SI, this is why I'm done with FM after 11 years

[sixsecondsleft]

Quite simply, managing morale is not fun.  We want to manage football not a soap opera.  We want better AI and more tactical control.  We want realism, but we want it on the field!

For the last few years, FM has been less and less fun, and for me, this is why.  So, after playing every year since FM06, I have not purchased FM18.  I've seen plenty of reviews of returning players who seem to feel the same.  I hope SI listens to all the feedback their getting. 

[JordanMilly]

I'm not entirely sure what issues people are having with morale. I'm hardly a pro at the game, yet I've not once had a dressing room revolt or someone demand to go on the transfer list, or lost the confidence of the squad. I've had fewer issues with morale in FM18 than I had in FM17, because the added features have made it that much easier for me to know what might be making a player upset and deal with it ahead of time.

[AytchMan]

Have to disagree.  Speaking for myself, I like the features related to managing team and player morale.  Not that there's not room for improvement.  But managing morale is a key part of the job in real life football.  And it's hugely important.  A couple of years ago, I posted a plea for the development of a large set of random events of all types -- related to players, the club and staff -- that affect morale.  The community's reception to the idea was, I humbly submit, overwhelmingly positive.  And I still hope that one of these days SI will incorporate the concept into the game.  If you're interested, search on "Cheeky Disquisition".

 

Here's the actual post: 

 

[Bigpapa42]

A LOT of users do like the morale / personality elements. Because despite the interactions being imperfect, its a realistic element of being a football manager. It plays a huge part on in any sport. 

Can understand wanting a simplified version. A lot of FM gamers do. And SI even makes a version that fits that - FM Touch. Highly recommend giving it a try. 

[Ross Ingersoll]

I had a issue with managing moral until I purchased a ebook long ago about it, I would be willing to send it to you. its from a earlier version of fm but most still holds true

[HUNT3R]

FMT cuts out a lot of interaction - have you tried that?

[Butters76]

I feel like Tobias Funke.
Job require you to be an analyst and a therapist.

[Andrew_Goats_Gruff]

You don’t want to manage morale but you want to play Football Manager?

 

People think way too much into morale on Football Manager, just remember these things are part of the illusion. 

Tactics, players and team talks is all you need to do good, no matter what morale you have, certain team talk with certain tactics will help you more than having super morale.

[XaW]

Well, if morale is an issue, why not play FM Touch and get rid of it completely?

[shirajzl]

This is still the same underlying issue that, for some reason, playing FMT is "beneath" a lot of people. I've seen that attitude so many times it's baffling.

[Butters76]

48 minutes ago, Andrew_Goats_Gruff said:

You don’t want to manage morale but you want to play Football Manager?

 

People think way too much into morale on Football Manager, just remember these things are part of the illusion. 

Tactics, players and team talks is all you need to do good, no matter what morale you have, certain team talk with certain tactics will help you more than having super morale.

Morale have been extremely important for several years now in FM. That's why its been so hard to get out of a bad spell of games. Coz when morale is low or very low they simply don't perform. Kind of realistic, problem is morale drops very quickly if you lose 3 games in a row. And its hard to dig your way out of it. Its like 3 games lost and the players lose all confidence in you.

[bassistuk]

Seriously I've never had issues with morale ever. The only downsides are my tactics sometimes micro tweaking before each match but that's the joy of FM I guess. 

[Heywood JaBlowme]

To those who suggest FMT, speaking for myself, I will do that when SI develops an In Game Editor for it...

[Smurf]

9 hours ago, sixsecondsleft said:

Quite simply, managing morale is not fun.  We want to manage football not a soap opera.  We want better AI and more tactical control.  We want realism, but we want it on the field!

For the last few years, FM has been less and less fun, and for me, this is why.  So, after playing every year since FM06, I have not purchased FM18.  I've seen plenty of reviews of returning players who seem to feel the same.  I hope SI listens to all the feedback their getting. 

I've said it before - answering journalists questions isn't fun - a player moaning and then trying to pacify the situation and then the player gets upset and half the team then get disgruntled - is  not fun.

It's like that scene out of BIG - what's fun with playing with a building!

I don't get it!

 

[Smurf]

I know there's other games out there like FMT - and whatever - but I don't want a watered down version of the game. 

We all want a game that's fun - park the media interaction, social side, it's not fun! Managing the team is fun, that's what got me hooked in 1993! 

I haven't, sadly, bought a version since FM2012 - and that was from buying every version from 1993 to 2012; that's 19 years of consistent yearly buying - to suddenly stop, says a lot.

[XaW]

12 minutes ago, Heywood JaBlowme said:

To those who suggest FMT, speaking for myself, I will do that when SI develops an In Game Editor for it...

But.... If you want to use the in game editor, can't you just make the players happy using it? Or is that not an option in the editor? I don't know as I've never used it.

3 minutes ago, Smurf said:

I know there's other games out there like FMT - and whatever - but I don't want a watered down version of the game. 

We all want a game that's fun - park the media interaction, social side, it's not fun! Managing the team is fun, that's what got me hooked in 1993! 

I haven't, sadly, bought a version since FM2012 - and that was from buying every version from 1993 to 2012; that's 19 years of consistent yearly buying - to suddenly stop, says a lot.

If you really like the old CM/FM then FM Touch is just up your alley. It's watered down, yes, but mostly back to what the old FMs were. And if you haven't bought an FM since FM12, then there's A LOT, seriously, A LOT of new features. But you won't miss them in FMT, since, you know, you haven't used them before. Therefore, FMT might be just the game for you. Or not, I really don't know what you are looking for in a game.

[Nonlondoner]

I had this problem with "Office Manager 2013", all I wanted to do was look at the office and watch people doing their jobs. But I kept being distracted by HSE compliance issues, queries from staff and requests to arrange building works. So I gave up on it. If they change it so it no longer simulates the job of an office manager I might give it another go.  I also played "Pointing At Things 2015" rather hoping it would fill the void left by Office Manager 2013 but it was just pointing at things. 

Anyway, a bit off topic but a good comparison.

Right, back to my never-ending search for PC game that simulates the job of a football manager. Any pointers, always appreciated. 

[Tony Wright 747]

7 minutes ago, Smurf said:

I know there's other games out there like FMT - and whatever - but I don't want a watered down version of the game. 

We all want a game that's fun - park the media interaction, social side, it's not fun! Managing the team is fun, that's what got me hooked in 1993! 

I haven't, sadly, bought a version since FM2012 - and that was from buying every version from 1993 to 2012; that's 19 years of consistent yearly buying - to suddenly stop, says a lot.

I can understand that FM12 was one of the peaks on the FM journey, as was FM16 in my opinion.  Waiting for the next one

[grade]

26 minutes ago, Heywood JaBlowme said:

To those who suggest FMT, speaking for myself, I will do that when SI develops an In Game Editor for it...

I'm the same, but i'm waiting for the Pre-Game editor. if that day comes, I will join FMT ranks.

[Smurf]

12 minutes ago, XaW said:

But.... If you want to use the in game editor, can't you just make the players happy using it? Or is that not an option in the editor? I don't know as I've never used it.

If you really like the old CM/FM then FM Touch is just up your alley. It's watered down, yes, but mostly back to what the old FMs were. And if you haven't bought an FM since FM12, then there's A LOT, seriously, A LOT of new features. But you won't miss them in FMT, since, you know, you haven't used them before. Therefore, FMT might be just the game for you. Or not, I really don't know what you are looking for in a game.

Why should anyone have to go to a different game model to have fun. Simply put, I shouldn't have to.

SI have shoehorned in a lot of features to make things more real - but they're not fun. First and foremost, it's a game, and secondly it's to simulate football management. 

There's others facets of management - like Training - I'd love to see training days, where you setup a 5 aside matches for 30 minutes. Or have 1 striker against 3 defenders - or 1 one 1 with keeper. 

That's more management of the the team - and overseeing training. 

But that's my vision - drastically different to managing social media feeds.

 

[shirajzl]

9 minutes ago, grade said:

I'm the same, but i'm waiting for the Pre-Game editor. if that day comes, I will join FMT ranks.

What would you use the editor for? 

[themadsheep2001]

Fun is entirely subjective. The "it's a game" comments don't really matter here, because different people will take different bits of enjoyment (or lack of) from different aspects of the game.

SI have to weigh that up, and weigh up their own visions of what they want to achieve

[Smurf]

Of course it matters - we all want it to be a better "game" - that's why we turn up here everyday to give honest and brutal opinions. 

We all want to drive the game forward. And when we all see features being added to where it's seen as poignant in regards to the game; and with this, other features aren't improved on and/or neglected --- it can be disappointing.

That being said - the game did top the Global Charts for the first ever on Steam - so there's something going right for SI and Sega. 

What that is is a mystery. 

 

Perhaps newer people to the game are very happy with it. I guess I may be far too old and played too many versions, I have played the game for 25 years.

Maybe I'm just past it. 

 

[forameuss]

7 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Why should anyone have to go to a different game model to have fun. Simply put, I shouldn't have to.

SI have shoehorned in a lot of features to make things more real - but they're not fun. First and foremost, it's a game, and secondly it's to simulate football management. 

There's others facets of management - like Training - I'd love to see training days, where you setup a 5 aside matches for 30 minutes. Or have 1 striker against 3 defenders - or 1 one 1 with keeper. 

That's more management of the the team - and overseeing training. 

But that's my vision - drastically different to managing social media feeds.

 

 

6 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Fun is entirely subjective. The "it's a game" comments don't really matter here, because different people will take different bits of enjoyment (or lack of) from different aspects of the game.

SI have to weigh that up, and weigh up their own visions of what they want to achieve

This.  

Why should you say what people should or shouldn't find fun?  By all means say that something isn't fun for you, but all your posts on this seem to be speaking for everyone.  I personally don't care about training, and I'd never see any changes they added to it given I never touch it.  So I wouldn't find that fun.  Not going to claim that everyone hates it though, and that they shouldn't be touching it.

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, forameuss said:

 

This.  

Why should you say what people should or shouldn't find fun?  By all means say that something isn't fun for you, but all your posts on this seem to be speaking for everyone.  I personally don't care about training, and I'd never see any changes they added to it given I never touch it.  So I wouldn't find that fun.  Not going to claim that everyone hates it though, and that they shouldn't be touching it.

Precisely. I can't speak for others, and others certainly can't speak for me. The use of "we" here, should really be "I"

[shirajzl]

I understand @Smurf's sentiment because it took me quite a while to accept the direction FM is going. Eventually, you have to face the reality and make a decision.

If it wasn't for FMT, I'd genuinely stop playing FM because the full fat version stopped being fun for me some years ago.

[forameuss]

Totally.  My most wanted feature for FM for now and for many editions now, is a workable API.  90% of people who buy the game would have no idea what an API is, and 9% of the rest would probably never touch it.  I fully realise it's what I want for those reasons, and I would never claim that it's going to be this amazing thing that everyone is going to want.

[YKW]

10 hours ago, AytchMan said:

 

 

That's a really cool idea. You should redo it and post it in the Feature Requests forum. There's probably at least a couple of weeks before the ideas in there get reviewed so if you do it before then it could be considered for FM19.

[Cougar2010]

27 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Why should anyone have to go to a different game model to have fun. Simply put, I shouldn't have to.

SI have shoehorned in a lot of features to make things more real - but they're not fun. First and foremost, it's a game, and secondly it's to simulate football management. 

There's others facets of management - like Training - I'd love to see training days, where you setup a 5 aside matches for 30 minutes. Or have 1 striker against 3 defenders - or 1 one 1 with keeper. 

That's more management of the the team - and overseeing training. 

But that's my vision - drastically different to managing social media feeds.

 

Pretty sure if you had to watch training every in game day for any length of real time you would be one of many complaining.

[Smurf]

Well - I am speaking from my point of view - and it's not fun for me - apologies if I came across as speaking for everyone.

[Smurf]

7 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

Pretty sure if you had to watch training every in game day for any length of real time you would be one of many complaining.

Didn't really mention everyday - but it would be something to add to managing the team. 

News item - X Player did well in training and X Player improved free kicks/penalty taking in training - Do you want to view video reel of training?

 

[RorysRocketThrow]

Like it or not, the morale side of things is pretty key in the real world, as is dynamics and squads turning against managers.

It is in the game because the game is a simulation of real life football.

I've heard countless real life managers moaning that the game isn't as it used to be and players not being like they used to be 20 odd years ago. Players used to look after themselves, dressing rooms used to govern themselves etc but no longer. Players have to be pampered, can't take criticism etc.

The game now reflects that and I dare say if we knew the ins and outs we'd say it doesn't go deep enough with that, hidden, dark side of football.

People who prefer the older games are probably the same as older managers, who walked away from football pre Premier League and big money ie it wasn't for them.

Life simulating game?

[Smurf]

I told a player in the FM18 demo that he was great in front of goal after securing 4 goals and got a rating of 9.8.

He said he could have done better, and half the team got pissed off at me. Morale slipped as did league position from 2nd to 7th and got sacked.

Interactions are great - but they have to be less consequntial and more real.

[KUBI]

That's a good point. "Managing" people was a lot easier 30 years ago, especially youths, just ask the teachers. There are still some "I'm the Boss" types of managers like van Gaal, but a lot of the younger ones combine tactical and man managment in a new way. And I like it how this is reflected in the game. But of course there is always room for improvements.

[Just-Wool]

1 hour ago, Smurf said:

I know there's other games out there like FMT - and whatever - but I don't want a watered down version of the game. 

We all want a game that's fun - park the media interaction, social side, it's not fun! Managing the team is fun, that's what got me hooked in 1993! 

I haven't, sadly, bought a version since FM2012 - and that was from buying every version from 1993 to 2012; that's 19 years of consistent yearly buying - to suddenly stop, says a lot.

I don't get it. You don't want the "watered down fm touch but you want fm touch? 

If SI removed media interaction and morale, then fm touch is what you'd get. Unless you'd rather they just stop selling fm full fat.

[Cougar2010]

1 minute ago, Smurf said:

Didn't really mention everyday - but it would be something to add to managing the team. 

News item - X Player did well in training and X Player improved free kicks/penalty taking in training - Do you want to view video reel of training?

 

You mentioned watching 5 a side matches for 30 minutes amongst other things.

Yes we all accept training happens but I really can't imagine other than a very small % of FM users wants to sit watching training, even amongst the hardcore users you would be hard pressed to find a significant amount that want to watch training on a regular basis.

There were feature request threads last year asking for training to be more linked to matches which is fine but watching it happen would just be a massive waste of resources for SI IMO.

 

[Smurf]

A 30 minute 5 a side game - like a full game like you'd normally watch - but a 5 aside game.

This could be an option to boost fitness, if there was a break of a week, you could have a 5 aside game on a wednesday to boost your players match fitness. 

 

[craigd84]

For me, and i mean no offence but it just comes across as you not knowing what you truly want smurf.

You are coming across as someone who thinks football is only fun! Maybe you need a sunday league mode where there is no social media and other aspects you dont like, like moral.

 

But correct me if im wrong, moral was in ALL of those CM/FM games... im certain it was in CM97/98.

[craigd84]

3 minutes ago, Smurf said:

I told a player in the FM18 demo that he was great in front of goal after securing 4 goals and got a rating of 9.8.

He said he could have done better, and half the team got pissed off at me. Morale slipped as did league position from 2nd to 7th and got sacked.

Interactions are great - but they have to be less consequntial and more real.

That HAS to be a bug.. im sorry but that just never happens. 

 

However something similar that does happen.. you get a winger get two assists from crosses and tell him his passing was good and he gets angry LOL.

[Smurf]

Anyway - I only mentioned it as a facet of football management that entails managing the game.

1 idea - from 1 person. If you don't like it - it's not in the game. If you do like it then get behind the idea. 

I'm sure there's lots of other things in a  real football managers life that is not in the game. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/football-league-blog/2014/dec/16/day-in-the-life-bournemouth-manager-eddie-howe

http://www.planetfootball.com/in-depth/day-life-cambridge-united-manager-shaun-derry/

 

[Cougar2010]

1 minute ago, KUBI said:

That's a good point. "Managing" people was a lot easier 30 years ago, especially youths, just ask the teachers. There are still some "I'm the Boss" types of managers like van Gaal, but a lot of the younger ones combine tactical and man managment in a new way. And I like it how this is reflected in the game. But of course there is always room for improvements.

Maybe its because I have always managed people IRL but I find that section of FM fairly straight forward and I struggle to understand peoples difficulties with it.

Its not like I do anything special or game the system in any way, I simply respond the same way I would if it was a real situation.

One example last night was a 30yo 2nd choice DR who asked for more playing time.  He has recently declined to two stars and I'm looking to replace him before his contract ends in 18 months.  Before the conversation I decided if he pushed it I was happy to sell him but I chose to go with "the first choice DR is in good form so you need to wait for your chance".  He chose to back down and wait his turn.  I'm already planning/expecting him to raise the issue again in the summer at which point I'll probably sell him and I have the next six months to find a replacement.

[Smurf]

3 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

For me, and i mean no offence but it just comes across as you not knowing what you truly want smurf.

You are coming across as someone who thinks football is only fun! Maybe you need a sunday league mode where there is no social media and other aspects you dont like, like moral.

 

But correct me if im wrong, moral was in ALL of those CM/FM games... im certain it was in CM97/98.

You're right - but I don't know what I truly want - but it's not my job to make FM better - no offence to the FM staff - they do make the game better - and it's great work they do. 

Well it's a game - and the fun is sucked out of it when you have a great team of players and you get on great one day - then the next day they are up in arms and losing every game because you said someone played well and you were happy with them.

 

2 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

That HAS to be a bug.. im sorry but that just never happens. 

 

However something similar that does happen.. you get a winger get two assists from crosses and tell him his passing was good and he gets angry LOL.

So how is yours not a bug? 

I agree it's a bug. To say it never happens is preposterous, as it did happen.

[psucolonel]

1 hour ago, Smurf said:

I know there's other games out there like FMT - and whatever - but I don't want a watered down version of the game. 

We all want a game that's fun - park the media interaction, social side, it's not fun! Managing the team is fun, that's what got me hooked in 1993! 

I haven't, sadly, bought a version since FM2012 - and that was from buying every version from 1993 to 2012; that's 19 years of consistent yearly buying - to suddenly stop, says a lot.

Then how could you possibly know if FM is a good product or not?  

[Urotsukidoji]

Ive had no problem with the morale of my team. Even when Charlie Mulgrew, my most influential player asked for a transfer. I told him to shut up and concentrate on his playing and he did and didn't even get unhappy. I think a lot depends on how successful you are as a team and as a manager. Also reputation comes into play.

[Smurf]

@psucolonel Because I play the demos - I am on the forums everyday. I read, digest, watch Twitch, get involved with the game in other ways. And in discusssions like these.

It's good to discuss. I've had several things mentioned on the forums implemented into the game. I once had a thread about how we never get to have a press conference when we sign a player, it's in the game. I think in FM11 (when 3d came in not sure if it FM11 or FM10) there was a whistle for both offside and for a foul - and I recommended using a flag for offside.

So these discussions are good for getting cogs going, developing ideas - do I have great ideas all the time - NOPE  - but no harm in trying and discussing. 

 

[Heywood JaBlowme]

2 minutes ago, Urotsukidoji said:

Ive had no problem with the morale of my team. Even when Charlie Mulgrew, my most influential player asked for a transfer. I told him to shut up and concentrate on his playing and he did and didn't even get unhappy. I think a lot depends on how successful you are as a team and as a manager. Also reputation comes into play.

Can I ask what your rep was when you gave him that reply? 

If I said something similar to Icardi, who’s been a royal pain in my a** since day one, there would probably be mutiny.

[Urotsukidoji]

I chose the highest coaching badges and highest reputation when I started the game. Since then I have won league one and the efl trophy and now sit on top of the championship.

[FMunderachiever]

Managing morale is a key part of real life football no doubt but the way its captured on the game isnt very good imo.

Player plays well. You congratulate him and in the process **** him off. Seems kind of silly. Ive had players get annoyed that i wished them a speedy recovery from injury. Sorry for caring about your wellbeing, idiots.

Also discussions between you and a player spill over too much into you having 10 of them coming to you to demand whats going on. And you know its coming. Seems very weird.

Morale also goes away far too quickly. Lose ONE game youre already on a slippery slope. Lose three the situation is getting desperate. 

Team meetings too.... if we can have a tactical briefing every week why cant i have a damn team meeting to say pick it up or keep it going?? Why would you get annoyed at me speaking to you for 5 mins to say i want you to kick on?

All elements seem too fickle to me.

[MHovel]

What I don't like with morale in game is that people tend to increase/boosting players morale by using the conduct and training performance talks.

How I know that the player conduct is good? I'm not able to see players conduct, so according to what i'm praising him?

And praising player conduct every week just to increase his morale so the player perform better, is an exploit (even though it's not recognized as exploit).

IRL, you don't see managers talking to the players about their conduct and praising their conduct every few days. I don't know such of thing happen IRL, and even if it does, it's very rare.

If you would tell me that the club hires a psychologist who tend to talk with the players and to work with player individualy, this makes more sense for me, but as managers in FM17/18, it's completely a feature to exploit so your players will perform better.

IRL, not after every interactions players respond positively.

[HUNT3R]

16 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

Managing morale is a key part of real life football no doubt but the way its captured on the game isnt very good imo.

Player plays well. You congratulate him and in the process **** him off. Seems kind of silly. Ive had players get annoyed that i wished them a speedy recovery from injury. Sorry for caring about your wellbeing, idiots.

Also discussions between you and a player spill over too much into you having 10 of them coming to you to demand whats going on. And you know its coming. Seems very weird.

Morale also goes away far too quickly. Lose ONE game youre already on a slippery slope. Lose three the situation is getting desperate. 

Team meetings too.... if we can have a tactical briefing every week why cant i have a damn team meeting to say pick it up or keep it going?? Why would you get annoyed at me speaking to you for 5 mins to say i want you to kick on?

All elements seem too fickle to me.

All of this depends how you manage it. The morale example for instance depends entirely on what you say. I've lost 5 in a row before and still had average morale instead of it being rock bottom. 

As for the responses, they make it fairly clear in the response and for the most part, it depends on whether they respect you or not.