Is there far too much meaningless interaction in FM?

[FrazT]

3 hours ago, Barside said:

The best thing anyone can do with AssMan advice is switch it off as soon as they load their first save, it is an utterly worthless feature & does make you wonder if the AI managers are making in match tactical changes based on similar logic.

There are one or two bits of advice that I do sometimes take- especially about a player who had been booked and to get him to ease off tackles and comments on the number of fouls given away.  On the whole, however, most of the advice is pointless and so ignored.

[Fosse]

1 minute ago, FrazT said:

There are one or two bits of advice that I do sometimes take- especially about a player who had been booked and to get him to ease off tackles and comments on the number of fouls given away.  On the whole, however, most of the advice is pointless and so ignored.

The worst is that "we should try and put more crosses because we're winning most of our headers today", it totally lacks any context and it makes me wonder why that piece of 'advice' was even put into the game.

[russell9]

This is what FM has been doing for the past few years,
1. Introduce new "exciting feature" as marketing gimmick.
2. This new exciting feature is either a rehash or reskin of existing feature or it's mechanic is poorly done/unrealistic/broken and etc.
3. This "exciting feature" will then left in it's broken state and never be bother again despite numerous complains from users.
4. Then next year, introduce more exciting feature (marketing gimmick) to sell the game.
5. Years after years, there we are the game is full of "exciting feature" in broken state.

[GreenTriangle]

15 hours ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

I'm into season 7 with Liverpool, never once changed from 4-4-2 on attack mentality, won countless titles and major trophies, yet every single pre-match "tactical advice" I'm told:

4-4-2 > 4-2-3-1 would be more suitable for our upcoming match.

Attack > Control would give us a better chance of winning

And so on… just meaningless changes for no reason other than to justify that part's own existence.

That's how AI "sees" the game.  Based on very simple mechanics and not always logically justifiable. Some people claim that AI is able to "read" their tactics. It would be enough to read the the assisant manager' advices (who is simply an AI manager) to realize that if "he" reads them "he" can not logically exploit them.

[WM]

 Boring repetitive chore with no positive benefit to gameplay. There is simply no need for it.

It would be so much better if you were only asked to respond to a few key questions in a season, and each had a massive impact.

Edited September 15, 2018 by WM

[..Valhalla..]

8 hours ago, russell9 said:

This is what FM has been doing for the past few years,
1. Introduce new "exciting feature" as marketing gimmick.
2. This new exciting feature is either a rehash or reskin of existing feature or it's mechanic is poorly done/unrealistic/broken and etc.
3. This "exciting feature" will then left in it's broken state and never be bother again despite numerous complains from users.
4. Then next year, introduce more exciting feature (marketing gimmick) to sell the game.
5. Years after years, there we are the game is full of "exciting feature" in broken state.

I'd say you're not far wrong. It's all fluff and filler, that much is true. SI probably have obligations from the publisher to make a "new" game every year, which includes a certain amount of minimum new content to justify a full price game being released annually.

I've seen it mentioned many times that SI should just "skip a year and release a major update this year rather than a new full game", but that's never going to happen. Not ever. 

[RBKalle]

33 minuti fa, ..Valhalla.. ha scritto:

I'd say you're not far wrong. It's all fluff and filler, that much is true. SI probably have obligations from the publisher to make a "new" game every year, which includes a certain amount of minimum new content to justify a full price game being released annually.

I've seen it mentioned many times that SI should just "skip a year and release a major update this year rather than a new full game", but that's never going to happen. Not ever. 

They don't need to skip a year though.

They could just do what they did with the old "Season xx/xx" editions in the early CM days. A database update, a couple of fixes to the most prominent issues reported for the previous iteration, while they keep the bulk of their workforce on a 20-something-months project to FINALLY redo from scratch (or from a very low-level point) some of the key features that have clearly run their course already and/or are in need of an actual overhaul.

Instead, we get a few marketing gimmicks... Like a shaky Jenga tower you keep on adding blocks to, despite it being clear it's going to topple sooner than later. Or, best case scenario, it's still standing for a while but it's the gaming equivalent of the lovecraftian Whateley farmhouse...

[Ber-T]

One issue that I have with media interaction is regarding trials, it may be only an issue for me as a lower league manager without much scouting budget and so bring in a lot of players on trial. A considerable amount of my lower league media interaction is about players coming in on trial and whether or not I'll sign them, roughly speaking. I have an issue with this because I don't think trialists are very publicised and it seems a bit unrealistic to be asked about specific players on trial when I get so many in and constantly having to say "I don't know, this is why we've taken them on trial", or something. Apart from that I don't have any specific issues with the interaction, I only wish that it was more dynamic in a way even though I don't know how feasable it is to achieve that. I'd certainly not like it to go backwards in depth as I feel that's what FM touch is for and even if it's not perfect it's something to work from, not roll back.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, RBKalle said:

They don't need to skip a year though.

They could just do what they did with the old "Season xx/xx" editions in the early CM days. A database update, a couple of fixes to the most prominent issues reported for the previous iteration, while they keep the bulk of their workforce on a 20-something-months project to FINALLY redo from scratch (or from a very low-level point) some of the key features that have clearly run their course already and/or are in need of an actual overhaul.

Instead, we get a few marketing gimmicks... Like a shaky Jenga tower you keep on adding blocks to, despite it being clear it's going to topple sooner than later. Or, best case scenario, it's still standing for a while but it's the gaming equivalent of the lovecraftian Whateley farmhouse...

So exactly what SI are doing now. All that has changed is the naming convention.

[GreenTriangle]

6 hours ago, WM said:

 Boring repetitive chore with no positive benefit to gameplay. There is simply no need for it.

It would be so much better if you were only asked to respond to a few key questions in a season, and each had a massive impact.

  A lot of people talk about "tactics".  But what is a tactic? "Tactic = an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end". What is the goal in football?  To win. Matches, promotions, trophies, fame ... and money. Some peole say "look, I use 4-4-2, control mentality, fluid shape, advanced playmakers, wingers, complete forwards, attack duties, close down lore, dribble more, pass into space ... and this is my tactic". No, this a part of a tactic.  The way they use the abilities and weaknesses of their players is also part of the their tactics.  The way they use the mental-psychological characteristics of their own players, their own coaches, and (why not) their board is also a part of their tactics.  The way they use the weaknesses and specific characteristics of their opponent teams is also part of their tactics. The way they use the media is also a part of their tactics. And this is the problem. In real life who is able to handle in a smart way relation with media  has higher chances to receive larger funds (sponsorships and others). A better relationship with the media means more "fame", more money, more good players who wants to play for your club.  But to get this done, the manager needs to attend all press conferences even when they are stupid and boring. Is this implemented in FM ? I don't know.  For now, interaction with the media seems to bring no gain,  or at least no obvious gain.

Interaction between manager and players is based on the same principles.  Sometimes it is necessary to tolerate all kinds of nonsense as long as  their tolerance allows the achievement of a goal.  But in many FM cases is not clear  what are the goals of the players, for example. Sometimes they seem to act against their own benefit.  That's the big problem.  How can be achieved a goal when the game generates randomly all kinds of masochistic attitudes AND the game  does not offer enough options to manage this situation ?

[RBKalle]

16 ore fa, Barside ha scritto:

So exactly what SI are doing now. All that has changed is the naming convention.

I don't remember "972 new features" being promoted from CM2 to CM97-98 though...

Clearly the game has evolved so much it'd be difficult to justify, from a PR standpoint, the release of a crude data update with a handful of minor changes, but I maintain it'd benefit the franchise in the long run, provided the New and Improved game isn't a complete mess. But with a much longer time to develop it (assuming it's not started from Line 1 the day after the release of the FM 2019-20 Data Update) it's a feasible task.

All is fine and good, FM is still playable and enjoyable, but for how many years have we been complaining about the same(ish) stuff? There's a point where you can't just remodel the same thing over and over again anymore... 

 

[Ventricity]

I play FM because it is a really good tactics simulator. It's not a social dynamics simulator. The format just aren't very vell suited to be that, but for some reason this aspect of the game has continued to grow to something that actually takes away from the core gameplay. You could say that social dynamics are also part of the tactical aspect in some way, but that is really reaching because 1) it has very little impact on your success in game and 2) if I wanted to play a social simulator I would rather play a game where the format is specialized for that. It is better for FM to concentrate on doing what they do best.

I can't wait to have to manage what food the players can eat, deciding if they are allowed to see their girlfriends before matches and be mindful not to forget their birthdays.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Ventricity

[talhak]

Press conferences, team talks, and player interactions are the stuff that every manager has to cope with. So I think it should be in the game (full-flat one); but of course, as every single aspect of the game, it may be improved in terms of AI and variety of questions/interactions. To be fair, it is improving year after year as well as other mechanics of the game. On the other hand, these things quiet depend on the improvement of technology. While making something more complex, it becomes harder to keep it consistent especially when the number of the features that affect the learning of machine is increased.

Edited September 16, 2018 by talhak

[XaW]

22 hours ago, Ventricity said:

and be mindful not to forget their birthdays.

Watch out! Yaya is paying attention to this!

[scass]

On 15/09/2018 at 18:18, GreenTriangle said:

  A lot of people talk about "tactics".  But what is a tactic? "Tactic = an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end". What is the goal in football?  To win. Matches, promotions, trophies, fame ... and money. Some peole say "look, I use 4-4-2, control mentality, fluid shape, advanced playmakers, wingers, complete forwards, attack duties, close down lore, dribble more, pass into space ... and this is my tactic". No, this a part of a tactic. 

That's very true - saying that it's going to be a tough game, or that you're not confident can sometimes spur a reaction from players. But overall, what you're describing -  the overlap between interaction and dynamics - seems to have a disproportionate influence on how the team plays. There is a somewhat unreal sense in which the way your team plays has less to do with how good they are, how well you've developed them, or the tactics you use, than it has to do with how good they're feeling on a particular day. I've  had a team win a ECC game 4-0, and all experience a dramatic drop in morale. The reason seems most likely to be a player sent off, who objected to his fine, but when he was told it was a standard punishment, he said he understood it. But then his morale dropped (after that) to "Slightly poor", and everyone else dropped in morale too. No-one had anything as a negative that would explain it. The whole thing seemed arbitrary. You might say that how you manage that is part of the game, and it is, but I didn't buy the game to deal with random nonsense like this.

There are loads of managers who make a lot of noise, be they late-period Jose Mourinho, second Chelsea season Conte or Neil Warnock - but it's generally negative in the way they do it.  Klopp, on the other hand, has got it down to a fine art. But I don't think that's how people want to play the game, reading this thread.

Edited September 21, 2018 by scass
posted before finished in error

[kingjericho]

All interactions save for player chats are basically a waste of time. The only reason I don't permanently switch to FMT is because of training, because the time I waste with interactions, even with the Ass Man doing a lot of things, is way too much.

[KingCanary]

It is also confusing and mildly dispiriting to congratulate a player on scoring his first goal for his country and randomly see them go from Very Good to Poor morale. I just can't get my head around a situation where a player in your team who you have a decent relationship with would be put out by a call to say 'congrats on your first international goal!'

[Dirty_ACE]

FM is supposed to be a simulation, which means it needs to have logical but also realistic responses/outcomes that you would have in real life. This is something you do not get from a lot of interactions currently. It feels like they're there to just beef up the amount of so called "options/features" that the player has access to. It's something similar that has happened with the latest Fallout game. You have all these options for interactions but in reality like 3/4 of them are completely pointless and don't lead to anything of substance. It gives you an illusion that there's depth to the game but there really isn't.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Dirty_ACE

[Guest]

TBF all interactions in any game are an illusion as we are yet to see a simulated intelligence being able to pass the Turing test.

[oblongata21]

On 15/09/2018 at 00:02, ..Valhalla.. said:

My ass man tells me to change virtually every tactical instruction before each match. Formation, mentality, duties, shape, instructions (I think? - not on the game at the minute), and as you say there is no reason whatsoever for doing so, just CHANGE them damn you  

 

I love when you actually do change them and 30 seconds later they ask you to change it back to what you had it as originally. The best one is when youre playing direct with long passes etc, and they tell you to retain possesion and then a couple of minutes later they want you to revert back to retaining possesion and shorter passes lol

[oblongata21]

22 hours ago, KingCanary said:

It is also confusing and mildly dispiriting to congratulate a player on scoring his first goal for his country and randomly see them go from Very Good to Poor morale. I just can't get my head around a situation where a player in your team who you have a decent relationship with would be put out by a call to say 'congrats on your first international goal!'

Or when your players scores 4 goals in a match and you tell him "good job" and he gets angry at you.

[scass]

2 hours ago, oblongata21 said:

Or when your players scores 4 goals in a match and you tell him "good job" and he gets angry at you.

The whole team dynamics aspect needs to be looked at. That much is clear from this thread. Players' "morale" and "happiness" seems way over-emphasised to me. 

[forameuss]

15 hours ago, Dirty_ACE said:

FM is supposed to be a simulation, which means it needs to have logical but also realistic responses/outcomes that you would have in real life. This is something you do not get from a lot of interactions currently. It feels like they're there to just beef up the amount of so called "options/features" that the player has access to. It's something similar that has happened with the latest Fallout game. You have all these options for interactions but in reality like 3/4 of them are completely pointless and don't lead to anything of substance. It gives you an illusion that there's depth to the game but there really isn't.

The "simulation" term is a bit of a red herring now.  It's used on both sides - "You have to have this as it's a simulation"/"You can't have this, it's a simulation".  If the game was a true simulation, it'd probably be incredibly tedious, and appeal to very few.  The balance is always going to be to make it feel realistic, while still remaining fun.  I don't think interactions are particularly realistic (nor should they be too realistic, as that sounds just as tedious) but they're not particularly fun either.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

On 15/09/2018 at 03:01, russell9 said:

This is what FM has been doing for the past few years,
1. Introduce new "exciting feature" as marketing gimmick.
2. This new exciting feature is either a rehash or reskin of existing feature or it's mechanic is poorly done/unrealistic/broken and etc.
3. This "exciting feature" will then left in it's broken state and never be bother again despite numerous complains from users.
4. Then next year, introduce more exciting feature (marketing gimmick) to sell the game.
5. Years after years, there we are the game is full of "exciting feature" in broken state.

I think step 4 is "Polish said feature to an acceptable standard that it should have been in when launched."

Was the case with board expectations, player chats, the introduction of sports scientists and other staffs (I forget which one, didn't have much of an impact - you could hire whoever to do it). It's like an extended beta with some of these. :P 

[Dirty_ACE]

On 25/09/2018 at 05:32, forameuss said:

The "simulation" term is a bit of a red herring now.  It's used on both sides - "You have to have this as it's a simulation"/"You can't have this, it's a simulation".  If the game was a true simulation, it'd probably be incredibly tedious, and appeal to very few.  The balance is always going to be to make it feel realistic, while still remaining fun.  I don't think interactions are particularly realistic (nor should they be too realistic, as that sounds just as tedious) but they're not particularly fun either.

I agree with you. The game needs to be a simulation but also to a point and after that it also needs to be enjoyable/fun. A bit of tediousness is not necessarily a bad thing but the balance needs to be right. Also, to make it less tedious certain aspects of the game just need to be straight to just be clear cut so that the player isn't doing so much guess work. That's where a lot of tediousness comes in, when you have to constantly be second guessing something that doesn't need to be. I guess overall what I'm trying to say is that the game needs to not just have depth but meaningful depth.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Dirty_ACE

[Icy]

Three years later and after the new improved press conferences... I'd say the overall feeling is still the same despite the attempts from SI to improve it.

The reason I'm refloating this old thread is because it came up after a search about delegating press conferences as I can't stand them anymore.

In my last save, I have been playing 6 seasons with Crewe, from Sunday league reputation in League 1 to 4th in the Premier with good success. Playing it as realistic as I could (think on LLM rules) and part of the task was attending to all the press conferences, team talks, pregame tunnel interviews, etc. While it was ok for a few seasons, it's now something very boring as I have probably already seen all the different questions and conversations dozens of times, I can even answer now without reading the question and even worse, I have learn how to manipulate the press, my players and my opponents and it's probably part of my success, to have an highly motivated team, that never becomes nervous or complacent, that loves me and has me as favourite personal etc. The press also loves me as I'm always there for them.

Now as I'm bored of my success with Crewe (maybe one day I'll go back to this save to try to win the CL), I want to start a journeyman save again from scratch, again with Sunday league reputation and from the lowest tier this time. But when I think on going through all the press releases again uff... to the point that I think about moving to FMT instead and to avoid all the press interaction all together, but I like other parts of full fat like a custom db with more lower leagues, training, u23 and u18, tactics knowledge, etc. I could also just send my AM to the press, but... then my manager profile "Media handling" attribute goes down to zero and it will **** off my board or damage my chances of being hired in the future. 

As to build a module that feels fresh for in game years it's not possible, and sooner or later it will repeat itself (and don't say it's realistic and that is why it's in the game, as its like saying that driving your car every day 1 hour to the training field is also realistic and should be in the GAME). I guess the perfect middle point in my opinion would be to have less frequent press releases. Maybe to make it more like in FMT, only when you have a big game or something like that, instead of 3 or 4 per week when you are in the premier, making you to expend more time clicking on the repetitive answers than actually playing games. Else at least delegating press conferences to your staff, shouldn't negatively affect your manager profile as it doesn't affect if you delegate training or scouting (or make it optional).

Is anybody really enjoying the press conferences after a few seasons? or is most of people just delegating them? and if so, does having a zero media handling attribute affect you at all? I have found a thread from an older version saying that he was even sacked from his team for not attending the press (he had promised he would).

Edited April 14, 2021 by Icy

[Tyburn]

It’s an interesting point.

I’m 8 seasons into my journeyman career and I’m still unable to get the press fully on my side. They loved me in Scotland and Belgium, but in England they’re a bunch of *****! Which I like.

The only positive to the endless conferences is the knowledge that it’s also a pain for real life managers as well.

But seeing as we’re obliged to do this so very frequently it really should be high on the list of priorities for SI to try and get spot on. This year it’s finally had a revamp but it still needs ALOT more work. There needs to be way more dynamism to them. I don’t mind answering questions if they’re different way more often. They can even have the same coded outcome if SI needed, just more variety. More dynamic. If it needs more power then give it more power from somewhere else. It’s so central atm that it really needs to offer more.

On the whole however, relating to the OP, the game is designed to be delved into as deep or as little as you wish. Once you realise that not every button needs to be pressed, personally, I find the flow very good.

[KillYourIdols]

In FM21, It's the most infuriating part for me. I'm all for Media and Player interaction, but its too repetitive. Same questions on a weekly basis and it becomes a nuisance after 10 in game years

Yes, I'm happy to see my player score for his country

Personally if there was an option to answer a question something along the lines of "I've answered this question and won't be answering it again in the future"   and you didn't see that question again, it could be a decent trade off.

 

[forameuss]

I've bought each title, but I've only really seriously played 21 in great detail, largely skipping through 18, 19 and 20.  It's maybe been like this for years and I've just not seen, but I'd say the interaction has gotten about as bad as it ever has been with the added complexity.  It's all very well trying to add personality and the like to players, but when it's so sorely lacking in context as it is here, it ends up coming across worse than the days where we didn't have to worry about this.  I've completely avoided press conferences of any kind, and have now taken to basically ignoring any request my players have to talk outside of a few choice occasions.  I find the reactions players have to statements wildly unpredictable and often hilariously bad*, and I've yet to find any noticeable downside to basically being a brick wall in a tracksuit.  Oh you wanted to go to Rangers?  Don't care, I'm not going to acknowledge it.  You'll be back in a few months saying you're cool with staying.

It's starting to feel very much like a lot of the functions in the game are so artificial that it's easy to game them.  From transfer AI to interaction, the whole thing seems to be needing to be rebuilt from the ground up.  And that's no easy task.

 

* My favourite example being when I told my newly promoted squad of overachievers that they could avoid relegation.  They all had reactions of either Offended or Insulted.  What's going on there?

Edited April 21, 2021 by forameuss

[who_is_it]

The interaction (especially with players) is the feature I love the most in the game.

I still think there are other ways to improve on interactions.

[Zemahh]

4 hours ago, forameuss said:

My favourite example being when I told my newly promoted squad of overachievers that they could avoid relegation.  They all had reactions of either Offended or Insulted.  What's going on there?

I don't think the game recognizes any sort of context or the fact you might be trying to motivate your players, for example. I found that telling them whatever is expected from board always works best, even if you know you can do better. Before that meeting at the end of the season, you always get a club culture inbox item with the expectations for the next season and that's what I tend to go by.

I do agree that's one part of the game that could be vastly improved though. Currently it all feels a bit gamey and repetitive. It's hard to get immersed when the whole thing starts feeling like a chore after a month.

[jim5000]

Interesting that the OP was writen in 2018 and it is as relevant today, 3-4 versions later as the it was the day it was posted.

[Ripamon]

On 14/04/2021 at 16:44, Icy said:

Three years later and after the new improved press conferences... I'd say the overall feeling is still the same despite the attempts from SI to improve it.

The reason I'm refloating this old thread is because it came up after a search about delegating press conferences as I can't stand them anymore.

In my last save, I have been playing 6 seasons with Crewe, from Sunday league reputation in League 1 to 4th in the Premier with good success. Playing it as realistic as I could (think on LLM rules) and part of the task was attending to all the press conferences, team talks, pregame tunnel interviews, etc. While it was ok for a few seasons, it's now something very boring as I have probably already seen all the different questions and conversations dozens of times, I can even answer now without reading the question and even worse, I have learn how to manipulate the press, my players and my opponents and it's probably part of my success, to have an highly motivated team, that never becomes nervous or complacent, that loves me and has me as favourite personal etc. The press also loves me as I'm always there for them.

Now as I'm bored of my success with Crewe (maybe one day I'll go back to this save to try to win the CL), I want to start a journeyman save again from scratch, again with Sunday league reputation and from the lowest tier this time. But when I think on going through all the press releases again uff... to the point that I think about moving to FMT instead and to avoid all the press interaction all together, but I like other parts of full fat like a custom db with more lower leagues, training, u23 and u18, tactics knowledge, etc. I could also just send my AM to the press, but... then my manager profile "Media handling" attribute goes down to zero and it will **** off my board or damage my chances of being hired in the future. 

As to build a module that feels fresh for in game years it's not possible, and sooner or later it will repeat itself (and don't say it's realistic and that is why it's in the game, as its like saying that driving your car every day 1 hour to the training field is also realistic and should be in the GAME). I guess the perfect middle point in my opinion would be to have less frequent press releases. Maybe to make it more like in FMT, only when you have a big game or something like that, instead of 3 or 4 per week when you are in the premier, making you to expend more time clicking on the repetitive answers than actually playing games. Else at least delegating press conferences to your staff, shouldn't negatively affect your manager profile as it doesn't affect if you delegate training or scouting (or make it optional).

Is anybody really enjoying the press conferences after a few seasons? or is most of people just delegating them? and if so, does having a zero media handling attribute affect you at all? I have found a thread from an older version saying that he was even sacked from his team for not attending the press (he had promised he would).

Just use the editor to periodically give yourself 20 media handling 

And your assistant too for that matter.

It's not cheating since it's so tedious and has little benefit 

 

[Mars_Blackmon]

The problem isn’t too must interaction, it’s the little effect that’s problematic.

 

When it comes to press conferences, we are literally choosing the same answers to not lose player morale. When in reality, a manager is/is not choosing his comments carefully in hopes to please the board, players, media, fans.

if I’m praising another player on a team, the benefit should be that the player in question could become interested in playing for me. The downside is that I may upset fans or even players in the process. 
 

either go all in with this stuff or just get rid of it…

[ExeChris]

How many times can do I need to say it's cool to see a player score for their country?!