Football Manager 2019 Official Feedback Thread

[Tom8983]

13 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

None of those are from a positional attack (or maybe the first, but play isnt established in final third though). It's attacks that counter the opposition or doing a phase of transition. This match engine got a lot of potential - huge, to be honest. Alone, the Play out of Defence, and how it acts, is so cool and good. Everything I wanted. But the lack of strikers' movement under positional attacks, the slow turn of players and the lack of willingness to try through balls in the center makes it quite hard for me to enjoy FM19, though it seems close to being really good (the best ever) - if just the problems gets fixed a bit.

At least two of those goals were from a sustained attack. Why you'd expect more through ball assists when the opposition has had time to reset and sit deep is beyond me. It's an extremely rare thing. The Arsenal Invincibles were amazing at intricate passing around the area resulting in a short through ball, but there's a reason they were so lauded for it. It's because it's next to impossible to do on such a regular basis, and it's why no team has ever achieved similar since.

[Mitja]

16 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

And that would make people think more about what styles of football they can get away with given the players at their disposal.

this is also related to mentality issues where they produce different football than claimed which is even more important for AI and realism in matches.

[Gegenklaus]

56 minutes ago, Tom8983 said:

At least two of those goals were from a sustained attack. Why you'd expect more through ball assists when the opposition has had time to reset and sit deep is beyond me. It's an extremely rare thing. The Arsenal Invincibles were amazing at intricate passing around the area resulting in a short through ball, but there's a reason they were so lauded for it. It's because it's next to impossible to do on such a regular basis, and it's why no team has ever achieved similar since.

None of those attacks comes from a positional attack where you are camping in the opponents half - suffocating them. I’ve never said I expected through balls in the final third in front of an established defence. What I do expect is player roles that is set to do certain moves does those moves according to each other - which is rarely happening at the moment. Strikers being one. Right now, you cant make your number 10 your main goal threat because the lack of movement from strikers and good players not being able to turn fast enough - its “beyond me” if you dont see that.

I would argue that many teams has done what Arsenal’s invincible did? Pep’s Barcelona being the obvious example. His Man City attacks mainly through the half spaces - with through balls and that also happens through the center. And many teams tries to do so too. Klopps Liverpool attack the center all the time. Always trying to funnel to the center. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Gegenklaus

[Gegenklaus]

Also when thinking about it why wouldnt I expect through balls in the final third if that is how I have my team set up to do so? I don’t expect it to work all the time but it should be possible to design your team to attack the golden zone and try to make space there - a simple move could be to have two wingers that are wide, a deep lying forward that drops off the defensive line and a Shadow striker in front of him that charges into the box. Is that move possible right now? Are the players trying it?

Edited December 13, 2018 by Gegenklaus

[Orangedale]

VNN. Opponent in white has 20 shots, 6 on target, 15 long. 0 clear or half chances. I had 11 shots, 4 on target, 2 long. 3 clear chances, 1 half. Game ended 2-2. Opponent scored 2 long shots, one screamer off a single step, one well hit along the ground. I scored an over the shoulder volley like Ronaldo did the other week against Man U. To see one of these in a VNN game would be impressive. To see 3 is a little unrealistic in my opinion, and to see at least 1 screamer every match is ridiculous. It would seem as ridiculous if they weren't being hit with such power, these players have 5 long shots and 7 technique.

If I move my defensive line up to give these midfielders less space on the edge of my box I still cop stupid long balls over the top from their CBs. I feel like my only option now it to play a 4-5-1 or 3-5-2 to try and sit deep to protect myself from long balls but also have enough bodies in front of my area just to defend these long shots.

No videos just screenshots of where the goals were scored from.

Whitehawk v Boreham Wood.pkm

Edited December 13, 2018 by Orangedale

[duccio]

Were pre/post match press conferences seriously toned down in the lower leagues in 19.2.0? I'm managing in the Italian Serie C, and after updating there seems to be hardly any match related press conferences.

[Mensell76]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

you forgot this fact is that instructions, roles, attributes or basic football stuff like passing don't work (as intended) and it all worked well in previous FMs, that's a big problem for far fans and the game. nobody expects the game to simulate real football to perfection or to be without bugs. but you do expect improvements not basic things not working because these issues will undermine everything good about game. i'm sure i'm not the only one who won't play the game in current state.

Very well said and that is why the misused word "broken" actually makes sense. The correlation between attributes, roles, personal an team instructions and its portrayal in the ME  seems to be off at the moment. 

And no you are not the only one. I am not starting a career game in fm19 and I am actually regretting to have spend EUR 45 on this year's iteration where I could /should have waited for march and spend just half and saved myself from getting into many arguments with people who for a long time seemed to have the knowledge of these persistent issues.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Mensell76

[Neil Brock]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

currently there are attributes having little or no effect, like movement related or dribbling, technique or passing/vision/decision, tackling related.... what you said seems science fiction at the moment.

This simply is not true. These are exactly the types of comments we mentioned earlier via the 'House Rules' messaging which isn't helpful in any way. We mentioned "deliberate falsehoods" and "prejudiced misinterpretations" previously so please stop.

If you have an example of an issue raise it in the bugs forum. Posts like this which are spreading things which have no foundation of fact will be removed. 

[rain94]

After about 50 games using Beta Patch 19.2 and now Public 19.2, I am finding goals outside of the box very concerning. I created a new save using the latest build 1173367, right before the Public 19.2 was released.

I am am not using Work Ball in the Box nor am I using Shoot from Distance. Playing the default template of Wing Play 4321 with very minimal changes to team instructions, my midfield trio is DLP-SU, CM-A, and an Anchor-D in the Defensive Mid strata.  My wingers are W-A, and W-S. Through 32 games, Argentina Premier League and Copa Sudamerica, my team has scored 17 goals from outside of the box. Furthermore, the goals that are tallied inside of the box, 29, some of those, approximately 10 or so, could have been tallied outside as well since they were right on the line. In another save, the AI was equally scoring loads of goals outside of the box until I discovered that having atleast 1 CB in the Stopper role, a player in the D-MID strata, and/or Marking and Closing down key opponents with good Long Shot attribute contributed greatly to the mitigation of the AI's long goals. Any combination of those lead to a good reduction. That makes sense. 

Btw, my Central Mid w/ no traits is playing CM-A. He has a Longshot attribute of 15. He has 6 goals in 15 APPs, all outside of the box and in the run of play. 4 of the 17 team long goals are Free Kicks from my WB with Free Kick Attribute of 14. The rest are from Wingers who cut inside from time to time. Again, I want to stress that a lot of the goals that are tallied inside of the box could very well be considered outside due to it being right on the line. So I don't have a proper goal count for those. All I can say is that the goals scored by my team outside of the box is a huge problem, imo. 

 

As far as Throughballs, I am quite happy with them. I play in Comprehensive Highlights and I am seeing a good amount of throughballs from the flanks to center (short and long), and plenty of beauties from the center of pitch to central attackers. To be honest, there are more direct lob throughballs than short grounded ones but the short throughballs do exist, oftentimes not ending in a goal. It could be a lot better but I don't feel like it's a game breaker atm. 

Overall, I'm content with this match engine. I feel like it's very reponsive to tactical changes, even subtle changes like simply switching a role from Support to Defend or to Attack. I dare say that it could be my favourite version so far. I don't think Neil is wrong at all in saying that this is one of the best in FM. 

[Mitja]

4 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

This simply is not true. These are exactly the types of comments we mentioned earlier via the 'House Rules' messaging which isn't helpful in any way. We mentioned "deliberate falsehoods" and "prejudiced misinterpretations" previously so please stop.

If you have an example of an issue raise it in the bugs forum. Posts like this which are spreading things which have no foundation of fact will be removed. 

sorry Neil but the issues raised in ME bugs forum about movement, different roles, passing, technique were all acknowledged by your team.  

[Mensell76]

10 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

This simply is not true. These are exactly the types of comments we mentioned earlier via the 'House Rules' messaging which isn't helpful in any way. We mentioned "deliberate falsehoods" and "prejudiced misinterpretations" previously so please stop.

If you have an example of an issue raise it in the bugs forum. Posts like this which are spreading things which have no foundation of fact will be removed. 

Neil, he has provided many examples related to poor ball control, passing, vision and decisions in the public beta. Are you aware of this ? 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Mensell76

[Neil Brock]

4 minutes ago, Mitja said:

sorry Neil but the issues raised in ME bugs forum about movement, different roles, passing, technique were all acknowledged by your team.  

 

4 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

Neil, he has provided many examplesrelated to poor ball control, passing, vision and decisions in the public beta. Are you aware of this ? 

That is completely different to saying: "currently there are attributes having little or no effect, like movement related or dribbling, technique or passing/vision/decision, tackling related".

That is making an assumption. You see movement or a style of play not how you expect it to be, so state that the attributes are having little or no effect? That isn't the case at all, the attributes have a huge bearing on what a player does in the match engine and are most certainly having a major effect on everything you see. 

[Mitja]

3 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

That is completely different to saying: "currently there are attributes having little or no effect, like movement related or dribbling, technique or passing/vision/decision, tackling related".

 

if you read my comments before the one quoted, i was comparing it to fm17 where all that worked well and the difference between players and attributes was clearly visable. for example if there are big issues with players not being able to spot most obvious, practically the only option he can make than representation of attributes doesn't work as intended. (player has both vision and decision 15+, he doesn't make that pass). such examples are abundant and in all areas.  

[bigmattb28]

I've not read all the posts on this but just my 2 cents on FM19 as a whole is I'm actually loving it. Currently still on the same save as I started in the beta and have no complaints. I didn't like 18 whatsoever and had some reservations about 19, I don't play whilst logged into Steam online and my steam says I've got 47 minutes on 19 which is wrong as I am quite far into my save but my opinion is that this is the best FM I've played, and I've been playing year after year since CM99/00. I've not seen any of the bad ME things posted and the AI team building I've not seen any issues, however I did see Benzema in the Dinamo Zagreb team in his last season before retiring, not that that's anything out of the ordinary. I actually love the new training aspect of the game, the mentoring system is a nice addition and something different. Still not completely sold on the scouting center but it's not game breaking for me.

All in all 19 for me is a great game and 1 I genuinely look forward to playing.

[fidelitywars]

1 hour ago, Neil Brock said:

This simply is not true. These are exactly the types of comments we mentioned earlier via the 'House Rules' messaging which isn't helpful in any way. We mentioned "deliberate falsehoods" and "prejudiced misinterpretations" previously so please stop.

If you have an example of an issue raise it in the bugs forum. Posts like this which are spreading things which have no foundation of fact will be removed. 

Whilst attributes may not have 'no effect' in-game, from my experience it seems true that creative passing/dribbling happen with significantly lower frequencies than they have on previous iterations of FM. As such, it does appear that the more creative technical attributes carry less weight than they have (ever?) done which is obviously going to cause a level of dissatisfaction. 

Conversely (and perhaps linked to the above?), it seems that tackle success rates are very high regardless of players' individual attributes whilst the ability to shoot from range/free kicks seems overpowered.

[Mensell76]

48 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

 

That is completely different to saying: "currently there are attributes having little or no effect, like movement related or dribbling, technique or passing/vision/decision, tackling related".

That is making an assumption. You see movement or a style of play not how you expect it to be, so state that the attributes are having little or no effect? That isn't the case at all, the attributes have a huge bearing on what a player does in the match engine and are most certainly having a major effect on everything you see. 

The numerous examples provided on poor turning and ball control , in comparison to fm18, led to an official BUG report by SI. The attributes of first touch, agility (visually) are not working as intended in this ME in comparison to FM18. 

The issue of lack of central forward passes- and play often restricts the creative passers to use their skills (passing, vision, Flair etc) in the best way possible in this ME.

So let's then just rephrase Mitja's sentence to "It seems that these attributes have little to no effect" in this ME. Are you okay with that ?

[themadsheep2001]

What Mitja said is still wrong though. You can't rephrase something that's fundamentally not accurate. 

In all honesty, what's the point in people asking SI to engage when they aren't going to listen to them anyway? Few are going to be better placed than Neil when he says that is or isn't true, so it would pay to listen to what he says that endlessly argue with him. 

Is there an issue with with some of the player choice in attacking in the final third? Yes

Is it linked to attributes? No

That's essentially the summation of Neil's point, and incorrectly conflating the two helps no one. 

[Svenc]

Part of the "Problem" of FM's Attribute System also boils down to expectations/lack of documentation. However, in particular now that "styles" have been made in integral part of the tactical UI -- not all styles should be equally viable for just about any side, etc. Which would also complicate Things for the AI though. F'r instance, historically it was Pretty easy to hold the ball no matter much the techical Quality of a side in parts due to an ME inherent Pressing/defending weakness, in particular in deeper areas of the pitch. If players aren't pushed, they aren't pushed. So oft a combination of things.

 

 

What an FM Player expects:

A Player with Long shots, etc. 1 can barely hit a ball (and vice versa). Basically, the gap being Pub Levels vs invincibles.

How competitive Sports works:

Teams spend billions in attempts to go a few extra percent over opposition. Any other perception (including how Mainstream media tends to report About Sports) is a fundamentally misconception.

What SI have stated in the past (almost a direct Quote from Paul Collyer, I think):

As soon as a Player is uploaded in the game, he is by Definition a Football Player.

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Svenc

[bar333]

I don't get this. If strikers standing still in the box and not attempting to lose their marker or make any movement regardless of role is their default behavior during build up in the final third, then how can we say attributes such as Off the Ball are working correctly? 

What we might say is that it's not happening because OTB doesn't do anything but for other reasons, but it still means OTB is not doing anything, it's just a case of the chicken and the egg. Currently when looking at strikers you shouldn't really pay much attention if any to their OTB attribute - I find that difficult to argue with. 

[themadsheep2001]

Because it's a point of accuracy. Saying attributes don't matter or don't work, when they absolutely still so, is flat out wrong. 

Even with attacking play needing a tweak, I can see this different in movement between Lukaku and Sanchez, with the former making me want to tear my hear out some times, before ghosting off and scoring a hat trick...

It also speaks to a bigger point, if you want Devs to engage and listen to you, you need to do the same in return. That's how you get dialogue. The fact that Neil  directly said to Mitja about falsehoods should speak volumes about its inaccuracy 

[westy8chimp]

20 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Part of the "Problem" of FM's Attribute System also boils down to expectations/lack of documentation. However, in particular now that "styles" have been made in integral part of the tactical UI -- not all styles should be equally viable for just about any side, etc. Which would also complicate Things for the AI though. F'r instance, historically it was Pretty easy to hold the ball no matter much the techical Quality of a side in parts due to an ME inherent Pressing/defending weakness, in particular in deeper areas of the pitch. If players aren't pushed, they aren't pushed. So oft a combination of things.

  Hide contents

 

What an FM Player expects:

A Player with Long shots, etc. 1 can barely hit a ball (and vice versa). Basically, the gap being Pub Levels vs invincibles.

How competitive Sports works:

Teams spend billions in attempts to go a few extra percent over opposition. Any other perception (including how Mainstream media tends to report About Sports) is a fundamentally misconception.

What SI have stated in the past (almost a direct Quote from Paul Collyer, I think):

As soon as a Player is uploaded in the game, he is by Definition a Football Player.

 

We go back and forth on this a bit... I agree with you, but given the example I gave above... The difference between Messi and certain semi pros in LLM is not a few %... Speed, fitness, technical skills... They are on different planets. 

Yeah the difference between Messi and the other type of strikers Barcelona could sign is small... Messi is the best, but the 50 th best striker in the world will still score goals in that barca team.... I agree at that level. And the difference between your #1 & #2gk might be 1%...but the difference between DDG and a part time gk... Is massive. 

[rain94]

I find "poachers" with good OTB attribute often get into position to bang one in. They might not make themselves available for a pass, which is what you guys are discussing, but certain players with a high OTB do move into the box for a rebound or deflection. I feel that FM is pretty good with that.

[duccio]

2 hours ago, duccio said:

Were pre/post match press conferences seriously toned down in the lower leagues in 19.2.0? I'm managing in the Italian Serie C, and after updating there seems to be hardly any match related press conferences.

My manager profile has gone "avoids talking to the press". I'm not avoiding the press, there are very few/no press conferences. My manager has been set to handle the press conferences in the staff responsibility settings.

[BigV]

18 minutes ago, rain94 said:

I find "poachers" with good OTB attribute often get into position to bang one in. They might not make themselves available for a pass, which is what you guys are discussing, but certain players with a high OTB do move into the box for a rebound or deflection. I feel that FM is pretty good with that.

It's more of the sense that people are using different roles and not getting the same out of its description, for example the F9 role they seem to act like advance forwards instead of playing like CAM's. To that extent it effects the inside forwards/wingers and any other build up play with knock on effects. I've tried using lukaku as a target man which has been okay but heading was an issue (not sure anymore after update), as a complete forward where he's been OKAY, and an advance forward that just looks like an offside poacher waiting to happen. I think what some people are trying to say is these roles do not function as they should to its best abilities and so some attributes don't work as well as they should for example someone with passing of 18 and vision of 16+ would be a playmaker in a sense of CM but don't thread through balls enough or play it simple/out wide where it was an issue (not so sure anymore after update). 

[BeadyRoller]

Since this latest patch I am conceding a ridiculous amount of long shots, anyone else? Like so ridiculous it's getting to the point I'm fearing every long range effort.

Edited December 13, 2018 by BeadyRoller

[rain94]

5 minutes ago, BeadyRoller said:

Since this latest patch I am conceding a ridiculous amount of long shots, anyone else? Like so ridiculous it's getting to the point I'm fearing every long range effort.

Check out my post just above about 2 hours ago.

[pheelf]

I'd really like to play this football manager version from the past where all these aspects that keep being mentioned over and over again worked so well. Perhaps I'm living in some sort of parallel universe where only my games had previous MEs that was plagued with issues (excessive far post corner goals, 3 strikers, OP fullbacks, OP narrow play, players ghosting through one another...I could go on for some time). 

The 'basics' of football that have been stated have never been quite right with us seemingly stuck on this perpetual hamster wheel with attempts to get closer to a better simulation with fixes often resulting in other issues and fixes for those new issues causing further issues and so on and so on. That is the nature of the beast however when it comes to programming software which I accept. You'd be surprised how complicated coding something 'basic' actually is, let alone balancing it with everything else. The issues with central play in this ME are probably a result of an attempt to fix the 3 strikers exploit in FM18.

I think people need to lower their expectations a bit. What do you expect for 30 quid? True to life simulations of anything cost a hell of a lot more than that (going to a flight simulator for just 45 minutes can cost £100). If you don't like it and it's no longer fun for you that's fair enough then don't play it or wait until it's been patched to a standard you're satisfied with.

Incidentally, posting issues in the bug forums does not give you the right to make demands as to when those bugs get fixed or become abusive because you think it's taking too long. Spotting an issue is one thing, fixing it is another ball game altogether. If it was a quick easy fix don't you think they would have done it already or do you think they enjoy coming on here and seeing players trash their work on a daily basis?

Anyway, here are my positives and negatives about FM19.

+ The new training module looks good and adds a level of detail that the game has been needing for quite some time after a long period without any significant changes. In previous versions, I have tended to assign my training to the assistant but for the first time in a while, I'm actually considering taking charge of it myself which is a major change for me.

+ I'm very happy that the ability to alter defensive width has been incorporated into the game as it has been something I've been wanting for a while. 

+ Separators for columns while a minor addition is also a nice addition.

+ Separating each phase of play (Defend, Transition & Attack) is also a very welcome addition as it allows more flexibility and is a good step in the right direction for the tactic creator.

+ I was skeptical about the new mentoring system but actually agree that it is far more realistic than having individual tutors.

+ I'm glad to see that the scouting area has had a revamp and the return of scouting messages in the inbox is great as it reduces the number of unnecessary clicks.

+ I like the addition of the Bundesliga as an official league, hopefully, we'll see more official leagues in the future.

+ There are some things to like about the ME, the addition of greater curve on airborne passes/shots being one of them, the increase in the number of animations being another.

+ The addition of VAR, the rescheduling of games so that the Qatar World Cup in 2022 can actually take place rather than be moved are good additions for realism purposes.

+ The removal of team shape which was one of the most obscure and confusing aspects of the game.

- I don't like the preset templates for tactics some of which have illogical and poor choices for roles, duties & TIs. I know that they aren't meant to be the finished product and should be adjusted but inadvertently could be teaching players (especially fresh ones) bad habits.

- Transfers seem a bit unbalanced in that I could easily bring in players which are clearly too good for the level of football I was at (Scottish 4th division) and have little to no trouble hanging on to those players.

- Some of the Brexit scenarios lead to ridiculous wage requirements for foreign players which isn't an issue in England but is in the rest of the UK.

- The balance of the ME isn't where it needs to be. It's stable in the sense that it produces results which are in line with what you would expect (unlike a previous versions beta build where the scorelines were ridiculous goal fests) but the variety of play can be limited at times.

- All of the Sweeper roles were removed. Yes, they aren't seen anymore in real football but neither are some other roles which remain in the game. For e.g. Name me one current real-life player who plays like an Enganche, the only player I can think of that played like that was Riquelme and he retired years ago.

- The game is lacking a wide attacking midfielder role, it is the only area of the pitch where you can't select a generic role to tailor to your preferences.

- I'm mystified as to why the visual representation in the tactical creator is still so primitive and we still have to depend on playing games in the ME to assess our tactics. This can't be right and needs to be changed. It is not realistic that you wouldn't know how you've instructed your players to play before they go out onto the pitch. Surely an isometric projection of the formation in 2018 isn't too much to ask.

Overall, it's a good game which has the potential to be the best in the series once certain issues have been ironed out. Whether that happens or not will determine if FM19 surpasses FM18.

Best Regards

Edited December 13, 2018 by pheelf

[rdbayly]

1 hour ago, bar333 said:

I don't get this. If strikers standing still in the box and not attempting to lose their marker or make any movement regardless of role is their default behavior during build up in the final third, then how can we say attributes such as Off the Ball are working correctly?

This is the type of question that moves the conversation forward. Strikers behaving in such a homogeneous manner is a source of immense frustration, given that in previous iterations this was simply not the case. 

[Mensell76]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Because it's a point of accuracy. Saying attributes don't matter or don't work, when they absolutely still so, is flat out wrong. 

The technical/coding discussion behind it and SI of course being right about attributes working is irrelevant. We as gamers should not have to care. We as gamers are provided with a player profile with attributes, roles and personal instructions and an ME that should be capable of portraying those attributes and instructions. 

In many cases that is spot on. In named cases above, judged solely by watching the ME by us ignorant gamers there visually seems to be little correlation between attributes, instructions and ME.

You have stated many times before that SI won't make time to explain difficult things to us dummies so please do not hold it against us too much now. We just stick to using our eyes when passing our own judgement and feedback on the ME. And whatever the underlying real issue is, it is up to SI to try to fix it and perhaps then our eyes will spot a correlation again.

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Mensell76

[themadsheep2001]

4 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

The technical/coding discussion behind it and SI of course being about attributes working is irrelevant. We as gamers should not have to care. We as gamers are provided with a player profile with attributes, roles and personal instructions and an ME that should be capable of portraying those attributes and instructions. 

In many cases that is spot on. In named cases above, judged solely by watching the ME by us ignorant gamers there visually seems to be little correlation between attributes, instructions and ME.

You have stated many times before that SI won't make time to explain difficult things to us dummies so please do not hold it against is too much now. We just stick to using our eyes when passing our own judgement and feedback on the ME. And whatever the underlying real issue is, it is up to SI to try to fix it and perhaps then out eyes will spot a correlation again.

 

If you don't have to care, then perhaps @Neil Brock and the rest of SI should spend less time trying to engage with those who don't care about what they say? How does that create good dialogue? Why should they listen to you, take time to explain things to you, if you don't want to listen to them? Feedback has to go both ways, otherwise it doesn't work. 

And the bold simply isn't true. I said they cannot always have time, or be able to explain inner workings and they will where they can, like he did earlier.

What you do is up to you, but I would say the next time one asks "why don't SI engage more?" to bear this in mind

[Mitja]

26 minutes ago, rdbayly said:

I don't get this. If strikers standing still in the box and not attempting to lose their marker or make any movement regardless of role is their default behavior during build up in the final third, then how can we say attributes such as Off the Ball are working correctly?

i'm lost too.

[upthetoon]

53 minutes ago, pheelf said:

- All of the Sweeper roles were removed. Yes, they aren't seen anymore in real football but neither are some other roles which remain in the game. For e.g. Name me one current real-life player who plays like an Enganche, the only player I can think of that played like that was Riquelme and he retired years ago.

 

Ozil? But people hate him because he doesn't press enough etc etc.

I believe Enganche role should still be around for the next 1 or 2 FM iteration and beyond FM21 22? I think that role would be gone from the game.

[bleventozturk]

As I said before, when you just watch the goals from several matches back to back, it is easy to see that something is off. Having said that, I decided to watch a few games in extended highlights, and I have to say that surprisingly I now agree with Neil Brock's statement that this is the most balanced ME ever. Apart from the choices made in the final third, the ME looks better than ever. The more you play, the more it grows on me. 

There is enormous potential with this ME in my opinion, if they can bring balance to the choices made by the players in the final third. No, I don't expect many successful through balls against established defenses, BUT I do expect attempts. Currently the central players are very heavily inclined to pass the ball to wider areas unless there is no resistance in front of them at the central areas. And when there is no resistance, most of the time they prefer to dribble a little and take a long range shot, rather than looking for a through ball. It should also be pointed out that playing the ball wide for a cross is easier than attempting a through ball, but that is followed by a cross eventually, and the average cross completion rate in football is not high enough in general to make it a 'much preferred' choice over an attempt for through ball. 

So there should definitely be more through ball ATTEMPTS, most of which should be picked up by the defenders or the GK of course. We almost never see those in this ME.

The subject of the importance of attributes is one that always bothered me in FM games. Of course we have to take Neil's word on this, but it never passes the eye test for me. To me it looks like the player roles you pick has a WAY more affect on how a player looks like in the ME, than his attributes. I made countless experiments on this several years ago, where I plugged in the worst players from my U18 teams instead of my star players, and within the system of the team they look almost identical. Again, based on eye test. I am sure more is happening under the hood of the ME.

 

[Totalfootballfan]

The event above doesn’t look good(19.2 patch)… and I encounter quite a lot of similar stuff

In order to better understand the context of this even I add that this event is from a match between RB Leipzig vs Bayer 04 match, these teams are from German Bundesliga...

 

 

 

 

[Tom8983]

5 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

None of those attacks comes from a positional attack where you are camping in the opponents half - suffocating them. I’ve never said I expected through balls in the final third in front of an established defence. What I do expect is player roles that is set to do certain moves does those moves according to each other - which is rarely happening at the moment. Strikers being one. Right now, you cant make your number 10 your main goal threat because the lack of movement from strikers and good players not being able to turn fast enough - its “beyond me” if you dont see that.

I would argue that many teams has done what Arsenal’s invincible did? Pep’s Barcelona being the obvious example. His Man City attacks mainly through the half spaces - with through balls and that also happens through the center. And many teams tries to do so too. Klopps Liverpool attack the center all the time. Always trying to funnel to the center. 

Oh yes, of course you can see that through the three seconds of video you get before the goal. Clearly some are counter attacks, but I'll say again because I actually saw the matches so I know it for a fact, at least two of those goals were from sustained attacks. You don't know more about my game than I do, so less of that nonsense please.

You might not have said that you expected through balls against a deep compact defence, but I didn't start my comments talking to you. It was a general point, and I've certainly seen people asking for such. Though my initial post wasn't even about through balls, it was about people complaining that they can't get a player playing in the CAM position to have any influence on matches, getting assists or even passing in and around the box. I proved that wrong by showing that it's possible, then people unable to stop moaning or admit that they're wrong decided to change the argument to "yea but they weren't all through balls waaaaaa". I never claimed they were. But some were, and they were pretty sweet. Then, with some people once more being unable to accept their own failings, they're now changing the argument once more to "oh but none of those clips had you camped outside their box for half an hour before you played what I consider to be a good enough through ball waaah wwaaaaahh wah". Give it a rest. (That last bit *was* aimed at you.)

You say "right now you can't make your number 10 your main goal threat". Well that's an entirely different argument. I'm arguing that your number 10, when played in a CAM role, can be your main play maker.

[Mons]

3 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

We go back and forth on this a bit... I agree with you, but given the example I gave above... The difference between Messi and certain semi pros in LLM is not a few %... Speed, fitness, technical skills... They are on different planets. 

Yeah the difference between Messi and the other type of strikers Barcelona could sign is small... Messi is the best, but the 50 th best striker in the world will still score goals in that barca team.... I agree at that level. And the difference between your #1 & #2gk might be 1%...but the difference between DDG and a part time gk... Is massive. 

If DDG has a CA of, say, 180, and a part-time GK has a CA of, say, 30 - is that not a massive difference? Would that massive difference not be displayed in the respective player attribute spread using the current system? And reflected in the ME accordingly?

 

What's so wrong with it then?

[Mons]

7 hours ago, yonko said:

That argument again. 

How dare we buy a product and expect it to work as advertised!?

Because of comments like that I dare SI to release the game next year without follow up patches. Release it when it's ready and I mean really ready without patches. Let's see how many customers without sense of entitlement will be left after that. 

The full release of the game is in March folks, as always. Don't expect better, cause we are not entitled to it. We pay money and then we have to help fix the game. Nice business module.

There is no need for feedback now. You will get mine next year.

 

All very well taking a quote of mine completely out of context, but at the risk of reopening a closed argument, how does it NOT work as advertised? Ask anybody who plays the game and who hasn't been exposed to the depressing whinging outlook in this forum whether they think the game is bugged to hell and is lacking the fundamentals of a good match engine, and I would reckon that the vast majority would say that it's quite realistic but that it could be improved, which is a fairer reflection of the state of the game. Saying it is broken or that it does not work as advertised is a complete lie and betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how things work.

 

RobertPage said originally "Clear statements regarding current problems and plans to fix them need to be made, and need to be made on a consistent basis (bi-Weekly at best, Monthly at worst)". That is as succinct a self-entitled post as possible. Expecting SI to list the issues they have identified and updating it on a schedule, just because you want to is just madness. I haven't seen it happen in any comparable industry and I doubt it can, because it is completely illogical.

 

There's nothing wrong with being disappointed when an identified issue isn't immediately resolved, but welcome to the real world, son - things don't get fixed asap just because you stamp your foot and cry out loud. Have a look around the gaming industry and realize that the way SI operate is far from common, and that the game, though not perfect, is perfectly playable.

[Johnny Ace]

How's Jones playing now on ME 19.2 @Tom8983 You said he'd hit a dip in form with the patch, has he picked back up?

 

[MBarbaric]

32 minuti fa, Tom8983 ha scritto:

Oh yes, of course you can see that through the three seconds of video you get before the goal. Clearly some are counter attacks, but I'll say again because I actually saw the matches so I know it for a fact, at least two of those goals were from sustained attacks. You don't know more about my game than I do, so less of that nonsense please.

You might not have said that you expected through balls against a deep compact defence, but I didn't start my comments talking to you. It was a general point, and I've certainly seen people asking for such. Though my initial post wasn't even about through balls, it was about people complaining that they can't get a player playing in the CAM position to have any influence on matches, getting assists or even passing in and around the box. I proved that wrong by showing that it's possible, then people unable to stop moaning or admit that they're wrong decided to change the argument to "yea but they weren't all through balls waaaaaa". I never claimed they were. But some were, and they were pretty sweet. Then, with some people once more being unable to accept their own failings, they're now changing the argument once more to "oh but none of those clips had you camped outside their box for half an hour before you played what I consider to be a good enough through ball waaah wwaaaaahh wah". Give it a rest. (That last bit *was* aimed at you.)

You say "right now you can't make your number 10 your main goal threat". Well that's an entirely different argument. I'm arguing that your number 10, when played in a CAM role, can be your main play maker.

If it is of any importance, I am match analyst and do this for living so I took your five examples and checked them. Some definitions you may or may not agree but here it is:

GOAL 1

Phase of play: quick transition with no control in the middle/attacking third.
Attack starts: Middle third
With: CAM sideways pass towards the left flank
Ends: with winger making a 40m solo run scoring after a deflection

Goal trigger: poor defending from whole D-unit (or a great individual run, whichever you prefer).
That surely isn't a key pass, and i'd argue it isn't even an assist. the pass from the CAM doesn't take out anyone in defensive unit, it is in the middle third and all the work is done by the winger.

 

GOAL 2

Phase of play: counter attack
Attack starts: in defensive third
With: CAM successfully completing a direct pass that takes out 8 opposition players
Ends: with RW receiving the ball in attacking third, proceeding on a solo run to score

Goal trigger: poor defensive transition
A genuine assist

 

GOAL 3

Phase of play: counter attack 
Attack start: the ball is won high up the pitch on the left flank in attacking third,
With: CAM making a side pass towards the box for a tap in

Goal trigger: individual defensive error
A genuine assist

 

GOAL 4

Phase of play: positional attack?
Attack starts: with an  overload on the right flank
With: CAM making a side pass towards the central corridor
Ends: with a long shot from the edge of the box

Goal trigger: Blue RW #20 too wide, unable to help defend the central corridor
A genuine assist

 

GOAL 5

Phase of play: Counter attack
Attack starts: in defensive third
With: CAM on a solo run and a through ball towards #21
Ends: with a first time shot from the box

Goal trigger: poor defensive transition. white #5 leaving the opposition #21 to close down CAM 
A genuine assist

 

So to summarize,

- there is only one assist from an attack developed in attacking third (GOAL 4)

- three assists from counter attacks (GOALS 2, 3 and 5)

- one assist to a 40 yard solo run that isn't really an assist

46 minuti fa, Tom8983 ha scritto:

at least two of those goals were from sustained attacks.

only one from what I can see

 

47 minuti fa, Tom8983 ha scritto:

it was about people complaining that they can't get a player playing in the CAM position to have any influence on matches

it isn't about CAM's not having any influence on matches really. It is more about CAM's generally being ineffective during positional attacks as more advanced players lack movement in the attacking third.

 This has twofold effect in the ME:

a) CAM's (or any player in central corridor) has no secure passing options since advanced players are marked out due to lack of movement

b) the only safe option is wide

 

51 minuti fa, Tom8983 ha scritto:

I proved that wrong by showing that it's possible

You didn't really as 4 out of five assists by your CAM are during counter attacks and/or transitions. Only one was against a set-up defense. And even that one ended with a long shot.

[westy8chimp]

41 minutes ago, Mons said:

If DDG has a CA of, say, 180, and a part-time GK has a CA of, say, 30 - is that not a massive difference? Would that massive difference not be displayed in the respective player attribute spread using the current system? And reflected in the ME accordingly?

 

What's so wrong with it then?

Go find a league two or conference goalkeeper... Highlight important attributes... Probably has circa 10/11 for reach, agility, communication... Then check DDG... More like 16/17 

It's not big enough gap when you think how much better ddg is compare to some gk in the same divisions let alone championship... League 1 league 2...

Go watch a conference game and count the number of times the full backs shank a simple clearance out for a throw... Or lump an aimless ball to the opponent gk when there is simple pass on... Telling me a Tranmere lb should have 10/11 in passing/crossing when some very experienced Premier league campaigners have just 12/13 and the best in the world have 14/15/16

I think the range should be bigger to allow for more drastic difference

[Mons]

33 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Go find a league two or conference goalkeeper... Highlight important attributes... Probably has circa 10/11 for reach, agility, communication... Then check DDG... More like 16/17 

It's not big enough gap when you think how much better ddg is compare to some gk in the same divisions let alone championship... League 1 league 2...

Go watch a conference game and count the number of times the full backs shank a simple clearance out for a throw... Or lump an aimless ball to the opponent gk when there is simple pass on... Telling me a Tranmere lb should have 10/11 in passing/crossing when some very experienced Premier league campaigners have just 12/13 and the best in the world have 14/15/16

I think the range should be bigger to allow for more drastic difference

It's the cumulative effect of the attribute spread which makes DDG such a good keeper. He's more "complete" and is good at all the goalkeeping attributes; actually he's very good in most and excellent in some of them.

Spoiler

 

Compare him with 3 first-choice goalkeepers chosen from random low-half-predicted League 2 teams in my save.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Out of those 3, the latter's 1-on-1 attribute is the only important one which is within at least 2 of DDG's. I don't see much wrong in that.

 

By definition, the best passer and crossers in the world should have 20. A solid Premier League player would have 14/15/16 if he's a good crosser. That said, it's not impossible for a lower-league player to have the ability to deliver a good cross. What will make him different than a Premier League is his movement to be in the right place to deliver it, the decision-making attributes to deliver it at the right time, the stamina to be in the right place, his composure to deliver it when under pressure, his vision to see the striker's run etc. etc. Attributes should not be considered in isolation but combined with others. The examples you mention are a perfect example imo. Maybe the full back is tired, maybe his technique is not good enough, maybe he was under pressure

FYI, these are the attributes of Tranmere's left-back:

Spoiler

And these are Luke Shaw's:

Spoiler

 

Sure, they may be at the same level crossing attribute-wise - but put the former in the latter's position and he certainly won't be in a position to deliver the identical amount of quality crosses that the latter would.

[westy8chimp]

1 minute ago, Mons said:

It's the cumulative effect of the attribute spread which makes DDG such a good keeper. He's more "complete" and is good at all the goalkeeping attributes; actually he's very good in most and excellent in some of them.

 

Compare him with 3 first-choice goalkeepers chosen from random low-half-predicted League 2 teams in my save.

 

By definition, the best passer and crossers in the world should have 20. A solid Premier League player would have 14/15/16 if he's a good crosser. That said, it's not impossible for a lower-league player to have the ability to deliver a good cross. What will make him different than a Premier League is his movement to be in the right place to deliver it, the decision-making attributes to deliver it at the right time, the stamina to be in the right place, his composure to deliver it when under pressure, his vision to see the striker's run etc. etc. Attributes should not be considered in isolation but combined with others. The examples you mention are a perfect example imo. Maybe the full back is tired, maybe his technique is not good enough, maybe he was under pressure

FYI, these are the attributes of Tranmere's left-back:

And these are Luke Shaw's:

 

Sure, they may be at the same level crossing attribute-wise - but put the former in the latter's position and he certainly won't be in a position to deliver the identical amount of quality crosses that the latter would.

Still not enough difference... Proven that I can produce a brand of football with say City... Drop exact tactic into conference and not see much difference. The attributes don't have enough sway and aren't different enough....imo

[Mensell76]

On 14/11/2018 at 15:56, themadsheep2001 said:

If you want to know why SI don't hand out more information, it's because they would end up wasting hours having to needlessly justify themselves to people who don't really understand what they do, when they could just get on with it. 

 

3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

And the bold simply isn't true. I said they cannot always have time, or be able to explain inner workings and they will where they can, like he did earlier.

What you do is up to you, but I would say the next time one asks "why don't SI engage more?" to bear this in mind

I must have understood your first statement wrong then, since it does seem to say that according to you SI won't release more info since we don't really understand what they do. 

I am playing by your rules. We don't get any insightful information, totally fine, seriously, but the result is of course that we solely base judgement and feedback on using our eyes which actually again should be all that SI can expect from its uneducated customers.

It is within the perimeters that SI and you are making us play. Therefore I find it remarkable how much you scold on the critics on here.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Mensell76

[Mons]

1 minute ago, westy8chimp said:

Still not enough difference... Proven that I can produce a brand of football with say City... Drop exact tactic into conference and not see much difference. The attributes don't have enough sway and aren't different enough....imo

I edited my original post to include spoilers on the images. Perhaps you may wish to do so too to avoid cluttering the thread  

 

Ah, but that's an entirely different matter now though. That then becomes a match engine issue, rather than an attribute issue, which is a completely different argument. Apologies if I'm not aware of your post history, but I was under the impression that your argument was related to attribute spread rather than match engine representation.

 

Nonetheless, I'm not entirely convinced that using the exact same tactic in different divisions produces the same results. I would need some proof before agreeing it's as big an issue as you make it out to be.

[westy8chimp]

1 minute ago, Mons said:

would need some proof before agreeing it's as big an issue as you make it out to be.

It is attributes because giving a conference player 10 in crossing and an epl player 10 in crossing isn't ever going to create vastly different quality of crossing is it? I do take your point that it's not just one attribute at play... But that's why I stated even 10 (aka 1) for any given attribute isn't worse enough compare to 200 (20) to give me a true difference between the worlds best vs the worlds worst. Especially as I don't think any player has 20 for every attribute or 1. So comparing Messi to the worst player on the game... As an average attribute is more like 30 vs 170....there are so many level of player that have to fit between as well. 

The calculations would have more impact the bigger that gap was... So would translate to different player ability within the ME. So if I have a load of players at City with say 1000 or 10,000 for passing (and other relevant attributes) and I build a high tempo short vertical game... And drop that into tier 21 with players who have 10 for passing (etc) .. I should see much more interceptions by opposition, miss placed passes, poor decisions to panic and clear instead of having composure to pick a pass... Poor touch to receive a pass etc. 

That's why IRL the lower down you go to watch a game... The less moves you will see with short consecutive passes. It's one pass two pass... Clear or tackle or turnover. So you get a DNA of simple formations, physical players and an end to end slug fest. 

[Burnley92]

I've played 8 matches so far on the new patch and apart from a few too many long range goals I'm really liking it 

 

Although my first match was my team Luton against Hull and it ended 5-2 to me. Both of Hull's goals were own goals, they also conceded an own goal, I had 2 players sent off, they had 1 player sent off and I scored a penalty. It was a crazy match but I suspect it wasn't too much to do with the new patch, just one of those freak matches! 

 

Ps. Some people need to seriously re-evaluate their way of thinking. SI do a great job every year. What they do isn't easy and they will never be able to please everybody. Some of the comments I've read have been ridiculous. If you have a complaint that's fair enough but at least be constructive with it and not just pluck 'facts' from thin air.

[themadsheep2001]

31 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

 

I must have understood your first statement wrong then, since it does seem to say that according to you SI won't release more info since we don't really understand what they do. 

I am playing by your rules. We don't get any insightful information, totally fine, seriously, but the result is of course that we solely base judgement and feedback on using our eyes which actually again should be all that SI can expect from its uneducated customers.

It is within the perimeters that SI and you are making us play. Therefore I find it remarkable how much you scold on the critics on here.

 

31 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

 

I must have understood your first statement wrong then, since it does seem to say that according to you SI won't release more info since we don't really understand what they do. 

I am playing by your rules. We don't get any insightful information, totally fine, seriously, but the result is of course that we solely base judgement and feedback on using our eyes which actually again should be all that SI can expect from its uneducated customers.

It is within the perimeters that SI and you are making us play. Therefore I find it remarkable how much you scold on the critics on here.

You know full well that was in regards to why they don't constantly hand out more information, in exactly the scenario as today. They give you information, and it's argued against anyway. Yes you don't get always more information, but when it's actually given to you, like Neil did, to dismiss is odd. Like today. Rather than dialogue, you're more concerned with turning everything into a battle and for the life of me I don't understand why 

[Tony Wright 747]

20 hours ago, Vali184 said:

What do you guys recommend playing until March between FM15, FM16, FM17 and FM18?

FM16 or 17

[themadsheep2001]

3 hours ago, bleventozturk said:

As I said before, when you just watch the goals from several matches back to back, it is easy to see that something is off. Having said that, I decided to watch a few games in extended highlights, and I have to say that surprisingly I now agree with Neil Brock's statement that this is the most balanced ME ever. Apart from the choices made in the final third, the ME looks better than ever. The more you play, the more it grows on me. 

There is enormous potential with this ME in my opinion, if they can bring balance to the choices made by the players in the final third. No, I don't expect many successful through balls against established defenses, BUT I do expect attempts. Currently the central players are very heavily inclined to pass the ball to wider areas unless there is no resistance in front of them at the central areas. And when there is no resistance, most of the time they prefer to dribble a little and take a long range shot, rather than looking for a through ball. It should also be pointed out that playing the ball wide for a cross is easier than attempting a through ball, but that is followed by a cross eventually, and the average cross completion rate in football is not high enough in general to make it a 'much preferred' choice over an attempt for through ball. 

So there should definitely be more through ball ATTEMPTS, most of which should be picked up by the defenders or the GK of course. We almost never see those in this ME.

The subject of the importance of attributes is one that always bothered me in FM games. Of course we have to take Neil's word on this, but it never passes the eye test for me. To me it looks like the player roles you pick has a WAY more affect on how a player looks like in the ME, than his attributes. I made countless experiments on this several years ago, where I plugged in the worst players from my U18 teams instead of my star players, and within the system of the team they look almost identical. Again, based on eye test. I am sure more is happening under the hood of the ME.

 

There needs to be more attempts at forward passing overall. Only slightly more on through balls based on what little stats I've seen. I conjuction, offensive players need to be on the half turn more. Solve that and you're virtually there. 

[Gegenklaus]

2 hours ago, Tom8983 said:

Oh yes, of course you can see that through the three seconds of video you get before the goal. Clearly some are counter attacks, but I'll say again because I actually saw the matches so I know it for a fact, at least two of those goals were from sustained attacks. You don't know more about my game than I do, so less of that nonsense please.

You might not have said that you expected through balls against a deep compact defence, but I didn't start my comments talking to you. It was a general point, and I've certainly seen people asking for such. Though my initial post wasn't even about through balls, it was about people complaining that they can't get a player playing in the CAM position to have any influence on matches, getting assists or even passing in and around the box. I proved that wrong by showing that it's possible, then people unable to stop moaning or admit that they're wrong decided to change the argument to "yea but they weren't all through balls waaaaaa". I never claimed they were. But some were, and they were pretty sweet. Then, with some people once more being unable to accept their own failings, they're now changing the argument once more to "oh but none of those clips had you camped outside their box for half an hour before you played what I consider to be a good enough through ball waaah wwaaaaahh wah". Give it a rest. (That last bit *was* aimed at you.)

You say "right now you can't make your number 10 your main goal threat". Well that's an entirely different argument. I'm arguing that your number 10, when played in a CAM role, can be your main play maker.

I am sorry if you see my post as an attack on you or me trying to come off as smart or something or that I know the game better than you - I most certainly do not. I am also sorry that I misunderstood the purpose of your videos or what you set out to show. My comments were more about the lack of central movement and your videos showed that the number 10 can be effective during quick transitions and thats cool too. I am not some crybaby (the whole "waaa not a through ball"-stuff you wrote) as I have already stated that FM19 got the potential to be the best game in the series by far in my opinion. And it's not about me crying that my tactics are failing and I am losing every match because of the match engine - that's not the case at all. And its not about "good enough through balls and all that "waaah, waaahh" or I want the game to be exactly like this and that. It's not me against you. It's not a competition. It's a dialogue about the game, the positive and the bad. There are a lot of positive stuff about FM19. But also bad as I see it because the lack of striker movements or whatever it is limits the game. That's all I am saying.