Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community

Recommended Posts

20 hours ago, Andros said:

I would personally love future versions to have a way of explaining to me how I lost (or won!).  A way of me understanding my tactical choices better and how the opposition's choices affected my tactics and the result.  This alone would radically change the game for me and make it more enjoyable.  I am not good enough at the game to notice ME flaws as I just assume everything is my fault! ;)

I think really you need to know more about football and that's the issue. Its not for SI / FM to teach us this, and I'd be concerned your suggestion would make the game too easy.

I don't play OOTP Baseball, or the SI Ice Hockey game (sorry can't remember the title) because I understand they are detailed simulations and frankly I know nothing about those sports.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 14/08/2019 at 11:21, RBKalle said:

I've heard rumours about even more in-depth training modules... Please god, make it be false... :seagull:

Seriously, I'm not holding my breath... We'll get some new features, interesting on paper but sadly half-baked and/or poorly implemented.

We all know what the priority should be... better AI for transfers and squad building. No more top-EPL players available on Free Transfer in the first/second summer transfer window, with no takers at all.
No more "let's splash 50M on a deeply flawed newgen with high PA or Rep while ignoring the league's topscorer because he plays for Bournemouth and has 140PA".

How long can the game rely on an ancient concept like the CA+PA+Reputation trifecta?

I really don't think AI squad building is so bad, its come a long way since FM11, where I recall a long-term save I had, my competition was woeful.

In FM17 I went up to about 2043 and had good competition from the top sides.

In FM19, I'm in 2027 with my Sunderland side. We're just about a regular Champions League team now and the top teams are excellent. I'm confident the longer I go on, I will continue to be challenged.

There are flaws. I got Phil Foden on a Bosman and recently sold him for £59m :D . Ditto Rodri signing from Atletico Madrid. That said, such thing happen IRL as well. I think the AI makes a few more mistakes but its not a big deal.

Edited by Lord Rowell
Corrected 2017 to 2027

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One prediction I'll confidently make for a future FM is "expected goals". SI do their best to mirror whats in the real world game metrics and this is established now. The issue will be getting it right, and obviously only SI know how close they are to that right now and if its viable for FM20.

A lot is being written about the graphics. I'm going to go against this tide. FM is a detailed, tactical, financial, managerial football simulation. It isn't FIFA or PES. I don't want SI to plough resources into graphics at that level. I don't particularly want to watch training either. I'd like to see some tweaks but they'll vary from person to person so I won't elaborate here. I want SI to focus on the ME, incremental improvements across the board, and some other things I haven't thought of i.e. be innovative :D and I think they're doing these things anyway.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lord Rowell said:

I think really you need to know more about football and that's the issue. Its not for SI / FM to teach us this, and I'd be concerned your suggestion would make the game too easy.

I don't play OOTP Baseball, or the SI Ice Hockey game (sorry can't remember the title) because I understand they are detailed simulations and frankly I know nothing about those sports.

You are probably right in me needing a better understanding of football, and I do see the concern of making the game too easy for some.

 

However, I have seen enough threads in these forums of people being confused as to why they are failing and understanding the ramifications of their decisions to suggest that some further in-game guidance could be warranted.  Does SI want the game to be applicable to only those that are football experts or to the general public?  Finding a balance is not easy, however I wonder if some people get turned off from the game due to frustration of not knowing what is happening.  

 

I have seen some movement in the game towards tactical help, such as providing frameworks for tiki taka, gegenpressing etc.  There is also assistant manager advice (which many on the forums tell us to ignore) so it seems that SI are trying to help.  However, it can be difficult to watch the game and analyse what is happening.  Perhaps just having more useful assistant manager advice would be enough, I don't know, but something could be beneficial.   Or a guide perhaps.

 

I certainly don't want the game to be ruined for those that are knowledgeable and/or want the challenge, but some need help too.  Like I said before, it is finding that balance somehow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There can't ever be some kind of feature in the game that comes under "Why did I lose this game?" because while FM could re-run the match a thousand times to find you a tactic that would've worked against the opponents, there shouldn't be that sureness. 

The game needs to (and is improving upon) the in-game guidance. The new tactical approach shows how effective basic formations have always been in FM. In prior iterations the game has very much come under "here's what seems to be going wrong" with reflecting on how easy the opposition is controlling midfield etc. 

It's getting better with the suggestions of what formations fit your team, but what should happen in theory and what actually happens can be two very different things once an opposing team are factored in.

- - - - -

I feel like a meeting with your assistant manager of "How do you want to play? How do you want to defend? Where do you want overloads to form or do you want it more rigid?" etc could be a good way to guide players towards a formation that works but then you're still very much at the mercy of the AI powering your assistant manager who isn't infallible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, santy001 said:

 

I feel like a meeting with your assistant manager of "How do you want to play? How do you want to defend? Where do you want overloads to form or do you want it more rigid?" etc could be a good way to guide players towards a formation that works but then you're still very much at the mercy of the AI powering your assistant manager who isn't infallible. 

Interesting idea.  

 

What could also help is if the team is failing to achieve "how you want to play" in a particular game, that there is some help to determine why.  For example: if I want to control the ball with a slow patient build up, keeping the ball on the left to hopefully release somebody on the right, and it is failing in one game, the assistant manager can offer some help as to why.  If the opposition are closing down a particular player causing them to lose the ball a lot, or the mentality of the opposition makes my choice of mentality not able to achieve what I want, or there needs to be an increase or decrease in tempo, the advice can help us to look at that.

 

This could help somebody work out why the tactic is not doing what they want and therefore be in more control of their tactic.  Whilst this wont guarantee them a win, it could help them understand the game better, which may encourage them to create their own tactics more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15/08/2019 at 01:09, RBKalle said:

I wouldn't expect a revolution... The current ME isn't old enough for SEGA/SI to introduce a new one (although it'd be a good idea).

IMO it's not *that* bad once you've learnt to live with its many quirks. This year it's the forwards' lack of movement and initiative. They get beaten by both opponents and teammates for the ball inside the box... Especially when playing with the lone striker, he'll score little, while wingers and CMs will reach double-digits with ease.

My main problem with the forwards is if they get in a one on one with the keeper, they seem to kick it straight at him instead of trying to run around him, slip it past him or lob it over

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If things aren't going to plan in a match, change the viewing mode to full match for 5-10 minutes. It's usually fairly obvious what the issues are when you're watching all of the transitions take place. 

Edited by DementedHammer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 21:47, YUK0N said:

i was born in 1965 and playing PONG at 5 this isn't a pissing contest I was exaggerating on purpose. So instead of arguing  with you Im done with the post Ive seen twice as much gaming in my time to know when something is in trouble. Especially when people wait for the price comedown to even buy the game now and then wish they hadn't because of the let down. This game is in trouble. The players know it at least some, I know it and the SI knows it and if they don't then its really in trouble cause if you get a few more just patched versions it's  gonna be done. Its My Prediction that I truly would hate to see. Im done responding to this and I really hope SI take note, Better yet I'm praying they already have long ago and that's what the wait is for.

How exactly are you measuring this then?

Year on year the sales/streams get bigger and bigger as SI are justifiably proud of and share on Twitter and other social media.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, oblongata21 said:

My main problem with the forwards is if they get in a one on one with the keeper, they seem to kick it straight at him instead of trying to run around him, slip it past him or lob it over

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15/08/2019 at 17:29, Neil Brock said:

Also just to clarify, the game doesn't use CA+PA+Reputation. It actually uses Estimated CA+PPA+Rep+Form+Performance. Also tied into the squad needs of course. 

'Age' as well I think, Neil. :thup:

Edited by talhak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hopefully more data gets included in Spanish lower league. Like tournament of Copa catalunya. Also some inaccurate data was found last year. Andorra FC is partly owned by Pique, Sabadell has owner in Esteve Calzada. Real life team getting banned such as Reus for example for not paying player wages. Loaning limited amount of money would be great feature. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 14/08/2019 at 21:55, Andros said:

I would personally love future versions to have a way of explaining to me how I lost (or won!).  A way of me understanding my tactical choices better and how the opposition's choices affected my tactics and the result.  This alone would radically change the game for me and make it more enjoyable.  I am not good enough at the game to notice ME flaws as I just assume everything is my fault! ;)

I second this !!! more in depth anylisis maybe more media esp around transfer deadline day ! its always hectic and exciting. Your idea about knowing more why your tactics didn't work sounds dam amazing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

"our crosses are not connecting" in a tactic that should NOT even lead to crosses to begin with because our forwards are 5"6 and we'd be playing a narrow 4-2-3-1... But for some reasons, and in spite of all the "logical" instructions and basic formation/style, fullbacks and midfielders (or even strikers!) keep on blasting crosses as if there were Koller and Crouch up front.

You do realise that not all crosses are floated, and not all crosses are targeted towards giants, right? If you've got strikers who are quick (or at least have good attacking moment) but aren't very tall, you can set up your team's crossing instructions so that your wide players primarily send in 'Low Crosses'.

Also, can you name a single team that plays exclusively in the middle of the park and NEVER crosses the ball? Crossing is part and parcel of football.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RBKalle said:

Sorry, but this is questionable speculation at best (and condescending BS at worst).

IF the ME wasn't as quirky as it is, that'd be a decent counterargument to the "I want to know why we lost" request. But I'd like you to remember FM is currently the game that give us gems like:

"we are being seriously overrun in midfield" even while we're actually leading by 3-4 goals AND the choice to play "shorthanded" in midfield is a conscious one dictated by the very tactic that has given us a comfortable lead.

or

"we're struggling for possession in the final third"... Where it's either our plan (direct attacking football) or it's because players still take moronic long shots all the time despite being instructed to play shot and patiently.

or

"our crosses are not connecting" in a tactic that should NOT even lead to crosses to begin with because our forwards are 5"6 and we'd be playing a narrow 4-2-3-1... But for some reasons, and in spite of all the "logical" instructions and basic formation/style, fullbacks and midfielders (or even strikers!) keep on blasting crosses as if there were Koller and Crouch up front.

The list goes on...

It's been shown time and again how FM lingo doesn't really mean what the equivalent word means in real life. Many users have been making silly mistakes because the ME has its own peculiar interpretation of roles, positions, duties, instructions... The TC Wizard was a helping hand, but it's still a far cry from being really plug-and-play, especially when you try to play "against" the foundations of the match engine.
Some styles work fine and are decent approximations of the real deal. Other tactics and styles simply don't work or aren't worth the fuss required to get them to sort of exist.

 

So yeah, while FM's match engine is "something else", SI should definitely provide much better feedback. Not "why did we lose" perhaps, but "here's where your team struggled".

Then again, as long as we have stuff like players taking long shots despite all sorts of instructions AND available choices, as long the "green circles" are more cosmetic than useful, as long as it feels like we're playing the Match Engine and not playing a game of football, it's all for naught....

An excelllent and accurate post

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Imagine all this starting because Miles decided to put out a post in response to all the people tweeting him...

It's a bit like before the start of the football season everyone having hopes and dreams, only to be dashed by November

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

It's a bit like before the start of the football season everyone having hopes and dreams, only to be dashed by November

People speculate far too much, which is fine, but far too many treat their speculation as concrete facts. Hell even when we get actual news, people come up with mad theories. The only person on this thread who actually knows anything is Neil and he won't be telling :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 16/08/2019 at 00:14, Lord Rowell said:

I think really you need to know more about football and that's the issue. Its not for SI / FM to teach us this, and I'd be concerned your suggestion would make the game too easy.

At the same time, the game isn't coded for anybody particularly deeply "Interested" in tactics and performance Analysis (tricky Thing in a low scoring Sports as this), as SI seam to tread the game as a learning Simulation. E.g. providing you with some Tools, and it's up to you to discover their usage. And if you do -- and we're talking pretty basic Things a lot of the time -- you have a big edge over any AI in the game, from Bottom to top. An Edge unheard of in competitive Sports. Naturally, that's not how Things work in the Environment SI are simulating. Managers don't get a Job if they struggle with Basics; let alone at making decisions at a semi/professional club. I think the latter is an important General point to make regardless of any ME issues interfering, so hear me out. 

If Andros would apply to a real club and ever struggled with basic things, they'd push him out the door at the Job interview. Yet, that is the Fantasy he suscribes to when he buys the game. That HE gets to be an actual Manager, not a wannabe who has to figure it all out starting page 1. The frustration is understandable. Personally, also in parts for the sake of "realism", I'd prefer it if the game a) would Limit each competing Manager to making "sensible" decisions, which would Benefit the AI also. And b) introduce optional intelligent assistants to help anybody out who struggles with such or simply ain't all that invested. Such assistants aren't unheard of, be it for Performance Analysis, or else, and Right at the top sometimes reshaped/ developed the entire playing style of a club (ten Cate under Rijkaard, who admitted to tactical apathy). Assistants are AI... Performance analysis would only ever work btw, if the aforementioned "Pre-sets" were ever made a fundamental part of the game wholesale. A "counter attacking" side is Looking at something completely different than a "Possession based one", and Dyche's intentionally Deep-Blocking Burnley from 2017/2018 would send his assistant to hell if he was suggesting he'd struggle based on the huge amount of Opposition shots. A step too, that yet hasn't happened.

That's not one for FM 20, if ever, as that's basically a call for a paradigm shift wholesale: Football sim or basic learning course?  PS: Limiting the "scope" of Micro tweaks and General decisions may also have the side-effect of making the ME and AI more robust. In particular over the Long-term. Easier to balance a game around a wider scope of decisions / "realistic"  tactical concepts and isolate its  issues than one where every competing Manager gets to apply a Million possible combinations -- even fairly "nonsensical" ones you'd never see on a footie pitch both from AI as well as Players -- btw take a closer look at your download community, SI. :D

 

 

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 ora fa, CFuller ha scritto:

You do realise that not all crosses are floated, and not all crosses are targeted towards giants, right? If you've got strikers who are quick (or at least have good attacking moment) but aren't very tall, you can set up your team's crossing instructions so that your wide players primarily send in 'Low Crosses'.

Also, can you name a single team that plays exclusively in the middle of the park and NEVER crosses the ball? Crossing is part and parcel of football.

Of course I know there are low crosses too...

Actually, it's one of my go-to options, but despite that, I still get way too many floated crosses that go over my strikers' head. Luckly the opposite winger is always ready to tap it in...

BTW, I don't remember Pep's Barça playing many crosses, low or floated. I wouldn't say they NEVER crossed, but almost every time the opposition's defense forced them out wide, they duly backpedaled and started a new move from the back.
In FM, it almost feels like AI can't be arsed to start over, hence crossing where crossing shouldn't happen, or long shots galore.

1 ora fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

Imagine all this starting because Miles decided to put out a post in response to all the people tweeting him...

So?

People are anticipating FM20 and some would like to see something truly "revolutionary", even if, deep down, asking for tactical straightforwardness and a certain level of ACTUAL tactical plug-and-play, should be the very basics of the game.

Imagine a F1 management game where wing and suspensions settings work "kinda like in real life, but not so much" and you'll need a lot of trial-and-error (or to download premade setups) to get stuff like tyres compounds and ride height to work fine in the GP Simulation engine.
Would players be out of line by asking for that stuff to get "fixed" before getting much more complicated and non-fundamental stuff added into the game?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Of course I know there are low crosses too...

Actually, it's one of my go-to options, but despite that, I still get way too many floated crosses that go over my strikers' head. Luckly the opposite winger is always ready to tap it in...

BTW, I don't remember Pep's Barça playing many crosses, low or floated. I wouldn't say they NEVER crossed, but almost every time the opposition's defense forced them out wide, they duly backpedaled and started a new move from the back.
In FM, it almost feels like AI can't be arsed to start over, hence crossing where crossing shouldn't happen, or long shots galore.

So?

People are anticipating FM20 and some would like to see something truly "revolutionary", even if, deep down, asking for tactical straightforwardness and a certain level of ACTUAL tactical plug-and-play, should be the very basics of the game.

Imagine a F1 management game where wing and suspensions settings work "kinda like in real life, but not so much" and you'll need a lot of trial-and-error (or to download premade setups) to get stuff like tyres compounds and ride height to work fine in the GP Simulation engine.
Would players be out of line by asking for that stuff to get "fixed" before getting much more complicated and non-fundamental stuff added into the game?

So there's nothing to anticipate yet, which was my point. People getting worked up over the fact that he was letting people know there's no news yet. Even clarification creates speculation :D

Car analogies, and all analogies are terrible, but ultimately, there's never a general consensus on what the user base wants, since a) you never hear from most of it b) they want different things, and sometimes contradictory things c) that doesn't take into account what SI want to d) it won't matter for FM20 e) it was a light hearted post about how even no news causes mass speculation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minuti fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

Car analogies, and all analogies are terrible, but ultimately, there's never a general consensus on what the user base wants, since a) you never hear from most of it b) they want different things, and sometimes contradictory things c) that doesn't take into account what SI want to d) it won't matter for FM20 e) it was a light hearted post about how even no news causes mass speculation

It was a videogame analogy... and I don't think it's outlandish either... FM is great BUT there are some very basic aspects that don't really fit the bill compared to real life.

a) I assure you most of the customers are happy with winning the Quintuple every year with their superclub (or their supertactic...). They don't post here. At best they post on FB groups or YouTube channels. Those whom you hear from are passionate and, yes, opinionated at times, because they want MORE than just a bland "buy players for 100M, pick 11 of them, click Continue, win, rinse and repeat".
b)  agreed. But the basics should already be covered to a satisfactory degree of realism and straightforwardness
c) with all due respect, SI should want to have the aforementioned basics done and set in stone before throwing 100 new extra features in
d) ok, but what about FM21, 22 etc? For how long can SI keep on mending and patching the core modules?
e) the member telling a fellow member "you struggle because you don't understand football enough" didn't feel as lighthearted though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

People are anticipating FM20 and some would like to see something truly "revolutionary", even if, deep down, asking for tactical straightforwardness and a certain level of ACTUAL tactical plug-and-play, should be the very basics of the game.

The "Presets" from F19 arguably are a step in that direction. They may be undercooked, and could be taken a good step further, as it's arguably the first time ever that SI RECOGNIZE the Need / use to actually Approach STYLES as in-build concepts of the game (see my last couple posts, also in the biggie thread). If they only moved one step further, I have the suspicious that they'd have it a lot easier to actually balance each style off against each other -- and also make the resulting Play more distinct.

However, most of the time the term "plug&play" is brought up, the expectation mostly tends to be something different. Due to historial reasons dating straight back to the Diablo "Plug&play", the expecation is not not so much a "Ready-made" preset that may more or less successfully replicate a style of Football. The expectation is more a "Winning Formula" that, to simplify, stops the game from being like Football too much (e.g. Squad Quality on average being consistently largely irrelevant; AI Manager Performance being hopelessly behind; Matches most of the time not settled in tight margins, but decisive edges, so win win win win streaks more likely to happen and the game generally being significantly less frustrating and "streaky" also on a forward's end).

Whilst that is a semantic, and that's a Player choice to make, that's an important distinction. It may be an important distinction to make in the future, also in Terms of SI's considerations… they'll never attract somebody with their "Presets" who has been typically Looking for "plug&play tactics" in the past, present, future. You may be an exception, that's just my experience. From my end, the term "Plug&play" has been a misnomer in cases 9 out of 10. What SI may provide themselves may  never quite fit that bill, and that's not defending their design. Actually, most "plug&play" tactics have Always relied on big  flaws of their own engine/AI/game -- even if those flaws are then naturally rarely reported as bugs to fix. 


 

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

It was a videogame analogy... and I don't think it's outlandish either... FM is great BUT there are some very basic aspects that don't really fit the bill compared to real life.

a) I assure you most of the customers are happy with winning the Quintuple every year with their superclub (or their supertactic...). They don't post here. At best they post on FB groups or YouTube channels. Those whom you hear from are passionate and, yes, opinionated at times, because they want MORE than just a bland "buy players for 100M, pick 11 of them, click Continue, win, rinse and repeat".
b)  agreed. But the basics should already be covered to a satisfactory degree of realism and straightforwardness
c) with all due respect, SI should want to have the aforementioned basics done and set in stone before throwing 100 new extra features in
d) ok, but what about FM21, 22 etc? For how long can SI keep on mending and patching the core modules?
e) the member telling a fellow member "you struggle because you don't understand football enough" didn't feel as lighthearted though...

a) They are just as relevant as those here, which is precisely the issue with such a disparate fan base

b) some do find it straightforwards, and would consider more spoon feeding, who is right? Finding the balance isn't easy

c) simply not as straightforward as that, for a myriad of reasons

d) SI plan several iterations in front, there's no point speculating on what they might change/not change/rip up entirely

e) Wasnt my post, so I can't speak to that

Ultimately, until there's something to react to, I'm not sure it's worth reacting. There's plenty I would want changed, and even more that some are mad about but I don't care about (regen faces for example) but then I'm almost certain what I would want would sit in the minority side of the fan base

This is all far more serious than I intended to be!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 16/08/2019 at 10:37, DementedHammer said:

If things aren't going to plan in a match, change the viewing mode to full match for 5-10 minutes. It's usually fairly obvious what the issues are when you're watching all of the transitions take place. 

Exactly all you need is 5 10 mins to analyse the game and see whats going wrong, also people forget that the game has so many in depth data and  analysis tools to help. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A general conclusion after playing fm since 2012.As someone easily can see in fm careers update i found "success" almost always difficult in my fm saves (even to win league title in Gibraltar for example or quilify from 2nd to 3rd EL quilifier or win promotion after 2-3 years) i don't Q/L , create and improve my own tactic and try to keep things as more realistic i can.Maybe some (or too many) fm players cheat or i am just a bad player or maybe both..:p

Edited by Sheriff7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 ora fa, Svenc ha scritto:

The "Presets" from F19 arguably are a step in that direction.

If they only moved one step further, I have the suspicious that they'd have it a lot easier to actually balance each style off against each other -- and also make the resulting Play more distinct.

Agreed!

And yes, I really wish the Presets would provide much more significant difference in playing style. Unfortunately, there's still a lot of sameness and a feeling that some bits and pieces are almost built-in as key aspects of the ME, regardless of the tactical setup.

1 ora fa, Svenc ha scritto:

However, most of the time the term "plug&play" is brought up, the expectation mostly tends to be something different.

To me it means "if I want to play awfully outdated hoofball, I'd be able to do so with a couple of cliks instead of needing to play AGAINST the ME's limitations and idiosyncrasies only to get a half-assed, half-working version of it".

Basically I want better Presets that are actually doing what it says on the tin. Not a "yeah, this is what the tiki-taka-oriented ME can pass off as Catenaccio" kind of deal.
 

1 ora fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

a) They are just as relevant as those here, which is precisely the issue with such a disparate fan base

They are relevant, but they don't really mind/care/notice much outside of their "Click to Win" way of playing. It's like asking a vegetarian patron his opinion about your steak.

1 ora fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

b) some do find it straightforwards, and would consider more spoon feeding, who is right? Finding the balance isn't easy

Who find it straightforward? Rashidi and a selected few gurus who either have had some role in developing the game (and thus know the ins-and-outs of the game)  or who have spent an inordinate amount of time learning how to "play" the ME instead of the game.

If it were so easy, we wouldn't be having this debate. For the 26632nd time over the years.

1 ora fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

c) simply not as straightforward as that, for a myriad of reasons

Mostly marketing? "FM20, now your 1960s Catenaccio will be truly boring!" doesn't sound as appealing as "FM20, experience 2 new Player Attributes!" or as "Createyour players' diet!" :D

I know it's not easy and it can't be done overnight. But I do maintain part of the problem is that some of the basics modules have been around for such a long time they're now the foundation of a house so big it can't be remodeled anymore unless by tearing it down completely.

1 ora fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

d) SI plan several iterations in front, there's no point speculating on what they might change/not change/rip up entirely

Again, as long as the foundations are the same, there's only so much they can add or tweak. Basically they're either piling stuff over the existing base (with its known quirks and long-standing issues) or sideways hoping it won't interfere much with what's already there.

Every developer does that, but sooner or later SEGA/SI will have to bite the bullet and rethink some aspect of the game AND hopefully come up with a more flexible ME

1 ora fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

I'm almost certain what I would want would sit in the minority side of the fan base

We ALL sit in the minority side, regardless of what we'd prioritize.

Actually, anything vaguely challenging the status quo (better AI transfers, squad building etc) would cause widespread fits of rage among the "silent majority" of players who, as said, only play a save for 5-10 seasons, long enough to with everything with their favourite local club or with whichever Top Club they fancy.

And to those, even a refined ME with a state-of-the-art tactical creation system that'd yield 99% accurate input/output wouldn't mean a damn thing. Because all they care is winning. And that can be achieved by downloading a couple of tactics.

To put it very bluntly, SI will never lose that majority as long as they can keep on living their short-lived Power Fantasy. On the other hand, more dedicated players with different goals, desires and styles, may lose interest in a game where crossing has been dodgy for a decade, half of the tactical instructions don't do what you think, but who cares because you can still build an entire EPL team with Bosman players in the second summer transfer window already and overachieve IN SPITE of all that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 horas atrás, Svenc disse:

  PS: Limiting the "scope" of Micro tweaks and General decisions may also have the side-effect of making the ME and AI more robust. In particular over the Long-term. Easier to balance a game around a wider scope of decisions / "realistic"  tactical concepts and isolate its  issues than one where every competing Manager gets to apply a Million possible combinations -- even fairly "nonsensical" ones you'd never see on a footie pitch both from AI as well as Players -- btw take a closer look at your download community, SI. :D

 

 

I've said this one time. The problem with FM is that they have so many things, so many options in the game that not only make it harder for new players to get in the game, but also for the devs, because every single problem in the ME can be linked to so many little things, that every single time they take out a bug,other will appear in consequence. FM needs to be more straight foward, go full in real tactics ideas, real things that managers do, tweak their ME to actually ressemble RL football, and not put every single thing that already happened in history in tactical instructions, and expects the game to work flawless.

A lot of things need to be more clear, more direct, that is exactly why sliders are gone, because they weren't so direct like when you just click "higher tempo" or "slower tempo". To educate the FM player base on better RL tactics, but in the game ME, we will need a tactic creator way more direct (and functional) to people actually understand what is happening. You go to the tactics forum and see people playing with 5 attack roles expecting to rotate possession, people with every single instruction on because they think they are necessary,etc. Not to say about the download section, where most tactics are 442 full attack winning season after season.

This game needs to cut down a bit of the instructions and roles, put instructions that are way more straight foward to a single idea instead of putting everyone of them placed in different places, so they can work better in the ME, help everyone that is bad in tactics to not make rookies decisions (and end the "it is your tactics"). SI need to remember, put everything football related in their game just to say it is complex because of the gazillion of probabilities do not make the game good, actually make it harder for casuals, for the AI to pair with it, for themselves when they need to include new things (for example with/out the ball that wasn't implemented yet). Less in some ocasions,is more!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, masno said:

I've said this one time. The problem with FM is that they have so many things, so many options in the game that not only make it harder for new players to get in the game, but also for the devs, because every single problem in the ME can be linked to so many little things, that every single time they take out a bug,other will appear in consequence. FM needs to be more straight foward, go full in real tactics ideas, real things that managers do, tweak their ME to actually ressemble RL football, and not put every single thing that already happened in history in tactical instructions, and expects the game to work flawless.

 A lot of things need to be more clear, more direct, that is exactly why sliders are gone, because they weren't so direct like when you just click "higher tempo" or "slower tempo". To educate the FM player base on better RL tactics, but in the game ME, we will need a tactic creator way more direct (and functional) to people actually understand what is happening. You go to the tactics forum and see people playing with 5 attack roles expecting to rotate possession, people with every single instruction on because they think they are necessary,etc. Not to say about the download section, where most tactics are 442 full attack winning season after season.

 This game needs to cut down a bit of the instructions and roles, put instructions that are way more straight foward to a single idea instead of putting everyone of them placed in different places, so they can work better in the ME, help everyone that is bad in tactics to not make rookies decisions (and end the "it is your tactics"). SI need to remember, put everything football related in their game just to say it is complex because of the gazillion of probabilities do not make the game good, actually make it harder for casuals, for the AI to pair with it, for themselves when they need to include new things (for example with/out the ball that wasn't implemented yet). Less in some ocasions,is more!

This is exactly the issue with many management games including FM. It goes so in depth without true explanations of how things work that it is very overwhelming for the beginning player. We are on the forums, but how many non-english players are not so lucky to have quality content and even SI members answering questions on these forums? How many people "understand" the game playing it themselves and figuring things out without putting in many many hours? Hard to learn and hard to master in comparison with some popular games. 

Im playing another management game at the moment and now I realise again how hard these games are to start with. Of course I dont want my hand to be held in these games, but some things are not even explained (just like in FM) and left for interpretation for the user. 

Besides that, FM is doing very well for such a complex game with many many small micro things that can be done. If FM becomes even more realistic, I dont even think any of us here can survive as a manager. Good luck beating a perfect simulation of real life Klopp or Guardiola. Theres a reason why becoming a top manager isnt that easy. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, masno said:

I've said this one time. The problem with FM is that they have so many things, so many options in the game that not only make it harder for new players to get in the game, but also for the devs, because every single problem in the ME can be linked to so many little things, that every single time they take out a bug,other will appear in consequence. 

It's not "every single Problem", but many nonsensicals you can put into the tactical UI at least tend to exaggerate Problems (and also, oft lead to horrible football and "Team instructions seemingly ignored due to lack of choices or contradictions" regardless of results --- I am going to repeat this, but on this place the download sections outside a selecft few exceptions are a good example of such -- actually, any download section on any FM site ever). I agree btw, I've started advocating a complete rehaul of the tactical parts of the game, and aside of the testing and balancing process, the AI as well as the Research would likely benefit also.

 

It's a trade-off consideration. It seems clear that SI want to give as many Options to tweak as possible -- even if there's a myriad of combinations in there that really wouldn't qualify for any competitive football. At the same time, sacrificing some of it and embracing actual real-world Football concepts wholesale would in the Long-term likely lead to a much more robust game experience -- both from the AI decisions made, the Player decisions, the match engine specifically BUILD around those concepts, as well as the entire game world (no more Guardiola AI  struggling to hold the ball ever -- no more assistant Managers giving the advice to play more direct for Pep-wannabes -- no more final match Reports insisting that a counter attacking side was just "lucky" every single time it won despite barely having a third of the shots :D ) That'd be a Long-term Thing though, so.... :D 

 

 

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 horas atrás, Svenc disse:

. I agree btw, I've started advocating a complete rehaul of the tactical parts of the game, and aside of the testing and balancing process, the AI as well as the Research would likely benefit also.

 

I've also advocated this in the past, In my mind some problems that the community have happens because of the big numbers of options the players have, and the problem for the devs are there because all this freedom they gave us just put limits on where they can evolve. I remember one dev saying that they can't put a load of new things in the game because they need to think on how the AI will pair with them, how they will use it, and how they can counter us when we use it. One solution looking at the bigger picture is start walking slowly into the direction of the presets (like you said) and maybe start limiting the player for more "real" formations, so they can finally introduces with/out the ball move, that are SO important nowadays in modern football.

The benefits from it? Better balance,because every thing will be in SI hands. Easier to teach the player base, because they will be trying actually logical football tactics, and less rookies problems will be frequent. And then we will have a better ME, because the players and the AI will have the same tools (as always), but the AI will be able to finally go all in with the players. At the moment the AI can fight as equal with the player in the match, SI can go all in to focus on making they better in negociations, on squad building,etc.

The only downpoint that I can see is that the freedom that we have now would be severely cut down, but the good point in it is that we would have less nonsense exploit tactics (download section send their regards).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, masno said:

I've also advocated this in the past, In my mind some problems that the community have happens because of the big numbers of options the players have, and the problem for the devs are there because all this freedom they gave us just put limits on where they can evolve. I remember one dev saying that they can't put a load of new things in the game because they need to think on how the AI will pair with them, how they will use it, and how they can counter us when we use it. One solution looking at the bigger picture is start walking slowly into the direction of the presets (like you said) and maybe start limiting the player for more "real" formations, so they can finally introduces with/out the ball move, that are SO important nowadays in modern football.

Interestingly, similar was actually strifed for in the past. That is, in ca. the late 1980s and early 1990s, in a game called "European Champions". That's basically the Football Manager 0.5, developed by SI's Collyer Brothers on their own in their bedroom. (This is from the documentation of that game -- published in "Football Manager Stole My Life" (free preview). 

4fAAnjb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those rule changes were announced just as FM19 was receiving its last major update, so they came too late for FM19. We'll almost certainly see them come into play on FM20.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, CFuller said:

Those rule changes were announced just as FM19 was receiving its last major update, so they came too late for FM19. We'll almost certainly see them come into play on FM20.

Thanks for answering! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 horas atrás, Svenc disse:

Interestingly, similar was actually strifed for in the past. That is, in ca. the late 1980s and early 1990s, in a game called "European Champions". That's basically the Football Manager 0.5, developed by SI's Collyer Brothers on their own in their bedroom. (This is from the documentation of that game -- published in "Football Manager Stole My Life" (free preview). 

4fAAnjb.jpg

Good to see that my idea was already a thing in the devs mind. I really expects things start to change in the future, the actual ME doesn't resemble RL football. We hope for the best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moreover AI Transfer/ME improvement and I would like to see a youth squad/National Teams improvement. We are going to the FM 20 and manager a NT is not so interesting yet. We don't have all the tools to manager better a NT like a club or close. We don't have, for example, a football development plan, that would be an interesting thing for who would like manage a NT. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm probably one of the only people that hopes we never see FIFA style graphics on matchdays. More than happy with the current look just being upgraded every year with better animations etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, SortitoutsiVP said:

I'm probably one of the only people that hopes we never see FIFA style graphics on matchdays. More than happy with the current look just being upgraded every year with better animations etc.

I can understand that people say "the graphics are not important for me, I hope they invest in other things".

But hope to "never see realistic graphics" is something different, why would you be opposed to that? If it doesn't impact progress on the management side, you cannot be against a large upgrade in graphics right? ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SortitoutsiVP said:

I'm probably one of the only people that hopes we never see FIFA style graphics on matchdays. More than happy with the current look just being upgraded every year with better animations etc.

Same here, big fan of current artwork. All we need is just more animations and enhancements for player visuals, stadia, etc. in order to reflect the great ability of match engine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

- I would just like for more clear animations on some things. There are still some silly animations like when a player gets tackled and stands still like a moron for various seconds. I think he was on the ground but it doesn't have an animation?

 

- I would like a "preview" of my tactic. Some roles are not clear enough with just that short description or even like it does the same thing (Wing Back and Complete Wing Back, Full Back on Defend with Defensive Full Back), I would like to have a preview how movement, defence, attacking, transitions and etc gets affected by mentality, shape, and roles without needing to watch various matches in Full (and that before Tactical Familiarity becomes decent) to see one or two specific positions and MAYBE discover if it's working as intended and why or not and why.

Specially a role interaction with OTHER roles, it becomes very time consuming to try to analyze it, and without even knowing if you're really doing it right, so you could some preview to at least have a basic idea. The width and defensive line screen was good this year, for example (though with no movement or attacking/opposition attacking simulation).

 

- The green lines between players showing their cohesion together could receive some adjustments too. For example, my Full Back gives tons of assists to my Forwards, but they don't have a green line showing how well they play together. Or my Deep Lying Playmaker giving numerous through balls to my Forwards. Or the cohesion between my Defensive Midfields and Central Defenders, the goalkeeper with the defence, etc.

Granted, too many green lines would make the tactic screen chaotic, so maybe a different screen with lines, and just some icons of who is playing well with who and why, etc.

 

- Goalkeepers and defenders receiving better match ratings (and fans perception for becoming favourites, etc). If strikers lose/gain rating by missing CCCs, or by dribbling, creating chances, etc, then why isn't the goalkeeper not receiving points for defending those CCCs and half chances? Or defenders making crucial blocks and interceptions? Or defensive midfielders who are dominating in tackles, etc?

Fantastic goalkeeping/defending performances in real life are more often than not a 6.8 rating in FM. Many matches I won because of my goalkeeper, yet it seems the game sees if you're not having great possession, attacking and etc, the whole team is playing badly.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Besides the obvious improves of AI, ME, etc. I want better perfomance. Its fine for me ~35k database and much slower for ~50-60k DB.

I'm not sure about possibility to improve this, but I have a FM12 in Steam and I check FM12 vs FM19 DB and FM12 much better perfomance.

As I understand reasons are hierarchy, relations, better management, etc. Anyway better perfomance will cool :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lanko said:

- Goalkeepers and defenders receiving better match ratings (and fans perception for becoming favourites, etc). If strikers lose/gain rating by missing CCCs, or by dribbling, creating chances, etc, then why isn't the goalkeeper not receiving points for defending those CCCs and half chances? Or defenders making crucial blocks and interceptions? Or defensive midfielders who are dominating in tackles, etc?

Fantastic goalkeeping/defending performances in real life are more often than not a 6.8 rating in FM. Many matches I won because of my goalkeeper, yet it seems the game sees if you're not having great possession, attacking and etc, the whole team is playing badly.

 

Interestingly, the traditional Problem was vice versa. E.g. a side shutting up shop (which the AI loves to do every other week) is/was guaranteed a MOM Rating for the keeper if the Team didn't lose, as due to their defensiveness, teams shutting up shop face a lot of weak/er shots (headers from set pieces, ranged attempts, blocked attemts, attempts under a load of pressure oft rather easy to come by), and the keeper catches them all more often than not. YOu could have tried this yourself if you wanted (very few actually do as they're biased towards playing attacking football and trashing their opponents and scoring more). That sounds like overcorrection on SI's end, however, on Prior Releases this was one of the reasons why Players raged About "super keepers" they'd face every other week. Presumably those were put in so that nobody would break the game and trash every Opposition 10-0. :D 

Ratings are tricky, I think they would actually need to take each team's style into account too (and an internal preciser value of how likely a Chance is to be scored would Need to take into consideration too -- and I don't mean the CCCs). The way ratings currently work in tendency is that stuff is being counted (Goals, assists, missed tackles, what have you), and then the Rating bump is applied. Likewise, if a Forward scores two Goals, he gets a great Rating -- why should he considering that he may be simply doing this Job and would be expected to score this many as he's being assisted all over the match and made the focal Point of every attack? Likewise, is it necessarily a good sign if a  midfielder is completing a tons of tackles per match or is just a byproduct of him being caught out of Position over and over. Granted, that's the difficulty actual Team Ratings have too (assists and saves and in particular Goals scored in Isolation are oft "overrated" in General); at least in the Mainstream. However, I've never really trusted FM's Ratings, in particular not in themselves. :D 

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lanko said:

- I would just like for more clear animations on some things. There are still some silly animations like when a player gets tackled and stands still like a moron for various seconds. I think he was on the ground but it doesn't have an animation?

 

This should be the highest priority for new animations, in my opinion.  It's difficult to tell what's happening when your player stumbles a bit and stands still, and it's frustrating as heck to watch. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would be nice if the goalkeeper could actually be sent off by taking out a player. 

Still the most glaring ME omission as it’s something that happens in real life which is impossible to see in FM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...