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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2020 Pre-Release Beta *Official* Feedback Thread

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1 minute ago, bleventozturk said:

Hey man, I really appreciate your post. Like you say though, I want to see more of Liverpool vs. for example a Newcastle calibre team. But even in your examples there are some numbers that are concerning. Look at Barcelona-Fiorentina. 22 shots vs. 1 shot. You almost never see something like this irl. And you just can't say 'it is just one game', because it is more the norm in ME in such matchups than the exception.

I guess I will continue my FM 17 save now :(

 

Yeah, i figured that was what you were looking for. They're not on full detail but i can give it a check anyway, if you want.
Barcelona was butchering Fiorentina in that game.
Same with Liverpool v Juventus, Barcelona v Dortmund

Just keep in mind that many shots doesn't necessarily mean a barrage of quality shots. There are probably quite a few bad farts in a hurricane shots as well, which are still shots.

Liverpool in the Premier League (not on full detail):

Crystal Palace (20th) v Liverpool: Shots 5 v 20. Long shots 1 v 5
Liverpool v Arsenal (4th): Shots 16 v 14. Long shots 5 v 6
Aston Villa (17th) v Liverpool: Shots 4 v 11. Long shots 1 v 3
Liverpool v Leicester (10th): Shots 23 v 3. Long shots 3 v 1
Liverpool v Brighton (9th): Shots 15 v 4. Long shots 5 v 2
Norwich (18th) v Liverpool: Shots 6 v 19. Long shots 2 v 11
Liverpool v Wolves (8th): Shots 13 v 2. Long shots 2 v 1

That's just a few. 

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The biggest issue with the ME by far is players shooting from impossible angles instead of passing 

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7 minutes ago, rain94 said:

Those longshots are already included in the total shot count I believe.

Indeed. Long shots are included in the total shots.

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I just love the latest version of the ME. By the way: My wife, who likes football, but (so far) is not into FM, just looked at a match over my shoulder and said that was such a nice move! when one of my players heel-kicked the ball to one of his team mates. Now I'm a bit scared she'll steal the game from me.

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5 hours ago, Ben Kenney said:

That sounds like an issue to me. If you have a save game from before the Chairman put in the contract extension could you please start a thread over in the Transfer and Contract bugs forum. 

Details on how to upload a save game can be found below. 

 

Turns out I wasn't careful enough.

image.thumb.png.ada8cda9ed7f9907e91ec8ac99a12ecf.png

On this page the chairman was selected. My bad :)

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6 minutes ago, rain94 said:

And they're total shots and not shot on target. I see nothing wrong (at least to be alarmed by) with those numbers...unless I am misunderstanding.

They are.
I don't see anything wrong with the numbers either. The occassional oddity, sure.
I was thinking about including shots on target as well but i opted against it.
Shots on target varied quite a bit in relation to total shots.

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54 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

Exactly. The first option there should be Pepe. This is still a ball that is played diagonal across the field, just shorter distance. ME is heavily leaning on these diagonal balls, at a cost of missing obvious short through balls into the space in front of the forwards.

This is it. 

It's a lovely assist, but is still essentially exploiting the space in a wide position. Nothing wrong with that, but still needs to more 1-2s, lay offs, risky passes attempted in tight corridors. 

Just feels like if a defender is within a couple yards of the attacker, any potential play is completely ignored to avoid any physical confrontation. 

I don't want a high success rate, just let me see if it attempted if I've instructed them to. If a player has poor technique and can't retain possession then so be it, at least then I can adapt or bring in players that can. 

 

 

 

 

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I know they include long shots, I am just looking at the total shots per game. I just checked some real life Champions league matches, and the average shots per game in those matches was around 22, vs. the average from the matches in roykela's post was around 26. FM is not too far off it seems (granted this is small sample), in terms of total shots. The difference is more in disparity though. Irl the weaker teams do not always get dominated in shot count, and you very rarely see 25 shots vs 1 shot matches. Like one poster (Svenc) said multiple times, this happens in ME mostly because of the inferior teams' approach to the games.

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41 minutes ago, rain94 said:

 I see nothing wrong (at least to be alarmed by) with those numbers...unless I am misunderstanding.

Those are 26 shots per match average. Not sure if any of those went overtime, naturally. There seems some harum-scarum stuff  in there between fairly attacking Teams that have seen some harum scarum Matches in the past (and which usually are reknow for taking a lot of shots, Madrid under Zidane oft 20 shots average -- even if his side struggled to score from those for like half a league Season in 2017 :D). The more curious one is the Fiorentina one, probably, but if it was the 1st leg tie, the AI probably picked the "shut up shop" Approach again to not get trashed at Camp Nou and have a better chance in the 2nd. In the end, you can't talk About shot Counts without Talking match Management. I agree that it's never been particularly realistic. You also can't talk About it in Isolation without watching what has actually happened though. It may be full of wird Things that numbers would never pick up on, who knows. 

Overall, those numbers are bang average, which is probably no surprise as this stuff is soak tested by SI. Shot data is one of the Things they extensively look at (naturally, only between AI vs AI, so no 80 crapshots Matches in Zero space with one of those Chinese Chicken Wing illogical tactics). Indeed, it was actually the sample size provided by roykela in the league with Cork that provided numbers significantly below average. The average shout Count in football is usually around ~25. PS: Speaking match management- I was top of the league with Juventus somewhere in between FM16-18 with an average of but 13 shots (I had noted it down, and no kidding). However, I don't think my Kind of match Management was quite like anything they do it in real Football likewise -- basically, Recycling Possession and shuffling the ball Deep every time I took the lead. :D 

tv3U1Q7.jpg

Edited by Svenc

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4 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

"..., risky passes attempted in tight corridors. 

Just feels like if a defender is within a couple yards of the attacker, any potential play is completely ignored to avoid any physical confrontation. 

I don't want a high success rate, just let me see if it attempted if I've instructed them to. If a player has poor technique and can't retain possession then so be it, at least then I can adapt or bring in players that can. "

 

This 100% for the love of god. The first approach to FM 21 ME should be this. Achieve this first, whatever tweak is necessary. Then, spend the rest of the year developing the defending to prevent a huge number of those opportunities from being created.

 

 

 

Edited by bleventozturk

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2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Those are 26 shots per match average. Not sure if any of those went overtime, naturally. There seems some harum-scarum stuff  in there between fairly attacking Teams that have seen some harum scarum Matches in the past (and which usually are reknow for taking a lot of shots, Madrid under Zidane oft 20 shots average). The more curious one is the Fiorentina one, probably, but if it was the 1st leg tie, the AI probably picked the "shut up shop" Approach again to not get trashed at Camp Nou.  In the end, you can't talk About shot Counts without Talking match Management. I agree that it's never been particularly realistic. You also can't talk About it in Isolation without watching what has actually happened though.

Overall, those numbers are bang average, which is probably no surprise as this stuff is soak tested by SI. Shot data is one of the Things they extensively look at (naturally, only between AI vs AI, so no 80 crapshots Matches in Zero space with one of those Chinese Chicken Wing illogical tactics). Indeed, it was actually the sample size provided by roykela that provided numbers below average. The average shout Count is usually around ~25.

Agreed. 

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The ironic thing is those dinked diagonals or cross field balls to the far post are more difficult to pull of in real life than the basic 5 yard forward pass we're lacking. 

 

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1 minute ago, dannyfc said:

The ironic thing is those dinked diagonals or cross field balls to the far post are more difficult to pull of in real life than the basic 5 yard forward pass we're lacking. 

 

Again, very good point. This is why the ME does not look like real football at all. You can still enjoy it, but only if you can make piece with what it is.

Edited by bleventozturk

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7 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

I don't want a high success rate, just let me see if it attempted if I've instructed them to. If a player has poor technique and can't retain possession then so be it, at least then I can adapt or bring in players that can. 

That's exactly how I feel, I'm not expecting it to happen 20 times a match, that's not how football works, but at least try a risky pass even if it's not successful or the shot from the chance is  saved, I at least want to see them try when there's such an obvious chance to play a ball through. If you can play a 30 yard pass out wide you can surely have a go at a 15 yard central pass

In my few days with FM15, the above is what I saw, a player would at least try even if it wasn't successful 

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1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Sometimes I think people expect far too much from this game. If you play the game constantly analysing whether this part or that part is EXACTLY like real life and are constantly looking out for things wrong with it, you're never going to have a good time with it. Yeah, leave feedback and report bugs, but leave the stressing about it to the devs and enjoy it for what it is. The best football management game on the planet. Bar none. 

 

You are right in general. But this is a really important part of what we are presented with in the ME. It is not a small thing, but a fundamental flaw.

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The irony is if the game WAS exactly like real life, there would be 100 times more complaints than there are now. The players in FM don't make anywhere near as many errors as most players in real life. 

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19 minutes ago, Viking said:

I just love the latest version of the ME. By the way: My wife, who likes football, but (so far) is not into FM, just looked at a match over my shoulder and said that was such a nice move! when one of my players heel-kicked the ball to one of his team mates. Now I'm a bit scared she'll steal the game from me.

Get a new wife, just to be safe

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1 minute ago, Svenc said:

Those are 26 shots per match average. Not sure if any of those went overtime, naturally. There seems some harum-scarum stuff  in there between fairly attacking Teams that have seen some harum scarum Matches in the past (and which usually are reknow for taking a lot of shots, Madrid under Zidane oft 20 shots average). The more curious one is the Fiorentina one, probably, but if it was the 1st leg tie, the AI probably picked the "shut up shop" Approach again to not get trashed at Camp Nou.  In the end, you can't talk About shot Counts without Talking match Management. I agree that it's never been particularly realistic. You also can't talk About it in Isolation without watching what has actually happened though.

Overall, those numbers are bang average, which is probably no surprise as this stuff is soak tested by SI. Shot data is one of the Things they extensively look at (naturally, only between AI vs AI, so no 80 crapshots Matches in Zero space with one of those Chinese Chicken Wing illogical tactics). Indeed, it was actually the sample size provided by roykela that provided numbers below average. The average shout Count is usually around ~25.


Can't really remember but i don't think any of them went OT.
It was my impression (although can't say for a fact) that Fiorentina went the "shut up shop" route.
As you say; without watching the games it's hard to tell what actually went on, so talking about it in isolation is a no-go.

Watching my own games on comprehensive highlights i do see quite a bit of variation in play and finishing.
Players are (seemingly) following my instructions. I have Work The Ball In Box ticked and the amount of Long Shots aren't great.
A few shots are terrible. Some of them are "regular" shots and a low percentage are audacious shots.

I see the crosses. I see the through-balls. I see the lay-downs. I see the clever passes (although not many. My players don't have that quality). The rushed shots. The placed shots etc.
From my own experience, considering the level i'm managing at, it is the best ME i have seen in a long time, if not THE best, when comparing to other FMs. 

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Dagenham_Dave:

Sometimes I think people expect far too much from this game. If you play the game constantly analysing whether this part or that part is EXACTLY like real life and are constantly looking out for things wrong with it, you're never going to have a good time with it. Yeah, leave feedback and report bugs, but leave the stressing about it to the devs and enjoy it for what it is. The best football management game on the planet. Bar none. 

 

Mostly I can agree. But giving feedback and reporting bugs is important to improve this game. And when I see how things have improved from the final version FM19 to the actual version...this is a great feeling

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5 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The best ONLY football management game on the planet. Bar none. 

 

Changed that for you :brock:

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1 minute ago, Johnny Ace said:

That's exactly how I feel, I'm not expecting it to happen 20 times a match, that's not how football works, but at least try a risky pass even if it's not successful or the shot from the chance is  saved, I at least want to see them try when there's such an obvious chance to play a ball through. If you can play a 30 yard pass out wide you can surely have a go at a 15 yard central pass

In my few days with FM15, the above is what I saw, a player would at least try even if it wasn't successful 

Absolutely. Those through balls have to be played, whatever ME tweak they require. Then I want to see how the defenders will handle it. First of all, a lot of those through ball attempts will not be successful (but they have to be tried, as they are the obvious choice). And when they are successfully played, then we should see a quick burst from nearby defenders to close down in an attempt not to give much time to the receiver to take a clean shot.

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1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The irony is if the game WAS exactly like real life, there would be 100 times more complaints than there are now. The players in FM don't make anywhere near as many errors as most players in real life. 

They also don't suddenly stop scoring for five months, even though they are the reigning World Player Of The Year. :D 

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3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The irony is if the game WAS exactly like real life, there would be 100 times more complaints than there are now. The players in FM don't make anywhere near as many errors as most players in real life. 

Totally agree with this, and that's exactly another major complaint of mine. But that's just me.

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1 minute ago, 53bast1an said:

But giving feedback and reporting bugs is important to improve this game. And when I see how things have improved from the final version FM19 to the actual version...this is a great feeling

Oh absolutely, but there comes a point when you see people frothing at the mouth because Player A didn't pass the ball to Player B in the way they are demanding. I never want this game to be a simple game of Xs and Os, I want players to play the wrong pass, I want players playing it out the park. I saw one of my players earlier have a shot and it went for a throw in :lol:. After I'd got over the shock, I realised that was great that the ME could produce that. What's important is balance, and having the right players with the right attributes making the right decisions a higher percentage of the time than other players. That's the big challenge for SI, but IMO that's as close just now as it's ever been (along with the finished FM17 engine) 

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6 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

:lol::lol::lol:

I would love to see the video for that. 

 

 

Also 4 minutes earlier he scored en equaliser and we looked like scoring again up to that point. We lost.

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3 minutes ago, Iwabik said:

 

 

Also 4 minutes earlier he scored en equaliser and we looked like scoring again up to that point. We lost.

Glorious. 

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I don't want to come across as some moany old bugger, I do genuinely want what's best for the game

I'm just chilling here, getting in a game before I go out to watch England

I'm at home to Leverkusen, first game of the 20/21 season, my tactic's pretty bog standard, 4-2-3-1, balanced mentally, standard lines, a couple of TI's nothing over the top

The score's 3-2

We score first from a corner, Lever equalise with a ball out wide to the IF(A), we go ahead with a penalty & make it 3-1 from another corner, Bayer pull one back with a header from a cross

There's one striker on the pitch that's scored & that was from a penalty

I know the centre of the pitch is generally congested & play funnels out wide but it's all I see, goals either created wide or scored from wide positions, central play exists but it's way too rare 

In fact, I've just looked to check the game & my centre back's just booted one 30 yards to Brandt rather than make a simple pass to a central midfielder who's free in the middle of the park. I'm not over analysing here, I'm just saying what I see :D 

Untitled.thumb.png.bf3854cc209b24a92e0c98115dd25c9e.png

 

I watched the highlights of Man U doing Villa 7-0 in another save, their two AML/Rs got 5 of the goals & the other two came from crosses

I've just had Coman score, W(A), another goal from wide  

ETA: 5-2, Coman again 

Edited by Johnny Ace

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If anyone was wanting to mess around with Inter Miami (building an MLS team virtually from scratch), the issue preventing you from hiring staff seems to have been resolved. 

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ME is superb. Please don't change anything till something game breaking is discovered. For all its little faults it has some glorious moments. Best ME since 17 easily. 

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45 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

The ironic thing is those dinked diagonals or cross field balls to the far post are more difficult to pull of in real life than the basic 5 yard forward pass we're lacking. 

 

Yes indeed, and they are sorely missed. FM17 was fundamentally flawed; but, every now and then your players would link up and do something beautiful when it really mattered. I miss this kind of give-and-go one-two combination play in the centre:

 In the final minute of extra time as well..

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23 hours ago, OlivierL said:

does anyone know if this a bug or something wrong from my end ?

my filters were created on fm20, they worked on my first test save, now on my next save .. i know for sure i saw them but suddenly i can't import them, because they are not their.

something about the PFT and FMF file ?

a55a0ff6ea8ddda6e0f8a65cd1cdc24c.png

8af3176192315d3d50e1b16a66ce9c02.png

Please help, thanks

anyone please ? should i report this as a bug or did i do something wrong ?

Edited by OlivierL

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hace 35 minutos, rdbayly dijo:

Yes indeed, and they are sorely missed. FM17 was fundamentally flawed; but, every now and then your players would link up and do something beautiful when it really mattered. I miss this kind of give-and-go one-two combination play in the centre:

 In the final minute of extra time as well..

Exactly what we are missing in Fm19 and FM20!

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Dagenham_Dave:

Sometimes I think people expect far too much from this game. If you play the game constantly analysing whether this part or that part is EXACTLY like real life and are constantly looking out for things wrong with it, you're never going to have a good time with it. Yeah, leave feedback and report bugs, but leave the stressing about it to the devs and enjoy it for what it is. The best football management game on the planet. Bar none. 

 

Agreed. It's a perfect example of some people searching for mistakes and bugs. Some user posts stats from 21 matches, 18 normal and 3 maybe off. Then someone says "look at these 3 examples, this would never happen in real life, game is broken, back to 17". I don't get it. 

Edited by Defensive

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14 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

I get you but i disagree.

There was more variety of play in earlier FMs, and it was exciting to visually see the impact a new signing with high calibre attributes would have on your game. (i.e. finishing, vision, tackling)

The problem then was the game was easily exploitable. Space was a non-issue and weak but quick strikers could ghost through defences unopposed. 

Since FM 2013 Si have done a fantastic job of replicating team shape and cohesion. If you constrict the space available the opposition team will struggle just like in real life, which is great and more realistic. 

But as mentioned above, it's at the cost of individuality and moments of rare brilliance. I don't see a significant difference between top tier teams and my conference north side. Both are reluctant to attempt anything remotely risky if the space is limited, hence why those floated through balls and long-shots are ramped up to compensate. The only visual difference is the conversion rate and effectiveness of each. 

Artificial intelligence is incredibly complex, by far and way the hardest thing for a developer to replicate. I don't doubt Sigames are aware of what the game lacks and strive to implement it. That said, currently there's fundamental elements of football missing. I don't expect to see the game replicated 1:1, but to enjoy it I do need to see those basic phases of football you see regularly attempted at every level. Again, I don't want my tier 8 players to be constantly threading deft passes with incredible success rate. But I want to see it attempted, and I want to see that effectiveness and understanding between players increase the more they play together the further up the pyramid you progress. 

For me that's what FM is all about; creating an identity then slowly realising it through training and acquisition of the right players to execute. Progressing from aimless football full of mistakes to eventually seeing it all come together. (at which point ironically you become bored)

Right now, I just feel like I'm watching more or less the same few phases of play again and again. Long ball, offside, cross field ball, or diagonal to the far post where a player is lurking unopposed. And it's been like that for at least 3 iterations now and just feels stale to me.

  

 

Fantastic post. A little harsh in places perhaps, but the general sentiment is spot on. Some of the magic had to be reigned in for the game to be considered a simulation. The days of strikers bagging 60 goals a season could only carry on for so long; but this has come at a great aesthetic cost.

As for the text in bold, this is the problem. In tightening up the AI mentality to counter exploits, they pose no real threat to an aggressive set up with a bunch of thrown together individuals. In recent iterations it has been repeatedly demonstrated that you can take over a seemingly deficient team, yet smash the AI in the first season without having to slowly realise your vision over time.

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59 minutes ago, ImDaWeasel said:

ME is superb. Please don't change anything till something game breaking is discovered. For all its little faults it has some glorious moments. Best ME since 17 easily. 

There's definitely much more room for Improvement though I'll honestly be disappointed if this was the ME for the full game

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3 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

Watford v Arsenal.pkmAlthough improvements have been made with the ME its very obvious there is one big element still missing, central play with through balls, this has been ignored for too long!!

I would really love to hear some official feedback on why players decide to play the ball out wide rather than opting to play a through ball. I cant enjoy the game because I want my team to play through balls and not score the majority my goals from crosses. I setup my team to play in a certain style I expect the ME to reflect my decisions.

Please can someone from SI have a discussion about this. Me and many others spent a lot of time last year supplying SI with data on the lack of central play and through balls. Why are we in exactly the same position, there has been zero improvement, and I would like to know WHY please!!

Here is a PKM showing Pepe @ 39 mins playing the ball out wide rather than playing the ball through...

Watford v Arsenal.pkm 65.69 kB · 0 downloads

Here is screen shot

image.thumb.png.0755bda730eacad77c21f885c5295dab.png

 

Here is a screen shot of all the forward passes completed for Liverpool, look at the central 1/3 NOTHING!!!

image.thumb.png.ed62379fa1073899909f05d11ae77876.png

 

 

I think we are all on same page here aren't we? I can only imagine that every single attempt to rectify this in the ME code opens Pandora's box.
 

Edit: Even if Pandora's box was open, they'd still pass out wide.

Edited by rdbayly

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I'll just drop these here. ;)

 

 

Edited by Armistice

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Might just start playing my midfield playmaker at wing-back.

OK right I'll stop, made my point. I'm glad people are enjoying the game, i'll wait to the full release and have another go - if not fingers crossed for next year i guess. 

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1 minute ago, Weller1980 said:

That's exactly what IM missing, why do so many people not realise. There's got to be something seriously wrong with the ME, but there is no communication from the Devs.

Important point though - These passes shouldn't happen all the time, just some of the time. At least when the specific circumstances play out so that said pass is the best decision a player can make instead of a 30 yard cross-field ball.

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Seen comments about a lack of individual brilliance, how players never score from 1 on 1s etc.

What happens in my very first game after reading those comments, against this seasons bogey team?

 

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Just now, rdbayly said:

Important point though - These passes shouldn't happen all the time, just some of the time. At least when the specific circumstances play out so that said pass is the best decision a player can make instead of a 30 yard cross-field ball.

Totally agree! A large parentage of goals are scored from wide areas I get that but, the complete lack of central play for 2 years running isn't acceptable from my point of view. 

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8 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Seen comments about a lack of individual brilliance, how players never score from 1 on 1s etc.

What happens in my very first game after reading those comments, against this seasons bogey team?

 

Not being funny but he's literally just pegging it into acres of space.

Brilliance for me is playing a deft one touch pass. Or wriggling out of a tight space with tricky footwork while surrounded by defenders. Or a killer first touch. Or a well executed give or go. Or a targetman receiving the ball with his back to goal , then swiveling to shoot in one motion. Small decisive moments that catch the defence unawares. 

The video you posted is the type of goal you see at U'9 youth level when there's a kid faster/stronger than the rest. 

Edited by dannyfc

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