Penalty Taking etiquette

[Lucas]

Didn't watch the ITV coverage of the final but apparently Roy Keane was pretty scathing of Martinez' antics during the penalty shootout (plus he got a yellow card too). 

I was thinking the rules are a bit biased against goalkeepers, if they are going to hand out yellows for that, but not yellows for players doing stop starts on their run ups for the penalties to get the keepers to go the wrong way. 

Should Martinez really have been given a yellow, should stuff like Lewandowski breaking the rules on penalty taking so he gets a second go, be allowed (Poland v France)? 

[TM]

Martinez was even worse in the Copa America when he was playing Colombia, although I do think he should have got a yellow when he threw the ball away

[Darius1998]

3 minutes ago, TM said:

Martinez was even worse in the Copa America when he was playing Colombia, although I do think he should have got a yellow when he threw the ball away

Wasn't that what got him a yellow?

[GunmaN1905]

Goalkeepers are entitled to do whatever they want as long as the rules heavily favor the takers, like they do these days.

Martinez took the risk, if they lost he would've looked like an idiot.

[Carambau]

Loved it!

[Baptista_8]

22 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Didn't watch the ITV coverage of the final but apparently Roy Keane was pretty scathing of Martinez' antics during the penalty shootout (plus he got a yellow card too). 

I was thinking the rules are a bit biased against goalkeepers, if they are going to hand out yellows for that, but not yellows for players doing stop starts on their run ups for the penalties to get the keepers to go the wrong way. 

Should Martinez really have been given a yellow, should stuff like Lewandowski breaking the rules on penalty taking so he gets a second go, be allowed (Poland v France)? 

Martinez was absolute cringe. That little dance especially.

Throwing the ball away from a 22 y/old kid, and chatting **** to him. Shouldn't you feel confident in saving pens without those ******** antics? Acts like a complete tool for the whole shootout then acts the gentleman consoling people. Just doesn't sit right with me tbh.

[VamPook]

Martinez was awesome against Columbia in the Copa

[TM]

18 minutes ago, Darius1998 said:

Wasn't that what got him a yellow?

I think he got a yellow when Munai was taking the penalty for France, throwing the ball away got him a talking to by the ref

[Lucas]

4 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Martinez was absolute cringe. That little dance especially.

Throwing the ball away from a 22 y/old kid, and chatting **** to him. Shouldn't you feel confident in saving pens without those ******** antics? Acts like a complete tool for the whole shootout then acts the gentleman consoling people. Just doesn't sit right with me tbh.

I thought it was great tbh and he should use whatever he can to get an advantage. 

It works. 

If Villa won a cup on penalties and he did the same would you still say he's cringe?

[Baptista_8]

1 minute ago, Lucas said:

I thought it was great tbh and he should use whatever he can to get an advantage. 

It works. 

If Villa won a cup on penalties and he did the same would you still say he's cringe?

Probably. I think it's unnecessary unless the opponent is also acting a tool.

[VamPook]

And pretty sure antics also wouldn't work on experienced mentally strong outfielders

[Andrew_]

The ref should be holding the ball and the goalkeeper on their line during the walk up. He shouldn't be allowed to throw the ball away like that.

[enigmatic]

1 minute ago, Andrew_ said:

The ref should be holding the ball and the goalkeeper on their line during the walk up. He shouldn't be allowed to throw the ball away like that.

This. Goalkeeper can do what he likes within the rules to put players off, up to the ref (or refereeing directives) to stop him.

[outlander]

54 minutes ago, Darius1998 said:

Wasn't that what got him a yellow?

No. Ref ignored it. He really should have been off. 

 

And answering the original question: of course, such behaviour should be punished. It's like asking if diving should be punished.

[Rafalution]

He did it twice, got a talking to for the first time, yellow for the second. Should have been yellow for the first one

[Glenn Wakeford]

Agree that technically speaking, he should have been sent off.

Would have been a bold ref to do that though, especially in a WC final. Never gonna happen - the ceremony of the WC final trumps doing things 'right', sadly.

[Rafalution]

I mean if he'd carded him for the first one he wouldn't have done it again, so he's never getting sent off. 

[The_jagster]

In a youth tournament an Irish goalie got a second booking and sent off for coming off their line and there was a lot of moaning in their press.

Applying the rules properly still gets the ref in trouble.

[Glenn Wakeford]

13 minutes ago, Rafalution said:

I mean if he'd carded him for the first one he wouldn't have done it again, so he's never getting sent off. 

Yes, definitely suffering from pre-Christmas week brain.

[kopsy101]

Martinez was fabulous, proper gets in their heads. You can cry about it and take a moral high ground, but I want a player to do what needs done to win.

Always gonna get judged, so may as well hussle. If not then atleast you can celebrate the fair play award. 

[Rafalution]

Are you okay with diving then?

[kopsy101]

10 minutes ago, Rafalution said:

Are you okay with diving then?

Aye more or less. Spent years being conditioned to get upset about it, but now I say do what you need to do. Yourself?

[Lucas]

Was this change before or after Suarez played for Liverpool?

[mrw072]

2 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

Probably. I think it's unnecessary unless the opponent is also acting a tool.

I agree completely.  Personally I hate seeing that kind of thing go on.  It's just totally unnecessary, especially as he's a great keeper.  I've actually lost respect for him as I think a true 'champion' wouldn't do that.  I know he's a World Cup winner, but he didn't show any sportsmanship from what I saw during the shoot out.

[Baptista_8]

https://talksport.com/football/1281407/

Quote

‘It wasn’t gamesmanship’ – Simon Jordan claims Emiliano Martinez was cheating with penalty shootout antics in Argentina’s World Cup final win over France

Simon Jordan speaking sense, as usual.

[Rafalution]

15 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

Aye more or less. Spent years being conditioned to get upset about it, but now I say do what you need to do. Yourself?

Not in the slightest. I'd rather people played by the rules and with good sportsmanship (even if it means losing) than just getting away with as much cheating as they can. 

[kopsy101]

17 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Was this change before or after Suarez played for Liverpool?

Probably in the last couple years.  

2 minutes ago, Rafalution said:

Not in the slightest. I'd rather people played by the rules and with good sportsmanship (even if it means losing) than just getting away with as much cheating as they can. 

I get that, but being objective, I've noticed that people who make it to the top tend to do what needs to be done. 

I don't necessarily like diving, time wasting, throwing ball away, intimidating, biting (  ) but it does work. I've just made my peace with that. I noticed that watching Copa America last year, the games were awful in terms of sportsmanship. But they don't give a f*** what we think, they want to win and I respect that.

[buffalo]

hmm what happens if a goalie gets sent off during the penalties then? 

one of the players gets in and one less penalty taker for the opposition?

can still sub a player out for a goalie?

[samuelawachie]

Why did they do away with the ABBA method by the way?

[Lucas]

2 minutes ago, samuelawachie said:

Why did they do away with the ABBA method by the way?

It's not proven to make it any more equal, which I think was one of the reason it was tried.

[samuelawachie]

8 minutes ago, Lucas said:

It's not proven to make it any more equal, which I think was one of the reason it was tried.

But it certainly looks like something that should make a difference, if not, why do they do coin flips to decide who takes first?

[Rafalution]

45 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

But they don't give a f*** what we think, they want to win and I respect that.

For me, people that don't give a **** what anyone else thinks and go after their objectives regardless of rules, laws or expectations on what constitutes fair behaviour, are generally a cancer on society. It's obviously not that big of a deal when it comes to sport (relative to other things) but its the same mindset. 

[Wolf_pd]

Taking first is an advantage assuming you are going to score.

[kopsy101]

Just now, Rafalution said:

For me, people that don't give a **** what anyone else thinks and go after their objectives regardless of rules, laws or expectations on what constitutes fair behaviour, are generally a cancer on society. It's obviously not that big of a deal when it comes to sport (relative to other things) but its the same mindset. 

That's the point, it's sport. It's not that deep. 

[The_jagster]

5 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

That's the point, it's sport. It's not that deep. 

This isn't intended as a gotcha, I'm just interested to know, would you take issue with athletes doping?

[Lucas]

55 minutes ago, samuelawachie said:

But it certainly looks like something that should make a difference, if not, why do they do coin flips to decide who takes first?

They don't just decide that, but also what end the penalties are taken at.

[Freakiie]

I don't mind the silly antics that goalies do on the line, but taking the ball and throwing it away is definitely a step beyond that and Martinez should've just gotten booked the first time he did it. If it's without the ball though and not in the takers face, go nuts for all I care.

[buffalo]

1 hour ago, samuelawachie said:

But it certainly looks like something that should make a difference, if not, why do they do coin flips to decide who takes first?

guess they do that to avoid any discussions afterwards, and to say it was down to the coin toss instead of predetermining the order in advance?

gotto have the (illusion of) randomness I suppose

[Confused Clarity]

2 hours ago, samuelawachie said:

Why did they do away with the ABBA method by the way?

 

1 hour ago, Lucas said:

It's not proven to make it any more equal, which I think was one of the reason it was tried.

They didn't trial it long enough to determine if it made it more equal or not.

The reason it was dropped was primarily because it confused the players, officials, supporters and everybody involved in broadcasting them.

They weren't prepared to try to get over the confusion hurdle in the first place so just binned it off as quickly as they could.

[Rafalution]

1 hour ago, kopsy101 said:

That's the point, it's sport. It's not that deep. 

its still incredibly important to a whole load of people though. It can still mean the difference between someone achieving a lifes ambition or losing out to a cheat. If you were a professional footballer and you lost a final because someone on the other team dived would you just think 'fair play'?

[titchuk]

Always remember Hart doing all his mouthing off at Euro 2012 and then Pirlo panenka-ing him. Sure someone'll do it to Martinez one day and make him look like a tit.

Edited December 19, 2022 by titchuk

[enigmatic]

I don't think diving to con the referee and being annoying to try to distract an opponent are the same level of offence though

You can ignore an annoying goalkeeper and stick your penalty in the top corrner. You can't ignore being sent off and watching from the stands as the opposition score from a penalty awarded for something you didn't do.

[martinji]

1 hour ago, Freakiie said:

I don't mind the silly antics that goalies do on the line, but taking the ball and throwing it away is definitely a step beyond that and Martinez should've just gotten booked the first time he did it. If it's without the ball though and not in the takers face, go nuts for all I care.

yeah I agree.  If I was the ref, when he did it the first time I would have actually made him go and get the ball and replace it on the spot.  That would have made him look the fool and his housery would potentially have backfired.

[outlander]

5 hours ago, kopsy101 said:

You can cry about it and take a moral high ground, but I want a player to do what needs done to win.

So you want players to dive and cheat?

It's really weird how people say it's absolutely fine to do whatever is needed for the win. They immediately lose this sentiment as soon as their tеam gets cheated by an opponent.

Edited December 19, 2022 by outlander

[DJ]

Surprised that no one has mentioned that the players/teams should be on the middle line, but at opposite sides of the pitch. It makes for nice drama to have them slag eachother off but the way it played out between for example Argentina and the Netherlands... well, for shame. Players about to take a penalty and the goalies should not be allowed to be spoken or gestured to by opposite players either. There should be only two possible touches of the ball after the penalty taker puts it on the spot: the shot and possibly the save. At any other moment, the ball is considered to be held by the ref. Any other deliberate attempt to touch the ball should yield a yellow.

In general: stop messing about ^^

[kopsy101]

3 hours ago, The_jagster said:

This isn't intended as a gotcha, I'm just interested to know, would you take issue with athletes doping?

No totally, it's a valid question. And I will welcome any others if you want to test what I'm fine with  

Yes, I take issue with doping. I think that crosses a line when you give your body a physical advantage, especially the fact the drug will likely be illegal. 

2 hours ago, Rafalution said:

its still incredibly important to a whole load of people though. It can still mean the difference between someone achieving a lifes ambition or losing out to a cheat. If you were a professional footballer and you lost a final because someone on the other team dived would you just think 'fair play'?

In the past, I didn't think fair play, but whether you like it or not, it's part of the game. Not being funny but people don't cheat in football because they're bad people, most of them are better people than I am certainly so I'm not gonna judge a bunch of people who play at the most unimaginable level who've also grown up on the other side of the world...I play football, I also play squash and people do try manipulate the rules to their advantage. The fact people do it shows that it's only human to do so though. The better player I come up against, the more competitive they tend to be and the longer the lengths they'll go to win. 

Don't get me wrong, I used to compete nationally and was competing to get into the Scotland Squash team so I'm super competitive. When lads used to bump into me, claim foul play against me because they weren't reaching a shot, I've smashed rackets over that kinda stuff. I've definitely calmed down over that stuff lately for reasons which I'm sure will just be boring af  

1 hour ago, outlander said:

So you want players to dive and cheat?

It's really weird how people say it's absolutely fine to do whatever is needed for the win. They immediately lose this sentiment as soon as their tеam gets cheated by an opponent.

Ideally no, but I don't hold anything against it really. If my team does it and we win, then fine. If somebody does it against us, I honestly just think why are you even leaving your leg out for that/why are you giving him the option? And then you call the diver a name because that's what you do but then what? It's football, I dislike players for some stuff but not that. 

 

Hopefully that all makes sense, i've just typed it between dinner and popping my lad off to bed  I get that it's not the norm to say, but it is what it is. 

[buffalo]

26 minutes ago, DJ said:

Surprised that no one has mentioned that the players/teams should be on the middle line, but at opposite sides of the pitch. It makes for nice drama to have them slag eachother off but the way it played out between for example Argentina and the Netherlands... well, for shame. Players about to take a penalty and the goalies should not be allowed to be spoken or gestured to by opposite players either. There should be only two possible touches of the ball after the penalty taker puts it on the spot: the shot and possibly the save. At any other moment, the ball is considered to be held by the ref. Any other deliberate attempt to touch the ball should yield a yellow.

In general: stop messing about ^^

maybe they should do a ball for each team

or simply have a ball girl/boy/... to get the ball

there's always some time before the next reaches the spot

Edited December 19, 2022 by buffalo

[Baptista_8]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/12/20/emiliano-martinez-taunts-kylian-mbappe-doll-next-lionel-messi/

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

Edited December 20, 2022 by Baptista_8

[CMOZZA]

1 hour ago, Baptista_8 said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/12/20/emiliano-martinez-taunts-kylian-mbappe-doll-next-lionel-messi/

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

Don't care about his antics in the shootout, but this is just pathetic tbh

[buffalo]

8 minutes ago, CMOZZA said:

Don't care about his antics in the shootout, but this is just pathetic tbh

yeah well would've been great to watch if he did that before Kylian's penalty