Is "Lower Defensive Line" a "Lose Now!" button?

[Tilling]

 

On 29/04/2020 at 04:40, witchplease said:

I think the same since even if there's no other way for opponents to score there's always op set-pieces. I like defensive setups so have tried a lot to somewhat replicate Jose's or Conte's systems but just couldn't keep clean sheets so i slowly went back to good old overused gegenpress. But around 9 games ago (low sample size but still) i went back to trying low block and strangely enough haven't conceded a single goal whenever i have played that way (still playing extremely urgent pressing and counter-press though, while i do want to play less pressing and more regrouping like Jose's mastaklass days but don't think i or my team is ready for that yet). I was already having the best defensive performance this season compared to other teams but i was still barely keeping clean sheets (7 out of 21), always conceding that 1 pesky goal in late game.

But now i kept 6 clean sheets in all 6 games where i played low defensive line, the 3 games where i conceded a goal is when i played at least standard or higher line. So low block might've some potential in this fm with right kind of players and what not despite all the problems this ME's got. As far as dealing with set-pieces go i am using some downloaded routine which has definitely helped against those **** goals. Downloaded from here - https://tacticasfm.menorketing.com/football-manager/jugadas-balon-parado-setpieces-fm20/

For all i know it could just be a small lucky run of games but if you want i can go in detail about what i think has helped me get better results with low defensive line.

I'd be keen to see this

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

"In Possession" only instruction, eh?  Well, well.  How nice of SI to put such an instruction on the "Out of Possession" tab only when you're making a tactic

It's most probably been put under the Out-of-possession section of instructions because it essentially is a defensive instruction. I mean, it does affect where your back-line (or at least CBs) will be positioned the moment you have lost the ball. Which actually is the beginning of the out-of-possession phase of play. So it's not to say that it does not make any sense at all, although I do agree it can confuse people (including myself "once upon a time"  ) 

 

5 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

So then at other end - Line of Engagement.  That's an "Out of Possession" only instruction only, yes?

Yes. 

 

5 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

So to make the defensive block, you take the D-Line setting from where your last line of defence is positioned in possession.  Then take LoE is the instruction for where you tell your forwards to start pressing from the moment you turn the ball over

[zyfon5]

9 hours ago, jsx7ste said:

True. Although you could also argue that the LLOE tactic got sacked on both occasions. I'll do another one tomorrow. What is clear is that the preset Catenaccio is not the tactic to go for it seems

can u rerun the genoa one with the fluid counter attack tactic? managers sacked are not a good statistical indicator as the game can sack the manager for various different reasons. also if u look closely to chelsea's performance they actually lose one less game on the LLOE tactic and have lower points due to an unlucky amount of draws. if they had scored a few more goals the results could be very different. so for me the results from both tactics are very similar.

[jsx7ste]

6 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

can u rerun the genoa one with the fluid counter attack tactic? managers sacked are not a good statistical indicator as the game can sack the manager for various different reasons. also if u look closely to chelsea's performance they actually lose one less game on the LLOE tactic and have lower points due to an unlucky amount of draws. if they had scored a few more goals the results could be very different. so for me the results from both tactics are very similar.

Bob was sacked in December using the fluid counter LLOE. It was a highly recommended preset for their team too. 

[Guest]

A low block in the right system with the right players can absolutely work, period!!!

[witchplease]

On 30/04/2020 at 23:05, Tilling said:

 

I'd be keen to see this

Cool, though i should tell you i am a massive noob when it comes to tactics, i mostly use plug & play tactics (still using them as base before tweaking for my liking) so take it all with a block of salt.

I have better defenders than before so that obviously helps but also most of them have really good Concentration stat which i think is pretty solid when playing low block as your defence would have to stay focused for most part of game so i like to think it helps at that, plus it also helps at defending late game. Besides having better defenders than before, i think adding OI's every game is one of most effective change i have made to my tactics. Every game i check opponent players' stats & traits to put OI's according to their weakness, or strengths in some cases (Strengths as in if some opponent is fast and great dribbler i put 'easy tackle' OI on him so he won't draw many fouls or get around while my defenders try to tackle him making a fool out of themselves).

Here are some links from where i took pointers to set my OI's - 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/451185-fm-20-tactic-list-and-fm-19-recommended-tactic-list/page/223/?tab=comments#comment-12394269

https://community.sigames.com/topic/451185-fm-20-tactic-list-and-fm-19-recommended-tactic-list/page/224/?tab=comments#comment-12394320

https://community.sigames.com/topic/451185-fm-20-tactic-list-and-fm-19-recommended-tactic-list/page/224/?tab=comments#comment-12394341

 

So overall it's not much, just better defenders and putting OI's every game, maybe having formation 433/4141 helps too. Still haven't gotten attacking part of my tactic right but defence really carried me in my current season. Finally, would not not suggest having VvD no matter his age, man's 38 in my cm soon to be 39, got physicals like a turtle with asthma but still got performances to get into PL TOTY from my side. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Experienced Defender
removed a link to FM Base site

[giggety]

Mixture of standard block and low block depending on opposition and players available:

Don't go low block unless you really have to. Just keep it simple in terms of shouts and do not use a cautious mentality.

[OrientTillIDie]

On 02/05/2020 at 13:03, giggety said:

Mixture of standard block and low block depending on opposition and players available:

Don't go low block unless you really have to. Just keep it simple in terms of shouts and do not use a cautious mentality.

Would you go for a Balanced mentality when trying to implement a low block? Or Defensive? Or even Attacking, in the sense that you’re dropping your team deep but want them to break with directness and speed when they get in back? I’ve never really considered the low block before but I’m toying with the idea of trying it.

[giggety]

1 hour ago, OrientTillIDie said:

Would you go for a Balanced mentality when trying to implement a low block? Or Defensive? Or even Attacking, in the sense that you’re dropping your team deep but want them to break with directness and speed when they get in back? I’ve never really considered the low block before but I’m toying with the idea of trying it.

I played positive for ~75% of the games and the rest attacking. Anything lower than positive becomes counter productive.

I could probably write up a full thread on how I view defensive systems, but let's just say that the defensive (or solid) football should have a certain balance between willingness to score and keeping a clean sheet. If you think, and no one can fault you for that IMO, that a low block goes well with a cautious mentality, you are really just levelling yourself into a thought process that emphasizes too much on one thing while neglecting the other. 

The problem is that you need a really specific type of player and a foremost very good players to be able to get Mourinho-esque results from it, i.e. win trophies while not exactly dominate the opponents.

Edited May 4, 2020 by giggety

[Novem9]

 I played with lower DL in FM19 and my team was 3th despite ~16th media prediction.

In FM20 lower DL = losing personally for me. Really hope it will be better in fm21. This game is sandbox for me and really disappointed to ignore a part of opportunities

[Bunkerossian]

When play-testing what works and what doesn't with AC Milan, I found that stopping big clubs like Juventus and Lazio requires a low block. It's not a foolproof solution, but trying a high press ended in failure every time. A flat 4-1-4-1 was my formation (I normally play the wide MF-s pushed up.)

[Experienced Defender]

@crusadertsar I've removed your post and I am sure you know perfectly well why.

In case you need an explanation, please contact me via PM. 

[crusadertsar]

17 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

@crusadertsar I've removed your post and I am sure you know perfectly well why.

In case you need an explanation, please contact me via PM. 

[CaptCanuck]

I brought my Lower LOE - DL - Counter attack tactic out for 5 matches last season 2025/26 (ManU, Chelsea, Bayern, Everton x 2) with 13 goals scored and a 4-1 record (ManU beat us with set pieces).

It can be a fun way to play when the opposition wants to play football and you've got the attacking players to take advantage of it.

[hook61]

@OvermarsSame thing happens with me 

Whenever I hold back the defensive line and counter-attack mentality against a strong team, it doesn't work at all, and even though the game suggests it, that's the logical one, but the game doesn't accept it.This game wants everybody to be a little Guardiola lol.You only need to play short pass,position football,and high pressure rival team's squad doesn't matter.This game clearly offers us this football as a favorite.I realized that counter-attack football only works when the opposing team is attacking with all its might,for this your opponent team's tactic should attacking or all out attack.I tried this myself and prepared their tactics with 2 different managers in the same league.First manager counter attack mentality and defense line lower, lower,counter no other settings.Second manager possession mentality and short pass,high def line,gegenpress,work ball into box and lower tempo.I won the game with the second manager, it put the opponent under constant pressure and the opposing team never made a counter attack.Counter attack does not work in this game against Posession football.But it's not like that in real life,I write these articles based on experience, not just after 1 match result.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, hook61 said:

and counter-attack mentality

There is no "counter-attack" mentality in FM20/19. 

 

3 hours ago, hook61 said:

Whenever I hold back the defensive line and counter-attack mentality against a strong team, it doesn't work at all, and even though the game suggests it, that's the logical one, but the game doesn't accept it.This game wants everybody to be a little Guardiola lol.You only need to play short pass,position football,and high pressure rival team's squad doesn't matter.This game clearly offers us this football as a favorite.I realized that counter-attack football only works when the opposing team is attacking with all its might,for this your opponent team's tactic should attacking or all out attack.I tried this myself and prepared their tactics with 2 different managers in the same league.First manager counter attack mentality and defense line lower, lower,counter no other settings.Second manager possession mentality and short pass,high def line,gegenpress,work ball into box and lower tempo.I won the game with the second manager, it put the opponent under constant pressure and the opposing team never made a counter attack.Counter attack does not work in this game against Posession football.But it's not like that in real life,I write these articles based on experience, not just after 1 match result

If you post a screenshot of your tactic as a whole - with roles, duties, mentality and all instructions you are using - you may get useful advice on what you are possibly doing wrong. Because the info you provided is too small to be of any use. 

[NotSoSpecialOne]

In my mind, setting LLOD anything lower than standard is more of a choice you make based on your central defenders pace (mainly but not exclusively) vs that of the opposition rather than a choice you make because you want to play defensive and hit on the counter. That is to say, I'd make that call when I want my defenders to sit deeper in possession to nullify the pace of the opposition strikers when we do lose the ball. But maybe I'm wrong in this thinking?

 

[hook61]

@Experienced Defender I wanted to say cautious mentality

I don't need to share any tactics or roles, just use the simplest tactic as a counter attack with cautious mentality against posession football.Just use the counter-attack tactic against a ai or real player against position football, especially with lower def line you will see how much defeat results.You will see how badly the team trying to counter attack is playing, it will be under constant pressure and will not be able to counter attack.As a result of my previous article, the only reason I didn't share tactics and score the match results is that these articles are completely based on experience.These articles I wrote are not the result of 1-game or 10-game articles. I have already written this in my other article.Are you answering my article without reading?

Counter-attack football in the game completely works against too many risky attacks and ai very rare to play like that.The opposing team you play with must press you completely high their def line must be much higher line,their mentality must be attacking or all out attack.However, in this way, the  team can counterattack, I have tried this many times.In this game, counter attack works this way only against much risky offensive football.Counter attack football with cautious mentality will be under constant pressure against position football and will not work.

Edited October 3, 2020 by hook61

[DarJ]

4 minutes ago, hook61 said:

just use the simplest tactic as a counter attack with cautious mentality

This statement makes me wonder if you really know what counter attacking football is. I'm not saying this to discredit you but there are a lot of things to consider if you want to consider setting up a counter attacking tactic; it's not just setting the mentality and defensive line. Do you know you can play counter attacking football on any mentality? 

Personally I think people seem to struggle with counter attacking tactic because they don't know how to set it up or when to use it; for example if you are managing a top side it would be useless for you because 95% of the teams you play against would defend against you so you can't really counter if the opposition isn't attacking you. 

Even as an underdog team, there are times where you need to take the game to the opponent for example, i just won the Champions League against Manchester United after 13 years of trying and I have some good players but they are not as good as the players Manchester United have and what I did was set up defensively to counter attack in the first and it worked because I didn't concede but I didn't create much either, then in the second half I set up the tactic as I would if I was playing another team and we scored 3 goals but the scored 3 as well so in extra time I went very attacking til the end and ended up winning on penalties. All this to say that If i kept defending for the entire 90 minutes I would have lost that game because even if they only shoot from distance one would likely go in or I'll keep giving away free kicks and corner until they score

[NotSoSpecialOne]

16 minutes ago, DarJ said:

This statement makes me wonder if you really know what counter attacking football is. I'm not saying this to discredit you but there are a lot of things to consider if you want to consider setting up a counter attacking tactic; it's not just setting the mentality and defensive line. Do you know you can play counter attacking football on any mentality? 

Not only can it be played on any mentality, I'd further argue that it is perhaps even more effective on an attacking mentality. Everything else about your tactical setup can still be defensive and one can always lower the mentality to a more conservative one mid match when you've gone ahead.

[hook61]

@DarJHello buddy thanks for your answer

  41 minutes ago, hook61 said:

just use the simplest tactic as a counter attack with cautious mentality

 

The reason I wrote this way I just wrote this for the counter-attack on cautious mentality with low defensive.

My aim is to explain what happens when someone is played with a low defensive line in counter-attack football like Burnley when Jose Mourinho was ruling inter.Obviously, this shape is the cautious mentality for football is the most logical and visible mentality.Low defensive line and counter-attack football I have never tried playing in the offensive mentality or positive mentality.Playing on the low defensive line and try to counter attack offensive mentality or posession seemingly contradicts each other,but I don't know if this is a game running or not, how the match engine will react, I am not trying to explain it anyway.What I want to tell you is the completely cautious mentality of counter-attack football and low defense line.

 

For example, the small team wants to play counter-attack, with cautious mentality and a low defensive line.If the big team is playing possesion football on posivite mentality, it will easily beat this counter attack team.(If the team playing the posesion football does not use conflicting directives.I assume big team is playing with the description in the positive mentality in the game so not with long passes or high tempo).

At this point, in order for the small team to win, the big team must play very risky offensive football, at this point the team playing counter-attack with lower def line team can find a chance to win.

Otherwise, small team will not have a chance due to the low line of defense and he will lose under constant pressure of posession football.Playing low defensive line and possesion football on posivite mentality is also disadvantageous against the team playing with a high defensive line posession (positive mentality).

Edited October 3, 2020 by hook61

[Rashidi]

What it does, for convenience SI place these instructions into 3 categories, in/out and transition. However, these are merely guides as team instructions affect tactics broadly.

Defensive Line: Sets an arbitrary point on the pitch where your backline will position itself when you have the ball and in turn it affects how far you need to recover when you lose possession. So a team playing with a high defensive line will typically be positioned further up the pitch, this allows teams to perform gegen pressing where their defenders are so high up the pitch, that defending teams have problems coming out of their own half.  A high defensive line also influences the amount of support the midfield will receive. A low defensive line introduces a gap between your defense and midfield and this needs to be bridged somewhat. 

If you want to play with a passive defence. What does one mean by a passive defence? What are you looking for? A low block could have a low defensive line ( you won't be expecting your defensive line to be too far away from goal, therefore it needs to be bridged with some role), played with a DM, you could set the team on hard tackling with normal pressing. 

There are other things one could do to make the defense a rock, things like Marcelo Bielsa styled position marking that is easy to achieve in the game and this can work to reduce passing lane options.

[Rashidi]

To develop a counter attacking style you essentially work with passing directness, your general formation, a standard/lower line of engagement. Your defensive line just sets how much compression you want to introduce into your system. I typically am happy with a standard defensive line, if i want my fullbacks to be a big part in the counters then I will play on a higher defensive line.

Mentality is incidental to how much risk i want to take.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, hook61 said:

I wanted to say cautious mentality

I don't need to share any tactics or roles, just use the simplest tactic as a counter attack with cautious mentality against posession football

Well, that's exactly the problem - and the major mistake that most people make when thy want to play counter-attacking football. Because unlike passive defensive styles (e.g. catenaccio or parked bus), where lower team mentalities make sense, counter-attacking football is a more proactive brand of defensive football that relies on fast transtions. And those fast transitions work much better on a higher or at least balanced team mentality. So when I want to play a counter-attacking style, I opt for either Balanced or even Positive team mentality - not cautious. Defensive solidity and compactness that counter-attacking football requires are not achieved through the team mentality but the combination of D-line and LOE as well as a balanced setup of roles and duties.

But you don't want to share even your roles and duties, let alone the rest of the tactic, so I really cannot tell you what else (i.e. besides the mentality) you are potentially doing wrong and how you can improve the tactic. 

[hook61]

20 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, that's exactly the problem - and the major mistake that most people make when thy want to play counter-attacking football. Because unlike passive defensive styles (e.g. catenaccio or parked bus), where lower team mentalities make sense, counter-attacking football is a more proactive brand of defensive football that relies on fast transtions. And those fast transitions work much better on a higher or at least balanced team mentality. So when I want to play a counter-attacking style, I opt for either Balanced or even Positive team mentality - not cautious. Defensive solidity and compactness that counter-attacking football requires are not achieved through the team mentality but the combination of D-line and LOE as well as a balanced setup of roles and duties.

But you don't want to share even your roles and duties, let alone the rest of the tactic, so I really cannot tell you what else (i.e. besides the mentality) you are potentially doing wrong and how you can improve the tactic. 

Accessing this information is as difficult as searching for gold in the mine.The explanation of the game about the Cautious mentality and your explanation is really different.So today I am learning that counter-attack football with fast transitions should be played in a positive mentality or a standard mentality.It is almost impossible to learn this with the explanations in the game.So what kind of football should we play with the Cautious football mentality? Is it counter attack football with slow transitions?.Is there a guide to access this informations?.Since people are wrong about this subject, why a proper guide etc. is not included in the game.If I had not written these articles to you today, I would have continued to be mistaken if I had only played with the explanations in the game.

 

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, hook61 said:

The explanation of the game about the Cautious mentality and your explanation is really different.

Well, to be fair, the name "Cautious" explains exactly what it does. It asks your team to play cautious football. Safety-first approach, nothing too adventurous. That not only impacts your baseline Team Instructions, but also your players' individual mentalities, meaning they will take less risks in general (both, offensively and defensively).

Now ask yourself this: Is counter-attacking football really cautious? If you're counter-attacking, you want to do things quickly and aggressively, you want to expose the space behind opposition before they have a chance to recover. You don't want passes to be too cautious, you want them to be quick and forward-oriented. That's why a more attacking Mentality would make more sense, as ED explained.

Cautious Mentality on the other hand, tends to work better for possession-oriented systems, where you want to break teams down in a patient and calculated manner.

If I was to create a counter-attacking tactic, I'd follow these pointers:

• Bottom-heavy formation (e.g. 4-4-2, 4-1-4-1)
• Moderate or attacking Mentality (e.g. Balanced, Positive, Attacking)
• Standard Defensive Line + Lower Line of Engagement

That would be my starting point and then it depends just how clearly you want to define your style when it comes to the rest.

However, no tactic will cope if your players aren't suited to it. Whereas you can usually get away with overly-attacking tactics with poor players, overly-defensive ones can be a bit trickier to pull off. Such tactics are very demanding in terms of defensive attributes, because you're essentially inviting tons of pressure onto yourself, meaning your players need to be able to cope with that. If your defenders and midfielders can't defend effectively, you're probably better off trying to outscore your opposition.

If you're interested in more, I've a thread on extremely defensive and counter-attacking football, where I explain my thought process in more detail. It's definitely possible to play such styles in FM, as long as you manage your expectations. You can overachieve slightly, but you're hardly going to go on endless winning streaks parking the bus. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, hook61 said:

Accessing this information is as difficult as searching for gold in the mine.The explanation of the game about the Cautious mentality and your explanation is really different. So today I am learning that counter-attack football with fast transitions should be played in a positive mentality or a standard mentality.It is almost impossible to learn this with the explanations in the game

I absolutely agree with you on this. and that is one of the problems I would like SI to address. Mentality labels can be misleading, especially for less experienced FM players. So I fully understand where your confusion comes from 

If I were to name team mentalities in FM, they would be like this:

- Very defensive = Extremely conservative

- Defensive = Very conservative

- Cautious = Fairly conservative

- Balanced = Balanced

- Positive = Fairly adventurous

- Attacking = Very adventurous

- Very Attacking = Extremely adventurous 

1 hour ago, hook61 said:

So what kind of football should we play with the Cautious football mentality? Is it counter attack football with slow transitions?

No. Because there is no counter-attacking football with slow transitions. There are slow-transition styles of football that use counter-attacks as an additional tactical weapon when an opportunity arises, but that's very different from the counter-attack as a distinct style of football. 

[Enzo_Francescoli]

In real life, most football managers do not play every game the same way. They adapt their tactics and approach on a week-to-week basis and often in-game as well. Most of us who play FM, we ecpect our tactics to work the same every game and just go with it until it stops working. It is not realistic. Apart from those crazy exploit tactics which work regardless of the opponent, tactics should be tweaked depending on what you're facing in the next game. (Well ,excpet if you're the best team in the world and everybody plays defensive against you, even in the CL). I realize it is a lot of work to put into a computer game and I too am guilty of using exactly the same thing when I don't have the time or energy to tweak constantly.

Sometimes a low block is the way to go. Sometimes you gotta defend high. Other times you play exclusively on the counter. There are a thousand variations of every tactical set-up, and this is where individual instructions and OI's come in.

The biggest problem with this game, in my opinion, that some things just work better than others, and that's irrespective of your players or the opponent you're facing.

You've gotten a bunch of advice above about how big roles and duties are when setting up a low block. I would add team formation to that as well. A low block in an already bottom heavy formation most likely won't work in this game. 

Please note that in real life football, a low defensive line is a must when a team wants to apply a low block. Think about it: a low block means that your won't engage the opponent until it gets to your half. Anything but a low d-line will compromise the block because a high line will naturally push the midfielders higher up to avoid all your team being in the same place. Even the game reflects that in theory: observe the d-line-LOE slider which divides the pitch to three parts - opponent area, middle, your area. To set up a low block, your aim is to have the midfielders in that bottom area, which represents your half of the pitch. Otherwise it is a mid-block by definition. The only way to have your midfielders below that line is to go with a lower defensive line. Now, much better players than me seem to suggest above that a low-block is set up exclusively by the LOE slider. And, I believe therein lies the problem. The game considers  something that otherwise should be a middle block, a low-block. The threshold is differentthan in real football. So, what we who watch a lot of football would generally consider a safe and sound low-block, is the most extreme park the bus set-up ingame.

So, yes, a low d-line coupled with a bottom-heavy or even balanced formation is basically a lose now button in this game. Add a passive defensive style too and there's no point in actually playing the game anymore. That's plainly wrong, though, if you ask me. There is a reason that putting 9 or 10 men behind the ball, populating their area in great numbers, playing relatively risk-free football has been one of the most popular MO's of smaller teams for like 60 years. And the greatest irony of them all is that AI itself uses set-ups like this all the freaking time. To be fair, it doesn't work for it either, most of the times, except for when it comes to possession numbers maybe.

[hook61]

@Zemahh You are doing great work my friend I will follow you, you are the person I am looking for xd

@Experienced Defender

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I absolutely agree with you on this. and that is one of the problems I would like SI to address. Mentality labels can be misleading, especially for less experienced FM players. So I fully understand where your confusion comes from 

If I were to name team mentalities in FM, they would be like this:

- Very defensive = Extremely conservative

- Defensive = Very conservative

- Cautious = Fairly conservative

- Balanced = Balanced

- Positive = Fairly adventurous

- Attacking = Very adventurous

- Very Attacking = Extremely adventurous 

No. Because there is no counter-attacking football with slow transitions. There are slow-transition styles of football that use counter-attacks as an additional tactical weapon when an opportunity arises, but that's very different from the counter-attack as a distinct style of football. 

This answer seriously enlightened me thanks for everything.I realized that the tactic I was doing was spoiled by mentality.That's why when I pull back the defense line, it is constantly under pressure and whatever I do, it doesn't work to go counter attack.I hope the mentality explanations in the game will be corrected in the following series. This is seriously misleading people.

[Experienced Defender]

22 minutes ago, hook61 said:

I realized that the tactic I was doing was spoiled by mentality.That's why when I pull back the defense line, it is constantly under pressure and whatever I do, it doesn't work to go counter attack

Actually, in a counter-attacking tactic the Line of engagement needs to be set to lower, not D-line. Standard D-line coupled with lower LOE is basically the "ideal" combination, because it creates a low block with an optimal level of compactness.

Team mentality on the other hand is still an important factor because it automatically affects all (other) instructions along with individual player mentalities. However, it does not define your style of play. Therefore, a low team mentality does not always equate to a defensive style of play, just as - by the same token - a high team mentality does not automatically lead to attacking football of any sort. 

[kornflex]

On 03/10/2020 at 14:43, Experienced Defender said:

Well, that's exactly the problem - and the major mistake that most people make when thy want to play counter-attacking football. Because unlike passive defensive styles (e.g. catenaccio or parked bus), where lower team mentalities make sense, counter-attacking football is a more proactive brand of defensive football that relies on fast transtions. And those fast transitions work much better on a higher or at least balanced team mentality. So when I want to play a counter-attacking style, I opt for either Balanced or even Positive team mentality - not cautious. Defensive solidity and compactness that counter-attacking football requires are not achieved through the team mentality but the combination of D-line and LOE as well as a balanced setup of roles and duties.

But you don't want to share even your roles and duties, let alone the rest of the tactic, so I really cannot tell you what else (i.e. besides the mentality) you are potentially doing wrong and how you can improve the tactic. 

Not once during those match previews has any of my players (on several different teams) seemed to understand this. Being an underdog the only "agreed upon" mentality seems to be cautions or below, which I think adds to the confusion of many FM players.

[Bot Makel]

I think it's essential to find a balance between creating a solid defense and being able to score.

This must be done starting from an idea but verifying and arranging it by watching the games and making the necessary improvements.

It is not a question of mentality or defensive line.

In every game we will need to make small changes to cope with our opponent.

[zyfon5]

3 hours ago, Bot Makel said:

I think it's essential to find a balance between creating a solid defense and being able to score.

This must be done starting from an idea but verifying and arranging it by watching the games and making the necessary improvements.

It is not a question of mentality or defensive line.

In every game we will need to make small changes to cope with our opponent.

Playing on the counter attack means that you will be mostly reacting to your opponent. Hence it is no surprise that those `defensive managers` are very tactically flexible and change their approach depending on the opposition. Unfortunately most FM players just do not have these kind of tactical flexibility or able to make changes on the fly depending on what is happening in matches. Hence your average FM players will naturally find more success playing more attacking and proactive.

[Bot Makel]

45 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Playing on the counter attack means that you will be mostly reacting to your opponent. Hence it is no surprise that those `defensive managers` are very tactically flexible and change their approach depending on the opposition. Unfortunately most FM players just do not have these kind of tactical flexibility or able to make changes on the fly depending on what is happening in matches. Hence your average FM players will naturally find more success playing more attacking and proactive.

I'm perfectly agree with you!

I don't think managers on FM are not flexible, they just prefer to have things easier. Every tactic, even those that arise to control the game, in some cases need small adjustments.

Making the right changes is not easy especially at the beginning but then you get carried away.

First of all, you have to watch the games and pay attention to what happens, take the time to analyze the data and movements.

Knowing your tactics and seeing what happens allows you to react and bring home the result.

[Robson 07]

For those still reading up on defensive lines, this is an excellent new article from Sky Sports.  Check it out.

High Defensive Line

[Tsuru]

Yes, lower LOE and lower defensive line are kind of a "lose button" on FM 20 and FMT 20. I play the Touch version and, without the tactical familiarity, it´s even more clear. Systems with higher defensive line, higher LOE and more urgent pressing are very powerful even for weak teams - you change to them and your team magically reacts and takes control of the game. I didn´t use gegenpress, but I can tell from Vertical Tiki Taka and Control Possession. 

I think part of the problem is on the pressing system, that looks very unbalanced. The other teams press so hard and so precise that, when I use other defensive systems, my players are stuck on our own half, even against weaker opponents. So we will concede anyway, unless we press back and hard. My opponents leave acres of space behind, which could be easily exploited by my team, but even with the right roles, duties and instructions, a strategy to use that space is not well succeeded. The maximum I got were tons of hooffed balls without direction, or players just kicking the ball to the byline with two or three options around.

It sounds kind of unrealistic sometimes. Weaker teams could press, but they would do more mistakes and leave space for me to exploit than the bigger ones. However I don´t see this happening on the current match engine.

This may change from version to version. I remember around 8-10 years ago that it was the complete opposite - counter attack was very powerful and high line, high pressing systems were then the lose button, you had to defend first and then strike to be successful. 

I think this always follows the launching time - nowadays gegenpressing and attacking systems are much more popular and used by bigger teams than counter and direct strategies. Systems with three and the back and defensively solid were used during the 90´s and 2000 and the 4-2-3-1 was developed exactly to break them, creating the "4231 era" or "gegenpress era" in which we are right now.

I also would prefer a more balanced tactical creator, in which you could create anything you want and make it work (accordingly to your team, obviously), like it was on FM 15. But this is not the reality on FM 20 -  I am not Klopp neither Guardiola, I want something easy and quick to manage in which I can create anything I want, and that it works well, without needing to be so exact and precise to work. Neither something like "play on high line, high LOE and high pressing or lose". 

Maybe this happens on future versions. I really hope so.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Tsuru

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Tsuru said:

I am not Klopp neither Guardiola, I want something easy and quick to manage in which I can create anything I want, and that it works well, without needing to be so exact and precise to work. Neither something like "play on high line, high LOE and high pressing or lose"

Well, I love FM so much precisely because it's not "easy" in the way you would like it to be. FM allows people to both learn a lot about real-life football tactics (as well as other elements of the game) and test their tactical knowledge. Provided one is patient enough and willing to learn. 

Therefore, I don't want FM to ever change in this respect. There are already enough mickey-mouse wannabe "football simulations" that are easy, so FM should always remain exactly what it is (as far as I am concerned). 

[Enzo_Francescoli]

17 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, I love FM so much precisely because it's not "easy" in the way you would like it to be. FM allows people to both learn a lot about real-life football tactics (as well as other elements of the game) and test their tactical knowledge. Provided one is patient enough and willing to learn. 

Therefore, I don't want FM to ever change in this respect. There are already enough mickey-mouse wannabe "football simulations" that are easy, so FM should always remain exactly what it is (as far as I am concerned). 

It is the best football management simulation available, but FM20 is nothing like real-life football. If anything, it is way too easy: you just have to go on an attacking mentality and max out your lines and pressing. People are winning multiple CL titles without ever learning anything about football tactics. Otherwise, what works and what doesn't is completely, utterly random.

Judging from the generally high quality of this series though, here's hoping that this edition was just an aberration.

[Experienced Defender]

27 minutes ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

It is the best football management simulation available, but FM20 is nothing like real-life football. If anything, it is way too easy: you just have to go on an attacking mentality and max out your lines and pressing. People are winning multiple CL titles without ever learning anything about football tactics

Exploit p'n'p tactics - and I am mentioning them because they match your description  - have always been successful in any iteration of the game, simply because the ME can never be perfect, no matter how good it otherwise is. But there are also numerous examples of people who are successful with normal and sensible tactics that absolutely make sense from the RL football perspective. So it's just a matter of one' personal choice and preference. 

After all, if you are sure that the attacking mentality coupled with maximum pressing and lines of defense and engagement is a simple recipe for success in FM, why are then people whose tactics contain all these elements regularly asking for help and advice here in the tactical forum? 

[Tsuru]

18 horas atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Well, I love FM so much precisely because it's not "easy" in the way you would like it to be. FM allows people to both learn a lot about real-life football tactics (as well as other elements of the game) and test their tactical knowledge. Provided one is patient enough and willing to learn. 

Therefore, I don't want FM to ever change in this respect. There are already enough mickey-mouse wannabe "football simulations" that are easy, so FM should always remain exactly what it is (as far as I am concerned). 

I don´t think it´s a matter of being "easy" or "hard", it´s just sometimes I feel myself playing a Fifa game - I have to be absolutely exact and precise in order for my tactics to work. In FM 20 sometimes I feel there is no balance, or your team wins everything like magic or loses with no chance. And I always feel the game lacks tools to help the manager improve his tactics and style of play, you have to guess more than be sure. But I know this is on purpose to make things a little bit harder and I don´t think this will ever change.

[Enzo_Francescoli]

21 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Exploit p'n'p tactics - and I am mentioning them because they match your description  - have always been successful in any iteration of the game, simply because the ME can never be perfect, no matter how good it otherwise is. But there are also numerous examples of people who are successful with normal and sensible tactics that absolutely make sense from the RL football perspective. So it's just a matter of one' personal choice and preference. 

After all, if you are sure that the attacking mentality coupled with maximum pressing and lines of defense and engagement is a simple recipe for success in FM, why are then people whose tactics contain all these elements regularly asking for help and advice here in the tactical forum? 

Most of the times because they don’t get enough possession for their liking, I would say.. 

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, Tsuru said:

I always feel the game lacks tools to help the manager improve his tactics and style of play, you have to guess more than be sure

I do agree that the game should be better designed - and in some cases more accurate (about team mentalities for example) - when it comes to in-game descriptions of what different things mean and do 

And yes - it is hard to figure a lot of things out without looking for additional info in this forum or elsewhere. 

But once you master all these initial unknowns, you can play FM pretty easily. You just need enough patience and determination to learn. 

7 hours ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

Most of the times because they don’t get enough possession for their liking, I would say.. 

Okay, if you think so 

[malkav]

Defensive football is definitely possible , and can be quite successful.  While certainly not the weakest team in Serie A , AC Milan are a team that require a bit of a squad overhaul. Using them as my main save this year i won the serie A title 5 times in a row from my first season using a counter attack low-block style . In most FM versions over the years ive always preferred tactics  that are more proactive and offensive with a high flying possession style  eg: Arsenal or Napoli styles of play , but this year wanted to try something different , and based my tactic off a meshing of ideals from Sacchi's Milan of the 80s and Simeone's Athletico , playing a defensively solid formation and using a lowblock + counter attack style . I setup mostly using a 4-4-1-1 , occasionally switching to 4-4-2 , and due to player performances over the past 5 seasons have transitioned into a permanent 4-4-2 formation , it took a couple seasons of transfers and tweaks to " perfect " . I spend the majority of a match on Cautious mentality , which is my tactics default , only switching to positive or attack on rare occasions , and often switching to defensive to close out the last 10-15 minutes of a game and wind the clock down. Using this i went my whole 3rd season unbeaten in the league and made it halfway into the next before losing to break the streak. The tactic is not without its flaws , and while its sometimes hard to tell if its a tactical problem or a lack of player quality , scoring more then a couple goals in a game playing this way can be hard , which is why I eventually settled on the 4-4-2 over the 4-4-1-1 , as I just wasnt getting the performance needed from the AMC and lone striker partnership. 

Successfully playing defensive football is much harder then attacking football , your strikers can have 50 shots in a game and miss them all , but as long as they score one or two then theoretically you can win the game and its fine , but your defenders can be perfect for 89 minutes and then have a melt down and let two goals in right at the end,  and loose you the game. So without the right players then your results are always going to be mixed playing in such a way , as your not playing pro-active football but rather reactive.

For the most part ive left the majority of instructions on their default ( standard ) setting , such as passing style ect. Cautious is fundamental to the style , keeping men behind the ball and waiting for the chance to make a quick break, using mostly quick direct types of passes , and maintain shape if the break doesnt look like happening. A high tempo is important , as the moment possession is won you want to go on the offensive , quickly and decisively. Any other instructions under the " possession  " tab are personal preference , but i also prefer to focus play through the middle , as combined with a standard width has players being positioned / working close together , which is a key fundamental part of Sacchi's milan tactic , and this helps to overload the opposition on the counter , playing a narrow sitting inverted winger on one side also helps keep play within the centre of the park . In transition the only keys are having " counter " and " regroup " selected. Counter of course means the majority of the team , apart from those set to a defensive mentality role , will go immediately on the offensive once the ball is won , while Regroup is integral to a low-block counter attack style. Without the ball your team will immediately retreat and return to their shape once the opposition start to attack , getting your team back into their 4-4 shape and congesting the space in the middle quickly . This leads to the " Out of possession " tab , where I use defend narrower , lower lines both of engagement and defensive line , combined with tight marking and high pressing. 

A low line of engagement means the team will be more fully consolidated into their defensive shape before engaging the opposition ( obviously this can be a problem vs smaller teams that arent actively attacking you , so a slightly more offensive tweak to the tactic is sometimes required as i mentioned earlier )  , combined with a low defensive line and a narrow defensive shape ,  in the 4-4-2 formation ,  creates a tight bank of players around / in front of your box . This leaves the opposition either having to play high crosses into the box , which having good tall CBs and a solid aerially adept keeper can usually deal with , or taking long shots , which again a good athletic keeper should be able to handle most of the time , thus resulting in half chances rather then them being able to create too many clear cut ones. Tight marking obviously is a given here , as playing a low-block means NO offside trap , and the two shouldnt actually be combined normally anyway. Using more urgent levels of pressing is also key , as while we do want to be putting up a solid defensive wall and trying to force the opponents to play through us , its not a catenaccio tactic , its a counter attacking one , so winning the ball back rather then just purely absorbing pressure is required.  The regroup and lower lines means that my team will first get into shape and restrict the space behind BEFORE engaging , thus not leaving too much space to be exploited if they fail to win the ball back . Using a stopper / cover CB partnership and a sweeper keeper also helps as it leaves very little open ground for your opponents to play into. 

In instances where you need to open up against a more passive opposition then simply a small tweak to your line positioning ,offensive width and passing directness and pass into space can be enough , while slowing the pace down and adding an overload and getting stuck in can further help to break down catenaccio style defenses. 

Winding the clock down is a combination of obviously turning up the time-wasting , but also slowing tempo , switching to defensive rather then cautious , and also doing things like " playing for set pieces " .  I genuinely wanted my style of play to emulate the Simeone dark arts style.

Getting the right players is important , improving my defenders was where the majority of my transfer funds went at first. Tall CBs with good mental stats , with pace being a luxury rather then a necessity. Wings in the first few seasons were mostly physical and well rounded players more suited to being wingbacks or full backs rather then technical attacking wingers. CMs are well rounded.  Good positioning , teamwork , determination , work-rate and stamina are key stats for my players. Strikers are tall and physical , with good technical stats , but average pace, as the ball is generally carried forwards by either the wingers or kessie as BBM , with a DLF ( Jonas Wind ) and Poacher ( Krystof Piatek ) striker partnership.   

[serbian]

Personally I avoid implementing a defensive tactic late in the game to protect 1-0, it almost always backfires, gives the opposition all the possession and we end up conceding - even if it is just the last 5 minutes.

[Genésio Nunes]

Em 30/04/2020 em 11:10, Experienced Defender disse:

The defensive line setting defines how high (or deep) your back-line will look to position themselves while you are in possession. Once you lose possession, they will look to adapt their positions and movement as best as they can to prevent the potential threat from an opposition counter-attack. So if you play with a higher DL, your defenders will potentially have to cover a greater distance to deal with danger in case of an opposition ball over the top. That's why attributes such as speed, anticipation, concentration and decisions matter more when you play on a higher line. 

Don't know if this answer is relative to FM20, but we have this description at FM21:

 

 

So, how is possible to say Defensive Line is relative to our possession, and not the opposite?

[ozilthegunner]

22 minutes ago, Genésio Nunes said:

Don't know if this answer is relative to FM20, but we have this description at FM21:

 

 

So, how is possible to say Defensive Line is relative to our possession, and not the opposite?

Yeah, given that the defensive line is set in the "Out of Possession" team instruction area, it'd be weird for it to be about how your d-line will position when you are in possession. 

Perhaps it affects that - how high your team is when the opponent has the ball in their own half may affect how high they are when you are in possession in the opponent's half (almost certainly does given that upping the defensive line makes you more vulnerable to balls over the top after losing possession).  But that isn't quite what it is in fact setting. Although perhaps it is a helpful way of thinking about it just because that may be the more important consideration in deciding where to set the d-line

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Genésio Nunes said:

Don't know if this answer is relative to FM20, but we have this description at FM21:

 

 

So, how is possible to say Defensive Line is relative to our possession, and not the opposite?

The defensive line setting influences the (relative) positioning of your back-line both in and out of possession. Like any other instruction, it is also affected by your team mentality.

[Chris2509]

This represents my thinking of the ME for a long time, but recently I started diving deeper into defensive play and have seen some success, mostly with a middle block, but some low block as well.

This was my CL campaign, playing a middle block (normal DL + lower LOE +deepish formation). Qualified from a very difficult group and reached the final with a good, but not an amazing squad by any means.

 

Next season I went a step further and occasionally used a low block.

Qualified again from a tough group with some impressive results.

The games against Celtic were a different story and a different tactic was used, but all the other ones went according to the plan.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Chris2509

[Jack722]

I think the reason why you might consider the lower defensive line a "lose now button" is because, a lot of the time in real life, it is. In fact, it is rarely used ever, and if someone from these forums claims that they finished top half in their league using a lower defensive line on a balanced to low mentality all game every game, they would have my respect, because i wouldn't even know where to start.

 

Let's take the game's definition of the defensive line for now

and let's see what a lower defensive line in a standard, balanced 442 looks like.

So, this is asking your defenders to stand just outside of the box when the opposition have the ball in their own half. Which teams do this in real life? Well you may assume that Sean Dyche's Burnley do this, especially away against big teams, because Burnley are for sure the premier league team most associated with the low block. Below is a screenshot of Burnley playing away against Manchester City. 

Look how high their line is. You can't even see the box in this photo because it isn't even anywhere close. This is actually so much more defensively solid than a low line previously shown due to the compactness that it creates, City would struggle to play their typicaly short passing game in this situation beause Burnley are so compact horizontally and vertically. When you think about it, they are so compact that you can't even replicate this structure in FM with a standard 442. You have to start to use wacky strikerless formations to achieve this compactness. This is how I would recreate Burnley's defensive structure from this picture in FM:

So then why does FM even include the low line, if it is hardly ever used? Because, it has its place. The low line can be used situationally to 'park the bus' and I mean to fully park the bus, when you know that you are going to be outplayed, and when either a 0-0 would feel like a win, or you are already winning. 

Let's take one of the most iconic defensive performances of all time. The second leg of the 2009/10 Champion's League semi final between Internazionale (white) and Barcelona. Inter won the first leg 3-1 at home, playing attacking football and pressing Barcelona up to their GK. Even during the second leg at the Camp Nou, they played some attacking football and pressed relatively high. It wasn't until Inter went down to 10 men in the first half, that Mourinho decided to park the bus.

Here is Inter's defensive structure late on in the game:

Even in this incredibly defensive performance, you can see that Inter's Dline is still a little further up than their own box (assuming the furthest player back is just about to get into position after a clearance). But you can see from here that this shape gives absolutely zero attacking threat, with only one player left forward to press the centrebacks and provide an outlet (although he even looks like he is running back into a deeper position.) Trying to park the bus like this late on in a game is one of the very few times where I would use a balanced low defenive line, and even then, you have to use non-conventional strikerless formations to achieve the correct level of compactness, as seen below:

*with an added third player in defensive midfield as Inter only had 10 men

Bear in mind that Inter still lost this second leg 1-0, so if this was a stand alone game, the strategy would've backfired, and Mourinho would've recieved intense criticism. But here it was a correct decision due to multiple reasons

• They were up by two goals
• They were down to 10 men
• They were away against one of the best teams in the history of football

So low line tactics do have their place in FM, it's just that the place is as a second or even a third tactic, with an incredibly bottom heavy formation, to be used when you would be delighted if the game finished with no more goals scored for either side.

 

[Falahk]

On 16/01/2021 at 14:33, Jack722 said:

I think the reason why you might consider the lower defensive line a "lose now button" is because, a lot of the time in real life, it is. In fact, it is rarely used ever, and if someone from these forums claims that they finished top half in their league using a lower defensive line on a balanced to low mentality all game every game, they would have my respect, because i wouldn't even know where to start.

On balanced and coutious a slightly lower line may work (but my advice would still be to leave it on default), but it's probably overkill to go deeper then the standard setting for defensive mentality, since much like you mention; it's better to defend in front of your own box, rather then inside of it

That being said, I have played extensively on lower mentalities (mostly coutious and defensive), sticking to the same tactic and done really well, so it can definitely work