The Dynamic League Reputation Discussion (with poll)

[gianno]

Dynamic league for dynamic league TV rights money, prizes and sponsorships. YES!

[gunner86]

I completely agree with the OP, and judging by th eoverwhelming lead on the poll, so do alot of others.

Smoething for SI to mull over.

[baker.simon]

I completely agree with the OP, and judging by th eoverwhelming lead on the poll, so do alot of others.

Smoething for SI to mull over.

Excellent, cheers mate

Obviously it would have to be done properly and not half arsed like, and as ive said before it would mainly affect long long games.

[SCIAG]

More important question- what does league reputation actually do?

I was entirely ignorant about it for ages, until somebody posted about how his Ajax side's reputation kept dropping at the start of the season because he'd gone over the cap.

AFAIK, league reputation is used to keep team reputation below a certain level. I am yet to see evidence of any other use for it. Therefore, on FM10 I will set every league reputation to 20.

If the above is true, I suggest that league reputation is useless and should be scrapped. If there are more complex thinks at work (such as attraction to the league- say Bayern come in for a team, but Everton do too, both teams have a similar rep, the player chooses between CL football+ the Bundesliga and PL football+ the UEFA Cup) then maybe it serves a purpose. However, in that case, rather than adding dynamic league reputations, I'd suggest scrapping the cap on team rep and changing the equation above. Juventus and Serie A or Knockbreda, the greatest side in the world? If Knockbreda have 10000 for their reputation and Juve have 8800, Knockbreda should "win". If they're equal, Juventus should "win" (climate, better standard of league, famous stadium).

[Taunton]

I also agree with the OP. I have always looked at FM as the comfort for the real worlds football fans broken dreams. When your team is being beaten week in and week out, you can always load up a game of FM and try to make the dream come true there.

So I would like dynamic league reputation, because then your efforts will be rewarded, and what you achieve will have greater impact.

I agree that it would always be a cap to what should be possible (Iceland reaching 20 in rep should be impossible) but the opportunity to improve your leagues rep should be implemented.

I play every year a career game with Caernarfon in Wales. After a while I totally dominate the league, and starting to make some mark in Europe, always qualifying for the CL-groups. Still the reputation for the league is just 5, and this is also affects my team reputation. Because my leagues rep is so low, I think that it limit my team to gain a very high reputation.

I also will believe that a succesful club in Wales, with the vicinity to England and Scotland, and the opportunity to regular CL-football, would attract a lot of football players. But beacause of the limits, it is difficult to get good players to my team. Also the income from Tv and the league in Wales is ridiculously low, and it never change, no matter how well the league is doing.

So every year I wish for dynamic reputation, and I hope it would be possible to implement it at some stage.

(Apologize if I am to blurry or haven't made my point clear enough, but I am not a native english speaker )

[thompe]

More important question- what does league reputation actually do?

That is the question we need to answer first, because if we don't know how a system works, how can we find a way to improve it?

And SI are probably the only ones who can, but I guess they won't tell ;p

[Jorge Campos]

Let SI argue with the 92% who say yes. It's time to get it coded, lads.

[hursty2]

@ Tez01979

Your looking at this suggested feature too short sighted.

Simon clearly stated in his OP that the process of a change of reputation would be very slow, meaning that it would take atleast 5 years of consistent Champions League/Europa League football for the the dynamics of the league to change. Say a team has a lucky run in one of those competitions one year but fails the next isn't going to affect the reputation; But if a variety of teams from a particular league consistently make it past the group stages it will affect the reputation. However it will still be a slow process.

Do you get the idea of it now?

I also voted yes

PS: Miles has already stated that this is something they've been looking to implement for a whil but want to do it properly

[stokes_83]

Have there really been good players going to Russia or the Ukraine? I haven't seen any. I've seen lots of good players leave though.

A country like the Ukraine is very unlikely to have the corporate sponsorship dollars to ever support paying the wages of star players, so why would FM code the game to allow for it? In my opinion it would be very unrealistic.

[Coasterkoa]

Have there really been good players going to Russia or the Ukraine? I haven't seen any. I've seen lots of good players leave though.

A country like the Ukraine is very unlikely to have the corporate sponsorship dollars to ever support paying the wages of star players, so why would FM code the game to allow for it? In my opinion it would be very unrealistic.

Very true, which is why dynamic reputation would need to rely on much more than simply results in international competition. Economic factors of the country, country status, etc, would need to be taken into account.

[Danny Dire]

I think Dynamic league reputation is the way forward especially with people making acurate foriegn leagues.

Lots of leagues over the years have changed reputation.

Scotish leagues are on the way down.

Italian leagues have decreased in reputaion over the years.

Russian League has improved ect...

I think it will make the game more interesting espeacially over 10 years into the game when a never powerhouse may emerge in Europe.

Great idea.

[Kanukki]

Adding another vote that I would very much like to see dynamic league reputation in the next version of FM.

That said, I (along with most others that are in favour of this addition) recognize that implementing it successfully will be very tricky, and so I won't be beating up SI if they can't do it for the next version, or don't get it right the first time.

The financial aspects are really tricky, and potentially hugely important. Take, for example, the international TV rights for the English Premier League. Because the EPL started increasing in reputation, there was increased international demand to get the EPL screened in different countries. Those international TV contracts fed back into the Premier League, providing more transfer money and increasing the quality of players, and the international reputation of the League. All of these facets would have to be modelled somehow, not just how far a country's teams go in the Champions League (which would only work for Europe anyway).

Another aspect that I think needs to be carefully looked at is parity across the league. The Scottish League is a perfect example. In many ways the success of the 'median' club is a more useful barometer of the League Reputation than that of Rangers or Celtic. If Celtic won the Champions League, would that help attract a star player to Dundee? (Dunno. It might, but probably not too much). Shaktar and Bunyodkor (in Ukraine and Uzebekistan respectively) are similar 'outlier' clubs that have nevertheless been able to attract 'some' minor stars (mostly well past peak) despite the overall reputations of their leagues.

[SSGTroyer]

First off, let me say I voted "yes."

But I have to wonder how the performance of one team over the course of the years could affect the entire country's rep? You have a team in Poland that wins the Champs League every year...so what? That's just one team. In the r/l example of the OP, we see several teams performing well over the years, and that is what is raising the bar in those countries. Thus, in the game, we would need to see several teams -- three or four or five -- make appearances in the late rounds of the continental competition for the country's rep to increase. And that would go beyond the user's ability to control.

Maybe it could be workable that each late round continental appearance by team from a low rep nation would make the second-place domestic-league's rep increase slightly as well as the user's winning squad. That would enable the AI to attract better players, and over the years, make it's own teams show up in the later rounds.

I've also always felt that, in gaming terms alone, a country's national teams successes could mean an increase in that nation's domestic leagues' rep. If France wins the Euros and World Cups 12 years running, Ligue 1 would be the dominant league in Europe...OTOH, if Cyprus does the same, the CPL would be, say, like the Bundesliga. A power, but not the best.

Of course, dynamic league rep would have rippling effects throughout the game, not just in the ability to attract talent. Mein Gott, it would be a nightmare to code and balance...

[deltablue]

I've always thought this should happen. Though as a compromise there should either be a limited range of rep adjustment or very strict requirements for a change. I wouldn't mind if it was fully dynamic myself just that there will be enough against it that there should be safeguards to help allay fears of such a system resulting in a chaotic and totally unrealistic order.

[el sid]

League rep must be dynamic, no argument there tbh

[Jhemo]

fantastic idea

[Elmo]

It needs to be implements in my opinion. One only has to look at the Russian league in recent years. IT went from nothing to european cups, and as such is considered a better standard of league.

[rancer890]

This needs to be implemented. Really annoyed when I'm the best team in Asia with Persma (Indonesia) yet still at national rep. We did go up to Continental after the CWC win but after league reset it went down to national.

The national team is in the top 25 in the world too. Surely we're a lot better than the national rep dictates.

But I hope SI makes this work properly when (not if, it'll be in the game one day...) it's implemented.

[Yid Army]

I would like it in as an optional feature that you select at the start of the game. It is great for those of us who can load 50 nations, but if you can only load the Premier League, it would be a bit rubbish for it to become awful. So, I would like it, but it has to be optional.

[Tomer]

My games are rarely ever long enough for this, but I do like the idea.

[silva_gunner]

Absolutely brilliant idea but - as has probably been mentioned - it would have to take place over a long period of time. I'm talking 10 years for any noticeable change.

[arsenal4life]

I love this idea because I like playing the smaller leagues but it is so hard to compete with the big european team also if this happened more people may play as clubs in the smaller leagues and regens will improve as well

[Brian Shanahan]

Have there really been good players going to Russia or the Ukraine? I haven't seen any. I've seen lots of good players leave though.

A country like the Ukraine is very unlikely to have the corporate sponsorship dollars to ever support paying the wages of star players, so why would FM code the game to allow for it? In my opinion it would be very unrealistic.

Yes there have been a lot of good players going to Russia and Ukraine over the years, mainly to use the clubs as a stepping stone to the Big 4 of England, Spain, Italy and Germany. I would currently rate the two countries as being between France (below) and Holland (above) in terms of attractiveness for foreign players (to test this start a game with both countries selected and look at all the good players who are dirt cheap).

Who would have thought of all the corporate money flowing into the English game until Sky snuck in and stole ITV's premiership baby fro an extra £1m.

Personally, and as I've argued on the equivalent thread for last years game, a league rating based on the average rep for all the clubs in that league in the previous season, currently, as modified by economic and importance ratings (find them in the editor) would probably be the way to go. Don't ask me to code it though I'm not able.

[wardog]

ive been wanting a similar thing for years as well. I manage i scotland normally and as a result im limited to hardly any money every year and only a massive increase in club reputation attracts a Mid table premiership players. And if you look t history in the late 80's to early 00's the SPL and inparticular the old firm could attract some top players, Arteta, di Canio, Can Bronkhorst, Laudrup, Gasgoigne just to name a few.

[baker.simon]

Glad to see someone dragged this back up, i'd forgotten about it tbh

[T-IceMan]

Yes there have been a lot of good players going to Russia and Ukraine over the years, mainly to use the clubs as a stepping stone to the Big 4 of England, Spain, Italy and Germany. I would currently rate the two countries as being between France (below) and Holland (above) in terms of attractiveness for foreign players (to test this start a game with both countries selected and look at all the good players who are dirt cheap).

Too bad the dutch league's reputation in the database went from "16" to "14" the last few years due to the rise of countries like Russia/Ukraine (lets spend some money and our league reputation increases!), so the league in the game gets less attractive while in real life it isnt . Therefore the Dutch league is now suck at a lower reputation, which makes dynamic league reputation really wanted by me... (changing league reputation back with editor is easy, but still... dynamic rep would be the way forward).

[Brian Shanahan]

Too bad the dutch league's reputation in the database went from "16" to "14" the last few years due to the rise of countries like Russia/Ukraine (lets spend some money and our league reputation increases!), so the league in the game gets less attractive while in real life it isnt . Therefore the Dutch league is now suck at a lower reputation, which makes dynamic league reputation really wanted by me... (changing league reputation back with editor is easy, but still... dynamic rep would be the way forward).

I hear you man, I had a perfectly good 2 year game going on 09 with Shakhtar which wasn't turned into a career game because 10 of my 16 regular starters wanted out 18 months in and I couldn't persuade them otherwise. IRL I reckon Russia and Ukraine would have a small edge on getting better players (more money for wages), but be a lot worse for keeping them (quality of life, racism, climate) than with the Netherlands.

[pancake111]

It's insane that this is still not implemented

For those saying: "Yeah good idea, but it should take at least 10 years for it to have an effect"

10 years is nothing for us long-term managers (40-60+ seasons), who are being held back by the capped reputations!!

We don't care if it's not perfect first go - we just want _something_! Anything so we can have an effect..

I won't be buying fm11 unless something like this is implemented, since this is the biggest area which can be improved in the least amount of time,

[baker.simon]

It's insane that this is still not implemented

For those saying: "Yeah good idea, but it should take at least 10 years for it to have an effect"

10 years is nothing for us long-term managers (40-60+ seasons), who are being held back by the capped reputations!!

We don't care if it's not perfect first go - we just want _something_! Anything so we can have an effect..

I won't be buying fm11 unless something like this is implemented, since this is the biggest area which can be improved in the least amount of time,

Obviously I'd like it implemented, thats why I made this thread, but I don't think it will be easy. There will be an awful lot of programming needed to make it happen.

[Elrithral]

Too bad the dutch league's reputation in the database went from "16" to "14" the last few years due to the rise of countries like Russia/Ukraine (lets spend some money and our league reputation increases!), so the league in the game gets less attractive while in real life it isnt . Therefore the Dutch league is now suck at a lower reputation, which makes dynamic league reputation really wanted by me... (changing league reputation back with editor is easy, but still... dynamic rep would be the way forward).

Don't you mean, "lets win two Uefa Cups, Zenit and Shaktar, whilst Dutch teams do nothing in Europe and watch our league rep rise" I feel your pain because i'm suffering due to the Dutch league's rep atm, my Ajax side can't attract anyone, but I don't think it's unrealistic to say that players would rather play in leagues that have produced European champions and have oodles of money, than the Dutch league, which has not a lot of money and oodles of underachieving teams.

As for the actual subject; dynamic league rep is a must, but it has to be done realisticially and based on the league performance, not just one teams success. Too many people expect their league rep to jump because they managed to win the CL with a team from Belgium, but the fact of the matter is that league rep would jump slightly, it would only peak if a number of Belgian teams were doing well or one team in particular had success over a substantial epriod of time.

[grade]

I is fantastic idea, but and this is big but, if this would be feature would be like many that promised a lot and it is buggy for some reason, could ruin a game. I prefer to remain as is.

Unless SI decided to bring back only put features that have fully tested by them (and not us), then it could be great addition.

[dylan73]

I do hope SI is already testing this idea in some form in the labor...

Just 1 or 2 points of move in reputation of a league would count a lot in gameplay in say a 10 years era of time in the game-world...

Say moving up of the Hungarian league frrm the company of Slovenia or Finland to a group with Denmark or Switzerland...

Or the opposite: Austria could fall to alevel of a lesser Eastern country...

[crouchaldinho]

As for the actual subject; dynamic league rep is a must, but it has to be done realisticially and based on the league performance, not just one teams success. Too many people expect their league rep to jump because they managed to win the CL with a team from Belgium, but the fact of the matter is that league rep would jump slightly, it would only peak if a number of Belgian teams were doing well or one team in particular had success over a substantial epriod of time.

This sums up my view. I agree with Elrithral.

[shezza88]

I hope it is included in FM 11. I was all excited about the editor this year, really wanted to create a club or two, and put them in a random league eg. Egypt ... I was looking forward to seeing how they got on, and maybe I might manage them someday..

The editor was wasted in some sense for me, because there wasn't dynamic league reputation, hence I could not implement my idea....

^^ You may not say this is very realistic, yet it is still a game .. Maybe there should be a tick box at the start of the game ...

[WH]

I agree with the above opinions. It must be success for several clubs from that country before the league rep has any noticeable gain. English, Spanish and Italian teams fill most of the places in the later stages of the Champions league, hence their reps should be higher. When 2 or 3 clubs from Belgium or Russia regularly make it to the latter stages of the champions league only then should they see any noticeable gain in league rep. Its a good idea but has to be right to stop it from ruining the game. (Maybe have a tick box for Dynamic Reputation on/off in the options.)

[Sidder]

While there at it, TV Money contract also gotta be redone every so much then as it goes hand in hand with quality of league or maybe if you become single big team of a league ... your board could decide to go solo on tv rights .. and so on

[jld123]

This would massively improve the long-term playability of the game, especially with the new league editor thingy.

But I don't think there should be a cap.

As an extreme example, let's say IRL some billionaires take a fancy to the Cypriot League next year, so 5 of the 14 clubs have Sheikhs as owners. They'll be able to pay massive wages so they'll do some publicity signings like the USA does sometimes, Darren Huckerby et al, and the clubs will be able to persuade young prospects from other countries to play in Cyprus. The standard of football will improve, the club's performances in European competitions will improve in a few short years, and that will continue. The youth academies and training facilities of the clubs will improve, so better younger players will come through to play for their country, and the performance of the national team could well improve.

My drawn-out point is, in this scenario, the sky is the limit with this league. If money keeps going in, the quality of player will keep improving, more advertising money will go in which will filter through down the leagues, the better the clubs will do in Europe, the more attractive the league is to players. In 40-50-60 years time Cyprus could be the dominant force in Europe.

[ManUTactician247]

I say yes but it should have limits, still a great idea and the "easier to buy players" part would be a relief for me

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

Silly idea. I mean in real life, in the last 20 /30 years, has any League really changed its reputation?

[The Sean]

Silly idea. I mean in real life' date=' in the last 20 /30 years, has any League really changed its reputation?[/quote']

Yes. Lots. Serie A dominated the late 1980's and early 1990's. The EPL dominates now but did not have the international prestige when they were banned from European play. There are numerous examples of 2nd-tier leagues jockeying for position. I could go on...

[Bongo-Bongo]

Well the reputation of the Russian and Ukranian league has improved over recent years for a start, whilst it's probably fair to say that the repuatation of the Belgian and Serbian/Yugoslav league has declined since the 80's to early 90's and the Dutch league certainly isn't as reputable as it was when Ajax were a powerhouse.

The only reason that I can honestly think of for not including this is it not working properly. It needs to be a slow process. If a Danish team were to win the Champions League, the Danish league shouldn't suddenly become one of the most reputable in the world. It should obviously get a boost, but if other teams from Denmark are performing poorly at a continental level, it should be a pretty minimal increase.

Top teams will also need to become much more active in signing players at overachieving teams to help give a more realistic approach to this. Look at Porto for a start. After winning the Champions League, many of their best players were taken by bigger clubs and they've never looked like strong competition since. And the same could be said for Monaco who were runners-up that year. If approaches to league reputation like this are taken, then this will be a very welcome addition to the game.

[Mr Sandman]

course it's a good idea but the "odds" or whatever on a change have to be slim, you can't have it being one year Russia is the top league then Romania then Spain etc

[Mr Sandman]

Silly idea. I mean in real life' date=' in the last 20 /30 years, has any League really changed its reputation?[/quote']

wow!!!!!!!

[baker.simon]

Silly idea. I mean in real life' date=' in the last 20 /30 years, has any League really changed its reputation?[/quote']

In your tiny mind, no. In the real word, yes!

[Mr Sandman]

he is slightly right IMO but not right enough to outrightly dismiss this idea. it needs to be implemented but slowly

[Recury]

I posted a similar idea in the wishlist thread a while back, but it was more to do with the quality of newgens from countries than the reps of leagues. The idea behind it was the same though so I would be all for something like this.

[llama3]

agree with the principle, hopefully SI could find a good way to work this in

[ldktalin]

Voted yes, as that's the closest option to my actual opinion.

In principle, I am definitely in favor of league reputation not being static (as it is now). On the other hand, I don't want to see unrealistic scenarios such as the Irish League being every footballer's dream, regardless of club success.

When you think about it, the lack of realism with a completely dynamic system is all down to the human player factor. When we win CL several times with the likes of Chimney Corner, we are the ones breaking the "realism" here. I think it's safe to say that AI won't manage Chimney Corner to CL success, regardless of how much time you give it. And it goes without saying that it will never happen irl.

A solution could be to have the league reputation derived from the reputation of clubs involved in it, something like the average club reputation or so. That way the player can achieve any sort of success with his club (thus increasing the club's reputation), but because the rest of the league probably won't keep up, the league standard will still stay on a reasonable level, it may go up by a point or two at most. And when the domestic competitions are poor, it only makes sense that you can't buy or keep world class players, regardless of your finances and/or success.

[Terra21]

I would love to see this, although as there is no cap on Club Reputation there shouldn't be one on the League Reputation, if you build up a small team into a European powerhouse then the League Reputation should change.

Although if there is a cap you'll run into the same problem not being able to attract the Worlds Best players. With the League Reputation rising AI clubs in the league will receive higher TV revenue, improving their finances and also improving their chances of signing better players to challenge at the top level.

It would be great to take control of a small Northern Irelend team, build up the team, while also raising the League Reputation, then other teams in the League which would not normally get so much money, getting alot more money from TV deals and sponsorship, making it a better challenge later on in the game.

[sthptngomad76]

Dumb question, but do the number of CL/Europa League spots available to a minor league change with continued success at the very least? ie if Northern Irish teams win the CL consistently somehow, with other NI teams also doing ok, will the no. of spots increase to two or three?