Is this the worst performance from "big" footballing nations at a World Cup?

[Heartwork]

 

Pot 1	Pot 2	Pot 3	Pot 4
Russia (65) (hosts)  Germany (1)  Brazil (2)  Portugal (3)  Argentina (4)  Belgium (5)  Poland (6)  France (7)	Spain (8)  Peru (10)   Switzerland (11)  England (12)  Colombia (13)  Mexico (16)  Uruguay (17)  Croatia (18)	Denmark (19)  Iceland (21)  Costa Rica (22)  Sweden (25)  Tunisia (28)  Egypt (30)  Senegal (32)  Iran (34)	Serbia (38)  Nigeria (41)  Australia (43)  Japan (44)  Morocco (48)  Panama (49)  South Korea (62)  Saudi Arabia (63)

Looking at the rankings of teams that have gone out (at the time of the end of qualifying, October 2017, when teams were seeded) a lot have teams have already gone out who should well have been considered favourites to win. Brazil could still quite realistically crash out to Mexico tomorrow too. Have we ever been at this stage of a World Cup with so few Pot 1 "big" teams failing to progress? At this rate I'm starting to think it's Japan's to lose, as the only teams left who have previously won the World Cup are Brazil France, England and Uruguay so it's feeling more and more likely that we could end up with a brand new World Champion at the end of this.

EDIT: OK Japan won't win. But Sweden are now the only Pot 3 team left.

[georginho_juventusygr]

Why do you hate England?

[Heartwork]

I never said I do?

[georginho_juventusygr]

34 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

so it's feeling more and more likely that we could end up with a brand new World Champion at the end of this.

You hate England.

[Heartwork]

1 minute ago, georginho_juventusygr said:

You hate England.

You need to write for the Daily Mail.

[PMLF]

This WC is a bit like 2002.

[CFuller]

Don't forget that 2002 was a nightmare for a lot of the established teams.

Of the eight teams in Pot A, only Brazil, Germany, Spain and co-hosts South Korea made it past the second round. Argentina, France and Italy won two matches between them.

Also, of the seven teams who had won the title up to that point, only Brazil, Germany and England were still alive at the Quarter Finals.

Amongst the unseeded teams that were ranked highly going into the tournament, Portugal went out in the first round and Mexico in the second.

[georginho_juventusygr]

4 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

You need to write for the Daily Mail.

Heartwork Hatred

• "We will end up with a brand new world champions" (NOT England)
• Mr Heartwork expressed hatred for England in the past, supports Gibraltar instead

[adhikapp]

As much as I rate Japan (being Asian and all), I can't see them win against Belgium at all. The first 11 are all well rested. It would take either an absurd lucky goal from Japan, or a horrendous performance from Belgium for this to not end as an upset.

[The_jagster]

3 hours ago, Heartwork said:

 

Pot 1	Pot 2	Pot 3	Pot 4
Russia (65) (hosts)  Germany (1)  Brazil (2)  Portugal (3)  Argentina (4)  Belgium (5)  Poland (6)  France (7)	Spain (8)  Peru (10)   Switzerland (11)  England (12)  Colombia (13)  Mexico (16)  Uruguay (17)  Croatia (18)	Denmark (19)  Iceland (21)  Costa Rica (22)  Sweden (25)  Tunisia (28)  Egypt (30)  Senegal (32)  Iran (34)	Serbia (38)  Nigeria (41)  Australia (43)  Japan (44)  Morocco (48)  Panama (49)  South Korea (62)  Saudi Arabia (63)

Looking at the rankings of teams that have gone out (at the time of the end of qualifying, October 2017, when teams were seeded) a lot have teams have already gone out who should well have been considered favourites to win. Brazil could still quite realistically crash out to Mexico tomorrow too. Have we ever been at this stage of a World Cup with so few Pot 1 "big" teams failing to progress? At this rate I'm starting to think it's Japan's to lose, as the only teams left who have previously won the World Cup are Brazil France, England and Uruguay so it's feeling more and more likely that we could end up with a brand new World Champion at the end of this.

Not really a surprise that a few teams that have exploited the ranking system aren't as good as their ranking suggests. Germany were a poor side in 2002 and the quarter final lineup in that tournament is just as bad imo.

[noikeee]

8 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Germany were a poor side in 2002 and the quarter final lineup in that tournament is just as bad imo.

This is true, easy to forget that was a very poor Germany and the strength on that end of the draw that year was bordering on farcical, but I think this tournament will put out the weakest finalist we've seen since. At least on paper it looks like it, but who knows, maybe Croatia England or Colombia (or maybe even any of the other teams still on the competition on this end!) can go on to shock the world by winning the whole thing.

[JD nawrat]

If England, Brazil and Belgium all go out it'll definitely be the worst performance from the big teams, ever. Even if Russia are a Pot 1 team, they were definitely not favourites to make the top 8. 

[daylight]

3 hours ago, georginho_juventusygr said:

Heartwork Hatred

• "We will end up with a brand new world champions" (NOT England)
• Mr Heartwork expressed hatred for England in the past, supports Gibraltar instead

Will you take a break from this?

 

[Cyp]

il y a une heure, The_jagster a dit :

Not really a surprise that a few teams that have exploited the ranking system aren't as good as their ranking suggests. Germany were a poor side in 2002 and the quarter final lineup in that tournament is just as bad imo.

Looking at Poland and Switzerland in particular.

Poland played only one friendly during the 18month before the seeding was done to avoid tanking their ranking ( winning friendlies would have lowered it)...

[himan]

Switzerland is a top 16 team. Qualified almost always, last few cups. Took 27 points in their qualifying group. Reached the last 16 in euros and wc 2014. It was about time they have some luck with draws. Poland is another story, they 'cheated' their way into the world rankings. But to answer your question: not yet, it's to early. If the final is France vs. England with SFists Brazil an Croatia, it's definite not true. 2002 was way worse. Or 1994 with Sweden and Bulgaria in semi's

[Razzler]

I think just shows how getting to a tournament is all that matters and how you play the tournament is key. No one is giving you a win, it's hard work.

I think whatever happens to England I hope they can see this. Sometimes the draw opens up, surprising results happen. You have to do your part, work hard, play to your abilities.

The days of the big teams having a procession to the latter stages, like in the CL are over. Most of the participants in a tournament can genuinely go into it thinking 'we can make the 1/4 finals... who knows after that' and not 'oh no, we have to get past x team or y team'.

You have to turn up on the day and do your part. No one really looks head and shoulders above everyone else anymore at international level, when you get to a tournament.

England's downfall has been going and playing the tournament. We had these 1/4 finals exits previously as though getting to the semi finals was some kind of witchcraft. Spain or not that entire side of the draw could look at that as a possibility

[RBKalle]

The ranking is a joke and hopefully it's gonna change for the better.

It's one of the worst World Cups for Big Teams, because some didn't even qualify and some just dropped the ball either with questionable call-up and/or tactical choices, others were simply not as good as they usually are.

That being said, Poland, Switzerland and Peru have no business in the Top 10 and I wonder how they managed to sneak up there.

[Redshift]

A lot of people watch the World Cup to see all the domestic stars playing for their country and most of those stars are forwards or AM's. I did wonder before the tournament started whether there where any great DM or defenders worth seeing and I think this cup shows that there just aren't as many as there where in previous competitions.

Apart from teams that are almost wholly setup to play a defensive stance, are there any teams with great defenders or defensive midfielders?

[Crispypaul]

2 minutes ago, Redshift said:

A lot of people watch the World Cup to see all the domestic stars playing for their country and most of those stars are forwards or AM's. I did wonder before the tournament started whether there where any great DM or defenders worth seeing and I think this cup shows that there just aren't as many as there where in previous competitions.

Apart from teams that are almost wholly setup to play a defensive stance, are there any teams with great defenders or defensive midfielders?

Uruguay?

They seem a very well balanced team.

[Redshift]

2 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

Uruguay?

They seem a very well balanced team.

That's a good shout. They are good going forward while only having conceded 1 goal to Portugal so far.

[PaulHartman71]

Definitely since 2002. Mad to think Turkey got to the Semi Final that year. South Korea too but that was more from some very questionable officiating. 

[Crispypaul]

11 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Definitely since 2002. Mad to think Turkey got to the Semi Final that year. South Korea too but that was more from some very questionable officiating. 

I am sure we won't have a repeat of the hosts having questionable decisions go in their favour

[noikeee]

34 minutes ago, Redshift said:

A lot of people watch the World Cup to see all the domestic stars playing for their country and most of those stars are forwards or AM's. I did wonder before the tournament started whether there where any great DM or defenders worth seeing and I think this cup shows that there just aren't as many as there where in previous competitions.

Apart from teams that are almost wholly setup to play a defensive stance, are there any teams with great defenders or defensive midfielders?

Uruguay with Godin-Gimenez, Brazil with Miranda-Thiago Silva aided by Casemiro (although I despise him), France with Varane-Umtiti helped by Kanté and their fairly defensive FBs not having a bad tournament neither, Belgium although not a great defensive side have Alderweireld and Vertonghen... these are all in the competition, I don't think there's a giant issue with defenders here

[FrazT]

A lot of nonsense in some overseas papers about the fact that the loss of some of the bigger teams has somehow devalued the whole competition.  Whilst a match between 2 big teams may look good on paper, it is uncanny how often they turn out to be boring, so I for one am happy to watch whoever gets through

[Crispypaul]

21 minutes ago, FrazT said:

A lot of nonsense in some overseas papers about the fact that the loss of some of the bigger teams has somehow devalued the whole competition.  Whilst a match between 2 big teams may look good on paper, it is uncanny how often they turn out to be boring, so I for one am happy to watch whoever gets through

Is one of those papers Marca by any chance?

[Baptista_8]

26 minutes ago, FrazT said:

A lot of nonsense in some overseas papers about the fact that the loss of some of the bigger teams has somehow devalued the whole competition.  Whilst a match between 2 big teams may look good on paper, it is uncanny how often they turn out to be boring, so I for one am happy to watch whoever gets through

France VS Argentina and Spain VS Portugal say otherwise!

[PaulHartman71]

3 hours ago, Crispypaul said:

I am sure we won't have a repeat of the hosts having questionable decisions go in their favour

 

I do think it was a pen on Pique but was enough pushing from Spanish players to argue could’ve given a foul either way. Spain definitely only have themselves to blame for going out tho, just not good enough. Was like watching Arsenal at times. 

[Heartwork]

On 01/07/2018 at 17:53, Heartwork said:

 

Pot 1	Pot 2	Pot 3	Pot 4
Russia (65) (hosts)  Germany (1)  Brazil (2)  Portugal (3)  Argentina (4)  Belgium (5)  Poland (6)  France (7)	Spain (8)  Peru (10)   Switzerland (11)  England (12)  Colombia (13)  Mexico (16)  Uruguay (17)  Croatia (18)	Denmark (19)  Iceland (21)  Costa Rica (22)  Sweden (25)  Tunisia (28)  Egypt (30)  Senegal (32)  Iran (34)	Serbia (38)  Nigeria (41)  Australia (43)  Japan (44)  Morocco (48)  Panama (49)  South Korea (62)  Saudi Arabia (63)

 

[SteveUK]

I think it's been awful in terms of quality of football/performance but it's 10/10 for shock factor.

[YOUNGSTEVE]

What shocks? This is more to do with the idiotic rankings which are nonsense. Yes, Russia are doing better than feared, but in all honesty if up against anyone except the European & South American Nations plus Mexico, they would hardly be outsiders to win, yet are the lowest ranking country in the finals. The only real shock is Germany. Spain's glory days are long behind & are boring as well, so no shock there, Argentina have been in decline for awhile, even with Messi, & Portugal losing to Uruguay is hardly a shock. . Poland are probably one of the worst European sides to qualify. The only real shock getting to last 16 was Japan.

[GSevensM75]

1 hour ago, SteveUK said:

I think it's been awful in terms of quality of football/performance but it's 10/10 for shock factor.

I think the football has been quite entertaining.  I also think it is good when a number of larger traditional nations bite the dust earlier, as long as there are still some around for the latter stages.  And we still have some potentially tasty games coming up.  Brazil vs Belgium will be fascinating as will France vs Uruguay.  In the SF a Brazil vs France or Belgium vs France would be pretty tasty.  I'm really enjoying it.

As for the quality, I've said for years that the general standard of football has been declining.  Whether this is down to money, the fact that defenders can't defend the way they used to, formations cancelling each other out etc. I couldn't say.  But I do feel that the amazing stats that Messi and Ronaldo put up year after year is as much down to poorer opposition as their own brilliance.

[JD nawrat]

2 minutes ago, GSevensM75 said:

I think the football has been quite entertaining.  I also think it is good when a number of larger traditional nations bite the dust earlier, as long as there are still some around for the latter stages.  And we still have some potentially tasty games coming up.  Brazil vs Belgium will be fascinating as will France vs Uruguay.  In the SF a Brazil vs France or Belgium vs France would be pretty tasty.  I'm really enjoying it.

As for the quality, I've said for years that the general standard of football has been declining.  Whether this is down to money, the fact that defenders can't defend the way they used to, formations cancelling each other out etc. I couldn't say.  But I do feel that the amazing stats that Messi and Ronaldo put up year after year is as much down to poorer opposition as their own brilliance.

I think any combination of Uruguay/France Vs Brazil/Belgium will be entertaining. Uruguay are a very good side too. 

[GSevensM75]

1 minute ago, JDownie said:

I think any combination of Uruguay/France Vs Brazil/Belgium will be entertaining. Uruguay are a very good side too. 

They are.  But I just can't bring myself to want any Suarez team to do well!  Brazil vs Uruguay would make an excellent semi final too.

I'm looking forward to the England vs Colombia game.  I think it's going to be a close run thing and I think both teams are evenly matched.

[JD nawrat]

6 minutes ago, GSevensM75 said:

They are.  But I just can't bring myself to want any Suarez team to do well!  Brazil vs Uruguay would make an excellent semi final too.

I'm looking forward to the England vs Colombia game.  I think it's going to be a close run thing and I think both teams are evenly matched.

Haha fair point. I think Suarez is balanced out with the very likable backline/GK, midfield and Cavani. 

I think all of the remaining games in the tournament will be very close, evenly contested games. Only potential mismatches now are in the final, if we somehow get something like Brazil Vs. Sweden. But even that would be a close match as Sweden don't go down easily. 

[Deisler26]

Absolutely loving it.

[Crispypaul]

11 hours ago, GSevensM75 said:

As for the quality, I've said for years that the general standard of football has been declining.  Whether this is down to money, the fact that defenders can't defend the way they used to, formations cancelling each other out etc. I couldn't say.  But I do feel that the amazing stats that Messi and Ronaldo put up year after year is as much down to poorer opposition as their own brilliance.

Declining since when?

 

[GSevensM75]

On ‎03‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 09:35, Crispypaul said:

Declining since when?

 

That's a tough one to answer.  I first noticed it in the Premier League around the start of the 2010s.  I've always felt that Fergie's best ever title was 2012/13 because that Man Utd team was so comparatively poor compared to its predecessors.  It was also the year Spurs got (at that moment) their record Premier League points haul and I can safely say we simply were not that good that year.  Perhaps that was further cemented the following year when Spurs were downright poor for most of the season and managed to finish 6th.

It was also then I noticed the other leagues.  Obviously Italy has been in massive decline for years.  Juventus domination demonstrates that, combined with the fact that hardly any signings from Serie A tear it up in the Premier League anymore.  Spain obviously is a three horse race with the rest of the teams pretty much being chaff.  They are deeply concerned in Germany about the quality of their league (and now their national team) and France is a one horse race.  And the "smaller" nations just don't even register now.  When I was growing up Ajax was a massive team, Scottish teams were capable of winning European trophies etc.

It could be that football is going through a transition period between eras.  I do think that may have been the case in the Premier League.  It happened in the old Division One too.  Retrospectively it is obvious that Liverpool's decline started in the late 1980s.  89/90 was their swansong season and then there was that four or five year gap between eras.  But I just don't think footballers are technically as good as they used to be and/or there is a general loss of aggression (and I don't mean dirtiness) in the attitude of sportsmen across the spectrum too.  People bemoan a lack of leaders, but I think it is deeper than that.  There are simply less people with a winning mentality.  The reason behind that is probably best not discussed in this thread but I genuinely believe it to be the case.

[themadsheep2001]

I dont think any of that is true at all. Players have objectively got faster fitter and stronger, and the general technique has gone up with that.

Also it's more a centralisation of major talent. It's no long spread out, the bigger teams can buy more talent than ever before.

Ajax is a perfect example, they still produce loads of quality, they can't however fend off teams with more money.

Again, Scottish teams are absolute paupers financially. Celtic play Champions League footballl, but can't even fend off barely relegated Southampton.

 

[Cedrik]

2 hours ago, GSevensM75 said:

There are simply less people with a winning mentality. 

Maybe. I just think there is less reason for young players to develop one as the rewards come so quickly these days. Players from youth teams can already be semi-superstars with huge contracts, fame and loads or media attention. Back in the days this wasn't the case. I remember seeing a documentary about Steven Gerrard and when he made his debut no one really knew who he was iirc, nowadays that is an unthinkable scenario. If you're talented people immediately know. Take for example that kid from Celtic or that talent from Dortmund. They are already somewhat famous at the age of 13. 

18 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Ajax is a perfect example, they still produce loads of quality, they can't however fend off teams with more money.

Purely financially Ajax can, it's more that talents want to leave at a younger age. Nowadays after 20 good games talents feel they are ready for the next step. Fifteen years ago players would stay for several season before wanting a transfer. 

[SteveUK]

The further this tournament progresses the more it resembles a Fifa FA Cup tournament where all the big boys got knocked out in the last 16 and you get a Wigan vs QPR final.