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Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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19 hours ago, diddydaddydoddy said:

@JordanMillward_1 Are you playing Liverpool a la Klopps tactics? If so, I wouldn’t mind seeing your set up. I’m trying to be like us in real life but struggling with Mané and Salah scoring regularly.

Just on my way home from work, so I'll post a screenshot of the tactics I'm using when I'm on my PC in about 15-20 minutes.

EDIT: @diddydaddydoddy @themadsheep2001 - Here you go:
sO6HhXH.png

Partially rotated due to injuries at present, and don't have any personal instructions, though I'm looking at that at present, as well as Mane and Firmino's roles (I sometimes shift Mane to an Inverted Winger (A) and Firmino to  CF(S)).

And here are the results from the last couple of months with this save where I settled on the tactic and wanted to see how it went:

5wxEUAD.png

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22 minutes ago, andysafc said:

Honestly i have tried everything, sometimes i see things that just don't work and i am ok with that. But generally i think when you are creating more than your opponent you are on the right track. I have been through the tactics forum and tried to implement as many tips. On  previous patches i generally felt when it was not working i had an idea why. But not on this patch.

It sounds like you just need a tweak somewhere. Maybe a player role? Hard to know.

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I feel you need to watch your games in more detail rather than using the statistics as the sole way you determine whether your team is performing or not. I used to be in that trap myself before I came to understand that match statistics are meaningless without context. As for the assistants advice, well, it's pretty hopeless but is no impediment to being successful in the game as you have proven with the success you had pre-beta patch.

Also, you seem to have stumbled into a major peril of using downloaded tactics (albeit with slight alterations). When things start to go wrong, you can be left up s*** creek without a paddle as you have little understanding of the tactic and no insight into how to adapt it to the circumstances you find yourself in during a game.

Seeing things go against you in a match (for e.g. having shot after shot and not scoring) and doing nothing about it is poor management in my view and laying all the blame onto the ME (which undeniably has issues...it's a beta after all) achieves nothing except frustration and annoyance on your part. 

Besides, if playing the game is engendering feelings of hatred towards it then maybe it's time to put it down and do something else?

All the best

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This current ME beta patch update (or whatever it's called) is working pretty good for me. Improvement all round. 

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I think regardless of the ME, if you notice the same thing happening over and over again, that you don’t want to happen, you need to change something.

I’ve spent 6 seasons honing a tactic that, finally, is playing how I want it to.... and I’ve done the “blatantly we’re the better team, why are my ST’s missing so many chances?” thing.

Stats can be misleading. Just ask Pep this year.

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really curious to see your tactic

maybe people can help

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Tactic.thumb.png.3d454e9607a457ed39dfa31725000cc3.png

 

My own tactic is normally based off this, or i may push the wide players up to the AML/AMR and central the striker. I think Sunderland has a good squad to suit these positions.

Edited by andysafc

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I have sympathy with your sentiment OP.. but it all falls down for me when I consider the simple fact that the AI works with the same tools as we do.. so if Oxford are scoring with that sort of freedom.. there is no reason why you can't either, particulartly with a stronger squad.. 

 

The way you are speaking is almost like you consider the AI to have an advantage of some sort... which, most definitely, is not the case.

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Why are their no sounds in the menu when you click around? Also can you add sort of Simciy background music?

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7 minutes ago, Welshace said:

I have sympathy with your sentiment OP.. but it all falls down for me when I consider the simple fact that the AI works with the same tools as we do.. so if Oxford are scoring with that sort of freedom.. there is no reason why you can't either, particulartly with a stronger squad.. 

 

The way you are speaking is almost like you consider the AI to have an advantage of some sort... which, most definitely, is not the case.

Not really. What i mean is FM used to be a game where you could implement your own ideas and work around that. But now i think you have to understand how SI think (plenty on here try to help). I liked it when i saw why it wasn't working and tweaked myself. I just think this ME does not play like that.  Maybe to be successful with this ME you need to spend much more time in the forums than i do.

Edited by andysafc

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Just now, andysafc said:

Not really. What i mean is FM used to be a game where you could implement your own ideas and work around that. But now i think you have to understand how SI think (plenty on here try to help). I liked it when i saw why it wasn't working and tweaked myself. I just think this ME does not play like that.  

My first suggestion would be not to use user created tactics... and most definitely not knaps... as while they are very successful, they are overly complicated with PI's etc on the whole..

 

I would literally go back to basics.. set your team with a simple tactic you think will fit or the way you want to play.. and tweak as you watch the matches and notice weaknesses that need addressing...

 

 

I play the most bog standard tactics around and find much joy in small tweaks to deal with weak areas.. to the point where my tactic is working as intended..

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Downloading tactics for me is rare, as i said previously i only do it to see how other people are having success then try to implement it into my own tactic. I see no point in playing consistently with anyone else's tactic.

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20.3 is coming soon; will have a modification of current ME (20.2)

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2 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Just on my way home from work, so I'll post a screenshot of the tactics I'm using when I'm on my PC in about 15-20 minutes.

EDIT: @diddydaddydoddy @themadsheep2001 - Here you go:
sO6HhXH.png

Partially rotated due to injuries at present, and don't have any personal instructions, though I'm looking at that at present, as well as Mane and Firmino's roles (I sometimes shift Mane to an Inverted Winger (A) and Firmino to  CF(S)).

And here are the results from the last couple of months with this save where I settled on the tactic and wanted to see how it went:

 

The fact that a tactic like this works show how broken is the ME. It's not even logical.

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1 hour ago, andysafc said:

Tactic.thumb.png.3d454e9607a457ed39dfa31725000cc3.png

 

My own tactic is normally based off this, or i may push the wide players up to the AML/AMR and central the striker. I think Sunderland has a good squad to suit these positions.

I'm not a tactical expert by any means and I have given up on this years game, you would probably be better posting this in the Tactic forum, but IMO:

 

You are too static up front. Where is the movement coming from? You have hold shape instruction along with work ball into box, shorter passing and hardly any of your roles in forward area's are 'fluid' roles. The B2B has roam hard coded (I think), but other than that I don't see where you are dragging the opposition out of shape. You need to move the opposition defenders imo.

Also, to me, you have high line of engagement, high defensive line, extremely urgent press and counter press. I think that is too much. I would guess (again perhaps I am wrong) unless you win the ball within one or 2 phases after giving it away your players are out of a decent defensive position and the opposition can exploit this fact.

 

And, just a personal note, but I hate playing with 2 x ball playing defenders. Too many Hollywood type balls for me, if you have play out of defence I believe you can get away with playing 2 regular defenders who will play it simple to full-backs or midfielders without being stupid about it.

 

Just my two pennies worth.

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And one more thing

Even that i dont think this is the worst ME ever , im sick wating to January to get decent ME
 

in FM 21 i will not pre order the game like usual for 10000 % 

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4 minutes ago, davehanson said:

I'm not a tactical expert by any means and I have given up on this years game, you would probably be better posting this in the Tactic forum, but IMO:

 

You are too static up front. Where is the movement coming from? You have hold shape instruction along with work ball into box, shorter passing and hardly any of your roles in forward area's are 'fluid' roles. The B2B has roam hard coded (I think), but other than that I don't see where you are dragging the opposition out of shape. You need to move the opposition defenders imo.

Also, to me, you have high line of engagement, high defensive line, extremely urgent press and counter press. I think that is too much. I would guess (again perhaps I am wrong) unless you win the ball within one or 2 phases after giving it away your players are out of a decent defensive position and the opposition can exploit this fact.

 

And, just a personal note, but I hate playing with 2 x ball playing defenders. Too many Hollywood type balls for me, if you have play out of defence I believe you can get away with playing 2 regular defenders who will play it simple to full-backs or midfielders without being stupid about it.

 

Just my two pennies worth.

Thank you for your two pennies worth.... I will look into your suggestions and see if it helps in anyway 

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3 minutes ago, GOODNAME said:

And one more thing

Even that i dont think this is the worst ME ever , im sick wating to January to get decent ME
 

in FM 21 i will not pre order the game like usual for 10000 % 

I agree I am sick of waiting until January every year until they settle on a final ME. No point buying any earlier as the same thing happens every year, has for the last 25 years.

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17 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

The fact that a tactic like this works show how broken is the ME. It's not even logical.

Please then, @Tetsuro P12, as the expert, explain how it isn't logical and shouldn't work. I eagerly await your insights.

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10 minutes ago, andysafc said:

Thank you for your two pennies worth.... I will look into your suggestions and see if it helps in anyway 

What would you suggest for movement up front? A DLF on support to wander more?

my d-line should not be that high, maybe I was testing around that time. I don’t like that high and had changed it back on my copy.

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14 minutes ago, sorrenmills said:

Looks like a perfectly cromulent tactic to me. 

Thanks! In terms of player movement and location, they're broadly where I want them to be, and are recycling the ball and keeping possession how I want (these are from my latest match, a 4-0 victory against Wolves):

48oIx01.pngnRWgFmd.png

Additionally, overall, I'm getting a decent variety of goals, but relatively few from long distance, and a relatively equal number of assists from crossing and through balls (this is for the first half of my current season):

NVOHIsf.pngw9XgFb6.png

They're broadly playing how I expect Liverpool to play, and that's a good thing. I'm still working on Firmino mostly (as I'd like him to drop deeper, and I'm trying out different roles to see which does that best), but otherwise I'm very happy with the tactic in terms of how much it looks like Klopp's set-up for Liverpool, and how it's being acted out in the ME.

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2 minutes ago, emil_sbn said:

@JordanMillward_1 Have you tried him in a false nine role?

Aye, I'd tried both DLF attack and support, and he hasn't moved how I want him to (he rarely holds up the ball, he is almost always moving with it while others move into better positions IRL), so I'm trying him out as a false nine now to see how he goes with it. Happy to post results once he's had a chance to get used to it, it's just very hard to get one role to fit Firmino, because he's a very unique style of striker IRL.

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27 minutes ago, sorrenmills said:

Looks like a perfectly cromulent tactic to me. 

Quite. If people think it's aggressive they might want to look at actual Liverpool pass maps....

It's probably pretty demanding, but then he's playing with a side designed for it of course...

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4 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Quite. If people think it's aggressive they might want to look at actual Liverpool pass maps....

It's probably pretty demanding, but then he's playing with a side designed for it of course...

I also rotate quite frequently and use, especially on the older players who won't develop much more through training, the "rest" option to ensure they're fit again for a match 3 days later.

Just trying out the F9 position for Firmino, and he's dropping as deep as I'd like him to now. I also just got a lovely counter and goal, very much in the vein of the Salah goal against United (except against Villa following a free kick of theirs).

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Just now, JordanMillward_1 said:

I also rotate quite frequently and use, especially on the older players who won't develop much more through training, the "rest" option to ensure they're fit again for a match 3 days later.

Just trying out the F9 position for Firmino, and he's dropping as deep as I'd like him to now. I also just got a lovely counter and goal, very much in the vein of the Salah goal against United (except against Villa following a free kick of theirs).

Lovely. I use Milik as a Roaming false 9. He's a brilliant all round striker and probably one of the best you can get for a reasonable price. 

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5 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Aye, I'd tried both DLF attack and support, and he hasn't moved how I want him to (he rarely holds up the ball, he is almost always moving with it while others move into better positions IRL), so I'm trying him out as a false nine now to see how he goes with it. Happy to post results once he's had a chance to get used to it, it's just very hard to get one role to fit Firmino, because he's a very unique style of striker IRL.

Firmino is so versatile so I think you could play him in all kinds of roles. If you want him to hold the ball more I´d suggest the pressing forward on support.

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15 minutes ago, emil_sbn said:

Firmino is so versatile so I think you could play him in all kinds of roles. If you want him to hold the ball more I´d suggest the pressing forward on support.

Cheers Emil, I appreciate the suggestions. I think I'll have to try him out on a few of the different roles on support, see which flows best with him.

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1 hour ago, GOODNAME said:

And one more thing

Even that i dont think this is the worst ME ever , im sick wating to January to get decent ME
 

in FM 21 i will not pre order the game like usual for 10000 % 

What you mean with waiting till January for decent ME?

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I think you should focus less on the numbers that don't count. You don't win games with more shots on the goal. You need to score goals and only 1 more then your opponent.

 

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28 minutes ago, Forza#8903 said:

What you mean with waiting till January for decent ME?

Traditionally FM is always a bit dodgy on release (or at least the ME). There is always a final patch after the January transfer window which tends to sort any issues out completely. There have definitely been times in the past where the ME has been terrible on release and they've had to patch it heavily and for a while I'd only buy the game after it went on sale around Christmas. I've been playing FM20 since beta release day on the same save and not had so many problems (at least since they patched wingers shooting from impossible angles) but seems there has been a lot of discontent within the community.

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58 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

I also rotate quite frequently and use, especially on the older players who won't develop much more through training, the "rest" option to ensure they're fit again for a match 3 days later.

Just trying out the F9 position for Firmino, and he's dropping as deep as I'd like him to now. I also just got a lovely counter and goal, very much in the vein of the Salah goal against United (except against Villa following a free kick of theirs).

Lol see how much  brown are the crowd 

Pathetic 

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1 hour ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Please then, @Tetsuro P12, as the expert, explain how it isn't logical and shouldn't work. I eagerly await your insights.

Mezzala is a role invented to replace the winger, but need to be sustained by many midfielders (like another two in line plus a DM). Both BBM and Mezzala leave their position and should leave you open to counterattack, no matter the DM. Also two IFs? And shorter passing with two IFs? An higher line with a covering defender (breaking offside)? Lower Tempo with two IFs? It just isn't logical. Also with that player placement the last you should do is to play out of defence. The ME allows you to do it, but would it work in real life? I seriously doubt it. Looks to be my last reply. :D

Edited by Tetsuro P12

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12 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Mezzala is a role invented to replace the winger, but need to be sustained by many midfielders (like another two in line plus a DM). Both BBM and Mezzala leave their position and should leave you open to counterattack, no matter the DM. Also two IF? And shorter passing with two IFs? An higher line with a covering defender (breaking offside)? Lower Tempo with two IFs? It just isn't logical.

This is fundamentally wrong:

1) KDB plays as one for City (So does Keita for Liverpool), but they actually use the wide player the Mezzala and to overload the space, see the positioning that KDB takes up. Its what allows them to have basically 5 attackers, still supported by a "midfield" of 3 

2) It's actually no guarantee they leave open, if you're taking care of the ball, winning it back in the right areas, or committing fouls high up the pitch (see both Liverpool and City

3) Two inside fowards? Yes, also see City, and plenty of other teams in Europe

4) Shorter passing has nothing to do with directly picking Inside forwards

5) A higher line does not necessitate playing the offside trap, especially if you're willing and able to win 1 on 1 battles. Cover defenders don't always break offside traps either

6) Lower tempo has nothing to do with directly picking Inside forwards

 

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He also has an Attacking mentality as a base, so even with the shorter/slower instructions he is still playing relatively fast and direct, simply due to how high those settings inherently are with his mentality.

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I'm also not using a higher line for my defenders, only the attackers (to keep the likes of Salah and Mane further up the pitch), and I'm not using an offside trap, so I'm starting to doubt @Tetsuro P12 actually understands either what my tactic is doing, or FM tactics in general.

The way I've found using an Attacking mentality, along with lower tempo and shorter passes, all interact with each other is that the team will recycle the ball a lot in defence and midfield until a gap opens up (retaining possession quite nicely), and once a killer pass or a gap in the line opens up, the attacking players overload the final third and go for a quick score (with the 2 defenders and DM DLP sitting back almost like a 3 back, and the BBM hanging on the edge of the box to go after an opposing player if they manage a tackle and come away with the ball), and if they're not able to score then, the midfield gets hold of the ball again and starts over with the sideways passes to keep possession until another gap opens.

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1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

This is fundamentally wrong:

1) KDB plays as one for City (So doesn Keita for Liverpool, but they actually use the wide player the Mezzala and to overload the space.

2) It's actually no guarantee they leave open, if you're taking care of the ball, winning it back in the right areas, or committing fouls high up the pitch (see both Liverpool and City

3) Two inside fowards? Yes, also see City, and plenty of other teams in Europe

4) Shorter passing has nothing to do with directly picking Inside forwards

5) A higher line does not necessitate playing the offside trap, especially if you're willing and able to win 1 on 1 battles. Cover defenders don't always break offside traps either

6) Lower tempo has nothing to do with directly picking Inside forwards

 

1. I don't understood what are you referring to, Mezzala is a precise role.

2. It's a guarantee, you are playing with three attackers and a DM (and two WB?!) so that defensive phase is definitely weak.

3. Eventually I don't translate well IF. I translate it as 'Seconda Punta', not 'External Attacker' (so a support role for the striker, not an external attacker... that's a more offensive winger). If the IF isn't a Seconda Punta how do you translate that?

4. With many attackers you want to overturn fastly (counterattacking), that's not done with shorter passing and lower tempo.

5. An higher line make your defence more exposed so you need offside trap, if you break the line a forward insert himself behind the two defenders.

6. Already replied.

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3 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

I'm also not using a higher line for my defenders, only the attackers (to keep the likes of Salah and Mane further up the pitch), and I'm not using an offside trap, so I'm starting to doubt @Tetsuro P12 actually understands either what my tactic is doing, or FM tactics in general.

The way I've found using an Attacking mentality, along with lower tempo and shorter passes, all interact with each other is that the team will recycle the ball a lot in defence and midfield until a gap opens up (retaining possession quite nicely), and once a killer pass or a gap in the line opens up, the attacking players overload the final third and go for a quick score (with the 2 defenders and DM DLP sitting back almost like a 3 back, and the BBM hanging on the edge of the box to go after an opposing player if they manage a tackle and come away with the ball), and if they're not able to score then, the midfield gets hold of the ball again and starts over with the sideways passes to keep possession until another gap opens.

My Man City replication does similar, though I press overall less than you as I use a split block and dirty fouling higher up the pitch

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5 hours ago, craigcwwe said:

Anyone else seeing pretty much every penalty saved or missed? 

Had 7 pens in just over half a season and scored one. 

Every penalty get saved by GK, if the score is 0-0 1-1 2-2 and My players score very penalty when i am leading by 2-0 or more

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1 hour ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Thanks! In terms of player movement and location, they're broadly where I want them to be, and are recycling the ball and keeping possession how I want (these are from my latest match, a 4-0 victory against Wolves):

48oIx01.pngnRWgFmd.png

Additionally, overall, I'm getting a decent variety of goals, but relatively few from long distance, and a relatively equal number of assists from crossing and through balls (this is for the first half of my current season):

NVOHIsf.pngw9XgFb6.png

They're broadly playing how I expect Liverpool to play, and that's a good thing. I'm still working on Firmino mostly (as I'd like him to drop deeper, and I'm trying out different roles to see which does that best), but otherwise I'm very happy with the tactic in terms of how much it looks like Klopp's set-up for Liverpool, and how it's being acted out in the ME.

could u post the key passses map from that match

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OK Guys- this is the feedback thread and is not the thread for in-depth tactical discussions.  By all means have these discussions but not in this thread please, as normal feedback will get lost.

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