with you. I think your agenda has been exposed enough troughout this post, I don't need to add anything. 

I'm sick and tired of having to battle through all these SI "defending" bots to get a game (for which I paid good money) fixed.

Good life

Good grief, you still didn't read my post, even though I enlarged the bit for you. Strange having to explain how I think the game has issues, but THEN get accused of defending the game.... 

Also, I'm apparently a bot. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone here...

[CFuller]

Despite ongoing computer issues, I've managed to get my latest simulation save up until the end of the 2032/2033 season. I've loaded just the top two divisions in each of the 'Big Five' European leagues, so it's not the ideal set-up, but it's the best I can do right now.

I'll have a closer look at the results tomorrow (or perhaps later in the week), but looking at the younger players who are playing for the leading national teams, it doesn't make good reading. Here's a run-down of how many players aged 23 and under - or aged 23 and under - have at least 1 international cap, compared to at the start of the game.

PLAYERS WITH	AGE 27 AND UNDER		AGE 23 AND UNDER
AT LEAST 1 CAP	Start	2033	Start	2033
England	42	6	13	2
France	32	7	10	0
Germany	30	12	7	1
Italy	38	4	15	0
Spain	51	8	18	1
Argentina	30	17	8	7
Belgium	23	17	10	4
Brazil	27	13	6	5
Netherlands	34	4	13	0
Portugal	28	9	10	1

Once again, I am over a decade into a new save, and the top national teams are still being completely dominated by real players - mostly in their 30s. You rarely see any young players get capped before the age of 21.

Italy is the most extreme example of this. Of the four youngest players who have an international cap, two are real players - Wisdom Amey (debut aged 21) and Simone Pafundi (debut aged 27). Only two newgens have been capped by Italy - aged 24 and 25 respectively - and they have NINE caps between them.

As you can see, these two aren't bad players at all. Moretti was performing very well for Atalanta in Serie A for a couple of years, but he didn't get capped until his second season in Saudi Arabia. Rondoni was capped one year ago while he was at Arsenal, and despite being a strong performer for a Rennes team who've just qualified for the Champions League, he hasn't played for the Azzurri since.

Now here's another Italian newgen who has developed pretty nicely and surely should have had a few caps by now, though his career trajectory is a very strange one:

Sforzini's career began with a promising run of Serie A games for Napoli when he was just 16-17, but then he spent about a season-and-a-half on loan at Bari, where he featured in nine Serie B games. Then he returned to Napoli for two years in the wilderness, where he made no first-team appearances - and apparently didn't even play at all in 2028/2029. (No serious injuries either; he didn't pick up an injury that lasted more than a week until he was 24.)

And yet, despite doing practically nothing at the top level for four years, Sforzini still earned a £26million to Benfica, for whom he featured sporadically over the next three years. And yet that somehow convinced Premier League champions Manchester City to pay £45million for him and use him in more than half their games of another championship season! 

FM's transfer AI has always been a bit wonky, and this pretty much sums it up.

But once again, the issue here isn't that players' attributes are too slow to develop. It's their relatively low reputations compared to older players that consistently hold them back, while allowing those older players to stay at the top level for longer than they perhaps should. As long as the AI's squad-building and team selection logic continues to heavily prioritise reputation over development, we'll continue to see clubs and national teams with ridiculously old squads once we get deep into a save.

I'm looking to upgrade to a new system pretty soon that will hopefully be able to simulate more leagues and more levels. If this issue is still prevalent in larger save set-ups, it will be a huge disappointment, and will put me off starting any kind of long-term career on FM23.

Edited December 6, 2022 by CFuller
Atalanta were in Serie A, obviously, not Serie B.

[Platinum]

2 hours ago, CFuller said:

Despite ongoing computer issues, I've managed to get my latest simulation save up until the end of the 2032/2033 season. I've loaded just the top two divisions in each of the 'Big Five' European leagues, so it's not the ideal set-up, but it's the best I can do right now.

I'll have a closer look at the results tomorrow (or perhaps later in the week), but looking at the younger players who are playing for the leading national teams, it doesn't make good reading. Here's a run-down of how many players aged 23 and under - or aged 23 and under - have at least 1 international cap, compared to at the start of the game.

PLAYERS WITH	AGE 27 AND UNDER		AGE 23 AND UNDER
AT LEAST 1 CAP	Start	2033	Start	2033
England	42	6	13	2
France	32	7	10	0
Germany	30	12	7	1
Italy	38	4	15	0
Spain	51	8	18	1
Argentina	30	17	8	7
Belgium	23	17	10	4
Brazil	27	13	6	5
Netherlands	34	4	13	0
Portugal	28	9	10	1

Once again, I am over a decade into a new save, and the top national teams are still being completely dominated by real players - mostly in their 30s. You rarely see any young players get capped before the age of 21.

Italy is the most extreme example of this. Of the four youngest players who have an international cap, two are real players - Wisdom Amey (debut aged 21) and Simone Pafundi (debut aged 27). Only two newgens have been capped by Italy - aged 24 and 25 respectively - and they have NINE caps between them.

As you can see, these two aren't bad players at all. Moretti was performing very well for Atalanta in Serie B for a couple of years, but he didn't get capped until his second season in Saudi Arabia. Rondoni was capped one year ago while he was at Arsenal, and despite being a strong performer for a Rennes team who've just qualified for the Champions League, he hasn't played for the Azzurri since.

Now here's another Italian newgen who has developed pretty nicely and surely should have had a few caps by now, though his career trajectory is a very strange one:

Sforzini's career began with a promising run of Serie A games for Napoli when he was just 16-17, but then he spent about a season-and-a-half on loan at Bari, where he featured in nine Serie B games. Then he returned to Napoli for two years in the wilderness, where he made no first-team appearances - and apparently didn't even play at all in 2028/2029. (No serious injuries either; he didn't pick up an injury that lasted more than a week until he was 24.)

And yet, despite doing practically nothing at the top level for four years, Sforzini still earned a £26million to Benfica, for whom he featured sporadically over the next three years. And yet that somehow convinced Premier League champions Manchester City to pay £45million for him and use him in more than half their games of another championship season! 

FM's transfer AI has always been a bit wonky, and this pretty much sums it up.

But once again, the issue here isn't that players' attributes are too slow to develop. It's their relatively low reputations compared to older players that consistently hold them back, while allowing those older players to stay at the top level for longer than they perhaps should. As long as the AI's squad-building and team selection logic continues to heavily prioritise reputation over development, we'll continue to see clubs and national teams with ridiculously old squads once we get deep into a save.

I'm looking to upgrade to a new system pretty soon that will hopefully be able to simulate more leagues and more levels. If this issue is still prevalent in larger save set-ups, it will be a huge disappointment, and will put me off starting any kind of long-term career on FM23.

Yep your findings are the same as mine. Very odd transfer, loan and playing time decisions lead to newgens (in the big 5 european nations) not playing enough so not playing for their national teams. In one of my saves I found a 195 CA newgen player who was by far the best player in the world in 2031 and got the goals, assists and avg rating to back it up have a lower reputation than most elite 'real' players. He played for Real Madrid - it took way too long to for a top team to buy him btw. The reputation for newgens has to increase faster somehow - the challenge is that this has a knock on effect on so many other areas of the game including transfers, starting line ups, club vision, player happiness and more.

Tbf though I have only simulated a 5 nation database but I think (?) this is a similar setup what most people play with. As you say I think this is a very big issue for longer term saves. Hopefully the bug reports and the interest in the issue mean it can get solved soon.

[nepejke]

Has anyone found a way to save regens from dying in B teams ?

[rp1966]

This thread makes for sad reading.  The changes to the decline of older players in FM22 was not properly accounted for and still hasn't been compensated for in FM23.  But this is a subset of the wider issue that every system that is based on reputation is broken to some degree.  And worse, that it appears that SI have been leaning more heavily into reputation all around the game as a shortcut to realism in the early seasons.

The trouble with reputation, whether it applies to players, managers or teams, is that it is a long term measure, but a large chunk of the decision making in the game needs to be shorter term - a player performing well in the U18s needs a chance in the first team' the young manager who's got back to back promotions in the lower leagues needs to attract the attention of bigger clubs quicker.  Basically the game needs a short term 'hype' measure that runs alongside reputation that can rise and fall extremely rapidly and affect decisions that become sterile under the reputation system.

Basically as the introduction of poor touch and more mistakes has added a bit of chaos to the ME; 'hype' is needed to add some chaos into player development and player and manager movements.

As an example of how this would help one scenario in this thread - and old player (let's call him Lewandowski) may have sky-high reputation from being a top player for many years, but would have low hype as he's seen as in the twilight of his career - this would stop him getting a move to Liverpool at 37   (yes, real FM22 transfer) in favour of a younger, lower reputation, but high hype player.

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by rp1966

[TheAwesomeGem]

The change of Youth player gaining reputation fast was not true at all. No changes were made at all with the youth reputation. I don't understand why it's on the changelist. Did they forgot to merge the PR? Forgot to commit? Reverted the commit? Merged for a different release branch? No one knows. But we absolutely need Youth Reputation to fix without having to resort to DB edits. Improving the loan market would also improve this too. Development is fine.

[XaW]

9 hours ago, CFuller said:

But once again, the issue here isn't that players' attributes are too slow to develop. It's their relatively low reputations compared to older players that consistently hold them back, while allowing those older players to stay at the top level for longer than they perhaps should. As long as the AI's squad-building and team selection logic continues to heavily prioritise reputation over development, we'll continue to see clubs and national teams with ridiculously old squads once we get deep into a save.

Yeah, this is the issue, I think. Keep posting these things in the tracker and hopefully SI will improve things. 

One thing I am wondering, as I'm not far enough into a save yet. Will this rectify itself when all real players are gone, so we are left with only newgens? They should be treated the same, so perhaps the transition phase is the actual issue? My rig is not powerful enough to run big simulations now, but if you get good one, it would be interesting to see if the age of national teams goes down again in say 2050 to a "normal state".

[CFuller]

4 minutes ago, XaW said:

Yeah, this is the issue, I think. Keep posting these things in the tracker and hopefully SI will improve things. 

One thing I am wondering, as I'm not far enough into a save yet. Will this rectify itself when all real players are gone, so we are left with only newgens? They should be treated the same, so perhaps the transition phase is the actual issue? My rig is not powerful enough to run big simulations now, but if you get good one, it would be interesting to see if the age of national teams goes down again in say 2050 to a "normal state".

I'll get a report up on the tracker some time today. I think Sforzini's career shows some really odd AI logic, but I'll look around for some other examples that might help SI.

The furthest I got in a simulation was 2037, and there were some signs of things correcting themselves. But yes, it'll be really interesting to see what happens once all the undroppable behemoths like Saka and Bellingham have finally retired and we're left with just newgens. I don't have any real desire to start a new save any time soon, so I'd be happy to run a long-term simulation as soon as I can.

[Platinum]

25 minutes ago, XaW said:

One thing I am wondering, as I'm not far enough into a save yet. Will this rectify itself when all real players are gone, so we are left with only newgens?

I've wondered this too but havent done a simulation to check it yet. I'll probably do it today now

Edited December 6, 2022 by Platinum

[Spurs08]

There is also the possibility here that things will change in real life.

The fundamental issue is that the top leagues - especially in England - have become so dominant financially over any other league. They also don't have any harsh restrictions on foreign player quotas etc. So over time, particularly as global scouting improves, they become filled with the top potential talent from around the globe. As a consequence their average quality increases, but there's fewer options available to the National Team since young domestic players aren't able to keep up. Again, England is affected worse since their younger, lower-rep players are sometimes prevented from moving abroad due to work permit rules post-Brexit, but the change is seen across the top European leagues. We then also get the phenomenon commonly seen in FM of a more diverse range of teams winning major international tournaments.

It is perfectly plausible that things will go this way in real life, that in the 2030s the top national teams will have a higher average age and we'll be looking back on this as a golden era of English youth development. If the conditions to bring us towards that path are already in place, then it makes sense FM would be biased in this direction. Perhaps it is somewhat overstated because teams are too fussy abiut the financials on loan deals, but otherwise this seems like it may well be a reasonable if inadvertent prediction of the future of football.

[Neil Brock]

Could really do with Bug Tracker save game examples of this - also analysis on which players should be called up that aren't for various squads. 

Again something we are looking at internally, but any examples in specific Bug Tracker issues would be appreciated. Thanks. 

[Daveincid]

A good measurement would be the current world cup.
I was suprized how old the avg. age of the teams are. If you go further and check the avg. age of the starting XI it get's even more clear.

I've done some research about it (date 28.11.22):

Avg. age of all squads: 26.9
Avg. starting XI of all squads: 28.1

In 36 games there were a total of 43 apps of players under the age of 21 (including subs). Which was way lower as I thought.

At least at this years world cup the tendency goes to "more experienced squads. "

Feel free to check the data yourself:
https://www.transfermarkt.com/weltmeisterschaft-2022/teilnehmer/pokalwettbewerb/WM22/saison_id/2021

Again, I'm not saying there is no issue, there are definetly issues.
 

[Dotsworthy]

31 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

Could really do with Bug Tracker save game examples of this - also analysis on which players should be called up that aren't for various squads. 

Again something we are looking at internally, but any examples in specific Bug Tracker issues would be appreciated. Thanks. 

We have a ticket in the bug tracker that I raised a while back. People are welcome to continue adding examples there.

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Dotsworthy

[Spurs08]

30 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

A good measurement would be the current world cup.
I was suprized how old the avg. age of the teams are. If you go further and check the avg. age of the starting XI it get's even more clear.

I've done some research about it (date 28.11.22):

Avg. age of all squads: 26.9
Avg. starting XI of all squads: 28.1

In 36 games there were a total of 43 apps of players under the age of 21 (including subs). Which was way lower as I thought.

At least at this years world cup the tendency goes to "more experienced squads. "

Feel free to check the data yourself:
https://www.transfermarkt.com/weltmeisterschaft-2022/teilnehmer/pokalwettbewerb/WM22/saison_id/2021

Again, I'm not saying there is no issue, there are definetly issues.
 

I do think part of it is just that so many people on this forum are from England, and our national team currently has a squad with an unusually high number of talented young players, which people then assume must be the norm.

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Spurs08:

I do think part of it is just that so many people on this forum are from England, and our national team currently has a squad with an unusually high number of talented young players, which people then assume must be the norm.

Could be. The other thing which is cleary different in the game vs. real life is that managers do not think about the next generation already. IRL manages sometimes nominate youngsters just that they are part of the team at a young age and get a feeling how it is to be in the national team. This is not the case in the game, which takes "only" reputation and current ability into account. 

[Malarkey73]

2 hours ago, Spurs08 said:

I do think part of it is just that so many people on this forum are from England, and our national team currently has a squad with an unusually high number of talented young players, which people then assume must be the norm.

This is true. WC squads are actually quite old IRL. But in analysing this problem we shouldn't focus too much just on International Caps in game - though it's admittedly a quick and easy metric to compare. It's just the most extreme metric. And just the tip of the iceberg.

If you simply scroll through many big team squads (especially Premier League) after a handful of years you see they are totally bizarre.

 

[Arnar]

France had 14 players under 25 in their squad, 4 over 30 years(5 if benzema is included) 3 of those are 35 and older.

england has 10 under 25, 5 over 30(oldest 32)

Brazil has 12 under 25, 9 over 30(oldest 39)

Portugal 11 under 25, 5 over 30(oldest 39)

Spain 12 under 25, 7 over 30.

So i would say that the squads are balanced versus ingame.

i havent played fm23 but in 22 i took over france and won the 2030 wc. And i noticed in that game that the standard of the new gens was lacking so much that i picked only 1 new gen to the squad.

i loaded the game, its in 2032 and quickly looked at spain, france and england.

england had 3 new gens in their squad.

france had 2.

spain had 4.

also im not really using my computer that much atm so i could buy the game. Setup a game and sim it into the future.

question is how many leagues would be optimal to get the “best results”?

i have not had any problem playing a save with:

45 nations loaded, big 5 leagues have 3 leagues loaded and most of the others have atleast 2. Player count is ~203000 in my 2032 save.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Arnar

[Malarkey73]

4 minutes ago, Arnar said:

question is how many leagues would be optimal to get the “best results”?

 

I've read people on this thread arguing about loading more leagues to get a "better" or more "accurate"  simulation.

This seems odd thinking to me .. as I would have said the more accurate simulation of how the game actually plays for most people would be to use the setup that most people use . e.g. pick a top 5 league team and use the defaults.

 

[DMVian]

On 04/12/2022 at 19:28, Dotsworthy said:

From my own experience I've had no real problem developing youngsters in FM22 or FM23, where players have good personalities. My issues are with problem children, who have poor ambition, determination or professionalism. The original solution was mentoring which was nerfed in FM22 and has an effect in severely limiting the ability to fix players who have bad personalities. The system was too easy to get an army of 21 year old modal citizens beforehand and ultimately the real world has plenty of Ravel Morrisons but mentoring feels a bit useless right now.

 

This is a really good point.  Playing youth isn't an automatic future of success.

Plenty of budget strapped clubs rely on youth revolutions and it just turns out some players can't hack it. Every club in the world would rather have a young, cheap squad, but sometimes you have to go with proven players. Going young often results in crashing out.

I feel like mentoring has been nerfed a bit, but I still get occasional emails about players picking up good traits. Less than before, but some. That seems more realistic.

[StevehFC]

Has anyone used the in-game editor to to change a player's current ability? Considering doing this if the youth development for longer saves is still broken. 

[Arnar]

2 hours ago, Malarkey73 said:

I've read people on this thread arguing about loading more leagues to get a "better" or more "accurate"  simulation.

This seems odd thinking to me .. as I would have said the more accurate simulation of how the game actually plays for most people would be to use the setup that most people use . e.g. pick a top 5 league team and use the defaults.

 

Well its always going to be arguments for either setup. 
 

I just mentioned that i could run bigger setup, since there were poster saying that they would do it if they had the computer for it. 

[Neil Brock]

49 minutes ago, DMVian said:

This is a really good point.  Playing youth isn't an automatic future of success.

Plenty of budget strapped clubs rely on youth revolutions and it just turns out some players can't hack it. Every club in the world would rather have a young, cheap squad, but sometimes you have to go with proven players. Going young often results in crashing out.

I feel like mentoring has been nerfed a bit, but I still get occasional emails about players picking up good traits. Less than before, but some. That seems more realistic.

I think there is an element of this - we've set an expectation with previous FM's that any player with the right arm around them can reach their potential. The real life reality is that sometimes even with the best will in the world, they just can't. 

That's not to say 'everything is perfect, so stop talking about it ' - it's more just things have been changed to try and make things realistic - that players can develop beyond the age of 24 and they aren't maxed out to their potential at say 21 if you do everything 'right'. It's just that upward curve is slower which has thrown managers who are used to rapidly increasing players. 

[Arnar]

Just now, StevehFC said:

Has anyone used the in-game editor to to change a player's current ability? Considering doing this if the youth development for longer saves is still broken. 

You can edit current ability and potential ability in it. You can edit almost everything except for birthdays and such.

[HurkaDurk69]

5 hours ago, Arnar said:

You can edit current ability and potential ability in it. You can edit almost everything except for birthdays and such.

unless they have removed it in this years PGE, you can change birthdays

I am stupid, I meant IGE

Edited December 6, 2022 by HurkaDurk69
i am stupid