QF4: England vs France, 7PM GMT, Al Bayt Stadium

[Darren Moores Mum]

4 minutes ago, Jeroen Thijssen said:

Can't complain that much. At least get your quote right.

First goal simply nothing wrong with that. First penalty, while it was one - often doesn't get given So you can't complain much.

Second one was a silly barge, so fine there. From one angle that actually didn't look bad either.  

You've just made up that it often doesn't get given, haven't you? Absolutely no way that "often doesn't get given" FFS.

 

[Jeroen Thijssen]

Just now, ginnybob said:

You've just made up that it often doesn't get given, haven't you? Absolutely no way that "often doesn't get given" FFS.

 

Well OK, fine. Then it does. I wouldn't have given it, definitely not initially. 

[Smallen]

 

Saying you wouldn't have given this says a lot about your judgement

[ArsenalFan7]

And people wonder why Arsenal fans get annoyed about the treatment Saka gets dished out by referees. Guy is brilliant and doesn’t get his rewards.

This is why you have players like Zaha lashing out because the full backs only defence is kicking them.

[Baptista_8]

Was that Upamecano giving away the pen as well? I've lost count of how many yellows he should have had last night. Absolute donkey and if that was him, that should have been his second yellow at least.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

4 minutes ago, Smallen said:

 

Saying you wouldn't have given this says a lot about your judgement

That's not the one I'm talking about. I mean the one where Kane wins a penalty on the edge of the box. (The first one that was given)

[Smallen]

Just now, Baptista_8 said:

Was that Upamecano giving away the pen as well? I've lost count of how many yellows he should have had last night. Absolute donkey and if that was him, that should have been his second yellow at least.

Was Tchouaméni

[Baptista_8]

Just now, Smallen said:

Was Tchouaméni

Thanks.

Still should have had two yellows first half for the fouls on Saka and Kane.

[Constantine]

All this banter aside, anyone heard from Rob? 30 pages and can't remember I've seen him post since page 1.

He's like that overly optimistic anime character but I can't help it but feel and cheer for the guy, despite him annoying me a little with some of his opinions on Gareth...

[outlander]

Also, when considering who played better and who deserved the win, you cannot ignore the score situation. 

If the score was 0-0 for most of the match and then France scored a winner in the end, you could say that were lucky and Englayed deserved the win. 

But when France was leading for most of the match, of course they are going to play more defensively. 

 

Yet, both time the score was equal, it was France who scored the goal to lead. It's very harsh to say, they deserved to lose. Draw could sound like a fair result but surely England didn't do enough to say they deserved to win.

Edited December 11, 2022 by outlander

[Toffle]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

If VAR hadn’t pulled him over to watch it he wouldn’t have given it, he didn’t decide to use VAR.

Luckily, that's how VAR works, it pulls refs over and help them make better decisions. They gave the penalty, no debate.

[Weezer]

Just now, Toffle said:

Luckily, that's how VAR works, it pulls refs over and help them make better decisions. They gave the penalty, no debate.

The debate is that the referee was awful and 'missed' blatant penalties for England.

[skybluedave]

5 minutes ago, Constantine said:

All this banter aside, anyone heard from Rob? 30 pages and can't remember I've seen him post since page 1.

He's like that overly optimistic anime character but I can't help it but feel and cheer for the guy, despite him annoying me a little with some of his opinions on Gareth...

Rob plays up to it massively. I don't know how people still keep falling for it. He's been doing it for years

[caragreg]

Lloris is still the weak point of the French team? 

It's a legend just like Deschamps, Lloris, Varane, Giroud, Griezmann..

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, caragreg said:

Lloris is still the weak point of the French team? 

It's a legend just like Deschamps, Lloris, Varane, Giroud, Griezmann..

He stepped up last night, diving save for Kane's chance early on, but other than that, he saved everything any decent keeper should save.

Maignan has been a class above him this entire year and would be a big upgrade to current Lloris.

3 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Rob plays up to it massively. I don't know how people still keep falling for it. He's been doing it for years

One of those people who just disappears when his favorite team/player/coach doesn't deliver

[Baptista_8]

Unfortunately Southgate is not a natural winner.

Selecting favourites over players who can actually change games is weak management. And in the end it always costs us.

As for how he's 'changed the culture' - fair enough, he's probably done some work on that, but this is a much nicer group of players to work with than what we've had in the past anyway.

Someone said elsewhere, missing a penalty in a crucial game (Southgate in 96), it happens, but to make an advert making light of it? Is that a winner?

[pearcey_90]

38 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

I'm not sold on Foden in the middle yet. Can he press like a centre midfielder? Would like to see him there more for Man City first. He's basically a winger/forward now at club level. You are also newting Bellingham by moving him further back. 

Him not playing there for Man City, shouldn't stop us playing him there.

Man City have B.Silva/KDB currently there.

Midfield 3 yesterday was fine, but we need the option of other things being available. Currently we've only got 5 CMs that seem to be trusted. Mount/Hendo/Bellingham for further 2, Phillips/Rice for deeper role. 

[noikeee]

Netherlands go out complaining about a pro Argentine ref, Portugal go out with the players complaining the ref was pro Morocco to help Argentina, and England go out complaining about a pro French ref in the same match they get two pens.

Perhaps we're all more similar than we like to think... How about looking at how all three teams underperformed to various degrees, hey?

[ajw10]

People blaming Southgate for last night are genuinely ridiculous. 

We lost against a very good side. It's a game of fine margins and a usually reliable penalty taker smashes one over the bar. There's not much more to it than that.

Only issue was subbing off Saka, but it looks like half the thread wanted him off anyway  

[Pukey]

5 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

People blaming Southgate for last night are genuinely ridiculous. 

We lost against a very good side. It's a game of fine margins and a usually reliable penalty taker smashes one over the bar. There's not much more to it than that.

Only issue was subbing off Saka, but it looks like half the thread wanted him off anyway  

I think there's definitely room for a general discussion about Southgate and his overall management and whether he's the best man to keep going, but yeah last night I'm not massively upset with him at all. Are there other changes he could have made, could have made changes earlier, should he have taken Saka off? Maybe to all those, but we've seen England play so badly in these kinds of games and really go into their shell, look at Croatia 2018 and Italy last year, and this wasn't that in the slightest. As you say, this was a game of fine margins and we came out on the wrong side unfortunately. 

[skybluedave]

7 minutes ago, pearcey_90 said:

Him not playing there for Man City, shouldn't stop us playing him there.

Man City have B.Silva/KDB currently there.

Midfield 3 yesterday was fine, but we need the option of other things being available. Currently we've only got 5 CMs that seem to be trusted. Mount/Hendo/Bellingham for further 2, Phillips/Rice for deeper role. 

I agree. I'm not wedded to to having to play players where they play for their clubs. We should just build the best side we can. I'd defo like to see Foden play centrally more and see how it goes but I'm just not convinced it will suddenly fix us. The off ball work you have to do in midfield is very important. Like I don't really rate Mount but in games you can see he knows how to press centrally and keep shape. I have question marks over Foden in that regard

[ArsenalFan7]

17 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

People blaming Southgate for last night are genuinely ridiculous. 

We lost against a very good side. It's a game of fine margins and a usually reliable penalty taker smashes one over the bar. There's not much more to it than that.

Only issue was subbing off Saka, but it looks like half the thread wanted him off anyway  

Haven’t read through but Saka was probably England’s best player after a bit of a rough start.

Never been a Southgate fan but have no real issue with how we set up, we played well and lost to a good team with some decisions and key moments swinging against us, fine margins tend to decide these sort of games. It’s not a game where I’d actively point to some of his errors like I would Croatia or Italy.

I did think the winner goes on to win the WC and this was very much a 50/50 occasion in my eyes.

[Mr Adam]

I love Saka. Just think Foden is better than him. Based on my “intangible” opinion. 
 

They’d 100% both start in my England side. But at 4-3-3 Saka would start ahead of Foden.

My personal best “attacking 5” of the plausible players from yesterday would have been: Rice, Bellingham ; Saka, Foden, Grealish ; Kane

With Rashford able to come off bench when game gets stretched 

[Lermon]

what was the excuse England didn't beat USA? Was that because of the ref too?

[ajw10]

16 minutes ago, Lermon said:

what was the excuse England didn't beat USA? Was that because of the ref too?

They didn't play well and most importantly, they didn't need to win the game.

Bizarre post

[RTHerringbone]

In spite of all the really weak trolling attempts in here, we're actually in a decent spot.

Henderson had a good tournament but at 32 he's not realistically going to be a starter at future tournaments. I'd like us to look longer term and consider going with Rice, Bellingham and Foden centrally, with Rashford and Saka wide.

It's par for the course for people to slate Maguire but he's had a solid tournament. We do seem to have some options with Tomori, Guehi, White so hopefully they'll get more minutes for England. I think we're fine at fullback. Walker and Trippier are getting on but James and TAA are good enough and young enough. On the left Shaw and Chilwell are fine. Not sure who logically steps up to replace Pickford and Kane in the longer term but we aren't far off at all.

So a few changes in personnel and a more proactive bit of in-game management and we'll be fine for the next World Cup.

[Confused Clarity]

11 minutes ago, RTHerringbone said:

In spite of all the really weak trolling attempts in here, we're actually in a decent spot.

Henderson had a good tournament but at 32 he's not realistically going to be a starter at future tournaments. I'd like us to look longer term and consider going with Rice, Bellingham and Foden centrally, with Rashford and Saka wide.

It's par for the course for people to slate Maguire but he's had a solid tournament. We do seem to have some options with Tomori, Guehi, White so hopefully they'll get more minutes for England. I think we're fine at fullback. Walker and Trippier are getting on but James and TAA are good enough and young enough. On the left Shaw and Chilwell are fine. Not sure who logically steps up to replace Pickford and Kane in the longer term but we aren't far off at all.

So a few changes in personnel and a more proactive bit of in-game management and we'll be fine for the next World Cup.

What do you consider trolling attempts?

 

[error username in use]

Feel sorry for whatever club ends up lumbered with Southgate as a manager 

barely gets a group of talented players to make football fun to watch

let alone a bunch of mercenaries looking for their next pay cheque every weekend

[TM]

considering this has turned into a "England future" thread, what's the thoughts of using TAA as a midfielder? if it would ever happen which I doubt as he doesn't play there for Liverpool and it would be a big risk, although in qualifying you could at least try it in games against lesser nations to see how it worked

would say he has the best passing of that potential England midfield, he'll create chances which means Kane doesn't have to so he can go upfront and do what he's good at, although it might result in others having different roles - Bellingham or Saka maybe which might negate their effectiveness

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, TM said:

considering this has turned into a "England future" thread, what's the thoughts of using TAA as a midfielder?

Can James actually play as a RCB in 3 man defense or Tuchel was just covering because of injuries?

Since England has no actual midfield playmaker of top class coming up (unless I'm missing someone), TAA simply has to be utilized.

TAA as a playmaker on the right, Foden on the left. TAA is just too good not to be used at all.

3-4-3 of sorts where James can also push up with a midfielder covering.

 

[cyclonus1010]

2 hours ago, _mxrky said:

Then he actually has to learn how to play as a midfielder. 

Has to play further forward than just a midfielder. Has to be between midfield and any central striker.

[Rob1981]

3 hours ago, Constantine said:

All this banter aside, anyone heard from Rob?

Haha. Been out all day so I haven’t read the whole thread yet. But I don’t know how anyone can watch that and think that somehow Sean Dyche is the answer.

Probably the two best teams left in the competition and we’ve gone toe to toe for 90 minutes. A shame either of us had to go out at QF stage because it was a game worthy of a semi final or a final.

On another day Kane scores the penalty or Harry Maguire’s header goes three inches the other side of the post, or Rashford’s last minute free kick finds the target, or Shaw puts a better ball into the box with those crosses near the end. Or Griezmann’s ball has slightly too much on it and France don’t score their second. You play that game ten times and we probably win five each.

I was ready for Southgate to fall on his sword if we got embarrassed or out-thought or outplayed. But you can’t blame him for much there. We weren’t so timid we switched to five at the back and sat deep in midfield. We didn’t lose because he refused to drop Sterling and get Foden into the starting eleven, or because we didn’t go for the throat at 1-1, or because we kept faith with Maguire and a suspect defence couldn’t cope with Mbappe.

We gave it a right go. We came close. But at this level you can play your best games and still go out. The margins at this stage of the tournament are vanishingly small, this is why we love international football after all.

Maybe he leaves Saka on, but Saka had run himself ragged for more than three quarters of the game. And if Rashford and Grealish and Sterling never get off the bench then people are asking why he hasn’t used more fresh legs when we can make five subs.

I actually think he might call it a day though. We’ve talked to death about the spirit in the camp and the club culture stuff. Very easy to keep the momentum going when you keep breaking new ground and getting to semi finals and finals for the first time. But going into a third or fourth tournament with mostly the same players, and after a big disappointment to boot. I don’t know if the hunger and desire and enthusiasm stays at the same level without something different.

He’ll spend some time talking it through with senior players as well as the FA bigwigs would be my guess. But yeah, if he goes... it’s because the group as whole will benefit from some fresh energy. Not because the FA have a ready made super tactician waiting in the wings.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Rob1981

[Mr Adam]

24 minutes ago, Confused Clarity said:

What do you consider trolling attempts?

 

There are very clearly some. Not you fwiw, you’re offering detailed opinion rather than trying to get a rise 

 

edit - not going to name or call any out as it will just prolong it and encourage it further 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Mr Adam

[cyclonus1010]

8 minutes ago, TM said:

TAA as a midfielder? if it would ever happen which I doubt as he doesn't play there for Liverpool

Well, Trent is down as a right back on any team sheet but he spends most of his time in midfield areas, whether wide or just inside.

When he produces the goods in attack, him being further forward isn't a big problem.

When he doesn't, all he does is find himself too far up the pitch, leaving acres of space for teams to attack. It's a weakness that every team should know about.

It's something that you have to accept with him in the team. 

[Confused Clarity]

3 minutes ago, Mr Adam said:

There are very clearly some. Not you fwiw, you’re offering detailed opinion rather than trying to get a rise 

The thing is, most of the dissent is coming from people who don't have English as a first language. So I think a lot of it can be closer to that than anything else. Maybe some are being a but antagonistic with it, but I don't think theres been proper trolling. Not in the way we get for Premier league match threads.

[RTHerringbone]

24 minutes ago, Confused Clarity said:

What do you consider trolling attempts?

 

4 minutes ago, Mr Adam said:

There are very clearly some. Not you fwiw, you’re offering detailed opinion rather than trying to get a rise 

Yeah, this.

I get that it's the done thing but in this case it feels like it's largely pointless. I've always felt that there's a false representation that English football fans have this sense of entitlement with football and that we expect to win. It's so far from the truth that it just isn't even worth going down that route. So when we've had a decent tournament and have been eliminated by a really fine margin, that's why nonsense like "What was the issue when you lost to the US? The ref?" is just pointless frivolity.

[Mr Adam]

1 minute ago, Confused Clarity said:

The thing is, most of the dissent is coming from people who don't have English as a first language. So I think a lot of it can be closer to that than anything else. Maybe some are being a but antagonistic with it, but I don't think theres been proper trolling. Not in the way we get for Premier league match threads.

Yeh to be fair I wouldn’t necessarily have defined it as trolling. More deliberate provoking

[TM]

9 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I actually think he might call it a day though. We’ve talked to death about the spirit in the camp and the club culture stuff. Very easy to keep the momentum going when you keep breaking new ground and getting to semi finals and finals for the first time. But going into a third or fourth tournament with mostly the same players, and after a big disappointment to boot. I don’t know if the hunger and desire and enthusiasm stays at the same level without something different.

He’ll spend some time talking it through with senior players as well as the FA bigwigs would be my guess. But yeah, if he goes... it’s because the group as whole will benefit from some fresh energy. Not because the FA have a ready made super tactician waiting in the wings.

I'd probably agree with this, normal for a manager to take time to think things over but unless he can get England to the place of winning tournaments, he's always going to have people who say they won't win major titles with him in charge because he's not attacking/negative

maybe he might think it's time to let someone else have a go, he's done more for an England team in the last 6 years than some have done in the last 20 in major competitions.  Would leave them in a good place if he decides to go, England definitely have the players to win Germany 2024 in my opinion

[_mxrky]

Too many prople rate the idea of players on here rather than what they actually do

Edited December 11, 2022 by _mxrky

[Weezer]

England fans can’t complain about a game or be disappointed not to win without being entitled, fairly standard response.

I’m not sure there is a more self-deprecating group of fans in international football, other than maybe the Scots, than us but too many fall into the trap of believing “It’s Coming Home” is being used unironically. 

[ArsenalFan7]

1 hour ago, Mr Adam said:

I love Saka. Just think Foden is better than him. Based on my “intangible” opinion. 
 

They’d 100% both start in my England side. But at 4-3-3 Saka would start ahead of Foden.

My personal best “attacking 5” of the plausible players from yesterday would have been: Rice, Bellingham ; Saka, Foden, Grealish ; Kane

With Rashford able to come off bench when game gets stretched 

Foden is England’s most talented player, the side should really be built him and/or Bellingham. I do think another manager can probably maximise Foden better.

And fwiw I’ll never really understand the argument that a player as ridiculously talented as Foden couldn’t play through the centre for this England side. I would love to see him pulling the strings all over like Griezmann has been for France and negating a mediocre option like Henderson.

[EnterUsernameHere]

1 minute ago, Weezer said:

England fans can’t complain about a game or be disappointed not to win without being entitled, fairly standard response.

I’m not sure there is a more self-deprecating group of fans in international football, other than maybe the Scots, than us but too many fall into the trap of believing “It’s Coming Home” is being used unironically. 

Yeah I actually think England fans don't expect enough from their team. 

He wasn't at fault really last night, but you've been very similar to the United fans who thought Ole deserved more time and that no one else could do better. You're chucking away a great group of players by being happy with semi finals, runners up places etc. Not exactly entitled...but still baffling to me.

[Mr Adam]

1 minute ago, ArsenalFan7 said:

Foden is England’s most talented player, the side should really be built him and/or Bellingham. I do think another manager can probably maximise Foden better.

And fwiw I’ll never really understand the argument that a player as ridiculously talented as Foden couldn’t play through the centre for this England side. I would love to see him pulling the strings all over like Griezmann has been for France and negating a mediocre option like Henderson.

Exactly this. Foden for me should be on the top of a midfield 3.

I wonder if Southgate’s desire to drop Kane deep meant that there was no space for Foden there, so had to put him wide. And when people clamoured for Foden they actually may have been clamouring for a change in style without knowing it. Not Foden shoehorned into a role that didn’t suit him 

[Weezer]

I don’t even call myself an England fan either fwiw. I love the World Cup, and to a lesser extent the Euros (until UEFA ruined it by qualifying half the continent), but the rest of international football can get in the bin. Haven’t watched a friendly, qualifier or Nations League game for years and have no interest in it.

But even I get annoyed that England fans are held to a different standard sometimes than other nations.

[Weezer]

5 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Yeah I actually think England fans don't expect enough from their team. 

He wasn't at fault really last night, but you've been very similar to the United fans who thought Ole deserved more time and that no one else could do better. You're chucking away a great group of players by being happy with semi finals, runners up places etc. Not exactly entitled...but still baffling to me.

I’m no Southgate fan but then I’m also one of those that thinks in a World Cup scenario the manager doesn’t actually matter that much. It’s far more about the players and having a lot of luck. A manager can make small differences here or there but Southgate didn’t lose that match for us last night any more than Deschamps won it for France. Our previous ‘golden generations’ would never have won a major tournament no matter who the manager was, they just didn’t have the mentality for it, nor the luck when it mattered.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Weezer

[SC00P0NE]

I wouldn't call english fans entitled, rather slightly too enthusiastically optimistic at times as soon as things mildly go their way, or like when some new english prospect can run 5 meters in straight line without falling, people tend to get carried away.. But then again, internationally, we usually speak english, so naturally the english team gets more attention from the outside rather than let's say what french fans think about their team, that remains hidden behind the language barrier.. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by SC00P0NE

[Mr Adam]

9 minutes ago, SC00P0NE said:

I wouldn't call english fans entitled, rather slightly too enthusiastically optimistic at times as soon as things mildly go their way, or like when some new english prospect can run 5 meters in straight line without falling, people tend to get carried away.. But then again, internationally, we usually speak english, so naturally the english team gets more attention from the outside rather than let's say what french fans think about their team, that remains hidden behind the language barrier.. 

see this is the thing. It’s a misconception. We really don’t get carried away. The “it’s coming home” is used ironically and is no more a “chant” than “Alez Les blues” for example (even if a different meaning)

[XuluBak]

3 hours ago, Weezer said:

The debate is that the referee was awful and 'missed' blatant penalties for England.

Except, he didn't. He let a lot go, both ways. Kane foul wasn't a pen, it just wasn't. He gave the Saka one without hesitation. He gave the Mount one, with a yellow, on review. 

On the last one, I don't think him not giving it live was bad, I think it was sensible refereeing with VAR in place. Mount has absolutely no play on the ball, Theo makes contact, but how much? Players go down easy, trying to buy a pen in that situation all the time. Live, from the ref's perspective, better to not give it and let VAR do their job. If he gives it, and it's soft, VAR can't do much because there WAS contact. If he doesn't give it, then VAR can look at different angles and tell him to have a look. EXACTLY what happen. That's how VAR is supposed to work.

[XuluBak]

1 hour ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Yeah I actually think England fans don't expect enough from their team. 

Absolutely this. Not sure what people are talking, suggesting English fans are entitled. If I were an English fan I'd be pissed about how negative Southgate has been with the talent he has at his disposal.

For as well as England played yesterday, how many chances did they actually create? Now, how many did they create from open play? 

Edited December 11, 2022 by XuluBak

[Pukey]

1 minute ago, XuluBak said:

Absolutely this. Not sure what people are talking, suggesting English fans are entitled. If I were an English fan I'd be pissed about how negative Southgate has been with the talent he has at his disposal.

For as England played yesterday, how many chances did they actually create? Now, how many did they create from open play? 

About as many as France tbf, ie not many.