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Everything posted by Jack722

  1. Watched about half of the livestream yesterday. I wouldn't be too concerned just yet about the continued success of the gegenpress tactic. We should find out pretty quickly once the beta comes out if you can still jut plugnplay it with any random players of any ability. I think that Sheffield United are a top Championship team with a large squad, so the gegenpress success across a limited number of games isn't too suprising. I rarely use gegenpress, so somebody can correct me if this is normal, but I did notice in the highlights that despite the instructions maxing out the pressing, the team were still dropping back into a midblock at times, which could be a result of the players deciding not to press at that moment due to tiredness / lack of a trigger. What I was certainly impressed with though, is the increased compactness of the defending teams, with attack duty strikers helping out the defensive team. I think even if the whole accuracy/innacuracy concept doesn't have as much of an effect as expected, the ability to defend in a more compact manner is going to go a huge way into improving deep defensive play and nerfing the overly attacking tactics for FM22. I'm a huge fan of the data hub as well, it looks really exciting. When it was first announced, I thought it was only really going to be a rebranding of the statistics that we have already and putting them in to one spot, but it's so much more than that. Overall I'm quite hyped for FM22. I liked FM21 a lot, and the only thing that really bothered me about it was how teams defend when not pressing high. A while ago I made a feature request about it, and while I doubt they looked at my specific post (since it was too recent) they've changed it in the exact way that I was hoping they would, so I appreciate the effort made
  2. Having seen the new FM22 livestream, it seems as though defending deep is going to be much easier and realistic this year! It looks as though the attacking forwards help more to block off passing lanes into midfield while a CMd paired with a CMs will roughly stay more in line with each other. So hopefully in FM22 we can just set up a 442 in the way we'd like to attack, and the defence should take care of itself.
  3. They are quite different. Watch some of a full game where you're dominating the ball and switch between a 4411 / 4231. An AML has a few significant differences to an ML. In attack, the AML will move narrower, more closely supporting the striker, whereas an ML will hold the width for much longer. The easiest way to see the difference irl is to look at how Pep Guardiola uses his wingers (Grealish + Mahrez) at City, vs how Klopp uses his wingers (Salah + Mane) at Liverpool. If you divide the pitch into: Wing / Half space / Centre / Half space / Wing, ML (Grealish) spends most of their time on the wing whereas AML (Mane) spends most of their time in the half spaces. This means that a tactic with AML/AMR will normally require attacking fullbacks to provide width, and more defensively minded midfielders to cover the fullbacks, while not invading the space of the more narrow wide forwards. Think about how much more defensive CM's of Henderson and Wijnaldum are over De Bruyne and Bernardo Silva. In defence, the AML/R won't track back as far and as often as a ML/R. This doesn't always mean that a 433 is less solid defensively than a 4141 though, since if you have hard working and solid CM's and DM's, your midfield will be able to shuttle out wide to help cover the space in front of the fullbacks from time to time. This is why I basically never use a 4231 CM anymore.. The 4231 DM seems much more consistent with real life, and has the DM's covering the space in front of the fullbacks much better than CM's.
  4. Yeah I see. You can play a 433 with wingers and ask your whole team to play extremely wide and I'm still pretty sure that your wingers will play mostly in the half spaces when probing the box. It's just how that formation works in FM (and mostly irl). Feel free to try it with a 433 though, and it easily could work, it's just not something I think makes a lot of sense. It's easy to get caught up in possession numbers, but my advice would be to just ignore it unless you start getting bad results, you can still dominate the game, you might just see the other team passing between their centrebacks quite a lot while not doing anything with the ball. Might be worth trying a 532 then if the 433 doesn't get your CM performing as you'd like.
  5. I normally use mezzalas over CM's though, but they do a pretty similar job in this case imo.
  6. I think the most important part to consider is the formation. As @CARRERA said above, the required attributes are all highlighted by the game, which can show you whether a player can pull off the role or not. What you want is a formation that allows a centre midfielder space to break forward into, while not having to cover large spaces in defence. IMO the two best formations I can think of for this off the top of my head are the 532 and 4141. The 532, despite normally having attacking wingbacks, has two other CM's and 3 CB's to help defend and give the CMa the freedom to get forward. Only having two forwards as well allows room for the extra midfielder to break into space, to make a sort of 5212 formation. Whereas in a 4141, your wingers stay wider, allowing your fullbacks to be more defensive, this means that with the protection of fullbacks and a DM, your midfielder again has the license to get further forward. Here is a goal scored by my CMa (no.29) in a 4141, which I believe is the sort of thing you are hoping to achieve. You can see that the right winger (10) holds the width, allowing the right back (24) to stay further back. The width from the right winger is also what causes the opposition left back (27) to stay that one step further out, which opens up the channel for my midfielder to move in to. If you tried the same thing in, for example, 433, it would be more difficult. You can see below that in this formation, the wingers pinch in much narrower in build up, which not only closes that channel that my midfielder moved in to previously, but it also means that the fullbacks now have to get further forward to give width for my attack, giving the midfielder extra defensive responsibility. In defense as well, since the AML/R wingers (20, 10) don't track back as much as ML/R wingers, your CM's naturally need to be harder working and better defensively, in order to help out the full backs. Whereas obviously in a 4141, you defend in to lines of 4 plus a DM in between, meaning your central midfielders have much less space to cover and don't need to put in as much of a defensive shift.
  7. I've had reasonable success with a low block in FM21. I play a few touch saves to experiment with different tactics, and while I haven't won the league or anything, I've overachieved the board expectation using a combination of a low block tactic for all games against the big six, and a mid block for the rest of the games. I think if you actually want to recreate a low block from irl, you have to use a low dline otherwise you won't be defending deep enough. I don't think it's right to claim that a tactic using intense pressing or a higher / standard line is a low block. Just look how deep Chelsea were defending against liverpool after the red card a few weeks back. They were basically on the edge of their own box the whole time while restricted Liverpool to half chances at most. This is the preset that I use:
  8. That positioning looks closer to AML/R to me. Try inverted wingers and set them to sit narrower If needed. Don't think you'll be able to do that with two 10s
  9. Yes I agree I notice that the possession numbers in a 4141 are never as high as a 433, which is due to the poor high pressing. But I still manage to get results using the formation. And for me it's more important that we get results and see our in-possession shape look good than get high possession numbers, so it doesn't bother me so much.
  10. Looks good to me. Are your IF's some of your better players? Because the IF is naturally a higher mentality role, so on attack duty it could lead the player basically doing whatever he wants and trying shots / through balls / dribbles more than you'd like a lower ability player to do. Also the long shots could be a result of the wingbacks not getting up high enough to support and stretching the opposition defence enough to make gaps. Otherwise I can't tell based on this image
  11. I have my own low block 'preset' which I use for tough games and when I want to see out a win. Tried it on a couple of touch saves with mid table sides and my record against the big six was like 2W 3D 1L or something like that. Basically you want a flat formation with at least 2 banks of 4 (442,532,541 etc) And then lower dline, lower loe, lower pressing, tighter marking, regroup. Then leave pretty much everything else blank. Only leave 1 or 0 forwards on attack duty. And the attacking forward ideally should be good at holding up the ball.
  12. I think the big gap and red squares scare people when thinking about a 4231DM. Personally wouldn't use two defensive DM's though. Really it's not that bad, I don't really adjust anything when I use it. You don't even need CM's to advance up the field either, because the front 4 will occupy the half spaces and centre. One supporting DM does a really good job of progressing the ball and linking with the CAM imo
  13. Yeah I basically only ever use a 4231DM now instead of 4231CM. feels much more like an irl 4231 if you watch full matches. Also the only way to get Natural width in these formations is to have attacking fullbacks. So it makes much more sense to have a double pivot to cover the wingbacks.
  14. Really really great reply. I agree with everything from the real life comparisons to the idea of having saved tactics for different situations. I had actually started writing about the 4231 / 4411 within this post, but decided to delete it since I found that I was repeating myself a lot while simultaneously writing about about a different thing somehow. I find though that when watching real life games, the 4231 seems to more represent a 4231DM in FM, particuarly Manchester United's. While a 4411 uses CM's. I'd encourage you to do your own anlysis on it, if not I may get round to it in the future. Also speaking of Guardiola's 4141 at Man City with the inverted wingbacks, did you ever try to replicate it in FM? I had a go with dual Mezzalas in midfield, and while the attacking shape looked spot on, we could barely score, and I couldn't quite put my finger on why. So i've mostly stuck to a Mourinho Chelsea style 4141 with fullbacks and only one very attacking CM.
  15. Pretty sure Petagna is a big target man.. In that case I'm not sure you've chosen roles that fit your team very well, Because Havertz and Ziyech seem like players who want to come deep to look for the ball and make something happen, rather than pacey runners. Switching the F9 to a TMa can make Petagna occupy the two centrebacks with his big presence, and allow more space for Hazard and Ziyech to get on the ball. It would also give you a better target in the box.
  16. Disagree, if you're looking to sit back, concede possession and hit on the break, counters get triggered based on how much the opposition over commit. As long as you're not on a defensive mentality or lower, you should get plenty of counter attacks if you set up right defensively. Setting up to hit on the break is very different to fast, direct, attacking fotball.
  17. I had this with Icardi at Inter a few FM's ago. He literally went a whole season missing over half his penalties and missing 1v1s basically every game. i think the only goals he scored were a few penalties and headers from corners. And he had some of the best composure, penalties and finishing attributes in the whole game. I ended up selling him since he was wanted by a few clubs. But my advice would be not to focus on tactics. It seems like you're just incredibly unlucky, and you might just need to drop Kane, or talk to him, or slam him in the press conferences. This has happened to me 3 or 4 times after playing hours and hours in FM, and trust me, you just know when it's not the tactic and 100% the player. Also had it with a player with 20 free kicks, went from scoring 5 a season to not even getting close to scoring in the next 3 seasons.
  18. Mentality vs role and duty selection is always a bit confusing I find. I've asked about it on the quick answers thread a while back, but I think you might disagree with the response I got, and I'm still not convinced myself. Currently, I'm unsure whether I should read more into the role descriptions, or look at the inidivdual mentalities, to decide who's going to be running forward and playing risky passes. If you're playing supporting fullbacks in a balanced system, but then decide that you're happy with the result and what to shut up shop, would you just select "very defensive" and rely on the individual mentality change to stop the fullbacks advancing into dangerous positions? Or should you also change their individual duties to defend, so that they follow the role description of "staying in line with the centrebacks". At the moment, I do a bit of both (generally have more defensive duties when playing a defensive mentality) but looking at your use of the mentality calculator has me thinking that changing both of these options both has me doing a redundant task and / or leaves me being more defensive than needed. I think the general response I had before was that it is still worth changing duties with mentality as each duty has their own individual instructions.
  19. in a 433, the wide forwards (even if they are set as wingers on an extremely wide system) will always move narrower into the halfspaces during the final third, so Pepe won't keep his width as you might expect. Also an AP will typically hunt for the ball, so if you want Odegaard a bit wider in the halfspace, it's probably better to use a mezzala. If you want Pepe to stay wider throughout, you whould probably move him back to the midfield line, but this will give you an assymetric formation which could be dodgy in defence, but I'm not sure. It's all a balancing act really.
  20. I don't think it's necessary to use a carilero in this formation, since that IIRC they are used to cover for wide players, which you don't need to do here. For the striker, if you are unsure, it's best to use an AF since that they are your typical focal-point sort of player who assists and scores. But it really depends on the players you have and the instructions. For the goalkeeper it also depends on who you have.
  21. The other two things I have to add is that Perhaps the line of engagement could be linked to inital striker positions? I feel like that, for a tactic with much lower line of engagement , for example, could see completely different positioning of forwards, where they work harder to block off passing lanes into the midfield, whereas higher line of engagements would see them step up and press centrebacks. Currently all the line of engagement does as far as I'm aware, is decide when players step out of position to press, which doesn't directly affect compactness. I've realised that strikers generally take up poor positions, such as below: Here no.8 can easily pass the ball into midfield to no.44 without much challenge at all, basically leaving me playing with 9 men. Whereas using shadow strikers, such as above, they take up much more compact and intelligent positions to block off the pass into midfield. Now No.8 has to go wide or back to the keeper. So I'm thinking that all strikers, on whatever duty, should take up positions such as the current shadow strikers do, if you are using a much lower line of engagement. This way it would actually be possible to play a mid/low block without conceding far too many shots or completely sacrificing your attack. 2. All players in the same strata should take up positions on the same horizontal line. The only time we see that 4132 shape as mentioned above should be when you select a DM. Obvioulsy attacking players may take longer to track back, and a defensive player may hold their position for longer before decided to step out and press, but the general settled positioning should be along the same horizontal line.
  22. All good solutions, thanks for contributing. Absolutely agree with (1.) Lots of teams irl still leave players up top during defence, whether to conserve energy for better attacking players, or to be a threat on the counter. Although, I still think that better positions for attacking players could be taken up, such as slightly deeper, to avoid a little poacher being dominated by two CB's when recieving a long pass as he's so far away from the rest of the team. Having the pressing forward (A) still tracking back and taking up defensive positions as well makes a lot of sense, since my understanding is that the ideal pressing forward would be slightly limited on the ball, but is able to put a shift in for the team and just be a nuisance to the opposition. It would also make the role more different to the current Advanced Forward, since I feel they can be quite similar if you just increase the pressing and tackling of the AF. Not 100% sure what you mean on (2.) but I think it's pretty similar to (1.) I think that (3.) could be a little too complicated. I'd be all for different out of / in possession instructions or tactics, but I'm aware that it might have to be a big overhaul, and there's already lots to think about in the game especially for more casual players. I also think that this specific issue could be solved in a more simple way.
  23. Interesting. I haven't ever tried a WTM but it seems like it could work well. I've also had some success with a 433 midblock and slightly more urgent pressing like you. But most of the time I used it (before watching more football irl and the FM ME) I realised that pressing high almost always was as successful, if not more, even if you didn't have a team suited to it. That way I was really threatening on the counter, but it is a bit risky to use if you are not a strong side, as it's pretty easy to either lose your counter attacking threat by having the wingers dragged backwards, or to get overloaded on the wings. I realised that my wingers normally got caught in no man's land under sustained pressure.. not fully commiting to tracking back nor taking up great counter positions.
  24. Here's what I'd do in FM as simply as possible 433 Attacking wingbacks to provide width and crosses Defensive DM (as opposed to a Regista or other supporting role) to cover the wingbacks Supporting CM's to control the ball and safely supply the forwards Use of false 9 since the wide forwards can easily be used as inside forwards to be the main goalscorers TI's Aggressive / high pressing combined with playing out of defence will help to control the ball and dominate the game 4141 More traditional fullbacks since that the width can now be provided by the wingers. FB's can easily be more attacking or defensive based on who you play. DM is more flexible since there is less space to cover, could be a variety of roles depending on who you play One very aggresive midfielder to link up with the lone striker One more supporting midfielder to maintain numbers in midfield Use of an attacking lone forward CFa, TMa or AFa is what i'd go for. A poacher may get too isolated, and a supporting striker without anyone else attacking the box may be too easy to defend against. TI's Best to use shorter passing since a long ball to a lone striker may be demanding too much of him.
  25. Hi @cocoadavid That was very well written so thanks. This was something I was already aware of, and as someone who likes to stay away from top teams, I reguarly use mid blocks and low blocks, it's super frustrating when you either have to choose sacrificing your attack or your defensive shape. I read the opening post a while ago and have only skimmed through the comments so sorry if this has been mentioned already. But I think that defending like a 'real' 442, or any formation for that matter, should be the game's default, rather than forcing you to bend over backwards to make players do the basics well. Such as strikers not hanging out by the halfway line and midfielders not vacating position. I just opened a thread talking about this in the feature requests, so if you or anyone else are interested in sharing your thoughts, here's the link.
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