Join the Football Manager 2019 Public Beta today!

[Mitja]

9 hours ago, Svenc said:

The defensive mentality has never produced that in itself. Dunno about the current patched release, but the main obstacle actually starts, or used to, how AI allocate roles and duties. If they play "attacking" football, they tend to go with aggressive duties, oft disconnecting the forward line from midfield, prohibiting much interlinking, build up play and passing options. Additionally, they previously also oft fielded no much players who would control the centre of the park, which is utterly crucial. Additionally, AI manage matches dynamically, so switch those roles/duties during the course of a match. Typically: If they want to push for another goals, attack duties are added. Vice versa, defensive ones, etc.

If you want AI who actually is able to reproduce a "style", it is of utmost importance to get them to the point that they actually "think" in the spaces required to do so. Given that it's been the roles and duties governing positioning in possession, this is the thing to start. I'd group them together so that AI could use them more logically, like runners, holders, etc. As shown in the tactical forums too, there's nothing that inherently inhibits a more possession based style of play with the more aggressive mentalities (though the ball tends to be moved forward more quickly). That's how it's used to be more previous anyway.

defensive mentality is low tempo, high time wasting, ''pig in the middle tactics'' that accumulates plently of possession and looks like total tiki-taka when you watch the game. there are three or four major issues here:

- defensive mentality tactics don't produce style claimed in description. the same is true for attacking tactics.

- no manager would ever try to play ''tiki-taka'' style as his ''defensive'' tactics choice, especilly not against top quality opponents. it happens all the time in FM. irl team needs sufficient player quality for such high risk/low reward tactics.

- even if he tried to employ such style his team would be trashed into pieces in no time. that's why most bottom teams play more direct/counter attacking football. FM database represents this idea very well.

- such tatctics are totally overpowered possession wise and this is in conflict with football logics and probably one of the key issues why particular AI managed top teams underachieve in FM. they play against ''defensive'' teams and tactics all the time.

- once the AI switches to ''defensive'' tacics he doesn't play his normal style set by researchers anymore. it switches to ''tiki-taka''.

- many of the above issues would be far less visible if mentality had less efect on passing directness and decisions.

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

so ''attack'' has nothing to do with controling possession in final third, how many players team has further up, or how many players join counter-attacks. pressing all over the pitch? team can't play ''attacking'' with ground passing style? what about player and team quality?   

You are acting like there is just two mentalities... Controlled possession... Isnt necessarily a mentality... But you could liken it to control/positive where the play is progressive rather than neutral but not as high tempo as attacking. 

Id say for a team like city that style is their base... So 'normal' and its the players at their disposal who keep the ball through TI and attributes/ppm

Counter attacking... Theres a mentality and/or instruction for that too... Keep men behind the ball until the opportune moment and then you become attacking for a phase of play

[Mitja]

sorry but i don't get what you are trying to say. i don't think there's anything like counter-attacking mentality, or any other irl, there are strictly defined moves, worked out in training ground...

[thejay]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb divij13:

I feel that this Public Beta is a fantastic idea. I also would like to commend SI for the work they are doing on the game with the constant patches and fixes. It seems to me like there is more communication with users on the forum which is great!  Apologies for the length of this post in advance. I’ve spent quite a few hours on the latest ME(1916), here are my thoughts:

In my opinion, the latest ME1916 is definitely an improvement on the last and is the best one in FM19 till date. I use the same tactic that I used in FM18 and all the versions of the FM19 ME. I feel that helps in keeping this analysis uniform across the board. I will compare player movement to FM18 which according to me was a very well balanced ME.

Tactic:

The main issue according to me with FM19 is that all players in the defending team now position themselves deeper than they did in FM18. This is a great thing for low blocks as I have seen with my DLF(s) dropping down to below the half way line when the opposition has the ball. Even on Balanced / Positive mentality. Compare the movement of DLF(s) in FM18 and FM19 to see the difference in the positioning. (Also, it’s not the Regroup TI, that was added to help control the pressing and doubling up I was seeing without it selected) 

It’s with all teams including AI. The defending team is playing deeper and narrower than in FM18. Which is making the attackers take more advanced and narrower positions in the final phase of the attack to find space. There are threads about this issue in the bugs forum, but I feel that the underlying issue causing the attackers to behave in such a way is the deeper positioning of all players in the defending team apart from attack duty strikers.

And not so much the attacking positioning of the attackers, especially in the build up phases of the attack where they are moving like they should. It’s only the last phase where the defence is narrow and deep that all the attackers regardless of role or duty position themselves in the box and narrow. 

In my tactic, I have a hard time keeping WM(s) from attacking like a striker in the box when the ball is in the final phase of attack before a penetrative pass can be played. Even if I change him to WP(s) which has Hold Position on by default. Though this aggressive movement is only in the final phase of attacking play, not the build up play. 

In terms of defending, it’s as if the baseline tactic in FM19 has the following TI’s selected in the FM18 ME:

• Much Lower D line
• Tight Marking
• Get Stuck In

Find below, screenshots of one of my matches in this ME(1916). Look at the tackle percentages! Not just defenders, but the whole team. Mine and the AI. I don’t use any defensive TI’s in my system apart from Higher LOE. PKM attached at the end of the post.

To reduce some free kicks which are natural consequence of the low block, I feel that tackling has been overpowered in this latest ME(1916).

During set pieces, it’s as if the ME reverts to Default mode for the first attack from the set piece (direct or indirect). Players in the defending team are positioned with a low D-line till the first attack is complete or the ball has been won back. The attackers are more aggressive and are mostly first to the ball.  

To conclude, I feel that the baseline FM19 low block defence coupled with the attackers being too aggressive with their movement in the final phase of the attack is making this ME dull with hardly any central play or intelligent movement. Deep defending is having a knock on effect on the attacking movement in the final phase leading to a lack of dribbles and key passes and also crosses and shots getting blocked.

Goals will come from crosses that haven’t been blocked or from central play that is the result of a quick counter attack but that is rare in this ME in my experience.

Hope this feedback helps!

Sporting Kansas City v LA Galaxy.pkm

But attackers shouldn't move like that when the opponent plays deep and narrow. 

 

Why play in their hands to push up and group yourself narrow together that's the opposite of what you want playing against à team defending like that. 

 

And yet attackers do that in the final third of the attack always regardless of instructions to stay wider or different mentalities or using a false nine etc. 

This has been an issue in fm18 as well but not to that extent. 

 

I think the new way of defending broke the match engine in a way 

 

[vonreichsm]

Is it so, that a tactic with 3 attackers is exploit? Last year for FM18 you won every game with 3 attackers.

[Novem9]

22 часа назад, Amarante сказал:

To reply to the guys above on mentalities: 

Attacking football doesn't always mean high possession and defensive football doesn't mean i play direct and long ball. 

Carlo Ancelotti plays attacking football but his sides don't dominate possession, Liverpool plays attacking football but they don't always seek the ball. Alex Ferguson Manu played attacking football 

Possession football can be both defensive and attacking. Louis Van Gaal Manu team was not attacking but they had loads of possession. 

Its only the media that tries to make the correlation between attacking football and possession-based football. Persons like Pep and Sarri are just disciples of positional play which leads to having a high number of passes which leads to having the ball. They don't set up there team to dominate the ball, but because of positional play, they end up with high ball possession. 

 

In FM i like to think of mentalities as a scale. When on an attacking mentality the chances that your creative players will make that riskier pass is at 8/10 while on a lower mentality its a 5/10. The mentality in FM governs risk-taking and how much freedom you allow your players with the ball. 

Just wow!

[Novem9]

Just today realize that open beta continiue after release

Already found and public interface issue 

Recruit arrived at the service, sir!

[Neil Brock]

Just a reminder that if you find an issue with the public beta, please raise is on our public beta bugs forum here - https://community.sigames.com/forum/670-public-beta-forum/

Albeit we'll generally only be replying during weekday work hours. The sooner you let us know, the sooner we can start working on a fix! 

[divij13]

Something struck me today while looking at a few matches on ME1916. I might be completely wrong so do let me know what you think.

I feel that the removal of Team Shape for FM19 is responsible for the odd behaviour I’m seeing on all FM19 match engines till date.

Team Shape now referred to as Team Fluidity is controlled by Duties and the new Transition settings in Team Instructions:

 

Counter is what it used to be like on the Fluid side of things on FM18 and Hold Shape veers towards the Structured side of things in FM18.

Similarly with Counter Pressing (Fluid) as opposed to Regroup (Structured).

It feels like the baseline team shape SI has started with for FM19 is Very Fluid. Could be the reason that I see doubling up unless I select the Regroup TI.

It’s as if the baseline tactic in FM19 has the following TI’s selected in the FM18 ME:

• Much Lower D line
• Tight Marking
• Get Stuck In
• Very Fluid

The new team instructions have been added to give us more control over Team Fluidity.

But the problem is that it’s only working till a certain point on the pitch. I feel like in FM19 attacking players are moving like they did on Very Fluid in FM18 after they reach the final third. Even if my team fluidity on FM19 says Structured and I have Hold Position and Regroup TI’s selected.

I suspect this is also happening when the team is defending in their own half. So we’re getting Very Fluid Defending vs. Very Fluid Attacking once the play is in its final phase at either end of the pitch no matter what Team Fluidity says. This causes attacking players to have similar movement regardless of roles. And why I’m seeing fewer chances created in FM19 than in FM18. It’s not that the definition of those chances has changed, but this kind of football (Very Fluid vs Very Fluid in the final third) doesn’t generate many chances.

It’s near impossible to break teams down that defend deep on FM19 resulting in the ball being played out wide so much. In FM18 we could change to a Structured shape to draw the opposition out. FM19 seems to default to Very Fluid in the final third making this impossible. Unless there is a counter or a direct ball played in which case attacking movement is how you would expect because the defence hasn’t been able to get back into their block and there are gaps to exploit.

In my opinion, it was a great move to remove Team Shape for FM19 and move towards a more intuitive tactical user interface. But I feel this odd team fluidity behaviour in the final phase of play needs to be looked at. Then we would have as much tactical freedom as in FM18 and a more intuitive tactical interface. We’re not quite there yet.

As I said before, I'm no expert. Would like to know what other people think.  

[HUNT3R]

@divij13 There is no Team Shape in FM19. Team Fluidity is, but it's just a label whereas Team Shape did alter settings.

[divij13]

Thanks for the correction. I've updated my post to reflect that.

[Johnny Ace]

I've noticed a couple of things, I watch the game in Comp. highlights, I don't know what causes it but it changes to Full Match after I've tinkered with tactics

Also, if you use the Opp. Instructions shortcut & don't make any changes, you now have to cancel it with the red X

I had a blatant own goal credited to one of my players in a game just too

I do think the ME has improved but it's fully there yet 

[Novem9]

20 минут назад, Johnny Ace сказал:

I do think the ME has improved but it's fully there yet 

Its improved, but slightly for Rubicon. I guess its issue of balance between attack and defence. If developers set good moves and combinations for attacks, scores will be like hockey with current defence settings.

Hope this balance will be found soon

[Johnny Ace]

Yeah, it's Opp. Instructions shortcut, whenever you use it it changes the Match Highlights to Full

[Mitja]

5 hours ago, divij13 said:

But the problem is that it’s only working till a certain point on the pitch. I feel like in FM19 attacking players are moving like they did on Very Fluid in FM18 after they reach the final third...

... and when they reach final third there's no more movement especially from forwards. there's no dropping deep, running towards ball carrier, sideways movement. wide forwards staying in the box are doing the defending for opposition instead of trying to stretch play and make openings. 

if i try to be even more critical there's very little real movement even before the final third, just running forward and then back. i'm yet to see IF moving centrally without the ball before final third or dropping deep for example. allways on the same spot. 

[NicWar]

I haven't tried this beta branch, nor been able to read through all the comments yet...but was wondering if this was still a thing. More specifically the second and fifth posts.

[Bakiano]

I dont want to sound annoying or something, but when will they release a new update?

[pauly15]

On 25/11/2018 at 01:20, divij13 said:

It’s near impossible to break teams down that defend deep on FM19 resulting in the ball being played out wide so much... Unless there is a counter or a direct ball played in which case attacking movement is how you would expect because the defence hasn’t been able to get back into their block and there are gaps to exploit.

Yes. Once in the opposition half, all of Messi's passes go back or wide, despite my trying to set up to give him nothing but central forward options.

 

I find the new ME much better than the previous, and slightly better than the Beta. Still some improvements possible though. 

Did a little analysis on this issue here: 

 

[It's Baggio]

Played a few games, there seems to be more Football being played in the final third, instead of constantly looking for the ealy ball.

Still massive issues with corners, though,

[Lanko]

On 23/11/2018 at 09:18, Neil Brock said:

They're hard coded to one. Similar to Liechtenstein IRL UEFA has restricted them to a limited number of slots independent of their co-efficient. If we had evidence to suggest this shouldn't be the case we could make a change. 

Neil, found this about the issue with Kosovo's spots:

Liechtenstein is restricted independent of co-efficient because they only run a cup and not a league (their seven teams play in Switzerland's league), much different from Kosovo, which has 3 full divisions.

Gibraltar started with the same amount of spots as Kosovo, but based on their co-efficients, they gained more spots: https://www.gibraltarfa.com/news/20-09-2016/Gibraltar-gains-an-additional-spot-in-the-europa-league

So by the same reason, if Kosovo's co-efficients improve, they can do the same as Gibraltar and gain more spots as normal like the other nations as the co-efficients keep improving. 

But such a situation is currently impossible to be happen because of the hard code. I would ask that to be looked into. It's very unlikely the AI is gonna do anything crazy in Kosovo, but for a human player to try a "improve the nation" save in Kosovo, it would be very frustrating to be forever be hard locked like this, specially considering the very long term these saves tend to be and how the situation would most likely change in the real world.

[Spurs08]

@Neil Brock Think there is an error in the changelist - I'm assuming the EPL and Championship are getting VAR in season two, not the goalline tech they've had for ages now.

[Lord Rowell]

Here are some more thoughts and observations. For context, I'm playing as PSG. All matches played since the latest ME update have been in Lique 1, and against lesser opposition.

I've been playing tactics and roles to try and actively generate more central play, with little success. So, for example, 4231. After using my standard of 1 IF and 1 W, I've used combinations of IFs, APs and both, as the former even on standard width, was generating nothing but crosses.

To get any kind of central play at all, I've had to play "fairly narrow" or "narrow, with aforementioned IF / AP roles. When I do this, on occasion, the AP / IF will come central. When they do create a shooting opportunity, they tend to miss (these are good players e.g. Neymar) or the keeper saves, or there is a blocked shot.

I'm not seeing enough of players cutting inside, and delivering a ball on their favoured inside foot. Instead, they almost always run for the byline, and try and cross from there, which usually gets blocked for a corner.

I think the problems, in addition to what @Mensell76 identified earlier re. central strikers, is the movement of wide players i.e.

- they run for the byline, even when there is ample space to cut inside

- they aren't timing their runs, they go too early and find themselves running against a wide defender, rather than sometimes arriving a bit later and getting into pockets of space where they can do damage

- When they do find space to shoot, finishing is really poor, from top / elite players

In addition, when you do get a counter-attack, the movement and decision-making of the players breaking forward is poor. They often make the same runs and lack of penetrative short though-balls or appropriate square balls, with the chances then being squandered,

Also, an issue from 1915, I think defenders are a tiny bit overpowered, When you get those tussles for the ball in the box, the defenders pretty much always come out on top.

Too many blocked shots when really the target should be hit, I think this is in part due to attacking players in the box delaying their shots - this has improved IMO since 1916 but its still an issue.

Having had a quick look at some all AI fixtures, it still seems to be goals from crosses, corners, free-kicks and penalties, so I think this is widespread, and hopefully I'm commenting on things SI have already seen.

On a positive note, the problem of killer balls from CBs / DMs / DLPs beating the defensive line with laser-like accuracy seems to have gone, so well done on that one folks

[Lord Rowell]

1 hour ago, Bakiano said:

I dont want to sound annoying or something, but when will they release a new update?

When they have enough information to diagnose what the problems are, identify solutions, and write code to fix the problems and improve the ME. All of this is painstaking work and takes time to get it right, so have a little patience

[Spurs08]

On 23/11/2018 at 11:18, Neil Brock said:

They're hard coded to one. Similar to Liechtenstein IRL UEFA has restricted them to a limited number of slots independent of their co-efficient. If we had evidence to suggest this shouldn't be the case we could make a change. 

It's a bit of a different situation to Liechtenstein. They are permanently restricted to no CL places and only one Europa spot because they don't run a domestic league, only the cup, with their teams playing within the Swiss structure. Kosovo's situation is much more akin to Gibraltar's. The UEFA Executive Committee decided that these new members would only get two European places at first in order to reduce disruption if they had to withdraw due to e.g. failing to meet licensing requirements en masse, which is more likely with a new member. The geopolitical situations have little to do with it - in Gibraltar's case it only had issues with Spain, it was very unlikely they'd progress far enough to face Spanish clubs and even if they did it'd be trivial to keep them apart in the draw. Given that Kosovo has entered clubs with no issues whatsoever. UEFA are bound to review the situation as they did with Gibraltar (who now have no restrictions) and it seems far, far more likely than not that Kosovo will be awarded the normal number of places starting with the 2021-2022 season (barring new members they avoid changing the number of places per association within three-year cycles the rules are agreed for, and we've just started the 2018-2021 cycle).

From a gameplay perspective as well, it seems far preferable to have the number of spots unlocked. Firstly, the only reasons that they may not be unlocked in real life - licensing difficulties, corruption, heightened political tensions etc - are quite rightly things that FM does not attempt to simulate or include - within the "canon" of an FM save where these things don't happen and football is, as it should be, about bringing people together rather than dividing them, there is no reason for the restrictions to be permanently maintained. Secondly, it adds interest for those taking over the Kosovar national team as available in the default game, or those who download or create a custom file for the Kosovar league - which tend to be quite popular due to the potential to write their history almost from scratch as a new associaton. Thirdly, given Kosovo's population and interest in football, they are very likely to rise above the true minnows of San Marino, Andorra and the like to attain three Europa League spots, and it's far from unthinkable they could in the future (both real-life and in-game, especially with user management) realistically compete with leagues like Israel, Croatia and Belarus which, with good performances, could achieve a second Champions League spot too, making the spot allocation far more pertinent than it was for Gibraltar who would never be likely to escape the very bottom of the rankings were it not for their TV money bug in FM at the time.

[szp]

Is it possible to uninstall beta? 

[Mitja]

13 minutes ago, szp said:

Is it possible to uninstall beta? 

i don't think so, except maybe if you uninstall the game and opt off beta on steam. why would you return to pre-beta?

[Neil Brock]

2 hours ago, Mitja said:

i don't think so, except maybe if you uninstall the game and opt off beta on steam. why would you return to pre-beta?

Yeah you can just opt out and it'll return back to the retail version. As stated in the opening post any save game saved in the 'public beta' version won't load in the retail version until it updates to a version the same or later than that version. So essentially you'd need to wait until 19.2.0 is released to the retail version. 

[Neil Brock]

4 hours ago, Spurs08 said:

@Neil Brock Think there is an error in the changelist - I'm assuming the EPL and Championship are getting VAR in season two, not the goalline tech they've had for ages now.

Yep that was my bad - corrected. 

[Svenc]

On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 08:40, Mitja said:

- many of the above issues would be far less visible if mentality had less efect on passing directness 

Not related to FM19 specifically, still waiting for my Holidays to check it out some proper.

 

Historically, it's never been the "mentality" itself that made sides playing more direct and short. For that there were passing instructions, and Patterns tied to the mentalities. Actually, the defending Players on defensive mentalities were encouraged to clear their lines under pressure (could be tweaked somewhat). That misconception existed on Prior Releases anyway.

What the AI has Always primarily struggled with is that they don't know how to systematically set up movement that actually would support specific styles somewhat. If those Presets allow crucial Player roles/dutys to be overwritten, in my opinion they'd be failure by design. Additionally, you would Need the roles to be grouped together, so that they can be logically linked to the Presets. How formations are likely still usually approached by AI Needs a total overhaul -- they pick formations according to what the Research enters, when they should Approach them as a means to getting their desired style of Play. Possession based Systems absolutely Need Players in the centre to Control that centre, and likewise the Forwards to be involved in build up. Additionally, AI would Need sub-Presets available for iits dynamic match Management. A Manager prefering "Possession based Football" may use different tactics when seeing out a lead/Closing  a game/aggressively pushing for a Goal  than somebody who's direct from the go. 

[MBarbaric]

1 ora fa, Svenc ha scritto:

What the AI has Always primarily struggled with is that they don't know how to systematically set up movement that actually would support specific styles somewhat.

this. and it extends to human user as well (although, we are able to work around some issues). you simply can't introduce "play from the back" instruction and expect magic to work the ball out of the back. 

a team that plays from the back needs off the ball movement from all 11 players in order to play around well pressing opposition. it needs clear idea where it wants to exit their defensive third, it needs different options and off the ball movement to be able to create passing lanes. I apologize to anyone who has already seen this, but I think it is worth repeating this.

Above is a random example of a team playing from the back with two different approaches.

a) red - with an aim to play in the half space

b) blue - with an aim to play down the flank

In the red example, the key player is the winger #17 dropping deep in the half space to pick the ball and CAM #7 simultaneously moving higher up the pitch offering a passing option in more advanced position.

In blue, you see the CM #21 offering a short passing option and #7 offering central passing option while CM#5 offers security in both examples.

Now, these are only two examples of only one phase (playing out of the back). You can see that AM#7 has two distinctive behaviours depending on the side of the pitch. You will notice that RW#17 drops very deep to pick up the ball in the half space. What role/mentality/position in FM behaves like that? And again, this is only in two examples of only one phase of play. All these players have different behaviours in different phases in different zones on the pitch. 

The way FM represents roles/positions/duties is infinitely more reductive than what actually happens on the pitch. In one moment a CAM is CM, in another, he is a winger, IF... and that is only in offensive phase and without touching on rotations or the defensive phase.

There simply is no way you can get "correct" passing decisions in the game if there simply are no passing options. And there are no passing options because there is no movement. And there is no movement because how roles/positions/duties/formations work within TC. This lack of movement is equally visible in all thirds of the pitch in all offensive phases. 

one of the biggest problems with roles/duties system as we have it, is that it is too rigid. A winger will always repeat same movement pattern, CM, F9... all of them. In reality, each player has different role in different parts of pitch during different phases of the game. ME is fairly competent representing direct football which is basically what roles/duties are.

however, modern football is way too fluid to shoehorn it with current roles/duties. This is why possession oriented teams suffer. Especially now that there is specific defensive width instruction that can cover the middle completely locking down central play.

[Mitja]

1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

There simply is no way you can get "correct" passing decisions in the game if there simply are no passing options. And there are no passing options because there is no movement. And there is no movement because how roles/positions/duties/formations work within TC. This lack of movement is equally visible in all thirds of the pitch in all offensive phases. 

one of the biggest problems with roles/duties system as we have it, is that it is too rigid. A winger will always repeat same movement pattern, CM, F9... all of them. In reality, each player has different role in different parts of pitch during different phases of the game. ME is fairly competent representing direct football which is basically what roles/duties are.

there was more movement on previous FMs, maybe not perfect but much better than currently. at least wide forwards were stretching defense and strikers were dropping deep. attacking mentalities replicated one-touch pass and move football waaay better, now attacking meens long ball forward as soon as possible. now players stop after passing which is a new thing too, (if you don't tick counter-attacking) and this has limited number of one-two's. practically there are none or very little.

simple running towards ball carrier by nearest player or two and then moving into empty space by others would be a good start. otherwise i agree player movement is limited to running forwards in possession and backwards after loosing the ball, with very little variation and leteral movement.... 

[MBarbaric]

42 minuti fa, Mitja ha scritto:

there was more movement on previous FMs, maybe not perfect but much better than currently. at least wide forwards were stretching defense and strikers were dropping deep. attacking mentalities replicated one-touch pass and move football waaay better

3

indeed, but then the defensive width wasn't a thing. Now, that defence tries at least to properly cover the strong side, the attack is completely bogged down. football is all about movement precisely because the defence covers space so well in modern game. Once you have better defending in ME, you need to match it with better attacking movement. otherwise, ball gets spread wide and results with a cross blocked or a corner kick.

another thing... When I observe players in my FM 16 save, every now and again, there is a match where players won't make off the ball runs while the same players with same instructions did those runs three days before. They largely behave like FM19. Maybe, there is a link between their motivation/workrate/morale that works under the hood additionally mudding waters in FM19?

[Mitja]

i doubt the motivation etc could be the case, it would be bizare to implement something like that into football game. there's practically no movement from forwards once the ball enters final third.

[Lord Rowell]

Something I've thinking about throughout the day, and the posts recently above kind of re-inforce my thoughts.

Are we in part looking at this from the wrong end?

Sure, we want to make all of the off-the-ball movement, passing combinations and so on, better. SI might be able to fix some things in short terms, but others are probably long-term projects.

The problem seems to be that against compact, reasonably high level defences, the lack of movement in the game means they're too difficult to break down, with the ball going wide etc. We all know this. But the solution short-term, to get FM19 enjoyable may be different.

Quite simply, might it be worth SI looking at the defensive aspects of the ME and, bluntly, just make them less effective, so that forward players can find space, and passing & movement combinations can occur?

I know it might seem like a step back, but sometimes you have to take a step back before you can go forward. SI can still, in the background, then work on improving attacking movement and play for FM20, FM21 and so on.

[teodoro]

Hello there, after several matches (three seasons) I think that the ME of beta is the best ever seen to date...

It's realistic, competitive and fun. 
Thanks for your good work!

[Mitja]

29 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

The problem seems to be that against compact, reasonably high level defences, the lack of movement in the game means they're too difficult to break down, with the ball going wide etc. We all know this. But the solution short-term, to get FM19 enjoyable may be different.

Quite simply, might it be worth SI looking at the defensive aspects of the ME and, bluntly, just make them less effective, so that forward players can find space, and passing & movement combinations can occur?

 

don't want to dismiss your idea and if you ask me i'd defenetely improve both but if there's no movement up front how should/could defending be less effective? if forwards don't move they should make defenders doing, what? defenders already don't need to do much in final third since far too few balls reach forwards. they need to improve real cause not give us quick fix, like for crossing issue..or strikers not scoring. 

[pats]

5 hours ago, Lord Rowell said:

Something I've thinking about throughout the day, and the posts recently above kind of re-inforce my thoughts.

Are we in part looking at this from the wrong end?

Sure, we want to make all of the off-the-ball movement, passing combinations and so on, better. SI might be able to fix some things in short terms, but others are probably long-term projects.

The problem seems to be that against compact, reasonably high level defences, the lack of movement in the game means they're too difficult to break down, with the ball going wide etc. We all know this. But the solution short-term, to get FM19 enjoyable may be different.

Quite simply, might it be worth SI looking at the defensive aspects of the ME and, bluntly, just make them less effective, so that forward players can find space, and passing & movement combinations can occur?

I know it might seem like a step back, but sometimes you have to take a step back before you can go forward. SI can still, in the background, then work on improving attacking movement and play for FM20, FM21 and so on.

The stuff in bold is quite frankly a ridiculous idea. It's a simulation game, not an arcade. Making defending less effective would be like introducing artificial difficult level, which SI has always avoided and rightly so. And how would that make the game more balanced anyway? People will start complaining they leak too many goals and the game is broken as defending is broken. The real issue right now is lack of movement in the final third against deep sitting defenses so the defenders never really have to break their compact shape. If the attackers drag defenders deep/wide, the runners from wide and deep areas can then find a hole somewhere, just like Guardiola's side do. 

As for crossing, the AI prioritises defending central areas and fancy their chances of not conceding a goal by conceding wide areas to superior attacking teams hence the narrow defending imo. When I tried a wide tactic myself, I was able to prevent crosses to a fairly low numbers and hardly allowed any dangerous crosses.

[DavyDepuydt1]

On 22/11/2018 at 19:44, Neil Brock said:

Generally any issues for competitions and rulegroups require a new save game - however with that one I'm not 100% sure and would have to check with the comps and rulegroup team when they're next back online. 

@Neil Brock any update on this? (homegrown status in belgian league)

[Armistice]

6 hours ago, pats said:

The stuff in bold is quite frankly a ridiculous idea. It's a simulation game, not an arcade. Making defending less effective would be like introducing artificial difficult level, which SI has always avoided and rightly so. And how would that make the game more balanced anyway? People will start complaining they leak too many goals and the game is broken as defending is broken. The real issue right now is lack of movement in the final third against deep sitting defenses so the defenders never really have to break their compact shape. If the attackers drag defenders deep/wide, the runners from wide and deep areas can then find a hole somewhere, just like Guardiola's side do. 

As for crossing, the AI prioritises defending central areas and fancy their chances of not conceding a goal by conceding wide areas to superior attacking teams hence the narrow defending imo. When I tried a wide tactic myself, I was able to prevent crosses to a fairly low numbers and hardly allowed any dangerous crosses.

Spot on, but to be completely fair, I watched a few goals clips on YouTube in FM15, FM16 etc and the forwards weren’t moving much once they were near/inside the box, the difference was that the defences were leaving bigger gaps and they were less effective at marking the attacking players, and obviously there were more vertical balls/through balls played in the box by the attacking team, unlike in FM19. From my observations narrow defending affects the positioning of the forwards, they also become narrow which is not what you’d want. The effectiveness of narrow and compact defending shouldn’t be tweaked at all, because if some players want to play defensive/counter football, they’re at disadvantage, but my test saves made me believe there are some knock on effects on:

- support duties rush inside the box too often and too early, especially the AML/R and even AMC stratas (not to mention the striker). Also midfielders have a similar appetite to attack the box. So when this happens, you lack depth to create vertical gaps between the lines.

- no vertical balls near/inside the opponent box. For example, if a ball is played to a player near the edge of the box or inside of it, he could hold up the ball for instance, which could lead to dragging players out of position.

- AM strata and strikers sitting narrow, inside the opponent’s defensive line. If a winger for example was sitting outside of a fullback, he could still be a passing option and if he gets the ball, he could disrupt the defence.

 

But what exactly affects these, can’t be sure tbf, SI need to investigate the code but I am sure they do. SI must also decide (imo) if:

- crosses are done properly or if the players really dwell on the ball too much like it's been reported (I’d say they do dwell a bit too much, I’d personally want to see a wingback/fullback not rush the cross, until he attracts a player out of position. Again, defence disrupting).

- tackling seems a bit overpowered. Maybe just my opinion.

- pressing is poorly emulated, needs to be looked at, there are tons of examples posted in the bug section.

 

If SI fix these in the next patch, I will personally be happy.

[Mitja]

46 minutes ago, Armistice said:

From my observations narrow defending affects the positioning of the forwards, they also become narrow which is not what you’d want. The effectiveness of narrow and compact defending shouldn’t be tweaked at all, because if some players want to play defensive/counter football, they’re at disadvantage, but my test saves made me believe there are some knock on effects on:

but it shouldn't affect their positioning since every team in possession wants to stretch the defense and defense wants to narrow the space. if those players who are already attacking too narrow, don't make any movement from attacking positions then they are doing the defending for opposition. basic football logics is missing.

[haffaz77]

Feels like Players have no Vision whats going on in front of them . They just hammer the ball into opposition players and the result is 10+ blocked shots . 

[steff91]

Is there a way that you can "opt out" of the Beta? i personally found it worked better before it was released..

[haffaz77]

vor 48 Minuten schrieb steff91:

Is there a way that you can "opt out" of the Beta? i personally found it worked better before it was released..

Just go to Steam and deselect "public beta" it should download 19.1.5 and done

[Seb Wassell]

On 23/11/2018 at 15:36, Mitja said:

here's slightly more accurate descriptions of ''attacking'' attacking football according to Whoscored, lets see what they have in common:

Liverpool's Style of Play

• Short passes
• Possession football
• Control the game in the opposition's half
• Attack through the middle
• Non-aggressive
• Play the offside trap

• Chelsea's Style of Play

• Control the game in the opposition's half
• Possession football
• Short passes
• Attempt through balls often
• Attack through the middle
• Non-aggressive
• Consistent first eleven
• Opponents play aggressively against them

• Manchester City's Style of Play

• Possession football
• Short passes
• Control the game in the opposition's half
• Attack through the middle
• Attacking down the left
• Attempt through balls often
• Non-aggressive
• Rotate their first eleven

• Tottenham's Style of Play

• Possession football
• Short passes
• Attempt through balls often
• Attack through the middle
• Non-aggressive
• Play the offside trap

• Arsenal's Style of Play

• Possession football
• Attacking down the left
• Short passes
• Attempt through balls often

That seems incredibly inaccurate unfortunately.

[RocheBag]

6 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

That seems incredibly inaccurate unfortunately.

It's not inaccurate at all, its backed up by actual facts. If liverpool make more short passes than all but two teams in the league, people can't just say "nah that's wrong" because it doesn't fit their preconceived narrative of how liverpool play.

Differences in style are not nearly as pronounced as people think. Liverpool have no choice but to play a short passing game because teams park the bus against them. No top side can get away with playing direct against a parked bus, there simply isn't space to do it.

[Mitja]

4 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

Differences in style are not nearly as pronounced as people think. Liverpool have no choice but to play a short passing game because teams park the bus against them. No top side can get away with playing direct against a parked bus, there simply isn't space to do it.

how many people actually undestand this? and how can facts be inaccurate?

[Seb Wassell]

Passing length and directness can be separate.

[MBarbaric]

17 minuti fa, Seb Wassell ha scritto:

That seems incredibly inaccurate unfortunately.

Could you be a bit more constructive here? I am really interested to hear what exactly is inaccurate from SI's perspective. 

As far as I am aware, these summaries are made by a program code that goes through stats and singles out things that stand out. Stats or summaries might be off to an extent and I went to check Liverpool and Arsenal. While Arsenal is spot on, Liverpool appears to be "wrongly" associated with attacking through the middle. However, depending on the source for the stats, it might be true ( i.e. if the source considers the middle corridor to be wider than my source).

Overall, I'd be surprised if it was really wrong. 

[Seb Wassell]

1 minute ago, MBarbaric said:

Could you be a bit more constructive here? I am really interested to hear what exactly is inaccurate from SI's perspective. 

As far as I am aware, these summaries are made by a program code that goes through stats and singles out things that stand out. Stats or summaries might be off to an extent and I went to check Liverpool and Arsenal. While Arsenal is spot on, Liverpool appears to be "wrongly" associated with attacking through the middle. However, depending on the source for the stats, it might be true ( i.e. if the source considers the middle corridor to be wider than my source).

Overall, I'd be surprised if it was really wrong. 

Not speaking from SI's perspective, but my own opinion on how those stats are gathered.

A bit like expected goals, they aren't really robust enough to use as "facts" for me yet.

[Mitja]

26 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

That seems incredibly inaccurate unfortunately.

you took that post completely out of context, where we were discussing mentality and possession. the accuracy of the above styles is not even that important.