Final: Argentina vs France, 3PM GMT, Lusail Iconic Stadium

[themadsheep2001]

I haven't followed this argument anywhere near enough to care, but Gunman, really if you're going to try and call people out the way you do, you really should do some self reflection as it would be fair to say most of the accusations you throw out, could be aimed squarely at you with ease 

[Haguey]

I like Gunman, posts some silly or spicy takes but he winds people up which is always fun.

[Bootador]

 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[Bootador]

Hmmm.... I have doubts.

Also, I love Gunman - genuinely good poster that adds something to the forum 

[Haguey]

Absolutely, give me spicy takes to be debated over what some other (mostly on ignore) posters offer any day.

[GunmaN1905]

3 minutes ago, Haguey said:

Absolutely, give me spicy takes to be debated over what some other (mostly on ignore) posters offer any day.

My take wasn't even spicy, I just listed how all the losers of recent shootouts either had young players or players who don't take penalties missing.

Then out of that entire post where I had a nice discussion with Rob, tiktoker comes with Mickey Mouse cup penalty shootout and VvD scoring one and how that disputes my take of him not taking a single one in his career. Which he didn't, during regular time.

If I didn't mention VvD, nothing would've happened, but as per usual, bloodthirsty mob of Liverpool fans comes to defend the one who is yet to be dribbled past.

[Rob1981]

37 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Portugal and England both got eliminated because of turgid coaches who were afraid to take initiative until they went a goal down

Scored a combined 24 goals, 23 of them when they weren't a goal down.

[The_jagster]

5 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Scored a combined 24 goals, 23 of them when they weren't a goal down.

I was going to post a similar reply but took Gunman at his word that he was 'done'

[Baptista_8]

Another GunmaN fan here

Remember, no-one's perfect. The culture on here makes you feel you should/need to be at times.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Baptista_8

[GunmaN1905]

12 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Scored a combined 24 goals, 23 of them when they weren't a goal down.

Switzerland game is the only game in many years where Portugal looked like they should against good opposition. They barely qualified, ffs. Lost at home against Serbia in the decider, when Santos defended a 1-1 draw because it was enough. We've seen how Serbia fared against serious teams.

The typical syndrome of a team being too good to contain when the floodgates open.

Ever since Santos took over, they've been by far the worst team in terms of productivity compared to talent they have. The entire population wanted him gone after the last World Cup and horrible performance, but then he managed to stay for EURO and another World Cup.

In the end, they barely created anything against Morocco. You can't tell me that a team with Bernardo, Bruno, Joao Felix and Leao can't create anything against Morocco. Other than hoofball.

England? Argentina showed everyone how it's done against France.

9 goals against teams that have no place in the World Cup don't mean that much. Zero against USA and three against Senegal without their only two decent midfielders, with goals coming from ridiculous lack of midfield awareness.

You surely know how to put a battering on weaker sides, but if you think that Southgate wasn't turgid in every single game you played against good opposition, then I can't help you. Enjoy getting disappointed once more at EURO.

It's like me saying Croatia scored 4 against Canada, when the gameplan for every other  match was absolutely dreadful. Then suddenly he lets the team play against Morocco and it's the best attacking display we had in the tournament.

Edited December 19, 2022 by GunmaN1905

[Astafjevs]

It's utter nonsense like that post on England and Portugal that mean people tire of gunman. Not a 'spicy' take; a completely inaccurate take.

[kopsy101]

Nobody defended VvD, just laughed at your logic. Just reading back, it's terrible logic. That's why you had a bloody meltdown, you buffoon  

25 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

My take wasn't even spicy, I just listed how all the losers of recent shootouts either had young players or players who don't take penalties missing.

Then out of that entire post where I had a nice discussion with Rob

Yes! Some more self analysis from Narcissistic boy, more please!

[GunmaN1905]

12 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

It's utter nonsense like that post on England and Portugal that mean people tire of gunman. Not a 'spicy' take; a completely inaccurate take.

Well, I respect your opinion that it's a nonsense take.

But then, I've had the same take for 2 tournaments in a row if we talk England and three if we talk Portugal.

Southgate's eliminations had his team score one free-kick, one penalty and one open play goal, second minute against Italy.

Santos, with all the talent at his disposal, had his team score one goal in his last three eliminations. Pepe scoring from a corner against Uruguay in 2018.

Belgium's defense is all but stellar and they failed to score. Morocco was a great defensive team, but hardly an obstacle which they shouldn't be able to score against.

2016 when they won, they played about as well as Greece in 2004, but noone ever complains about turgid Portugal, big team lovers will just say how Greece winning was a disgrace to football. And you know me, I'm all for good defensive showing, I just hate hypocrites who can't look past the names on the back of player's shirts.

 

This is now six combined eliminations for England and Portugal with them scoring a grand total of 1 open play goal from 600 minutes combined. And I've said many times that if we talk pure talent and variety of players, England and Portugal are top3 with France right now. Top2 considering the injuries France had.

At least Portugal got rid of Santos.

In the end, I accept your opinion of my take being nonsense, but I don't your opinion for validation, since somehow for three tournaments in a row, my nonsense take is proven to be right.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by GunmaN1905

[enigmatic]

5 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

England? Argentina showed everyone how it's done against France.

A penalty, a counter attack and lots of risk-free possession against a team that were only half fit, followed by panicking when they subbed on some players that could actually run?  

 

tbf I'm a GunmaN fan because rubbish takes are what this forum is all about.

 

[kopsy101]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

since somehow for three tournaments in a row, my nonsense take is proven to be right.

 

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, enigmatic said:

A penalty, a counter attack and lots of risk-free possession against a team that were only half fit, followed by panicking when they subbed on some players that could actually run? 

They didn't let them do anything until Otamendi finally remembered who he actually is and made a final out of it.

They made them completely sterile with possession, something England should've done. But then again, they couldn't have done so because you've got immovable object (and not in a good way) in defense and every attempt of trying to push up and pressure would end up with Maguire being exposed like Lovren. Then we go back to why is Maguire being selected? (And Lovren. )

Then someone's going to say he had a great tournament, the usual casual take.

Yeah, he had a great tournament with a team set up in the only way Maguire could look decent on a top level. Southgate got the best out of his worst player, instead of trying to get the best out of his best player.

[The_jagster]

Of course teams aren't going to score many open play goals if you only select matches they lost and ignore the ones they won.

[enigmatic]

1 minute ago, The_jagster said:

Of course teams aren't going to score many open play goals if you only select matches they lost and ignore the ones they won.

And ignore the goals not from open play. Do that and Argentina had a pretty poor tournament too 

 

 

[GunmaN1905]

7 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Of course teams aren't going to score many open play goals if you only select matches they lost and ignore the ones they won.

Colombia - penalty.

Sweden - corner and open play.

Germany - probably the best game you played under Southgate and only win against a big team, Germany is always Germany, despite being weak for their standards.

Ukraine - battering a subpar team.

Denmark - own-goal and penalty.

Senegal - battering a subpar team.

As I said, flat track bullies.

Portugal?

Won only that Switzerland game since the 2016 EURO which was utter turgid fashion win. Again, full credit, but let's not pretend they played any more positive football than Greece in 2004 just because it says Cristiano and Bruno on the back of their shirts.

2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

And ignore the goals not from open play. Do that and Argentina had a pretty poor tournament too 

Argentina had a ton of chances in first two knockout games, Lautaro absolutely bottled it. They created plenty.

 

Now if you want my humble opinion on why isn't England scoring more goals against top teams other than defensive tactics, the answer would be obvious.

You don't have a proper playmaker in midfield, someone who creates goals out of nothing. Either play Foden behind Kane or play some kind of 3-4-3 with Foden creating on the left and TAA on the right. That would be the most basic take. Current gameplan was all about getting it to Saka and hoping he can beat his man and then make the right decision. Isolated Saka because Walker got the Mbappe 0 xG trophy.

Edited December 19, 2022 by GunmaN1905

[Rob1981]

7 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Argentina had a ton of chances in first two knockout games, Lautaro absolutely bottled it. They created plenty.

Wait, what?  We can count all Argentina's chances but we can only count England's open play goals? 

Sounds fair.

[GunmaN1905]

6 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Wait, what?  We can count all Argentina's chances but we can only count England's open play goals? 

Sounds fair.

You scored from first chance (or was it second?) against Senegal who was no match and missed their two best midfielders.

Other than the penalty which should've been given if it was inside early on, against France I don't remember any chances you had other than Saka and Theo falling over eachother for that low-cross in the second half.

There was Maguire's header from set-piece, probably withing Lloris' reach.

 

Look, all I'm trying to say is that I believe England's attacking potential is ridiculous and that you should've been playing way more progressive football against top teams. We can go back and forth for like a dozenth time, we have difference in opinions.

I believe Portugal will play way better now that Santos is gone, we'll see if Southgate will grow a pair come EURO.

Edited December 19, 2022 by GunmaN1905

[kopsy101]

Whatever, i'm done here

[enigmatic]

2 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Argentina had a ton of chances in first two knockout games, Lautaro absolutely bottled it. They created plenty.

 

Ah, they created chances against the mighty Saudi Arabia! And had a whole eight shots in a must win game against Mexico (a side roughly on a par with Senegal, Ukraine or Colombia but probably better than Iran tbf). Must have been a top class attacking performance to manage half as many shots as we managed against France!

(and FWIW I'd say this Argentina side has been above average in excitement and attacking quality by the standards of international tournament winners I've seen)

Weird how all these sides that keep doing better than us at World Cups seem to also win their games by the odd goal, rely on their defence a lot and need penalties to settle games against decent sides, and have some games where none of the open play chances they create go in.

[Rob1981]

19 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

all I'm trying to say is that I believe England's attacking potential is ridiculous and that you should've been playing way more progressive football against top teams ... we'll see if Southgate will grow a pair come EURO.

But we did play more progressive football

We went toe to toe with one of the best two teams in the competition.  More shots, more possession, more corners, more passes.  By any objective measure we were equal to them, if not better.  Watch any of the highlights reels and there were more England chances than France chances.  We went into that game believing we could win it instead of just hoping that we might.  And for large parts we looked like we deserved to.  So I'm sorry, but the "same old Southgate" stuff is just lazy.

Fact is, you'd made your mind up about Southgate before we'd kicked a ball.  I mean, I'd made my mind up too.  But if we'd lost 3-0 to France I would have admitted I was wrong.  Whereas if we'd beaten France 3-0 you would say it was because they "bottled it", or because Mbappe had an off day, or because they had too many players out, or because we relied too much on set pieces or because Sterling got a soft penalty or something.

[Rob1981]

May as well post that graphic where we blame Southgate for only beating Paraguay and Trindad & Tobago and Ecuador in 2006, even though he was working for ITV at the time.

[GunmaN1905]

12 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Ah, they created chances against the mighty Saudi Arabia! And had a whole eight shots in a must win game against Mexico (a side roughly on a par with Senegal, Ukraine or Colombia but probably better than Iran tbf). Must have been a top class attacking performance to manage half as many shots as we managed against France!

I was just referring to knockout matches. Group stage is completely irrelevant when as long as you qualify.

13 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Weird how all these sides that keep doing better than us at World Cups seem to also win their games by the odd goal, rely on their defence a lot and need penalties to settle games against decent sides, and have some games where none of the open play chances they create go in.

If Argentina relied on their defense, they would've been at home for two weeks now.

You can't rely on defense if your defenders aren't good enough.

Stacked teams like Portugal on France won by relying on defense because their defense was good enough not to crumble under pressure, unlike England's.

13 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

But we did play more progressive football

We went toe to toe with one of the best two teams in the competition.  More shots, more possession, more corners, more passes. 

Morocco also had all those. What's the common ground? Both teams most of the match chasing result. France opened the game way better and England didn't do anything until that first goal.

Quote

Watch any of the highlights reels and there were more England chances than France chances. 

I already mentioned all the chances you created. There were a couple more shabmles in the box after set-pieces and that save Pickford had on Giroud's header. Then there was that Dembele situation where he completely missed the ball. Both those were better than anything England created.

Quote

We went into that game believing we could win it instead of just hoping that we might.  And for large parts we looked like we deserved to.  So I'm sorry, but the "same old Southgate" stuff is just lazy.

Yeah, it wasn't the same old Southgate, I'll give you that. But still it wasn't the Southgate you needed.

You can say that Mount got that penalty, but it came from absurd situation where Theo committed a foul for no reason, it's not like Mount even got the ball.

Southgate was too late with subs, alongside taking out your best player.

Fwiw, Scaloni was also too late with subs for the first time last night, but it didn't backfire like it did for England.

Quote

Fact is, you'd made your mind up about Southgate before we'd kicked a ball.  I mean, I'd made my mind up too.  But if we'd lost 3-0 to France I would have admitted I was wrong.  Whereas if we'd beaten France 3-0 you would say it was because they "bottled it", or because Mbappe had an off day, or because they had too many players out, or because we relied too much on set pieces or because Sterling got a soft penalty or something.

You can go back to that topic and check all of my comments.

I had multiple posts saying that the game is there for the taking and that England is a better team. And then the subs were late. We also talked about how a lot of coaches get better with time at preparing the games against certain teams, but are just incapable of making decisions and adjustments during the game itself, probably afraid they will make the wrong decision.

Again we come back to the same thing, I think France's defense was really shaky this tournament, especially the Theo-Upamecano duo on their left side and I also think England has ridiculous attacking potential.

Another fact is that you created absolutely zero clear chances against them, compared to you even Morocco had better situations. Saka falling over the ball in a really difficult situation and two penalties, one coming from a situation that was harmless. A few set-piece shambles and one shot from Maguire.

If you're going to tell me that team with such attacking force isn't good enough to create a single clear goalscoring opportunity against a injury-ridden France, then fine. I think otherwise.

But yet again, somehow it's third tournament in a row where England fan has every reason to be upset about losing in a match that was there for the taking.

And we've come full circle again with repeating everything we said for tenth time.

[The_jagster]

You have forgotten Kane in the first half but that probably doesn't count as it was poor from Upamecano.

[aggressive minor]

Gunman is spot on about England. The sad thing is there’s so much more potential in that team, but we won’t reach there with Gareth.

Mancini completely and utterly out managing him in the euros final is a great example.

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, The_jagster said:

You have forgotten Kane in the first half but that probably doesn't count as it was poor from Upamecano.

Sorry, I forgot it as the penalty situation was similar, outplayed Upamecano both times.

Making you wonder, why isn't one of the best strikers utilized better instead of having to be some kind of secondary playmaker in midfielder?

[Rob1981]

2 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Yeah, it wasn't the same old Southgate, I'll give you that. But still it wasn't the Southgate you needed.

But you've said this again and again and again

I'm not saying he got everything right.  But you keep comparing it to 2018 where we played a completely different type of match with a completely different set of players.

[Lucas]

Don't think Gunman is wrong about Portugal either. Enough quality in that team to have challenged for a WC (maybe not this year)

[skybluedave]

Do we have to talk England all the time. It's proper boring now

[GunmaN1905]

4 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Do we have to talk England all the time. It's proper boring now

Noone wants to talk about Fernando Santos, Deschamps or Dalić and their anti-football.

Southgate is the easiest target on UK forum. 

[skybluedave]

It's the World Cup Final thread bud

[pearcey_90]

3 hours ago, Astafjevs said:

Agree that goalkeepers are a big factor. They don't really have any pressure on them either which helps loads. Doesn't ever get talked about in shootout buildups - you'd think TV pundits or the production teams would have save ratios ready because there's goalkeepers out there who are at either extreme and who are impacting shootouts (positively or negatively). I feel like I rarely see this info or hear this discussion.

They always want to look at how to decide games that are tied after ET, and it always goes back to penalties is only way.

So based on that, I agree goalkeepers are a big factor, so I would like a change to be made for penalty shootouts, that anyone in the squad can take one, and you can choose a keeper. I do think as the game progresses, it's proper archaic that only the players on the pitch at the end can take a penalty, so you get subs made with 1 min to go. Just allow the manager to pick the order from any of their squad, and change the goalkeeper if they have one on bench that would be better at saving. 

[aggressive minor]

7 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Do we have to talk England all the time. It's proper boring now

It’s an English heavy user base, with tons of Gareth fanboys as he’s a (genuinely) nice guy. What do you expect!?

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, skybluedave said:

It's the World Cup Final thread bud

You must be fun at parties after a few pints.

I have to go now, but if you've got something left to say about the final, start a discussion, I'll join in when I'm back in a couple of hours.

This all started with penalty shootout talk and tiktoker ruining it by making it all about Liverpool.

[skybluedave]

Just now, aggressive minor said:

It’s an English heavy user base, with tons of Gareth fanboys as he’s a (genuinely) nice guy. What do you expect!?

Use the England thread? Or create an ABE thread. What happened to those. Used to always get one for a tournament.

[skybluedave]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

You must be fun at parties after a few pints.

The bloody cheek 

[aggressive minor]

Just now, skybluedave said:

Use the England thread? Or create an ABE thread. What happened to those. Used to always get one for a tournament.

It was clearly flowing from Gunman’s conversation.

The WC final was yesterday, what’s the issue?

[aggressive minor]

1 minute ago, skybluedave said:

Use the England thread? Or create an ABE thread. What happened to those. Used to always get one for a tournament.

ABE threads- England are full of genuinely nice guys and talented players, the issue a chunk of us have is Southgate, not the players as such.

[VamPook]

9 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

This all started with penalty shootout talk and tiktoker ruining it by making it all about Liverpool.

"Whatever, the tournament is over, I'm done here"

*cries*

[decapitated]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64031272

Quote

France players Kingsley Coman and Aurelien Tchouameni have been subjected to online racist abuse after missing their penalties in the World Cup final.

France were beaten 4-2 in a penalty shootout by Argentina on Sunday as they failed to defend their world title.

Coman's club Bayern Munich have since posted a message of support for the 26-year-old winger.

His penalty was saved by Argentina goalkeeper Emiliano Martinez, while Tchouameni's effort went wide.

"FC Bayern strongly condemn the racist comments made towards Kingsley Coman," said the German club in an online statement.

"The FC Bayern family is behind you, King. Racism has no place in sport or our society."

It follows the racist abuse aimed at Marcus Rashford, Jadon Sancho and Bukayo Saka after England's Euro 2020 final defeat by Italy last year.

All three players missed penalties in the 3-2 shootout loss and were targeted on social media after the game.

 

[buffalo]

6 minutes ago, decapitated said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64031272

 

indeed, similar to the upheavel and garbage post Euros penalties 

I sure hope they follow up on this and will investigate seriously to send a clear message to those who send this garbage

[skybluedave]

23 minutes ago, aggressive minor said:

The WC final was yesterday, what’s the issue?

Well England got knocked out over a week ago. What's the issue?

I just think the subject has been done to death and most of the time it's Gunman doing all talking and repeating same stuff. Southgate, Dalic, Deschamps and Santos all have something in common despite their "anti football"

And it isn't about fanboys vs people that know the truth like you childishly trying to frame it either. I know Rob lives rent free in your head but it's also tiring reading that every little thing that goes wrong is Southgate's fault. Just because some people don't think Southgate is complete and utterly useless doesn't make us a fanboy. Not everything is so aboslute.

I don't think there is some giant divide among fans that want England to be successful either. Vast majority respect Southgate for what he's done, acknowledge he has flaws but also know the list of decent alternatives are pretty slim (assuming they want English guy).

Edit: Crap, I'm well aware I said I didn't want to talk about it and now have 

Edited December 19, 2022 by skybluedave

[enigmatic]

10 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

I was just referring to knockout matches. Group stage is completely irrelevant when as long as you qualify.

OK, you got me. Super impressive that they created chances against Australia. Still unconvinced that's more impressive than thrashing a much better side than Australia in the same round though   Don't remember much creativity against the Netherlands apart from that lovely first goal either. They won because they took better penalties.

Ironically the only game the whole tournament they had Messi absolutely running the show like England's less-good-than-Messi players are apparently supposed to do every time they come up against a decent side was against you guys, but even that one involved most of the chances coming from horrible defending

 

12 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

If Argentina relied on their defense, they would've been at home for two weeks now.

Nah, they scored their penalties when their defence failed them. If they relied on open play goals they'd have been in trouble though.

Mostly they played low risk low tempo stuff and created fewer chances per game than England. The completely batshit final extra time when both sides went for it was the exception, but I don't think there was much tactical planning going on there.  

[Weezer]

Spoiler

 

Argentinians party hard!

Edited December 19, 2022 by Weezer

[craigcwwe]

On 18/12/2022 at 19:00, CFuller said:

Southgate finally delivers a trophy for England.

Le Tournoi now has company. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]