How much do you agree with this series of statements?

[Antonin]

Absolutely agree. The thing is the poll is always going to be skewed towards people disagreeing, as it's the current generation of FMers, who pressumably on the whole really enjoy the game, that will be in the forum.

I agree strongly with all of the poll questions, which should be obvious from what I have written elsewhere. I also agree with what AM has written. It is very possible that many people who would also agree with with the poll questions no longer come to this forum very often. There just isn't much point. FM has taken the direction it has taken, and that's that. A lot of people are happy. For those of us who think FM has become more like work and less like a game, well, there's not much point in spending a lot of time here, as much as we love football and as much as we love what we feel a football management sim could/should be. Sorry.

I rarely come here, and only post here very rarely, although I have been a member for nearly 10 years.

The thing that caused me to check out this forum a few days ago was...reading the latest World Soccer magazine, then going over to YouTube to see some Ronaldinho and Garrincha highlights. Then I started thinking about my FM05 save as Rochdale. And...here I am.

[georginho_juventusygr]

are you female?

No, but this statement is discriminatory.

[georginho_juventusygr]

I agree strongly with all of the poll questions, which should be obvious from what I have written elsewhere. I also agree with what AM has written. It is very possible that many people who would also agree with with the poll questions no longer come to this forum very often. There just isn't much point. FM has taken the direction it has taken, and that's that. A lot of people are happy. For those of us who think FM has become more like work and less like a game, well, there's not much point in spending a lot of time here, as much as we love football and as much as we love what we feel a football management sim could/should be. Sorry.

I rarely come here, and only post here very rarely, although I have been a member for nearly 10 years.

The thing that caused me to check out this forum a few days ago was...reading the latest World Soccer magazine, then going over to YouTube to see some Ronaldinho and Garrincha highlights. Then I started thinking about my FM05 save as Rochdale. And...here I am.

But you know what? The subforum with the most posts is filled with oldies not talking about soccer at all!

[Lazaru5]

No, but this statement is discriminatory.

on the contrary, it is not a statement nor is it discriminatory, it is merely a question as to your gender...

[letissierandhenryaregreat]

Maybe SI should develop a "Lite" version of each FM, a watered down version released in the run-up to Christmas. It shouldn't be too time consuming, as all they really need to do is take out some features and leave it with mainly the bare essentials.

[Arijit]

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more. Strongly disagree.

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to. Strongly disagree. Although some time I remain out of FM for 2/3 days but that due to job pressure.

- There are too many features. Might be, but majority of those features are useful - so I have to disagree

- The game is too slow. disagree. it totally depends on PC config.

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more. since I'm onto FM-series for the last 4/5 years, all I've to learn is the new features every year. So this doesn't stand for me.

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy. I like what it is now. If I need for fun and less realism, I would have turned to FIFA MANAGER

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun. My above point says it all. I'm into FM for realism feelings.

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun. Above statements sums up that I have to completely disagree with this one too. I am currently going strong in a long term save in FM11

This game is not flawless but this is the best football manager game available now.

[aditya]

Ok, I have a 2005 computer and Im playing FM on medium database. Everytime I reach 2013, my computer starts to crash because its taking too much space (new regens staff i guess) so basically now im playing on small database and its less fun to be honest.

[dafuge]

Maybe SI should develop a "Lite" version of each FM, a watered down version released in the run-up to Christmas. It shouldn't be too time consuming, as all they really need to do is take out some features and leave it with mainly the bare essentials.

Is it possible to play the FM handheld version on a PC? If not, perhaps it should be?

(I know I've said this before, in a similar thread)

[chob]

I enjoy the games almost as much as I used to, my main concern is how slow the games run these days.

[Svenc]

I agree strongly with all of the poll questions, which should be obvious from what I have written elsewhere. I also agree with what AM has written. It is very possible that many people who would also agree with with the poll questions no longer come to this forum very often. There just isn't much point. FM has taken the direction it has taken, and that's that. A lot of people are happy. For those of us who think FM has become more like work and less like a game, well, there's not much point in spending a lot of time here, as much as we love football and as much as we love what we feel a football management sim could/should be. Sorry.

I rarely come here, and only post here very rarely, although I have been a member for nearly 10 years.

That is you. There is also an argument to be made about how often it is the people who've got something to complain about showing up on the forums. After all, everybody else might be prolly busy - like playing the game rather than posting and voting.*

Anyway, there is no evidence for any of this - and the notion that FM is taking a different direction than it used to ain't true. The goal has always been to be the most in-depth, realistic football game on the market, whilst still being accessible to bedroom managers everywhere. This isn't guessing, this is following what SI have always communicated to players. Formerly static database entries such as journalists, agents, players and managers turnining from numbers and database IDs into "personalities" to interact with; the tactical side gradually growing more sophisticated whilst at the same time remaining accessible through the tools available - that is the result of natural growth coming from the same idea that has fueled the series all along, not wanton change in direction of development. If old fans were lost along the way that was a result of features being changed and developed (or the fans getting bored, eventually), but not a result of the abandonment of the roots that have been part of the series all along.

Cut out SI's fairly unique design goals and they'll become dime a dozen in between FIFA's/PES' highly idealized two by five minutes Nike-advert-style interpretation of the sports and the many casual management games quickly. Sometimes after work I don't feel like firing up FM either. It's not an experience made primarily for simple relaxation. FM needs a level of commitment even when going with its basic features and leaving everything else to the assistant managers. But so do other games too. If the taste of reward comes after a series of losses and canceled transfers, it's all the sweeter.

That sounds odd, but rather than worrying to be eventually left out, be still glad that Football Manager is here as is. A design philosophy like SI's is fairly unique in an industry increasingly jumping the bandwagon of casual pasttime and the gaming equivalents of bad Michael Bay Summer blockbusters in the movies. This is an industry streamlining design documents for them to fit onto a flip chart of the marketing department which sole aim is to create products that sound appealing to everyone - including your not-so-football-interested mom and little brother. Nodbody'd want that. You neither. On the most basic level, Football Manager's not Kafka, it's just football. But it's still fantastic it's not even merely getting away with the low-tech graphics, more text than in your dad's text adventure games from the 80s and mechanics as indepth as any indepth strategy game from the Golden era of DOS gaming - but it's also still selling millions despite breaking every single rule in the book, even when compared to its immediate competition. How cool is that?!

To answer that poll: yes, the tiniest little bit. But ultimately: not much at all.

* oops, gotta go back to my save.

[milnerpoint]

Quite often, I'm reading on this forum something along these lines:

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more.

i still think this is the best game out there to play so i would say no

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to.

i go through spells now a days, for weeks i cant put it down and for weeks i cant be bothered playing, i guess thats as much to do wtih growing up and stuff as it is to do with the game, i just dont play games as often as i did wheni was younger

- There are too many features.

i love the micromanagment side of things so i enjoy the new features each year

- The game is too slow.

not had this issue at all on a bog standard laptop

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more.

its probablly not as easy to get into the game right away unless you have experience of the current features, there is a lot to get to know and its easy to make mistakes that dont know how to fix unless you konw the features, but i think most games are too easy now a days anyway, i would prob say the current FM is the easiest of the lot so far when you know the mechanics.

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy.

the fantasy is what i love about the game, but to have the full experience you need a level of realism, getting the balance right is tought

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun.

not at all, i work 5 days a week on a computer and FM is nothing like that, like others have said if you find FM like work you should move onto a new game

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun.

older FM's were fun when associated with the memories you have of old saves, but i have tried going back to FM08 and 09 recently and they just lacked the depth 10 and 11 have, i would get bored very quickly trying a long term save on them, anything before that is almost laughable now. I loved all the FM's during their time but they are very outdated now

So I'm conducting a poll in GD, and also inviting some of the users from OTF, in order to see how much the community agrees with these statements.

Feel free to add your own statements and to put your own perspective forward in this thread.

overall im happy with how FM11 has been, i have different prioritys in life now but still find it easy to pick up and blast through a few hours when i have the time and motivation, i think each year i get a bit less interested in the game, but thats just me growning up i think, ill still be in tesco first thing when FM12 comes out tho!

[Ackter]

Is it possible to play the FM handheld version on a PC? If not, perhaps it should be?

(I know I've said this before, in a similar thread)

Nope. PSP, iPhone and iPad only

[dafuge]

Nope. PSP, iPhone and iPad only

That's what I thought. Having never owned any of those things I've never had the chance to play the FMH version. Is it closer to what some people in here might prefer?

[Champion]

I agree with some statements but disagree with others

In fact I disagree with all those statements except one: "the game has too many features that are half baked and distract both the developers and users from the core of the game".

[Ackter]

That's what I thought. Having never owned any of those things I've never had the chance to play the FMH version. Is it closer to what some people in here might prefer?

Possibly - though its probably a lot more cut-down than people might expect. We're back in CM01/02 territory, but with a 2D engine.

[Antonin]

Anyway, there is no evidence for any of this - and the notion that FM is taking a different direction than it used to ain't true. The goal has always been to be the most in-depth, realistic football game on the market, whilst still being accessible to bedroom managers everywhere.

I'm not sure what you mean by "no evidence for any of this." We are, after all, talking about opinions. And yours is no more or less important than mine.

I would add that over the years FM has become less "accessible to bedroom managers everywhere." If it still were, we would not be having this discussion.

My point is that "more" is not necessarily better. One person's "realism" may be another person's mind-numbing tedium. And, indeed, five players might define "realism" five different ways. The same applies to the word "fun."

Unfortunately, many of the people who feel the way I do about what FM has become probably don't visit this forum any more, because some FM players who still really enjoy the game tend to become very defensive and, invariably, abusive.

I'm amused that people [still] throw around terms like "realism," when, after all, this is a game--and therefore it abstracts many of the elements real life managers deal with every day. The fact that people complain with each version about having to develop new tactics--or download someone else's tactics--shows that this "realism" is an illusion. In real life, football tactics don't need to change each and every year. What people are doing with each version of FM is trying to find a way to crack the AI, not play realistic football.

[Indi75]

I've never once taken into account the AI.

I set my team up the way I want them to play, sometimes fitting players to my prefered style or formation, sometimes fitting style and formation to players. If that's not realism I'm not sure what is.

Unfortunately, many of the people who feel the way I do about what FM has become probably don't visit this forum any more, because some FM players who have no patience for the game tend to become very defensive and, invariably, abusive.

[Arbeloa]

Totally agree.

[MancTiger]

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more.

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to.

I managed to get my 10 year old son hooked and able to play within 30 minutes of loading it up, accessible this game is certainly and lets be honest if we wasnt all hooked why are we here?

[Svenc]

I would add that over the years FM has become less "accessible to bedroom managers everywhere." If it still were, we would not be having this discussion.

How would you explain the raising - or at the very least stable - sales then? FM is selling hundreds of thousands of copies each year - and there are 200,000 peoples registered on these forums. Considering that only a fraction of those even bother to provide frequent feedback of any kind - forums can make things look very skewed indeed.

My point is that "more" is not necessarily better. One person's "realism" may be another person's mind-numbing tedium. And, indeed, five players might define "realism" five different ways. The same applies to the word "fun."

Which is all the more reason to go with a solid vision (as SI have been doing all along), rather than desperately trying to cater to every single fan and could-be-fan out there - casual, hardcore, whatelse. It's undeniable that there has been a solid vision that has fueled FM's development, and that none of the changes were the result of abandoning the fundamentals, as you suggested. It's telling from both how the features are being developed as well as what SI claim their policy to be in various forum posts and interviews. If FM was still anything like its early iterations, it would be seen as better browser management game by now with the bonus of a well-rounded database and solid matchday experience, rather than the closest there currently might be to the real sports on a computer screen. Halfway solid transfer and tactics mechanics are the basic core of like any management game out there. Somewhat believable simulation of a virtual football world*, and the interaction and feedback that goes with it, as in FM's case, really isn't.

* Repeating myself here, but we're talking about piece of code that is able to not only remember what the player has said and done throughout a save, but also each AI manager and player. That is a far cry from where the basic transfer'n'matchday gameplay the series has come from, yes, but I'd bet anything that the Collyers have dreamed of doing that kind of thing all along, back then when this game was still only alive in the dreams of two brothers daydreaming about a game that was a bit like the real thing.

What people are doing with each version of FM is trying to find a way to crack the AI, not play realistic football.

Some do, maybe. Because cracking the AI is still the easiest way to make any side overperform - not any different from early versions, where it was supposed to be rather easy to just overload the match engine by simple means. After all, yes, FM is a game. Has always been. But merely trying to crack the AI is somehow missing a lot of the effort that goes into making this thing comparably believable - one reason why I'm personally running like hell from any training, halftime talks and tactics plans that were probably stress tested to perfection by tools borderlining on cheating utilities. I've never been overly successful. I've never gotten a side promoted two levels in succession. And I'm super fine with that. But that is me - for other people fun is something else. But it ain't the only way to get something out of FM. Personally I'd argue it's missing out on way too much. But hey.

[robertcornell68]

All I know is that last year I had two saves, with Cambridge (16 seasons) and World career save (13 seasons), both of which I would happily go back to.

This year: Levski , Koln, Frankfurt, Fortuna Sittard, Ajax and Zenit. None got to the end of three seasons. All deleted.

[SSGTroyer]

Quite often, I'm reading on this forum something along these lines:

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more. Strongly Disagree

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to. slight agree, but just because so many Great Games were released concurrantly with patch 3 and I don't have the time to play everything...

- There are too many features. disagree, but the ones they have need to be improved

- The game is too slow. Strongly Disagree, but I use a 50+ league universe, so I expect slowness

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more. disagree a little

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy. Totally, Wholly, Completely Disagree

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun. Nope

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun. every older game has been deleted from my HD, except FM10 which I've been holding on to for the MyDocs/Graphics folder. Really don't need it anymore, though, and my backups would probably go a lot quicker if I'd get rid of it. Disagree

So I'm conducting a poll in GD, and also inviting some of the users from OTF, in order to see how much the community agrees with these statements.

Feel free to add your own statements and to put your own perspective forward in this thread.

..........

[jcafcwbb]

I've never once taken into account the AI.

I set my team up the way I want them to play, sometimes fitting players to my prefered style or formation, sometimes fitting style and formation to players. If that's not realism I'm not sure what is.

Unfortunately, many of the people who feel the way I do about what FM has become probably don't visit this forum any more, because some FM players who have no patience for the game tend to become very defensive and, invariably, abusive.

Totally agree with this.

[pouncer]

This is a good thread Crouchy, and a good read

======================

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more.

I do. I didn't, until FM11 but I've had a cracking Arsenal save on the latest release. It's fun, probably my best save since Newcastle on FM08.

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to.

Nah, it doesn't. I'm 18 - I'm in Uni so yeah, I have time to kill and plenty. But the key thing is that I'm not as easily amused - I remember the summer holidays in 2008 when I'd literally wake up, start FM, eat every few hours then go to bed. I can't do that now - had a six hour session the other day which was mighty but I couldn't do that very often. Right now for instance I do have time to kill... but for some reason I'm not feeling FM. A few years back every spare moment would be spent on FM - and I had a lot of spare moments!

- There are too many features.

Yeah. The game feels a little bit disorganised. Press conferences are better than they have been, but some things seem a little overwhelming and I just skip through a few things, like Match Preparation. I still don't really know what that screen does.

- The game is too slow.

Definitely. My laptop is quite old though now - 3 years old, with 2GB of RAM so fairly standard. It's definitely too slow though.

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more.

Definitely. I used to love older versions of the game because you could blast through a season with just about anyone before getting bored or whatever. But usually after a season you'd be into the game enough to carry on and play on.

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy.

Not yet, but I think people need to realise that FM is a computer game based on the simulation of being a football manager. It's not a direct simulator. It needs to be fun. Some of us on these forums would love it to be a direct simulator, covering the rise and fall of a football manager through a long career. But your everyday fan doesn't want that. There is an important balance. Right now I think it's fine.

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun.

Sometimes. Things like setting up training and pouring over tactics screens aren't much fun. Luckily there are enough 'assistant take control' buttons.

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun.

Sometimes, again. I miss being able to get into a game very quickly, to get three or four seasons in after not a great deal of playing time. But I'm not sure if that's a case of the grass being greener - I think I'd miss the depth of the current games.

[crouchaldinho]

Bridport_pouncer - Your views seem to match with my own quite a bit.

[x42bn6]

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more.

Yes, but only because it's different.

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to.

Never got into a long-term game with FM10, because, the AI got too easy in the end. FM07 and FM08 are good at long-term games in this respect.

- There are too many features.

Too many features for the sake of too many features, yes. Press conferences and agents could go and the game would be miles more fun. And they are features where arguably even improving them will still be boring.

- The game is too slow.

Disagree - FM10 is quicker than FM08 in the long-run, and it saves/loads files quicker too. It also has a smaller memory footprint. Processing fixtures takes a little longer, true, but it's not too slow by any means - and my PC is ancient.

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more.

On the contrary, it is very easy to get into the game. But once you've got into it, the depth is gone - it's not immersive enough.

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy.

Sort-of agree - I disagree with the imagination and fantasy part, but agree with the fun part. SI have succeeded in showing us how tedious being a football manager is - and that is a failure, not a success.

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun.

Agree - press conferences and agents, for example.

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun.

Sort-of agree - a cross between the old and new would be nice. The old games were about matches and transfers - and that was it. It was quick and simple, but deep enough for the most-engaged of users to enjoy, yet the depth could easily be removed for users who just wanted something basic.

[crouchaldinho]

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to.

Never got into a long-term game with FM10, because, the AI got too easy in the end. FM07 and FM08 are good at long-term games in this respect.

What do you mean by this? The tactical AI or the transfer AI, or something else maybe?

- The game is too slow.

Disagree - FM10 is quicker than FM08 in the long-run, and it saves/loads files quicker too. It also has a smaller memory footprint. Processing fixtures takes a little longer, true, but it's not too slow by any means - and my PC is ancient.

It could be a difference in our PCs or something but FM08 is quite noticeably faster and smoother for me overall. I still have it installed and load it up from time to time and the difference is quite striking. That said, FM10 was a great improvement on 09, and isn't too bad in that respect, but it still feels a bit unresponsive and lacking in pace in comparison to the earlier games, in my opinion.

[x42bn6]

What do you mean by this? The tactical AI or the transfer AI, or something else maybe?

FM07/FM08 were easy to get hooked into because it didn't have all the silly features like press conferences, and because the AI knew how to develop youngsters. I recall on my save Genoa having a young regen striker who broke all youth scoring records and you could literally see Genoa struggle to integrate him into the team, but with eventual success - he went on to score over 100 goals for Italy and a 2-in-3 record in his later years.

You generally never saw teams buy players that didn't fit into their formations, but when they did, they shoehorned them into different positions, although they didn't retrain like FM10 did. For example, I once had a pure AM C (no other position), but other AI teams always deployed him as a central midfielder (albeit without positional retraining) - on FM11, he would be rotting in the reserves after being signed for £30m.

There's also the nasty 3-3-2-1-1 formation that the AI switched into when it was losing, generally stopping silly scorelines.

It could be a difference in our PCs or something but FM08 is quite noticeably faster and smoother for me overall. I still have it installed and load it up from time to time and the difference is quite striking. That said, FM10 was a great improvement on 09, and isn't too bad in that respect, but it still feels a bit unresponsive and lacking in pace in comparison to the earlier games, in my opinion.

For me, FM08 processes smoother and quicker, but it loads and saves miles slower than FM10. So it's a trade-off really. Fast leagues simulate faster in FM10 in my opinion, and the end-of-season processing is faster too.

Horses for courses.

[crouchaldinho]

Fair enough.

[Indi75]

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more.

Disagree, I'm Still happily hitting 1000hrs by March based on Steam gameplay time - which considering I play in the background whilst watching TV, catching up on research suggest the game still has much love.

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to.

Disagree, see above.

- There are too many features

Disagree, there's a couple of things I'd like to see made less repetitive, but it's never felt overly featured. In fact, GD is reflective of people wanting more features overall.

- The game is too slow.

Neutral, tough one this. I'm running an i7 on laptop and a Q6600 on desktop and feel the game flies along. That said, the longer your save the slower it does get and I'm keen to see improvements that will allow more leagues at high speeds.

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more.

Disagree, it has developed into an in depth SIM as the game has advanced, the choice for each individual is whether they prefer to play this as a simulation or play something more 'accessible' [read: arcade] like FIFA Manager.

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy.

Disagree, Realism is realism and fun derived from that is likely different for each player. Not sure that FM is the place for fantasy, tho you could argue that the newgen setup and career element allow for an element of fantasy as the game progresses. Equally, the hysteria each and every time FMRTE stops working suggests that many players are indulging in plenty of fantasy regardless of realism intended by the creators.

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun.

Disagree, subjective. Outside of FM I like RTS and Strategy whilst only possessing F1 and MW3 on Xbox. F1 only gets a look in because of longevity and complexity of race strategy/decision making. Each to their own really, I get my kicks from the work put into building a succesful team in FM.

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun.

Disagree, by comparison they were crap. CM01/02 gets rolled out for ***** and giggles every so often but the lack of depth limits that to a couple of hours.

[Katarian]

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more.

I still really enjoy playing the game, but it doesn't captivate me quite as much as it did 3-4 years ago.

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to.

It doesn't captivate me quite as much as it did 3-4 years ago. I hardly played FM11 and that little break from the game has meant I'm enjoying FM12 more.

- There are too many features.

I wouldn't say there are too many features. There are too many rubbish (Press Conferences, Player Interaction, basically everything that involves using the conversation system), poorly implemented (Agents, Training, Scouting), hidden away features that need tweaking or overhauling. Defending in the ME and Long Term AI are still rubbish and should of been addressed long before any of the newer features made it into the game.

- The game is too slow.

Adding/Removing leagues helps out here, but the game still slows down far too much in long term saves.

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more.

Definately. Moving clubs or taking your first management job is a massive pain. The fact scouts now come with reports when you first employ them is frankly fantastic but it's still hard work for the first six months of a new job. The UI is improving every year but there are far too many clicks to find some important information, it's made fiddling with tactics more annoying. I hate with a passion the new tone parts of the interface especially the Team Talks, it took me about 5-6 games to work out why my team was playing the wrong formation as I had selected the formation on the tactics screen but not set it as the starting formation.

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy.

Some of the stuff that has been added in the name is realism is complete rubbish, it should improve the game but doesn't. Yes agents are a massive part of football, but the current implementation is still awful. I've just finished a negotiation where an agent accepted a 10% wage rise for his client after starting out wanting a 300% wage rise, with top earner clause, and yearly wage rise. The cost? Increasing his fee from £10k to £40k, so I potentially saved well over £200k in wages over 2 years. That agent should be sacked immediately.

The most important things that could add to the realism I mentioned earlier, better defending in the ME, and long term AI. Currently 4 and a bit season into the game, and I have been offered the Oldham job and they have a squad of only 14 players and 3 of those are keepers. Preston are doing just as badly, they both have financial problems but even the top teams have almost completely disbanded their reserve teams and barely have 25 players to register for competitions.

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun.

It's still a lot of fun. I suppose it depends on what you like doing in FM. Some parts of the game are far too much work, too much clicking, too opaque.

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun.

Can't say I want that. The game has improved, not nessecarily in areas that I want it too. It might not improve every year but the game is better then 5 years ago.

[Dr. Hook]

Oh the necromancy. Still love FM, haven't played 12 yet, though I have it- still have an 11 save that I am enjoying. I thought it would be long over for me, but then again, I didn't start playing FM until my 30s anyway.

[rancer890]

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more.

No I still love it. I've relatively a new user having played since FM08 and the game has made improvements.

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to.

It's more or less the same to me since the beginning. I just have less time sometimes because of more coursework.

- There are too many features.

It's not a problem with too many features, it's a problem with the amount of features that actually work. I like agents and disagree that they shouldn't be in the game. If you stop being an arse to them they will be friendly and you can get more favourable contract terms in the future. I do not like match prep though, it's a useless feature IMO.

- The game is too slow.

I load every league in the game (minimum). I expect it to be slow!!!

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more.

I don't have much of a problem with that. I adapt quickly with each version.

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy.

Sometimes. I feel sometimes the game has gotten more complicated without much to show for it. And also FM is a very stressful game, which should be realistic because I'm sure being a football manager IRL is a very stressful job.

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun.

Definitely. I don't mind the work, just pay me with my virtual weekly wages ! I also can't really multi-task as much as I used to because FM feels like it takes a lot more time than it used to.

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun.

I only play the version with the most up to date MLS rules, which is often the latest version. So I usually have no interest in playing the older games. And the game is always going to get more features, and more challenging in the future, not the other way around. I would not buy a new FM if there aren't changes, because then I'll just stick with FM12. Yes, some features probably haven't worked to plan, but there is some improvement every year.

[kingjericho]

- The game is too slow.

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more.

I agree with these, and though I find the game slow at times I had my best save ever in FM11 and FM12 is looking good as well.

[Bootador]

Quite often, I'm reading on this forum something along these lines:

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more. FALSE

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to. TRUE

- There are too many features. TRUE

- The game is too slow. FALSE

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more. TRUE

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy. TRUE

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun. TRUE

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun. TRUE

So I'm conducting a poll in GD, and also inviting some of the users from OTF, in order to see how much the community agrees with these statements.

Feel free to add your own statements and to put your own perspective forward in this thread.

Answers above

[bleventozturk]

Theres so many features they add into the game to add realism but because they never work too well they break the realism, and next year it will be no better but there will be more new features that dont work too well.

Exactly this!

There are so many features already that need to be worked on, to improve realism, and every new version adds more of these. The game is not realistic enough, not because there aren't enough features, but because the existing features don't work well. And it will continue being like this until SI decide to change their mentality about how the future products should be improved.

[bullybeef]

I also believe that releasing annual FM versions should be scraped. To release a game that isn't playable until ppl actually play the game and highlight the bugs is very strange. I haven't bought a new copy of FM until around March time after release for a long while, and I rarely pay full price. But by the time I get into the game, and new and "improved" version is on the shelves.

Maybe SI should release a new game every 3-5 years and annually issue updates for previous versions, such as patches and transfer market changes. I understand this is a money driven business, but it seem it has become to the detriment of the fan. I would be happy to pay a charge for the annual update or mod at a cut price to keep the income coming in for future versions. A year just isn't long enough to persistently throw out new versions that really should be still under development.

If SI had three to five years to develop each version of FM, I'm sure they will improve the quality and implement new ideas to help new comers learn how to play the game. I think this is what is still lacking, particularly understanding the ME. Saying this, I hear some seasoned FM pros are struggling at times. I'm certainly no pro, but seven years playing various versions, and I am stumped most of the time when a new version changes everything I have come to understand from previous releases.

[milnerpoint]

5 years!!??? Seriously?

[bullybeef]

5 years!!??? Seriously?

Maybe SI should release a new game every 3-5 years and annually issue updates for previous versions....

Even every two years would be better than annually.

[grade]

I prefer the annually release.

SI, just needs to focus the recourses at their hands and improve the features of game and not release new features, just because they are a good selling strategy.

[Dr. Hook]

5 years!!??? Seriously?

At that rate, the Collyers would still be making it in their parent's basement!!

[adam426]

I don't really agree to be honest. I think the game is good and on the tactical side is better than ever before, although I wish you could save tactics the way you used to. But the things that put me off the most are things that are unrealistic like transfer fees and poor AI. They drain the fun more than anything. I think the game is great still.

[Sussex Hammer]

I must say that this is the first incarnation of FM that each patch has actually made the game worse!

[scott MUFC]

mix really, i enjoy playing it, but once you land in unrealistic territory to win the premier league it turns into frustration

and a match that was postponed over and over for cup games was squashed between a champions league game and a league match, runining my match fitness

[chocolatecoatedballs]

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more.

No, I have love and mung beans to spare.

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to.

No, I just wish more time was spent on the tactics and the ME rather than moral and interviews with media.

- There are too many features.

More the better, just want more from ME and tactics.

- The game is too slow.

No, I want to feel involved and have a say in everything.

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more.

What?

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy.

I would rather say the oposite, I wish for more realism in the ME and tactics, more expansion to the roles of players, each player has a role in a team, yet I feel as it is now, each player decides how he shall play in a formation.

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun.

No, I like a game full of procrastination and frustration, without, it is boring.

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun.

No, that is why I have bought this version.

[SuperJackLester]

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more. DISAGREE

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to. DISAGREE

- There are too many features. AGREE - Press Conferences / Private Chat are too repititive and frequent

- The game is too slow. DISAGREE - I've been running more leagues efficiently than i ever have on FM2012

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more. DISAGREE

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy. SLIGHTLY AGREE

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun. DISAGREE

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun. DISAGREE

[Mike7077]

I'm in pretty strong disagreement with all of those statements.

[heathxxx]

- I just don't feel the love for the game any more.

Disagree. I love football and I love the depth of detail that the game features. There are other football games out there, though FM is the only one I play.

- It doesn't have me hooked or occupy me the way it used to.

Undecided. Whilst I've never played the game fast and it takes me a while to play through a few seasons, it's still the only game that's always installed on any PC I have. That said, only personal commitments and circumstances have reduced the overall number of hours I can play each version of the game. I simply have less time to play than I used to. I have got more involved though, in the form of helping with moderation and research, which is quite a commitment to "the game".

- There are too many features.

Disagree. Whilst there are more features each year, I genuinely think most if not all have improved the game overall. Depends on user preference if they want to utilise all the features, or only some of them. For example, some people use the tactical analysis tools, some don't.

- The game is too slow.

Disagree. Whilst the game might have been slower on my older PC, it's much faster processing data on my newer PC. That said, I usually have all but several leagues running as playable, down to the lowest divisions in each of the selected countries. That's much more information to process, therefore the game runs slower, but suits my preferences. Other users might prefer to only have a couple of leagues running, therefore the game would process data exponentially faster. If you mean "slow" in terms of action, well... it's a management simulation... not a "fast" paced action orientated game such as FIFA or PES.

- The game doesn't feel as accessible and easy to get into any more.

Disagree. I think it's as accessible as ever. Indeed, I think the improvement of tools and features available to players (if they choose to use them), makes organising and creating tactics for example, much easier.

- The realism is good but it feels like the game is chasing realism at the expense of fun, imagination and fantasy.

Disagree. The game should strive to be as realistic as it possibly can be, it's a management simulation, after all. That said, the user has always had the possibility to shape things how they want them. With an editor available, users can change anything they want, create their own teams, leagues, transfers, etc, they want. That gives them the possibility to imagine whatever fantasy elements they want.

- The game feels too much like work and not enough like fun.

Disagree. Whilst for some, additional elements of the game may feel like a chore, I do feel the heart of the game has remained essentially the same. People don't have to use all the features if they don't want to, though they can be helpful. Insofar as effort is concerned, I believe the tools are there to make the game more accessible than it used to be, for example, with creating tactics.

- I long to play the older games that were simpler, more accessible and more fun.

Disagree. I always prefer the "latest" version. There are always features and improvement I enjoy using that weren't available in older versions.

Hope that fleshes out my answers.

[Football Manager.]

Most of the people who disagree with all of it are either unemployed or do minimal hours at places such as college / university. i would think any hard working person now who used to play it at a time with a lot of free time would agree with most of it

[milnerpoint]

I work full time, monday to friday, practise 3 times a week, ontop of everything else in life and i disagree strongly, please do not pigeon hole us.