Do you think FM became too complex?

Hi.

I had proper discussion between me and few friends of mine about how FM has been too much complex or not we were pretty much divided on subject.

It made me wonder if this was how the rest the community thought about the complexity of latest FM games.

Rather you like or not FM10, do you think with the introduction of new features and how things are presented in the UI, do you think that the game has become too much complex for you?

Personally, I think FM is too simplistic as the game gets really repetitive after a while.

no I think that they should add more stuff to make it more real, in real life football is very complex....

no I think that they should add more stuff to make it more real, in real life football is very complex....

“Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple.” Bill Shankly

To be honest there should be a third option... INCREASE COMPLEXITY

I'd actually like to see more depth and complexity added. I hate the UI on 10 though so much that the only skin I can use is Cleira's 07 one, maybe I'm just old and stuck in my ways, but that skin is just sooooo right. Thats one thing that should have been left as is!

Onto the complexity and depth, I'd like to see a better implementation and our interaction with the media and players. I'd like them to continue work on the tactic creator and touchline shouts, there is so much more that could be added. Rather than just tactical shouts, I'd like to be able to calm or enthuse my team with my words on the touchline or signal to my winger to come over so I can tell him to get inside or outside his fullback depending on how things are going. Maybe these kind of 'chats' could happen while a player is being treated. I'm sure I'll think of plenty more!

it is as complex as it can be playing matches. all other parts HAVE to be improved, or made more complex, as you'd say.

“Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple.” Bill Shankly

That was 50 years a go though. Football's tactics, signings, contracts, training etc. have all become much more complex since then.

Personally, I think FM is too simplistic as the game gets really repetitive after a while.

agrees it gets repetitive

Get a girlfriend if you want things to be complex.

Get a girlfriend if you want things to be complex.

Too true! :confused:

i think it may be about time for SI to introduce 2 type of games in 1 in future. a simple more ''arcade'' type for people who dont have the time or want to put in the time and effort, and a more ''complex'' and very trying and time consuming version for those who dream to be more detailed in their tactics than Jose Mourinho and his fountain pen notes!!

anyone else not agree this would cover more of the field for all different types of users?.... hmmmmmm..............................

Get a girlfriend if you want things to be complex.

Quote of the week!

i think it may be about time for SI to introduce 2 type of games in 1 in future. a simple more ''arcade'' type for people who dont have the time or want to put in the time and effort, and a more ''complex'' and very trying and time consuming version for those who dream to be more detailed in their tactics than Jose Mourinho and his fountain pen notes!!

anyone else not agree this would cover more of the field for all different types of users?.... hmmmmmm..............................

To do that they'd need to increase the dev team size or split the current one between 2 projects. Would they do either justice?I think not. Would we all suffer because of a lack of focus? I think so.

FM has never been an 'arcade' type game and I think that when you buy any game in this genre (be it football related or not) you have to expect some complexity.

If you are after 'easier' or 'arcadey' then there are games around to cater for your tastes.

I just don't agree in watering down FM because a few people think its too complex.

More complex = more realism?

If the answer is yes, then I'd like to see the game getting more complex.

To do that they'd need to increase the dev team size or split the current one between 2 projects. Would they do either justice?I think not. Would we all suffer because of a lack of focus? I think so.

FM has never been an 'arcade' type game and I think that when you buy any game in this genre (be it football related or not) you have to expect some complexity.

If you are after 'easier' or 'arcadey' then there are games around to cater for your tastes.

I just don't agree in watering down FM because a few people think its too complex.

1st point id like to make is that im all for comlex makes it more realistic, i was just putting an alternative option forward that would please more people as a whole. and point number 2 is, CM3 and CM4 i think if my memory serves me correctly, were so simple that it was almost like just picking a formation and starting 11.... hence ''arcadey'' and MUCH ''easier''.

Well I'm not against more complex game. But also I think that more realistic game doesn't mean more complex. The complexity of Football manegement doesn't rely on outside matches, but it is the great variety tactics, transfers and everything that is about the match. The rest is just simply complexity of life and among this complexity exists corruption. Do you want corruption because it is realistic? Well i don't. Where do exactly draw the line of said "realism"?

However What I feel like and this is one of the points I find FM10 boring is the lack of organization in how the information is shown.

Before i got the game my mate was banging on about how more '' Complex '' the game was and how you had all new tactic bars and it was oh so difficult.

had a play around and won the league in my first season. wasn't really all that different from 09, just a face lift by the looks of it.

Time wen't on then i could see all the nice little changes etc.

I'd actually love alot more interaction with the players on and off the pitch. For purely comic reliefe purposes, we could have players get their cars bombed or attacked with acid....wich happens quite alot in Glasgow these days. Or even have a creep who knocks about Car parks at 3am letting off fire extinguishers...anyyyywayyy...i jest! although on a more serious note, there was a game on the PS that had little things like X player trashes bar at the clubs christmas DO and it's been leaked to the press. I think the whole manager/player relationships can be improved from the '' removed from favoured list because you don't play him as much anymore '' kinda thing.

I think the game is progressing better as time goes on. Overall am pretty happy with it all.

It has its good sides, but still there are simply too many things to look at and although I used tree menu skin I usually get lost even I play CM/FM for 8 or 9 years now.

After few tries at FM10 got back to FM08 at good old 2D and simplicity

To be honest there should be a third option... INCREASE COMPLEXITY

This. I think FM is already complex enough to simulate real football world but there's room for improvement. Come on, this is a football management game. And management isn't a simple job to do!

I just want them to speed up the game becuase 12 hours to complete a season with a good computer is bad and i lose patince

It's not too complex. There are many features on the management side of things that can be added to the game to add depth.

i think rather than increace tactical complexity like touchline shouts and the like, FM really needs training tweaked to give the manager more interation here. As it stands training is an after thought and this is far from the reality of real life football.

on the pitch there still needs to be a level of randomness and adding more shouts, effectivelly giving the manager almost full control of what players actually do, is not reasistic.

halftime team talks need tweaking though. leave the ability to say 'good job' but when things arent going too well there needs to be something more interactive to stir up the players or make is clear one particular opposition player needs close attention.

basically, FM needs more complexity and realism in the aspects of managing that a real life person can control. too much emphasis on tactics can take away from the game imo. yes, good managers devise in depth game plans and this is perfectly fine and exactly what FM should, and does, allow. however a good manager leadds the team in far more ways than tactics and buying players and these other areas need addressing.

The complexity of this game can still be increased.

When you won a trophy, there is not much congrat message from anyone maybe your competitor, staffs and players who like you. When you lose game, there is not much pressure felt as the fans and the board don't require as much as in real life. At least a criticizing or encoouraging message from the fans and the board would have sparked the confidence of the players and yourself. When you leave a team, players who like you should sound their disappointment and players who dislike you state the otherwise.

Some people require fun from the game and some would require realism. I am the one who requires both with them equally balanced in the game. However the tactic would be the most complex aspect for me in this game. A little tweak would have changed the playstyle which I have taken more time to find the best tactic that suitable to every players. You would have won all the competitions but you would have never finished tweaking the tactic to win the games. That is tricky although the same tactic may have produce you the different results even against the same team.

Winning everything with top team and feeling bored? Try to manage a lower league team.

There is no way that it is too complex. I believe that it should be leading the field of sports management games and continue to expand on its enormous depth it has already.

I don't believe the game as a whole is too complex, and there are lots of features that could be expanded on.

But I will say that the training and tactics part are complex and not very well explained. When reading some of the very thorough threads in the Tactics forum, you get the feeling that getting success out of the game engine, you really need to fiddle around too much.

It has become a bit more accessable with the Tactics wizard (FM09 was a horrible tweak-fest), but there is still an awful lot of tweaking to be done sometimes.

If I had never sat down and spent hours reading through mamoth threads, I would have thrown the game away in frustration. I still don't understand all of it (just too much theory on a higher level than I am prepared to sit through) and just use tactics and training schemes others have made.

Some like to spend 2 hours before each match analyzing the opponents last 7 games to look for weaknesses, others prefer to spend more time on training players or are just casual players. So you will never be able to satisfy everyone.

I don't mind complexity. I just want the game to make it less of a hassle for us, who don't want to spend hours tweaking everything or read 150-page Tactics Theorems, to actually play and enjoy ourselves.

I think in the future other aspects of the game besides the game engine needs to be expanded upon ... and a much better interface or feedback on your actions. There is simply too much guess-work involved.

I play FM for long periods of time, I like the fact that it is getting more complex as that keeps it interesting for longer periods.

That said, I can see how it becoming more complex could put off new players to genre, I remember the first time I loaded FM06 after a long absence from Football management games. It almost blew my mind with its complexity.

I wish the training of players was more involved.

Usually the training takes up 3 - 6 days of the week. And it's only on match day that you interact with your players.

A better way would be perhaps some 30 minute five aside matches With your players.

Or setting up set pieces, better reports from your coaches in statistical charts.

So if I have a coach solely concentrating on Set Pieces I want to see his report, like the "Analysis" part of the game, where you can view shots, who took them etc.

I want to see more interaction with the players and the team during the week. And the coaches to have more influence on how they perform on match day.

I may have the best player in the world, but if he's having a bad week in training I may consider resting him for the next game.

Or some player might be having a fantastic week in training, but he's not a regular, so I might consider them.

For me the Match Day is not complex enough. And the media stuff is far too complex.

Hi.

I had proper discussion between me and few friends of mine about how FM has been too much complex or not we were pretty much divided on subject.

It made me wonder if this was how the rest the community thought about the complexity of latest FM games.

Rather you like or not FM10, do you think with the introduction of new features and how things are presented in the UI, do you think that the game has become too much complex for you?

No, the more features they add the more realistic it becomes and I'm all for them making it more complicated with each version until it is a realistic trainer for managers. If you think its too complicated stick to FIFA I'm sure the vast majority (as the poll suggests) welcome realism.

Kind of yes, but also no not really ......

The tactics wizzard helps people that struggle with understanding slider-relationships in tactics.

The AI (tho it's anything but Intelligent, we should really be calling it AS) controlled managers are too rigid, predictable and limited, which means once you know what your doing they are easily overcome.

Player interactions are very lacking aswell, with team-talks & media comments being too strictly one-dimesional.

That was 50 years a go though. Football's tactics, signings, contracts, training etc. have all become much more complex since then.

In real life a manager will tell the board which player he would like and they will actually deal with the transfer fee and negotiate the contract with the player. Not the manager. Also you will find that although training regimes are more fine tuned nowadays lot's of clubs on the continent were already using groundbreaking training methods back in the 60's & 70's that pretty much launched the standards for today. But back then they didn't have all the agents and specilised staff to come up with the methods and negotiations of deals like they do now. It was actually back then when the manager pretty much DID do everything so perhaps it was more complex to be a manager back then!

It all depends what you want from the game at the end of the day.

Do you want MotD gameplay, or do you want to head every ball like Alex Ferguson rattling his chewing gum in the dugout?

FM is definately aimed towards the latter, and for me that is precisely what I want from a football management game.

the reason i buy fm every year is beacuse I enjoy the complexity compared to other football management games, bring on more complexity i say......................

No, the more features they add the more realistic it becomes and I'm all for them making it more complicated with each version until it is a realistic trainer for managers. If you think its too complicated stick to FIFA I'm sure the vast majority (as the poll suggests) welcome realism.

Your response only show that you have not bother to read the entire thread.

I suggest that you do.

IMO if you want simple play FIFA 10....

I like FM being complex as it makes the game better and more challenging imo

IMO if you want simple play FIFA 10....

I never play that manager mode on FIFA

FM 2009 felt too complex, 2010 seems ok to me (because of the option to simplify tactic creation). I would be against more complexity though. I'm an old-time player that used to play CM2 and CM 03/04 and games around that area, and I found 2009 just horrible, I couldnt get into it because of the complexity. 2010 with the new tactics creation option seemed suddenly a lot easier to get into.

To complex? No.

To slow and tedious? Yes.

I think the depth is fine as it is. But I really think that it can be too difficult to produce a good tactic (I've really struggled through all the FM's to produce one that works really well, as have many other people), which should imo be changed.

How SI could do this, I have no idea, but I really think there should be some way in which to produce a simple tactic that works in essence, and then left to the manager if they want to make it more complex or not. Currently the simple tactics just do not seem to work.

Tactically, it is way too complex. FM10 is now incredibly, unbelievably difficult, creating a really good, consistent tactic seems impossible. I had one that worked relatively well on 10.2 but I had to throw that one out with 10.3 arriving (scoring a goal seemed to happen every month or so with that previously free-scoring tactic...) and now I'm stuck, even though 3-4-3 still seems unbeatable when the AI does it...

Dunno if it's time for difficulty levels to be introduced but right now it just doesn't feel right: I have to keep tinkering like hell to achieve respectable results and we are still outplayed by every quality team, the best we can hope for is hanging on for totally undeserved draws... And this with a good, Champions League-quality team. It feels like work sometimes and too often you get the feeling it's not Football Manager any more but rather Match Engine Manager. It must be heaven for tactical gurus but as bean824 noted, simple tactics just do not seem to work which is a shame. The game favours those who love tinkering hours before each match and those of us who prefer to keep a simple tactic and focus on developing players are handicapped, brutally.

It's been a strange path for FM, by the way: with 08, defending was really difficult but you could always count on creating lots of chances as well. With 09, creating chances hasn't been easy but you could usually count on a solid defence. FM10 and especially 10.3 has arrived to the point when it's difficult to defend properly but at least it's just as equally difficult to create chances...

Tactically, it is way too complex. FM10 is now incredibly, unbelievably difficult, creating a really good, consistent tactic seems impossible. I had one that worked relatively well on 10.2 but I had to throw that one out with 10.3 arriving (scoring a goal seemed to happen every month or so with that previously free-scoring tactic...) and now I'm stuck, even though 3-4-3 still seems unbeatable when the AI does it...

Dunno if it's time for difficulty levels to be introduced but right now it just doesn't feel right: I have to keep tinkering like hell to achieve respectable results and we are still outplayed by every quality team, the best we can hope for is hanging on for totally undeserved draws... And this with a good, Champions League-quality team. It feels like work sometimes and too often you get the feeling it's not Football Manager any more but rather Match Engine Manager. It must be heaven for tactical gurus but as bean824 noted, simple tactics just do not seem to work which is a shame. The game favours those who love tinkering hours before each match and those of us who prefer to keep a simple tactic and focus on developing players are handicapped, brutally.

It's been a strange path for FM, by the way: with 08, defending was really difficult but you could always count on creating lots of chances as well. With 09, creating chances hasn't been easy but you could usually count on a solid defence. FM10 and especially 10.3 has arrived to the point when it's difficult to defend properly but at least it's just as equally difficult to create chances...

Rubbish.

I've had two promotions and a cup win in Sweden playing a basic 4-4-2.

I've now moved to England and after setting in my team has won 10 games on the trot with a similar basic 4-4-2. I should also point out that this is a team that was predicted to finish 16th as well.

Well, good for you.

I find it incredibly difficult. Just now tried a basic 4-4-2 as nothing seemed to be working and we stopped scoring with my compact 4-3-1-2. We got absolutely savaged and I'm not talking about a scale when it can be explained by the new tactic needing time to bed in - we just could not cope with the opposition's attacking, not at all.

If I want to be successful in attack I have to accept that we are carved open repeatedly and if I want a solid defence then I'll have to resign myself to lack of goals scored. Either way, result is a lot of draws... and of course unlucky losses. For me, FM10 is way too difficult but glad to hear others have different experiences.

Well, good for you.

I find it incredibly difficult. Just now tried a basic 4-4-2 as nothing seemed to be working and we stopped scoring with my compact 4-3-1-2. We got absolutely savaged and I'm not talking about a scale when it can be explained by the new tactic needing time to bed in - we just could not cope with the opposition's attacking, not at all.

If I want to be successful in attack I have to accept that we are carved open repeatedly and if I want a solid defence then I'll have to resign myself to lack of goals scored. Either way, result is a lot of draws... and of course unlucky losses. For me, FM10 is way too difficult but glad to hear others have different experiences.

Making choices is part of management.

In Sweden I did have more of a solid defence and scored less goals. If I went behind I was in trouble but if I scored first the opposition would push forward and I could counter.

In England it didn't work and I've adjusted to a much more attacking 4-4-2. I do let in goals but I also have a lot more shots now resulting in more goals when the team hit the target.

I find you have to get to know the team/players and what orders work best within your formation.

Yeah but making choices between failure because of lack of goals or failure because of poor defending... it seems quite pointless to choose.

Nothing works with these bunch of players, I thoroughly regret ever installing 10.3, on 10.2 we weren't this bad, although nothing seemed to work consistently and I was fed up with tinkering all the time...

Hell yes. A massive part of the charm of the CM2/3 series has gone sadly.

It does feel like a chore doing some of the things in FM.

i think for those of us who love the game or played it for years find the game too easy.

but those who are just casual 'armchair' fans or are not used to this game find fm complex. i know of several people who wont play the game because they find it too hard and difficult to master

Is FM too complex? I think FM can be fairly overwhelming, especially if you are new to the series. The biggest problem is lack of documentation, we don't even get proper game manuals any more like versions of old use to provide. Even the game guide companies don't even bother writing books anymore for it.

The tactical side of things, I feel SI rely too much on the community to explain their game for them. As I've mentioned in another thread, tactics could be improved by providing more graphical representations of settings and also the inclusion of a tactical sandbox or animated chalkboard to test the basic shape and operation. This would help break down the complexity of tactics.

Wheres the "No, it is not fine as is"option. Everything in the game becomes a routine after two seaasons and every thing you do is followed by positive or negative reaction in the game.Little variety, you can even go through press conferences without looking at the questions.

Wow, this thread's crying out for some braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaains!!!!